I honestly don't see a need to make a new name for something that is fundamentally the same thing. A squad's a squad's a squad's a squad.

Just don't allow one with more than 6 people join a pub.

If you think I am thrilled by this, then you are mistaken. However, this is the way the wind is blowing. Instead of obstructing the process, I plan on brokering the most equitable outcome I can for all interested parties.

The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW.

Why not just auto squad everyone that joins a battle and as default have voice comms on? I'm sorry but, lowering squad size will not stop proto stomps. Just have players auto squadded would help, especially if there was a deploy screen showing squads like there was in MAG.

Its extremley frustrating seeing a good chunk of what makes dust fun is being tossed out for no good reason at all. Certainly not for matchmaking.


Are the Devs trying to convince people to run PC? Sure Pc is being reworked right now, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Its still the least popular game mode, any tradeoff that affects every player of Dust for a fringe minority is bad one.


FW? Why do i want to run a game mode exactly the same as a pub skirmish that doesn't pay in Isk. Last time i checked there are no Assault Dropships in the loyalty store.


Dust 514 is still a lobby shooter. Login, squad with friends, pick a game mode, play some matches, log off.
To keep the same social/cooperative level we have now, either wait 24hrs, accomadate each person's racial faction, or que sync two squads. people are complaining one squad of 6 is killing the game, yet want to encourage two squads of eight....

Its one of the worst ideas I have ever seen. For the devs to think its a good one, well its disheartening, shows a true lack of understanding of anything to do with Dust. Which is players enjoy the company of other players, teamwork and what that brings to table. Theres no story mode here, there is no PvE, its literaaly just the experinces that the players make together. So why wound it?

As stated before, I am not against reducing squad size to 4.
I actually think it's a good idea, provided larger groups have somewhere to go with the Platoon (8) or Battleforce (16) options.

As far as I see it, we want to acheve the following goals:
- Make it easier for the matchmaker and team builder to work efficiently.
- Reduce the effects of Pub-stomps (large coordinated squads vs random blueberries)
- Still allow larger groups to enjoy the game without kicking half the team to squeeze into a squad of 4.

So, here is a modified proposal for Pubs which I think will cover the above points.
- Squads (4) gets matched against other squads (pref) and solo players.
- Platoons (8) gets matched against other Platoons (pref) and Squads (4), but no solo players.
- Battleforces (16) get matched against Battleforces (pref) and Platoons, but no Squads or solo players.

So, the larger group you form, the larger opposition (groups) you will face. I suspect new players usually play solo or in small squads before they find a good corp, so in the above scenario they will never meet opposition greater than squads of 4.
Vets with lots of friends can still enjoy grouping up together with the larger Platoon group size of 8. Big corps wanting to challenge other corps for a 16 vs 16 game can "easily" que-sync and get a private corp battle.

Since the team size of 16 can be evenly divided by all group sizes, I beleve the matchmaker will have an easier time grouping everybody together.

The smaller squad sizes just kill the teamwork already established, I could see smaller squad sizes being ok only if people were having wait issues because there are no slots in a team to join due to everyone being in a squad of 6 all the time but this is far from true. In fact the vast majority of people I see in game are running without a squad and sometimes even without the foggiest idea about what makes a team or what an OB is until it slaps them all over the forehead.

My thought on this are simple.

If you think this will actually help the game then go for it.

If this is just yet another band aid fix in an attempt to stomp whining about matchmaking the STOP IT AND FIX match making.



Personally I think squads of 4 in pubs are a terrible idea. What we actually need is match size increased to 18 on both sides so that 3 squads of 6 can fit into a match. I feel like this would have a surprisingly positive affect because it would allow 6 of the proto squads attempting to stomp to be crammed into a match of their own instead of a new match being made for 2 of them and filling it up with randoms that get dumped on.

Its extremley frustrating seeing a good chunk of what makes dust fun is being tossed out for no good reason at all. Certainly not for matchmaking.


