DUST Search - [Suggestion] Reduce Squad Size

Regis Blackbird wrote:

DJINN Jecture wrote:

Regis Blackbird wrote:

DJINN Jecture wrote:

Tell you what, how about instead of getting 5 of your friends together to run squads only pick up 3 or 4 others to run with, see if it makes a difference.

I am honestly not sure what your point is?
Are you implying it's less fun? More difficult? No difference?

What if you could invite 7 other friends instead of 5?

Then I would...I am an advocate for larger team sizes, bigger battles more gore, more ragdoll, a market that functions exactly the same as the Eve market, true Open World gameplay, PVE missions involving shooting things not people, Opening the stations so we can walk around and murder each other in our quarters, Merc transports through New Eden and having CCP complete their ideas in a manner that works better rather than creating more problems every time something gets fixed. But this is a lot to be interested in, how about more fun with more peeps.

Then Sir, we are in total agreement Big smile

(One can dream, right?)
+1

As you can see from my previous posts, I agree to a reduction of squad size to 4 IF Platoons (8) and Battleforces (16) have access to all modes (Pubs & FW). This is doable by arranging how each group size is matched against eachother, as per my previous proposal. Question is how difficult it would be to implement, if even possible.

Is it the golden bullet which will end pub stomps overnight? Absolutley not.
Will it give more options to players to play the game on their terms? Yes
Will it give small squads and solo players a break from large organized squads? Yes
Will it help the matchmaker to balance the matches? I honestly think so.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 1963	Posted - 2015.01.19 12:11:00 - [271] - Quote I would dig squad sizes being reduced to 4 or 5 as long as an increase of players per machine say 20 a side also accompanys this Proud Caldari purist . Rank 10 colonel omiwarrior. I fought and bled for the State on Caldari prime.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 567	Posted - 2015.01.19 13:22:00 - [272] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: If 6 man squads are too OP for pubs, how will 8 man squads be balanced for FW? Should they be balanced in FW? If we have four options: Solo, Squad, Platoon and Battleforce, and the likelihood of winning is greater the larger group you have, what do you think people who want to be successful in FW will do? Band together and form larger groups. As it should be IMHO. (At least then we don't have to endure the 6 + 6 + 4 Q-sync mess. I would just find the appropriate Platoon or Battleforce and go) Tesfa Alem wrote: If 6 man squads are too OP for pubs, how is encouraging two Q-synced squads of 8 to compensate going to balanced for pubs? By making sure a Platoon can never face Solo and small Squads, just other Platoons or Battleforces.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1819	Posted - 2015.01.19 13:43:00 - [273] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: 1. If you can't prove it [stompsquads stomp matches] dont claim it. 2. To answer your question, Since stomping is about High SP vs Low SP I'd work on breaking that up first. The first thought in my mind seeing squads of 40 million SP players fighting 5 million SP players is "what are they doing paired against each other?" rather than "Since players have figured out running in a squad improves the odds of winning, lets reduce the squad numbers for everyone and leave the 40 million SP vets against the 5 million SP players" 1. When did it become a prerequisite to back one's observations with scientific proof? It is the job of the forum-savvy player to report patterns observed in battle; more often than not, the more overt patterns are found to be substantive. Take, for example, "the post 1.7 HAV is a wee-tad too good" or "the post 1.8 Scout is out-assaulting the Assault". Such observations weren't backed by statistically significant samples, but they were nonetheless based in fact. These observations are no different from "pubstomps are a wee-tad too common". 2. "The reason this is a viable matchmaking aid is because it helps spread out the vet players over both teams. Its easier to place vets in blocks of 4 into a situation where they will be opposing each other instead of all on the same team. 6 man groups, the SP is too concentrated. This dilutes it across both teams." - Regis Blackbird
Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 683	Posted - 2015.01.19 13:58:00 - [274] - Quote Yet they want 8 man squads for FW. Meaning squads can stomp a lot easier in FW. Squads size isn't the problem.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1820	Posted - 2015.01.19 14:12:00 - [275] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Yet they want 8 man squads for FW. Meaning squads can stomp a lot easier in FW. Squads size isn't the problem. The gloves come off in FW and PC. For a more casual experience, queue for a public contract. Public Contract: * Matchmaking gives a best effort at evenly-sided teams * Odds of win:loss are near 50:50; odds of stomp are minimized * Ideal for the soloist or small squad FW / PC: * Matchmaking plays little, if any, role * Odds of win:loss or stomp are determined solely by participants * Supports squads up to 8 and/or team deploy * Interact with and impact the greater Eve universe
Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 683	Posted - 2015.01.19 14:23:00 - [276] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Yet they want 8 man squads for FW. Meaning squads can stomp a lot easier in FW. Squads size isn't the problem. The gloves come off in FW and PC. For a more casual experience, queue for a public contract. Public Contract: * Matchmaking gives a best effort at evenly-sided teams * Odds of win:loss are near 50:50; odds of stomp are minimized * Ideal for the soloist or small squad FW / PC: * Matchmaking plays little, if any, role * Odds of win:loss or stomp are determined solely by participants * Supports squads up to 8 and/or team deploy * Interact with and impact the greater Eve universe Or teach people to squad up/auto squad them and have voice active by default. Why relegate pub matches to nothing more than a casual environment? Not everyone likes FW, and this idea stops people from playing with people they know just because matchmaking is crap. Fix matchmaking or add meta level matches. Then we'll see if its squad size that is a problem.
