DUST Search - Hotfix [Echo]

All Channels

Feedback/Requests

Hotfix [Echo] - Fixing Ewar

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1134	Posted - 2014.10.09 03:38:00 - [1] - Quote So I put together a few charts as I did before for swarms (4 missiles for all/increasing damage for lower tiers... yep that was me) and the amarr scout bonus issue (was a while ago). This time it is exploring how EWAR is fundamentally broken right now, and how we could bring it back to balance so that other suits can also be a part of this metagame. Here is a graph of what EWAR looks like now. The (p) stands for precision and the (d) stands for dampening. As you can see, it is quite easy to avoid all scan with minimal sacrifice, and there is no sacrifice great enough to try to keep up. I propose a 5 part approach approach. 1) Change a few scan profile/precision numbers. The scout goes to 40/40, logi to 45/45, assault to 50/50, and heavy suits to 55/55. 2) Change precision dampners to mirror the values of precision enhancers. (i.e. cmplx-20%, enhanced-15%, basic-10%) 3) Change amarr precision bonus to 3% per level Doing these changes would alter the above chart from what it is to THIS. Much more balanced, dampening specialized suit can still become fully undetectable, and even an assault can pick up on scouts who don't dampen at all. 4) Change active scanners to mirror the new values, change gallente logi bonus to 3% / level) value/{gal logi value} Proto focused = 20 / {17} Proto = 24 / {20} Advanced = 30 / {25} Standard = 40 / {34} Scanners are now useful for all suits again, but can easily be dampened to not be seen (1 cmplx damp on a sentinel evades the standard scanner on a non-bonused suit) 5) Remove shared passive vision This is pretty self evident. If the 360 spin knowledge to everyone was a problem, so is this. Some examples of the new system. An assault with 1 complex enhancer picks up undampened amarr/minnie scouts, 2 dampners picks up the caldari and gallente ones too. Basically assault scouts now have to deal with prepared normal assaults. A logi with 3 cmplx dampners picks up all amarr/minnie scouts with two dampners and cal/gal with 1 dampner. Useful for watching a squads back. A crazy caldari sentinel that fits all complex precision enhancers could pick up undamned scouts (and even amarr/minnie scouts who go with only 1 damp). I would say that is one heck of a sacrifice, but it could potentially pay off. Oh and one last thing, for this to work cloaks should give no dampening bonus. It actually never made sense why they would do any but INCREASE your profile anyway. Fixing EWAR
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 223	Posted - 2014.10.09 06:21:00 - [2] - Quote I'm for just about everything you suggest as it allows non-proto scanners to actually scan undamped scouts, I mean who would have thought undamped scouts would have to actually worry about scanners. My only problem is the scan ranges. Kind of pointless having the above changes when both the heavy and assault dropsuits can't scan anything past 15m, assuming their skill is maxed without wasting another slot for another pathetic 1 - 3 meters. It never sat well with me having the same scan range as a heavy while being in a much smaller/agile suit. Planetside 2 Eventually Eh
TRULY ELITE WarRavens Capital Punishment. 59	Posted - 2014.10.09 06:41:00 - [3] - Quote THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote: I'm for just about everything you suggest as it allows non-proto scanners to actually scan undamped scouts, I mean who would have thought undamped scouts would have to actually worry about scanners. My only problem is the scan ranges. Kind of pointless having the above changes when both the heavy and assault dropsuits can't scan anything past 15m, assuming their skill is maxed without wasting another slot for another pathetic 1 - 3 meters. It never sat well with me having the same scan range as a heavy while being in a much smaller/agile suit. Well I'm sure that can be changed
The Master Race Immortal Guides 94	Posted - 2014.10.09 07:00:00 - [4] - Quote I think there are more problems with a scout then just ewar and breaking an assault fit to ineffectually "counter" a scout does not seem fun. Removing group passive scan and buffing scanners is a good start though. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
Jathniel G I A N T 1178	Posted - 2014.10.09 07:29:00 - [5] - Quote This is a good effort, but I see some serious problems. 1. With your changes, Assault and Logi suits would need to only run 2 complex precision enhancers, and he will defeat nearly EVERY practical ewar solution employed by Scouts today, and if the Assault or Logi uses 3...? Congratulations you just broke the Amarr and Minmatar scouts. 2. These changes simply force the Amarr scout to share its ONE advantage (scan precision) with the suit that doesn't need anymore advantages, the Gallente Scout. These changes would make BOTH of those suits the undisputed kings of detection. 3. Amarr and Minmatar scouts will simply be incapable of hiding from other scouts... and as I said before, Assaults and Logis that feel like finding them, dampened or not. 4. The Gallente scout will again come out on top as best dampening scout, AND (unlike now) it will be able to detect people running 2+ dampeners. These changes simply ensure that Assaults can kill the majority of dampened Scouts with ease (don't forget Assaults have a LOT of base health now, it would NOT hurt them to run ewar modules). It will also ensure that only the Gallente scout is viable; the Amarr scout, despite the precision advantage, would be the only Scout suit capable of hiding. Edited: To ensure that the threat posed by Assault and Logi suits is emphasized. Addendum: EWAR in this game is not broken. The Cloaked Shotgun spam is. To solve the issue of CQC Scout spam, a simple hotzone of absolute detection could be implemented around Logi or Assault suits. If a hostile comes within 3-5 meters of you, you get detected, cloaked and dampened or not, and that detection is squad-shared so that the victims buddies can turn around and floor you as needed. Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3494	Posted - 2014.10.09 07:52:00 - [6] - Quote If rattati put an RNG on EWAR and eliminates the "always succeeds" or "always fails" aspect of ewar, it becomes balanced. Scouts have a chance of being spotted briefly, and sentinels can vanish on the radat for a brief moment. EWAR would be fine if there was a failure point that wasn't a simple math equation that anyone could solve.