Are the Devs trying to convince people to run PC? Sure Pc is being reworked right now, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Its still the least popular game mode, any tradeoff that affects every player of Dust for a fringe minority is bad one.


FW? Why do i want to run a game mode exactly the same as a pub skirmish that doesn't pay in Isk. Last time i checked there are no Assault Dropships in the loyalty store.


Dust 514 is still a lobby shooter. Login, squad with friends, pick a game mode, play some matches, log off.
To keep the same social/cooperative level we have now, either wait 24hrs, accomadate each person's racial faction, or que sync two squads. people are complaining one squad of 6 is killing the game, yet want to encourage two squads of eight....

Its one of the worst ideas I have ever seen. For the devs to think its a good one, well its disheartening, shows a true lack of understanding of anything to do with Dust. Which is players enjoy the company of other players, teamwork and what that brings to table. Theres no story mode here, there is no PvE, its literaaly just the experinces that the players make together. So why wound it?

I think it [the 4 man squad] is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping

Tell you what, how about instead of getting 5 of your friends together to run squads only pick up 3 or 4 others to run with, see if it makes a difference.

I could go for increasing team size to 18, but as stated by CCP Rattati it will have a cost of performance. Regardless how you do it, I think it's importaint that the available squad sizes can fit evenly into the team.

But, I would prefer to have more options of squad sizes.

Maybe if they drop the rendering of objects that are 500m into the redline we could fit 4 more people into battle.

That is just a thought that will be buried bu CCP scrambling to slap on more band aids that only push the game further into disarray. It is actions exactly like this which have led to myself and many others giving up on Dust. So many problems have been caused by band aid fixes like this one that is being proposed that it has led to an absolutely horrible experience.

I can give many examples of band aids like this being applied but can only think of a few things that actually seemed to get FIXED. Hell just make match size in pubs 6 versus 6 so there is no lag and proto squads can be paired against proto squads. PROBLEM SOLVED.

I am honestly not sure what your point is?
Are you implying it's less fun? More difficult? No difference?

What if you could invite 7 other friends instead of 5?

If you think I am thrilled by this, then you are mistaken. However, this is the way the wind is blowing. Instead of obstructing the process, I plan on brokering the most equitable outcome I can for all interested parties.

Just because I have proto gear doesn't mean I want to use it...I am not isk wealthy by any means, I instead attempt to be isk efficient.

Because no. That's why.

Punishing peoplefor having the audacity of making online friendships is dumbass.

Making modes that reward team play better than pubstomping will solve most of the issue.

Im starting to think that you arent even reading anything ANYONE has written and you are just ranting and ranting that "well I cant play the game with people ive been playing with for years"

For the sake of having a decent conversation, can you stop repeating that lie? 8 and 16 man squads means youll have even more friends.

Sirmanboy is trying to work out a deal where 8 and 16 man squads could deploy in Public contracts, as long as they are deployed against another pair of 8 man squads or a 16 man squad. So that you and your friends can till queue together for a public dom/ambush/skim.

Everyone is trying to compromise to make sure that new/causal players have somewhere to play, squads have somewhere to play, corps have somewhere to play, ect.

But you arent listening to ANY of this. You just keep repeating that the game is ruined because you cant deploy with 5 other people against an unorganized team of casual players.

The game is going in a very simple direction is going to benefit everyone: If you want to take it easy and play casually, Public is going to be made more friendly. If you like to play team focused and play to win, Faction Warfare is being ramped up and compromises might be made for deploys in Public.

The only people who lose here are people who were counting on running into a team of new players for their success, or people in squads who always get carried, and know they might not make the 4 man cut for the squad, and they aren't good enough to survive in any other mode except by being carried in public. Yeah, its going to be rough for them.