LAVALLOIS Nash 455	Posted - 2015.01.19 15:51:00 - [277] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Entitlement would infer I have acess to something which nobody else does. Everybody from zero SP and up has the ability to form squads, to find other people in the squad finder, and to join open squads. A lot of corp recruitment is done via squadfinder. My ability to use the same tools equally open to every one in the game from the academy on up is not restrictive. That would be true if you were using milita gear instead of Six kin rifles. Its not just about using squad finder. It about all that SP being stacked in one area. A bunch of new players making a squad with themselves wont be able to stack as much SP and thus, will be put at a disadvantage. What we want is to reduce the concentrate of SP in casual pubs, and increase it in the other modes. Because you want to maintain a status quo that is harmful to the game, and you want to continue to stack SP in squads unfairly, yeah, im going to go ahead and call that an entitlement. Tesfa Alem wrote: Friendships are built in game by running with players in a squad. I log into dust to squad up with my friends, or i squad up to make new ones, I don't as you put it " skype each other, you can text and call eachother, email each other, send chainmail to each other " or do everything but play Dust 514 with them when I log on to play Dust Ah, so now the truth comes out. About time. For several posts you were implying that your strong friendships and people you see everyday would be broken. Yet, according to what you just said, some days you dont even have 6 of your friends online, and run a public squad of randoms looking for more friends. And the point I made by listing alternative communications was simply to point out that if you had friends, something like a change to a game mode shouldn't impact that. There is a difference between friends and "people I play pub matches with". Friendships last. Relationships of convenience do not. So how exactly would you be "trading in my friends" when some of them arent even logged in that day? Echo 1991 wrote: Or teach people to squad up/auto squad them and have voice active by default. Why relegate pub matches to nothing more than a casual environment? Not everyone likes FW, and this idea stops people from playing with people they know just because matchmaking is crap. Fix matchmaking or add meta level matches. Then we'll see if its squad size that is a problem. Faction Warfare is supposed to be rough. Its supposed to be a harder mode. Its supposed to be the "next step". Public matches are supposed to be casual because its the only place new and casual players have to play. Why are casual players important? Healthy playerbase. When they dont get stomped, they have fun. When they have fun, they keep coming back. When they keep coming back, the game is more active at all times. When the game is more active at all times, corps have more people to recruit. And when corps have more people to recruit, players invest more. When players invest more, they buy AUR to take it to the next level. Annnnnnnd......when players buy AUR, the game stays online and the development continues. This is not a 65$ triple A title. Its what we call "entry level", as it targets the lowest price bracket. Entry level games needs an entry level game mode. If you want people to take this game up and climb to the next level, you have to give them a reasonable ladder. Public matches (For lone mercs for small squads, per the description) is supposed to be a dead end game mode. Its for some practice, listening to some music, taking it easy, trying some new gear. If you want to play Public like its a serious mode, youll have to use the Battle force vs Battleforce, or move to FW. Its not my fault you were focused on a mode that was never meant to be a serious mode.
Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 685	Posted - 2015.01.19 16:08:00 - [278] - Quote And you're focusing on game modes that not everyone plays. Everyone plays public matches. Especially those that need to make isk. Unless missions are added (not these silly daily missions) that are for different NPCs so I can make isk without needing to play PC or a pub match then I wouldn't play pubs. I remember when squad size was at 4, pub stomps happened all the time then. Its not gonna change now.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 716	Posted - 2015.01.19 16:16:00 - [279] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: If 6 man squads are too OP for pubs, how will 8 man squads be balanced for FW? Should they be balanced in FW? If we have four options: Solo, Squad, Platoon and Battleforce, and the likelihood of winning is greater the larger group you have, what do you think people who want to be successful in FW will do? Band together and form larger groups. As it should be IMHO. (At least then we don't have to endure the 6 + 6 + 4 Q-sync mess. I would just find the appropriate Platoon or Battleforce and go) Tesfa Alem wrote: If 6 man squads are too OP for pubs, how is encouraging two Q-synced squads of 8 to compensate going to balanced for pubs? By making sure a Platoon can never face Solo and small Squads, just other Platoons or Battleforces. Actually this variation of the idea i like. I would much rather keep orgainized groups vs other organized groupsin the game mode of preference, rather than restricting current normal gameplay to the barren wastes of FW and PC. More organization leads to better matches, not less. On the side topic of auto squads, it is a feature i have seen regularly in War Thunder. It's hit and miss, it doesn't stop random players from doing random things, but there are higher rewards for keeping close to your assigned squad mate than flying off alone. I tend to fly close enough to get the extra points whenever he/she scores a kill and vice versa. It certainly couldn't hurt Dust, especially if we introduce a teamwork bonus for WP to incentivize people to stick close together at least for the duration of the match. Mute them or turn squad chat off who cares? You can work together without comms, or just run solo. You're not tied to the squad (i.e didn't LFS or ask for an invite) so you do can still do what you will. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Petra 222 SoM Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 34	Posted - 2015.01.20 01:32:00 - [280] - Quote I am on the, no to smaller squads, side. less friends, less fun for many players that only stick around for the social aspect and friends in game. I fear this would push many of my friends to play even less. if we could have some sort of proper matchmaking we would need to put more limitations on player choice and experience. I am not not well versed on this subject but it seems like this is only trying to fix a symptom of a larger problem.

DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 214	Posted - 2015.01.20 03:53:00 - [281] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Tell you what, how about instead of getting 5 of your friends together to run squads only pick up 3 or 4 others to run with, see if it makes a difference. I am honestly not sure what your point is? Are you implying it's less fun? More difficult? No difference? What if you could invite 7 other friends instead of 5? Then I would...I am an advocate for larger team sizes, bigger battles more gore, more ragdoll, a market that functions exactly the same as the Eve market, true Open World gameplay, PVE missions involving shooting things not people, Opening the stations so we can walk around and murder each other in our quarters, Merc transports through New Eden and having CCP complete their ideas in a manner that works better rather than creating more problems every time something gets fixed. But this is a lot to be interested in, how about more fun with more peeps. Then Sir, we are in total agreement (One can dream, right?) +1 As you can see from my previous posts, I agree to a reduction of squad size to 4 IF Platoons (8) and Battleforces (16) have access to all modes (Pubs & FW). This is doable by arranging how each group size is matched against eachother, as per my previous proposal. Question is how difficult it would be to implement, if even possible. Is it the golden bullet which will end pub stomps overnight? Absolutley not. Will it give more options to players to play the game on their terms? Yes Will it give small squads and solo players a break from large organized squads? Yes Will it help the matchmaker to balance the matches? I honestly think so. I realize this but have seen how incomplete a 4 man squad truly from the Closed Beta and how much better a squad of 6 is able to survive even if the rest of the team is sitting in the red line wondering what to do because it's their first ever match and they still are unsure at what range their guns are effective. For instance COD players would expect next to unlimited range on their guns while a vet would know that for the most part you gotta close on your enemy to kill them. The increased amount of support a 6 man squad can give to each other is far more robust than the 4 man squad and thus stands a better chance of survival, even in PC battles. In fact I have been in PC Battles where squads were made up of 4 man teams and invariably they have been hard pressed to last longer than the first 2 merc going down. There is less room for the specializing that makes Dust great. More general suits benefit the squads more resulting in less logi, less dps, less scouting and less suppression fire simply. This also means that overall the teams would have to bee better planned with more pre battle role based decisions made to ensure all roles needed are covered. Sure you have the same number of team mates but in a pub crawl you get your squad set up so all roles are covered to maximize your efficiency, the team has no control over who joins or leaves and no time to discuss beforehand as we had when Pub Matches had a warbarge before deploying to the field. When CCP described this game on launch (if I remember correctly) they described it as a tactical mmo fps which to me says the strongest tactic wins. If we take tactics out of it we may as well just go play BF4 or COD of whatever flavor because those games have been through the grinder and can do a good online MMO fps from a run and gun perspective. I like the fact that planning gives you options, strategy victory. Not just having the best twitch reaction to a flicker on your screen. From all I have said you may notice that I specifically did not say I am against 4 man squads, in fact they may do great as part of a platoon, I advocated for larger groupings to allow for more varied tactics to be used in pub matches. I personally would rather group up in 2-4 man squads and deploy as a platoon rather than deploy as 2 six man squads q-synching and end up shooting at my bros. If that means 8 man squads or platoons either way is perfectly acceptable but I honestly believe there should not be a limit on squad size other than max team size and that there shouldn't be a max team size either. I know right, obviously this would require a lot of work from CCP to fix the way the game works, and in addition to that to build levels big enough and optimized enough that render wouldn't be an issue. This is not what the OP is about though, its about 4/6/8 man squads, not platoons, not open team sizes (could be a worse pub stomp based on numbers than anyone has seen before) but I maintain in the current for 4 man squads are just opening up Dust to more complaints about pub stomps not less. *Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*