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3206	Posted - 2014.10.09 09:53:00 - [7] - Quote This still gives scout a complete monopoly on EWAR. I would, pwrsonally, much rather ewar be split three fold between each suit tier. Medium gets best scans, scout best dampening, and heavy best scan radii. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2820	Posted - 2014.10.09 09:59:00 - [8] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: This still gives scout a complete monopoly on EWAR. I would, pwrsonally, much rather ewar be split three fold between each suit tier. Medium gets best scans, scout best dampening, and heavy best scan radii. I can agree with you on all but number three. Fat bois are pretty much blind Ewar wise, but that normally doesn't matter seeing as they're so fat and tanky, it doesn't even matter. Assaults having best scans would give them an edge over scouts, so points there. FAs official perv and lech. My dream is to turn 80 and become a dirty old man chasing skirts.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3206	Posted - 2014.10.09 10:26:00 - [9] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: This still gives scout a complete monopoly on EWAR. I would, pwrsonally, much rather ewar be split three fold between each suit tier. Medium gets best scans, scout best dampening, and heavy best scan radii. I can agree with you on all but number three. Fat bois are pretty much blind Ewar wise, but that normally doesn't matter seeing as they're so fat and tanky, it doesn't even matter. Assaults having best scans would give them an edge over scouts, so points there. Well number 3 means that unless a fatty sacrifices tank, he can't actually use his bonus. The idea is not turn heavies into giant scanners without a proper sacrifice, it does allow heavies to passively scan each other, they will hunt each other down :) supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3498	Posted - 2014.10.09 11:52:00 - [10] - Quote I already use precision mods. It has improved my game immensely. The only problem is on the radar you see nothing until the target is in the center of the radar and crawling up your ass like lemmiwinks the magic hamster.

Jebus McKing lol Proto 745	Posted - 2014.10.09 11:55:00 - [11] - Quote (Could you fix your wording please? It is kinda confusing when you talk about precision dampeners... are those supposed to be precision enhancers or profile dampeners? And I think you mixed up enhancers and dampeners a couple of times.) So, correct me if I'm wrong, the way I understand the changes you propose is that you want to make it easier to get scanned down? If this is the case then I can not support this proposal. EWAR already is a kinda binary thing. You either use a fully dampened scout suit or you will be scanned. You either are an Amarr scout or Gallente Logi or you won't be able to see anyone who cares for his dampening. Also having a wallhack like the current scanning mechanic is too much of an advantage to leave it unchanged or even make it easier to use. I'd like to see changes in this fashion: Change Scout bonuses in a way that they make EWAR modules more efficient instead of giving them inherent bonuses. - This way they will have to decide if they want to be fully tanked and lose their EWAR bonus, or the other way around. Make precision enhancers have a negative effect on scan range. - You want to be all-seeing? No problem, but it has to come at a price! This negative effect should not be crippling, but noticeable. Change Assault suits base profile from 50 to 45. - Logi suits have a profile of 50 and precision of 45. If we change it this way Assaults will have it the other way around. This change would enable Assaults to have a dampened fit for flanking purposes if they want to. They will be able to make fittings dedicated to dampening and avoid being scanned by part-time scanners. The change to Assault profiles creates the need to buff the STD active scanner from 46 to 44, so they can still scan undampened Assaults. (It also makes sense that the active scanner has a better precision than a logi without skills, IMO.) Remove shared scans from passive scanning. - Being all-seeing is too much of an advantage to give it out for free to everyone in a squad. Use communication if you want to give your squad mates information about the enemy location. That's all. kthx lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5585	Posted - 2014.10.09 13:22:00 - [12] - Quote Here's the math, folks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DRR1YkBcze0KNRLh-mQMV7FEC9rbs5BFj3T_f35Uhuo/edit?usp=sharing In a word, we'd all be further under the "you've been scanned" bus than MinScouts in Alpha. @ Magnus Your model undoes all progress made toward EWAR normalization among Scouts in HF Charlie, decentivizes use of EWAR modules among Scouts, and pushes Scouts back in the direction of Assault Lite. If there's no point to dampening, scouts will run plates instead of damps. We've been here before. Your model is inferior to the present; it would create far more problems than it'd solve. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 134	Posted - 2014.10.09 14:10:00 - [13] - Quote Jathniel wrote: This is a good effort, but I see some serious problems. 1. With your changes, Assault and Logi suits would need to only run 2 complex precision enhancers, and he will defeat nearly EVERY practical ewar solution employed by Scouts today, and if the Assault or Logi uses 3...? Congratulations you just broke the Amarr and Minmatar scouts. 2. These changes simply force the Amarr scout to share its ONE advantage (scan precision) with the suit that doesn't need anymore advantages, the Gallente Scout. These changes would make BOTH of those suits the undisputed kings of detection. 