So do us all a favor, go pour yourself a coffee, take a smoke break if you smoke (chew some gum if you dont), and then read through this thread carefully. Youll see that alot of your concerns (No ISK for FW? Should have read the 10 posts from Rattati on mutiple threads about it) have already been looked at and will be part of the consideration for changing squad sizes and restrictions.

I feel that this is an acceptable, albeit imperfect proposition in the short-term, but the ideal long-term solution needs to include a way for 8 and 16-man units to play ambush and dom matches as well. But yes, no one is standing in the way of this, especially when it has the potential to finally give us an outlet for perpetual team deployments.

@ Tesfa Alem

I cannot prove (nor is it my function to prove) whether or not a relationship exists between pubstomps and stompsquads. That doesn't mean that stompsquads aren't stomping matches; nor does it mean that proof does not exist. We know that pertinent match details are stored server-side. Let's assume you and I were somehow able to access that data. If we were to analyze a sample of stomped matches, do you think we (you and I) would find evidence of a relationship between pubstomps and stompsquads? Or do you suspect we'd find proof to the contrary, namely, that no relationship whatsoever exists?

In which of these cases do you think it more likely we would return from our analysis thinking aloud:

You ought to get Reading comprehension up to at least level 3. Sir man boy has alread accepted 4 man squad only for pubs.

I think we can solve this whole issue by allowing battleforces to queue into pub matches provided that they can only launch against another battleforce. Teams could coordinate their queues accordingly in channels thus making the situation fairly efficient. This also allows large groupings of players to enjoy all of the match types afforded to everyone else without adding other match types to FW.

It might also be worth considering an option in settings that allows players to check whether or not they would be willing to act as auxiliary members of a battleforce that they are themselves not a part of. There are some solo players who would find this appealing and it would also help battleforces fill the gaps when they don't have exactly 16 players.

You guys have me close to sold on 4-man squads in pubs provided that we find a solution that allows larger groups to enjoy the same match variety as everyone else, but if we're going down the road of making pubs more friendly to solo players, new players, etc., then I see no reason to go out of the way to protect people in FW.

Its not a comprimise at all, we can already seperate new players from vets via the academy by a standard metric, toal WP earned. Why not stagger that metric? Seperate players by every 100,000 warpoints, then you give everybody somewhere to go, and keep the vets with the vets, causuals with the casuals, and noobs with the noobs.

Instead, we will continue to throw new players to wolves straight out of the academy, and trading my friends because scoty's incompetence is a no- go.

Then I would...I am an advocate for larger team sizes, bigger battles more gore, more ragdoll, a market that functions exactly the same as the Eve market, true Open World gameplay, PVE missions involving shooting things not people, Opening the stations so we can walk around and murder each other in our quarters, Merc transports through New Eden and having CCP complete their ideas in a manner that works better rather than creating more problems every time something gets fixed. But this is a lot to be interested in, how about more fun with more peeps.

Get out.

I pick my squads, I don't get shoved into squads with some random twit.

And God help the universe if I get shoved into a squad with a few of you.

I'd spend the first part of the match insuring I would never have to hear your voices again.

Because, (again covered), the playerbase is too small to split up by meta or tier level. If you start tirering people by WP or SP, its going to stretch the playerbase to the point that there will be alot of matches with incomplete teams.

The reason this is a viable matchmaking aid is because it helps spread out the vet players over both teams. Its easier to place vets in blocks of 4 into a situation where they will be opposing eachother instead of all on the same team. 6 man groups, the SP is too concentrated. This dilutes it across both teams.

As for your friends, you can 8 man squad with them, you can 16 man squad with them, you can hang out in a channel, you can skype eachother, you can text and call eachother, email eachother, send chainmail to eachother. So how exactly are you trading your friends in? Where are the burned bridges? Just because you cant deploy with exactly 6 people in the exact mode you want with the exact conditions you want....you wont have any friends? That doesn't make any sense.

But anyway, I doubt you care or that youll take the time to read. You just want your entitlement, and everyone else be damned.