E-Rock Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 43	Posted - 2015.01.20 07:41:00 - [282] - Quote PLEASE DON"T NERF SQUAD SIZES!!!!! PLEEEEEEAAAAAAAASE. I'LL GIVE YOU 100 MILLION ISK. The Japanese players call "hate mail", "fan mail".pÇÇµùÑµ£¼F¬PsñºS+êsñ½ -Founder of CKC and UCKC -Molon Labe
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1838	Posted - 2015.01.20 15:00:00 - [283] - Quote Quote: 4 man squads from Closed Beta Dust has changed since we last saw 4 man squads. The players have also changed. In Closed Beta, a seasoned merc may have had an SP headstart on a newbro of 1M SP; the combined SP gap of this veteran's "stompsquad" would have been a maximum of 4-5M SP over that of a newbro or newbro squad. Today, that gap can quite literally reach into the 100s of millions. If we think of this SP gap in terms of weight, today's stompsquads are both larger and many times heavier than yesterday's.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1024	Posted - 2015.01.20 15:58:00 - [284] - Quote @Rattati Is this something that might happen in 2 months or longer? I need to know if I should buy more rubber bands for AFKing the proto stomps in pubs If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1839	Posted - 2015.01.20 16:13:00 - [285] - Quote voidfaction wrote: derp Looks like you'll be needing more than rubber bands: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=187538&find=unread
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1024	Posted - 2015.01.20 16:34:00 - [286] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: voidfaction wrote: derp Looks like you'll be needing more than rubber bands: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=187538&find=unread I have a BPO logi so I will only need to play long enough to drop some uplinks. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 214	Posted - 2015.01.20 18:08:00 - [287] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Quote: 4 man squads from Closed Beta Dust has changed since we last saw 4 man squads. The players have also changed. In Closed Beta, a seasoned merc may have had an SP headstart on a newbro of 1M SP; the combined SP gap of this veteran's "stompsquad" would have been a maximum of 4-5M SP over that of a newbro or newbro squad. Today, that gap can quite literally reach into the 100s of millions. If we think of this SP gap in terms of weight, today's stompsquads are both larger and many times heavier than yesterday's. Dust hasn't changed that much. There are still very well skilled players on the field stomping other well skilled players, noobs and vets alike. Measuring the "stomp factor" of a squad by SP is a mistake. To really look at "stomp factor" you can use the formula WP/(KDRKills). It is a very real metric on how well the player kills and works with the team. The lower the number, the better the player is (any number approaching 1 is going to shoot blue balls of fire out of their eyes instantly evaporating the entire enemy team). With this metric you will see duna2002 at a stomp factor of 2.11337~ whereas for instance myself clocking in at around 213.59645~. By far duna2002 is the better player, and tbh with a KDR of 45.03 I would expect him to be. Using this metric to adjust how scotty builds teams may be the answer to the problem, ofc I would also like to point out that being able to pick which fights we take and those we don't would be a better option. Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*
ZymposieR Rusty Dead Man's Game RUST415 15	Posted - 2015.01.20 20:45:00 - [288] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. =ƒæì But I would go further ... 2 in pubs and 16 in FW and PC. Or 6 in FW when we get corp battles....
Duke Noobiam The Dukes of Death 347	Posted - 2015.01.21 17:50:00 - [289] - Quote Love this idea. 4 man squad max for pubs. FW and PC could and should allow for larger squads .
Zene Ren Hired Ghost 116	Posted - 2015.01.22 21:08:00 - [290] - Quote Duke Noobiam wrote: Love this idea. 4 man squad max for pubs. FW and PC could and should allow for larger squads . 4 man squad for pubs > 8 man squad for FW > 16 man team deploy PC man that's logical and fits in reality of Dust, it's nearly like magic ! Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding

Hector Carson G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 159	Posted - 2015.01.23 04:57:00 - [291] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. love it love everything about it, but just one thing, could they add a little bit of an ISK payout in FW as well with loyalty points just make it to where you earn only half of what you would get in a pub. Assault c.k0 Proto Tankers

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 15520	Posted - 2015.01.23 07:45:00 - [292] - Quote Thanks everyone, all feedback appreciated! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



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