3. Amarr and Minmatar scouts will simply be incapable of hiding from other scouts... and as I said before, Assaults and Logis that feel like finding them, dampened or not. 4. The Gallente scout will again come out on top as best dampening scout, AND (unlike now) it will be able to detect people running 2+ dampeners. These changes simply ensure that Assaults can kill the majority of dampened Scouts with ease (don't forget Assaults have a LOT of base health now, it would NOT hurt them to run ewar modules). It will also ensure that only the Gallente scout is viable; the Amarr scout, despite the precision advantage, would be the only Scout suit capable of hiding. Edited: To ensure that the threat posed by Assault and Logi suits is emphasized. Addendum: EWAR in this game is not broken. The Cloaked Shotgun spam is. To solve the issue of CQC Scout spam, a simple hotzone of absolute detection could be implemented around Logi or Assault suits. If a hostile comes within 3-5 meters of you, you get detected, cloaked and dampened or not, and that detection is squad-shared so that the victims buddies can turn around and floor you as needed. This will force shotgun scouts to be more methodical with their approach, since they won't be able to wipe out whole squads without being detected. And what about knives? They would turn around before we get in range. How about no The Best Worst game you can't stop playing..... DUST
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1135	Posted - 2014.10.09 14:35:00 - [14] - Quote Jathniel, I don't think the data in the charts reflect what you are saying. Here let me go through it a point at a time. Jathniel wrote: This is a good effort, but I see some serious problems. 1. With your changes, Assault and Logi suits would need to only run 2 complex precision enhancers, and he will defeat nearly EVERY practical ewar solution employed by Scouts today, and if the Assault or Logi uses 3...? Congratulations you just broke the Amarr and Minmatar scouts. According to my data here, 2 complex damp on an amaarr/minnie assault means no detection from an amarr assault... ever. 3 damps and you can avoid all non-focused scanners and all logis/assaultsmaking you invisible to all bu the most specialized suits. 4 damps (specialized stealth suit) make syou invisible to everything except for a focused scanner on a max skilled gallente logistics. Seeing as that suit is specialized for detectiong, and those two scouts are not.... sounds like balance to me. Jathniel wrote: 2. These changes simply force the Amarr scout to share its ONE advantage (scan precision) with the suit that doesn't need anymore advantages, the Gallente Scout. These changes would make BOTH of those suits the undisputed kings of detection. No, if you look at the charts, that 1% makes or breaks the bonus. The 2% on the gallente allows it to downgrade modules from complex to enhanced, but it will never keep up with the amarr. Jathniel wrote: 3. Amarr and Minmatar scouts will simply be incapable of hiding from other scouts... and as I said before, Assaults and Logis that feel like finding them, dampened or not. Covered in the answer to 1) Jathniel wrote: 4. The Gallente scout will again come out on top as best dampening scout, AND (unlike now) it will be able to detect people running 2+ dampeners. Perhaps you have a point here, IDK to be honest. Having TWO EWAR bonuses (like the caldari) always bothered me some and always made those two suits the very best scouts. Either way, lets not throw out the baby with the bath water here. Perhaps a change to 1% per level would be sufficient (would allow it to pick up fully damped logistics but not a 3x damp amarr/minnie). Jathniel wrote: These changes simply ensure that Assaults can kill the majority of dampened Scouts with ease (don't forget Assaults have a LOT of base health now, it would NOT hurt them to run ewar modules). It will also ensure that only the Gallente scout is viable; the Amarr scout, despite the precision advantage, would be the only Scout suit capable of hiding. Edited: To ensure that the threat posed by Assault and Logi suits is emphasized. Addendum: EWAR in this game is not broken. The Cloaked Shotgun spam is. To solve the issue of CQC Scout spam, a simple hotzone of absolute detection could be implemented around Logi or Assault suits. If a hostile comes within 3-5 meters of you, you get detected, cloaked and dampened or not, and that detection is squad-shared so that the victims buddies can turn around and floor you as needed. This will force shotgun scouts to be more methodical with their approach, since they won't be able to wipe out whole squads without being detected. [/quote] These changes ensure that you have to make tradeoffs, unlike now. All scouts would still be extremely viable, even with these changes scouts may still be overpowered (but I would like to try them and see how it goes). This ensures scouts have to make sacrifices in order to counter other EWAR related play. As it is now, fit 2x damps and you only worry about amarr scouts... maybe. That isn't balanced, it is broken. No EWAR is broken. EWAR is go scout or go home. That is broken, and not other suit systems work this way. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5588	Posted - 2014.10.09 14:40:00 - [15] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: All scouts would still be extremely viable, even with these changes scouts may still be overpowered Its very kind of you to say this, Magnus. Unfortunately, your math disagrees with your sentiment. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3509	Posted - 2014.10.09 14:42:00 - [16] - Quote Until ewar has a chance to fail at both ends inherently, both detection and dampening, EWAR cannot be balanced, period. It cannot happen while "lower db always wins" is a thing.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1135	Posted - 2014.10.09 14:43:00 - [17] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Don't be fooled by the pretty chart or the cherry picked examples. Here's the math, folks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DRR1YkBcze0KNRLh-mQMV7FEC9rbs5BFj3T_f35Uhuo/edit?usp=sharing In a word, we'd all be further under the permascan bus than MinScouts in Alpha. @ Magnus I understand you've been away for awhile, and I hate to come at you aggressively, but what you've proposed here would create far more problems than it'd solve. Your model negates all progress made toward EWAR normalization among scouts in HF Charlie, decentivizes use of EWAR modules among scouts, and pushes scouts back in the direction of Assault Lite. If there's no point to dampening, scouts will run plates instead of damps. We've been here before, and it wasn't for the better. EWAR isn't perfect at present, but its closer to balanced than its been in the past. Your proposal is inferior to the current model. PS: I agree with you 100% that shared passives should be disabled and that undampened Scouts should be more readily detected. Your spreadsheet is wrong. Dust, like eve, truncates values. This means 30.6 = 30 (gallente scout with 1 x cmplx damp) It messes up quite a few figures of yours actually. It also means that unless you make the tradeoff (scan profile for HP) you will be detected. This is the #1 problem with scouts still, they can have HP and be undetected. Scouts are assault lites because they ALWAYS have the initiative against other suits... ever since 1.8. No, my proposal would make it so that if you fit an scout like an assault you will be deteced by suits that have more eHP/reps and you will have to deal with them on equal footing. No more stealthy tanky scouts. It also makes it so that if you want to be undetected, you will fit for it. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1135	Posted - 2014.10.09 14:44:00 - [18] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: Jathniel wrote: This is a good effort, but I see some serious problems. 1. With your changes, Assault and Logi suits would need to only run 2 complex precision enhancers, and he will defeat nearly EVERY practical ewar solution employed by Scouts today, and if the Assault or Logi uses 3...? Congratulations you just broke the Amarr and Minmatar scouts. 2. These changes simply force the Amarr scout to share its ONE advantage (scan precision) with the suit that doesn't need anymore advantages, the Gallente Scout. These changes would make BOTH of those suits the undisputed kings of detection. 3. Amarr and Minmatar scouts will simply be incapable of hiding from other scouts... and as I said before, Assaults and Logis that feel like finding them, dampened or not. 4. The Gallente scout will again come out on top as best dampening scout, AND (unlike now) it will be able to detect people running 2+ dampeners. These changes simply ensure that Assaults can kill the majority of dampened Scouts with ease (don't forget Assaults have a LOT of base health now, it would NOT hurt them to run ewar modules). It will also ensure that only the Gallente scout is viable; the Amarr scout, despite the precision advantage, would be the only Scout suit capable of hiding. Edited: To ensure that the threat posed by Assault and Logi suits is emphasized. Addendum: EWAR in this game is not broken. The Cloaked Shotgun spam is. To solve the issue of CQC Scout spam, a simple hotzone of absolute detection could be implemented around Logi or Assault suits. If a hostile comes within 3-5 meters of you, you get detected, cloaked and dampened or not, and that detection is squad-shared so that the victims buddies can turn around and floor you as needed. This will force shotgun scouts to be more methodical with their approach, since they won't be able to wipe out whole squads without being detected. And what about knives? They would turn around before we get in range. How about no Only if they fit to detect you, and in that case.... why do you think you should be stealthy without fitting for that? Knives were boosted so that they can be OHK on most suits. If you want to sneak around with a OHK weapon, you should have to sacrifice for that. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1135	Posted - 2014.10.09 14:47:00 - [19] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: All scouts would still be extremely viable, even with these changes scouts may still be overpowered Its very kind of you to say this, Magnus. Unfortunately, your math disagrees with your sentiment. Would you like to provide some proof? A poster before you used incorrect values, then posted them for everyone to see how he and his argument were wrong. I am totally open to the fact that my math might be wrong, but don't think for a second I did not double/triple check the figures, and that I will not do the same to you. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5589	Posted - 2014.10.09 14:51:00 - [20] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Don't be fooled by the pretty chart or the cherry picked examples. Here's the math, folks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DRR1YkBcze0KNRLh-mQMV7FEC9rbs5BFj3T_f35Uhuo/edit?usp=sharing In a word, we'd all be further under the permascan bus than MinScouts in Alpha. @ Magnus I understand you've been away for awhile, and I hate to come at you aggressively, but what you've proposed here would create far more problems than it'd solve. Your model negates all progress made toward EWAR normalization among scouts in HF Charlie, decentivizes use of EWAR modules among scouts, and pushes scouts back in the direction of Assault Lite. If there's no point to dampening, scouts will run plates instead of damps. We've been here before, and it wasn't for the better. EWAR isn't perfect at present, but its closer to balanced than its been in the past. Your proposal is inferior to the current model. PS: I agree with you 100% that shared passives should be disabled and that undampened Scouts should be more readily detected. 1. Your spreadsheet is wrong. Dust, like eve, truncates values. This means 30.6 = 30 (gallente scout with 1 x cmplx damp) It messes up quite a few figures of yours actually. It also means that unless you make the tradeoff (scan profile for HP) you will be detected. This is the #1 problem with scouts still, they can have HP and be undetected. 2. Scouts are assault lites because they ALWAYS have the initiative against other suits... ever since 1.8. No, my proposal would make it so that if you fit an scout like an assault you will be deteced by suits that have more eHP/reps and you will have to deal with them on equal footing. No more stealthy tanky scouts. It also makes it so that if you want to be undetected, you will fit for it. 1. You're wrong. We've tested every conceivable Scout v Scout permutation. We've concluded that profile and precision values round to the nearest whole number, and ties favor precision. I challenge you to find a single verifiable instance wherein these findings do not apply. 2. Your assertions here are debatable. The math behind your proposal is not. What you've proposed risks permascan; it marginalizes all but heavily damped Gallente Scouts. Your proposal introduces imbalance; it does not fix EWAR. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5589	Posted - 2014.10.09 15:01:00 - [21] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: All scouts would still be extremely viable, even with these changes scouts may still be overpowered Its very kind of you to say this, Magnus. Unfortunately, your math disagrees with your sentiment. 1. Would you like to provide some proof? A poster before you used incorrect values, then posted them for everyone to see how he and his argument were wrong. 2. I am totally open to the fact that my math might be wrong, but don't think for a second I did not double/triple check the figures, and that I will not do the same to you. 1. One example. A single GA Logi with a couple Creodron Flux Active Scanners would clear from entire sockets all Scouts excluding triple damp'd GA. No CA, MN or AM Scout could beat this 200m / 90 degree scan ... and that's not even the focused scanner. Balanced? 2. I've not suggested your math is wrong; all I've done is put it in a spreadsheet. Your premise is what's wrong. If Precision can beat Profile, it will always beat Profile. For this reason, the current EWAR model favors Profile over Precision. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1135	Posted - 2014.10.09 15:03:00 - [22] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Don't be fooled by the pretty chart or the cherry picked examples. Here's the math, folks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DRR1YkBcze0KNRLh-mQMV7FEC9rbs5BFj3T_f35Uhuo/edit?usp=sharing In a word, we'd all be further under the permascan bus than MinScouts in Alpha. @ Magnus I understand you've been away for awhile, and I hate to come at you aggressively, but what you've proposed here would create far more problems than it'd solve. Your model negates all progress made toward EWAR normalization among scouts in HF Charlie, decentivizes use of EWAR modules among scouts, and pushes scouts back in the direction of Assault Lite. If there's no point to dampening, scouts will run plates instead of damps. We've been here before, and it wasn't for the better. EWAR isn't perfect at present, but its closer to balanced than its been in the past. Your proposal is inferior to the current model. PS: I agree with you 100% that shared passives should be disabled and that undampened Scouts should be more readily detected. 1. Your spreadsheet is wrong. Dust, like eve, truncates values. This means 30.6 = 30 (gallente scout with 1 x cmplx damp) It messes up quite a few figures of yours actually. It also means that unless you make the tradeoff (scan profile for HP) you will be detected. This is the #1 problem with scouts still, they can have HP and be undetected. 2. Scouts are assault lites because they ALWAYS have the initiative against other suits... ever since 1.8. No, my proposal would make it so that if you fit an scout like an assault you will be deteced by suits that have more eHP/reps and you will have to deal with them on equal footing. No more stealthy tanky scouts. It also makes it so that if you want to be undetected, you will fit for it. 1. You're wrong. We've tested every conceivable Scout v Scout permutation. We've concluded that profile and precision values round to the nearest whole number, and ties favor precision. 2. Your assertions here are debatable. The math behind your proposal is not. What you've proposed risks permascan; it marginalizes all but heavily damped Gallente Scouts. Your proposal introduces imbalance; it does not fix EWAR. Lets get a DEV in here, because unless this has changed, no CCP truncates values. They do for ammo, they do for HP, they do ranges, so what makes this special? Unless you can provide some type of proof, I think we can maintain the status quo here. Just to be certain I did a search on google with the broad terms "Dust 514" and "truncate" and nothing confirmed what you have said... at all. Not one developer has spoken about a change to this, and there is not one video showing proof otherwise. All of that aside, did you completely forget that active scanners were nerfed pretty hard? There is no 360 spin (unless you use passive scans, then it is always), and the duration of scans has also increased. On top of that, active scanning requires you to fit a module and actually use it, exposing yourself. Passive scanning is ALWAYS on. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1135	Posted - 2014.10.09 15:08:00 - [23] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: All scouts would still be extremely viable, even with these changes scouts may still be overpowered Its very kind of you to say this, Magnus. Unfortunately, your math disagrees with your sentiment. 1. Would you like to provide some proof? A poster before you used incorrect values, then posted them for everyone to see how he and his argument were wrong. 2. I am totally open to the fact that my math might be wrong, but don't think for a second I did not double/triple check the figures, and that I will not do the same to you. 1. One example. A single GA Logi with a couple Creodron Flux Active Scanners would clear from entire sockets all Scouts excluding triple damp'd GA. No CA, MN or AM Scout could beat this 200m / 90 degree scan ... and that's not even the focused scanner. Balanced? 2. I've not suggested your math is wrong; all I've done is put it in a spreadsheet. Your premise is what's wrong. If Precision can beat Profile, it will always beat Profile. For this reason, the current EWAR model favors Profile over Precision. Flux active scanner can be completely avoided by scouts, forever, permanently. The flux would have a 20 dB resolution on a max skilled gallente logi, a triple damped gal would avoid it. The thing is you would have to fit for it though.... Please for the love of god look up what you are writing. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5589	Posted - 2014.10.09 15:11:00 - [24] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Don't be fooled by the pretty chart or the cherry picked examples. Here's the math, folks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DRR1YkBcze0KNRLh-mQMV7FEC9rbs5BFj3T_f35Uhuo/edit?usp=sharing In a word, we'd all be further under the permascan bus than MinScouts in Alpha. @ Magnus I understand you've been away for awhile, and I hate to come at you aggressively, but what you've proposed here would create far more problems than it'd solve. Your model negates all progress made toward EWAR normalization among scouts in HF Charlie, decentivizes use of EWAR modules among scouts, and pushes scouts back in the direction of Assault Lite. If there's no point to dampening, scouts will run plates instead of damps. We've been here before, and it wasn't for the better. EWAR isn't perfect at present, but its closer to balanced than its been in the past. Your proposal is inferior to the current model. PS: I agree with you 100% that shared passives should be disabled and that undampened Scouts should be more readily detected. 1. Your spreadsheet is wrong. Dust, like eve, truncates values. This means 30.6 = 30 (gallente scout with 1 x cmplx damp) It messes up quite a few figures of yours actually. It also means that unless you make the tradeoff (scan profile for HP) you will be detected. This is the #1 problem with scouts still, they can have HP and be undetected. 2. Scouts are assault lites because they ALWAYS have the initiative against other suits... ever since 1.8. No, my proposal would make it so that if you fit an scout like an assault you will be deteced by suits that have more eHP/reps and you will have to deal with them on equal footing. No more stealthy tanky scouts. It also makes it so that if you want to be undetected, you will fit for it. 1. You're wrong. We've tested every conceivable Scout v Scout permutation. We've concluded that profile and precision values round to the nearest whole number, and ties favor precision. 2. Your assertions here are debatable. The math behind your proposal is not. What you've proposed risks permascan; it marginalizes all but heavily damped Gallente Scouts. Your proposal introduces imbalance; it does not fix EWAR. 1. Lets get a DEV in here, because unless this has changed, no CCP truncates values. They do for ammo, they do for HP, they do ranges, so what makes this special? Unless you can provide some type of proof, I think we can maintain the status quo here. 2. Just to be certain I did a search on google with the broad terms "Dust 514" and "truncate" and nothing confirmed what you have said... at all. Not one developer has spoken about a change to this, and there is not one video showing proof otherwise. 3. All of that aside, did you completely forget that active scanners were nerfed pretty hard? There is no 360 spin (unless you use passive scans, then it is always), and the duration of scans has also increased. On top of that, active scanning requires you to fit a module and actually use it, exposing yourself. Passive scanning is ALWAYS on. 1. Nothing has changed. You lack knowledge. Grab a friend and test it for yourself. 2. WTF do you intend to prove with that lazy science? 3. Grab an active scanner and test spin scan for yourself. Tell us what you find. You're wrong. Do research. Get right. No shortcuts. No ad hominem. No spin. Get your facts straight, then we can chat. Until then, you're wasting everyone's time. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1135	Posted - 2014.10.09 15:24:00 - [25] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Don't be fooled by the pretty chart or the cherry picked examples. Here's the math, folks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DRR1YkBcze0KNRLh-mQMV7FEC9rbs5BFj3T_f35Uhuo/edit?usp=sharing In a word, we'd all be further under the permascan bus than MinScouts in Alpha. @ Magnus I understand you've been away for awhile, and I hate to come at you aggressively, but what you've proposed here would create far more problems than it'd solve. Your model negates all progress made toward EWAR normalization among scouts in HF Charlie, decentivizes use of EWAR modules among scouts, and pushes scouts back in the direction of Assault Lite. If there's no point to dampening, scouts will run plates instead of damps. We've been here before, and it wasn't for the better. EWAR isn't perfect at present, but its closer to balanced than its been in the past. Your proposal is inferior to the current model. PS: I agree with you 100% that shared passives should be disabled and that undampened Scouts should be more readily detected. 1. Your spreadsheet is wrong. Dust, like eve, truncates values. This means 30.6 = 30 (gallente scout with 1 x cmplx damp) It messes up quite a few figures of yours actually. It also means that unless you make the tradeoff (scan profile for HP) you will be detected. This is the #1 problem with scouts still, they can have HP and be undetected. 2. Scouts are assault lites because they ALWAYS have the initiative against other suits... ever since 1.8. No, my proposal would make it so that if you fit an scout like an assault you will be deteced by suits that have more eHP/reps and you will have to deal with them on equal footing. No more stealthy tanky scouts. It also makes it so that if you want to be undetected, you will fit for it. 1. You're wrong. We've tested every conceivable Scout v Scout permutation. We've concluded that profile and precision values round to the nearest whole number, and ties favor precision. 2. Your assertions here are debatable. The math behind your proposal is not. What you've proposed risks permascan; it marginalizes all but heavily damped Gallente Scouts. Your proposal introduces imbalance; it does not fix EWAR. 1. Lets get a DEV in here, because unless this has changed, no CCP truncates values. They do for ammo, they do for HP, they do ranges, so what makes this special? Unless you can provide some type of proof, I think we can maintain the status quo here. 2. Just to be certain I did a search on google with the broad terms "Dust 514" and "truncate" and nothing confirmed what you have said... at all. Not one developer has spoken about a change to this, and there is not one video showing proof otherwise. 3. All of that aside, did you completely forget that active scanners were nerfed pretty hard? There is no 360 spin (unless you use passive scans, then it is always), and the duration of scans has also increased. On top of that, active scanning requires you to fit a module and actually use it, exposing yourself. Passive scanning is ALWAYS on. 1. Nothing has changed. You lack knowledge. Grab a friend and test it for yourself. 2. WTF do you intend to prove with that lazy science? 3. Grab an active scanner and test spin scan for yourself. Tell us what you find. You're wrong. Do research. Get right. No shortcuts. No ad hominem. No spin. Get your facts straight, then we can chat. Until then, you're wasting everyone's time. 1. So here is what you did: You contradict a LONG standing belief based on years of history from both dust and eve of truncation, then when asked for proof you tell me, "go find it yourself." 2. That is called research, none of it supports your assertion... at all. 3. Oh I have used scanners since they were nerfed, you cannot even do a 180 turn before the scan completes, and it does not increase your FOV. Also care to comment on the false scanner assertion you made a few post up? Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5589	Posted - 2014.10.09 15:26:00 - [26] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 1. One example. A single GA Logi with a couple Creodron Flux Active Scanners would clear from entire sockets all Scouts excluding triple damp'd GA. No CA, MN or AM Scout could beat this 200m / 90 degree scan ... and that's not even the focused scanner. Balanced? Flux active scanner can be completely avoided by scouts, forever, permanently. The flux would have a 20 dB resolution on a max skilled gallente logi, a triple damped gal would avoid it. The thing is you would have to fit for it though.... Please for the love of god look up what you are writing. By your model, the Creodron Flux Active Scanner scans at 20 dB when wielded by GA Logi. Scans: Max-skilled AM Scout running straight Complex Dampeners in Lows (20 dB). Scans: Max-skilled CA Scout running straight Complex Dampeners in Lows (20 dB). Scans: Max-skilled MN Scout running straight Complex Dampeners in Lows (21dB). Scans: Max-skilled GA Scout running 2 Complex Dampeners in Lows (20 dB). The only configuration of Scout which could beat this scanner is a Gallente with 3 damps (18 dB) or 4 damps (17 dB) both of whom can still be scanned by GA Logi + Focused. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5596	Posted - 2014.10.09 15:32:00 - [27] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: "go find it yourself." Precisely. Please and thank you. We did the research, and we tested our findings exhaustively. Our findings were later independently tested and verified by the Haerr himself. Getting scanned is life-or-death to a Scout; we don't take the math lightly, and we certainly don't make sh*t up. If these rules are wrong, you shouldn't find much difficulty at all disproving them: #1 - Profile and Precision values are rounded to the nearest whole number. #2 - If Profile and Precision values are tied, Precision wins (ties go to the scanner). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
icdedppul PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 244	Posted - 2014.10.09 15:35:00 - [28] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Lets get a DEV in here, because unless this has changed, no CCP truncates values. They do for ammo, they do for HP, they do ranges, so what makes this special? Unless you can provide some type of proof, I think we can maintain the status quo here. hotfix Charlie EWar calcs direct from Rattati https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i0LbL4DJt6LGioHeUVfuCyJlDK1CHf_n9plFNUtrHOs/edit#gid=0 do those look rounded or truncated...... just going to let you decide
Vesta Opalus Kang Lo Holding 45	Posted - 2014.10.09 15:38:00 - [29] - Quote Thanks for the post OP, current state of EWAR is one of the (few?) places where this game is really falling down on its face these days. Instead of dampening always winning, I think precision should always win. The question should be, at what point does it win? I'd like to see a system implemented that isnt just scan or cant scan within the area scanned. This kind of system is bad because, at the end of the day, when everyone is all protod out and running the best scans or damps possible, one of the two will always win, which is kind of lame and makes the losing module pointless beyond a certain point. What I'd like to see is a sort of fudging of scans/damps, so that there is a gradient out from the scanning suit where precision gradually reduces to the point where you have no scans at all. This means that enemy suits can get into the radius of a scan without being scanned, until the scan's precision gradient reaches the point where the precision outweighs the enemy suit's dampening. This means that increasing the scanner's precision will raise the value of the gradient, thus pushing out the distance the scan will pick up a suit, and dampening counters that gradient rise, pushing the distance back in. This means that, while precision in my EWAR solution would always win, the dampening would push back the radius of scanning so that they have more and more undetectable safe zone to operate in. This makes both precision and dampening useful, and the strongest precision should always be able to detect people within a radius (20-30m?) that would prevent shotgunners from steamrolling your team, which I think would make dust much more balanced overall without making dampening or shotguns totally worthless.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1135	Posted - 2014.10.09 15:43:00 - [30] - Quote icdedppul wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Lets get a DEV in here, because unless this has changed, no CCP truncates values. They do for ammo, they do for HP, they do ranges, so what makes this special? Unless you can provide some type of proof, I think we can maintain the status quo here. hotfix Charlie EWar calcs direct from Rattati https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i0LbL4DJt6LGioHeUVfuCyJlDK1CHf_n9plFNUtrHOs/edit#gid=0 do those look rounded or truncated...... just going to let you decide Honestly, thank you. I will admit I must have been wrong. So while a very few tweaks to the numbers will be required, such as changing the proto active scanners to 25-26 dB rather than 24, the underlying logic of the post I think is solid. Fixing EWAR

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5599	Posted - 2014.10.09 15:54:00 - [31] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Honestly, thank you. I will admit I must have been wrong. So while a very few tweaks to the numbers will be required, such as changing the proto active scanners to 25-26 dB rather than 24, the underlying logic of the post I think is solid. Let us know when your new numbers are available; I'll update the Amadeuss EWAR spreadsheet with your changes. Also, Rattati has already looked into disabling Shared Squad Sight; seems this would require a client-side update. Not sure how big a part this plays in your proposal, but its something to keep in mind. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1135	Posted - 2014.10.09 16:04:00 - [32] - Quote So, I changed the proto-non-focused scanner to a value of 26 dB, this means that all scouts can avoid that second-to-best scanner on a max skilled proto gallogi when they fit for stealth. Only suits with stealth bonuses avoid the focused scanner, but they have to sacrifice to do it. I have just logged in and tested it again, just as CCP said, scanners now take snapshots of the range that they are pointed at when they activate, this means that you get what you are pointed at. To do this I suicided into the middle of a domination match (where we were getting destroyed) a few times with a 60 degree scanner. The Charts I made in the original post do hold up though, as they were made not with truncated or rounded numbers, but with exact values. I understand that equal precision and dampening mean precision wins, and that was taken into account in the original proposal. When an unbonused suit sacrifices 3-4 slots, another unbonused suit should have to sacrifice the same to counter it and vice versa. Bonused suits should be slot multipliers. Now there are more progressive steps that I would like to suggest (logis being locked on to their scanner for the entire cooldown, like how overheat works) or (decreasing range for scouts and decreasing precision for scanners), but I think baby steps is the best approach here as balance is an iterative process and I cannot predict all outcomes a change like this would entail. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5610	Posted - 2014.10.09 16:34:00 - [33] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I have just logged in and tested it agaiIn, just as CCP said, scanners now take snapshots of the range that they are pointed at when they activate, this means that you get what you are pointed at. To do this I suicided into the middle of a domination match (where we were getting destroyed) a few times with a 60 degree scanner. Try maxing your sensitivity; this controls your rotation speed. I'm testing in-game as we speak and getting different results. Using a DS3 at max in-game sensitivity and a Creodron Flux Active Scanner ... Expectation: Targets within +/- 45 degrees of center at start-of-scan should blink on TacNet following scan. If "snapshot" works, no other targets should blink on TacNet after scan, whether I rotate while scanning or not. Observations: When I hold still while scanning, targets within my 90 degree scan arc blink on TacNet for 8 seconds. Working as intended. When I rotate while scanning, targets within ~180 degree degree scan arc blink on TacNet for 2-3 seconds. Not working as intended. Wish I had a capture card for you, but these results should easy for you to reproduce. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4674	Posted - 2014.10.09 16:42:00 - [34] - Quote I can't get behind anything that will make all scouts visible even when they are making a significant sacrifice to max their dampening. Especially when the only sacrifice the Gal Logi needs to scan them is carry a single piece of equipment. I don't mind the concept of giving assaults and logis a reason to use EWAR. That is reasonable. Shared passives need to go, and the great majority of players will agree on that. As a minja, who was not able to play Alpha to Charlie because of EWAR changes that negated my role completely, I cannot get behind any math that doesn't enable a scout to be invisible with significant sacrifice. A scanned scout is a dead scout, period. If this is intended as a fix for tanked scouts, there are much more precise measures to do so without obliterating all other scouts roles too. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1136	Posted - 2014.10.09 16:55:00 - [35] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I have just logged in and tested it agaiIn, just as CCP said, scanners now take snapshots of the range that they are pointed at when they activate, this means that you get what you are pointed at. To do this I suicided into the middle of a domination match (where we were getting destroyed) a few times with a 60 degree scanner. Try maxing your sensitivity; this controls your rotation speed. I'm testing in-game as we speak and getting different results. Using a DS3 at max in-game sensitivity and a Creodron Flux Active Scanner ... Expectation: Targets within +/- 45 degrees of center at start-of-scan should blink on TacNet following scan. If "snapshot" works, no other targets should blink on TacNet after scan, whether I rotate while scanning or not. Observations: When I hold still while scanning, targets within my 90 degree scan arc pulse on TacNet for 8 seconds following scan. Working as intended. When I rotate while scanning, targets within ~180 degree scan arc pulse on TacNet for 2-3 seconds following scan. Presumably not working as intended, but not as bad as it used to be as visibility duration is now cut short. Wish I had a capture card for you, but these results should easy for you to reproduce. Of note, Haerr suggests that spin-scanning via KB/M yields an even greater scan arc. I've not verified, but I've no reason to doubt Haerr. I'll check later, I have to work now, but there are quite a few anomolies in the proto scanners and stat re-adjustment is definitely needed. There is absolutely no reason why one scanner should be 200 m 90 degree 28 dB w/ 8 s visibility as it is now. It just eliminates the usefullness of the other scanners and creates one scanner for the job. Then again nobody complains about it because no one uses scanners anymore, something one of the goals of this thread is to change. Of course that is a discussion of scanner stats is for another thread, but I think setting a base (something like 100m @ 60 degrees and 5s/15s) and then tweaking the others (meaning more of one attribute and less of the others). Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1137	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:05:00 - [36] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I can't get behind anything that will make all scouts visible even when they are making a significant sacrifice to max their dampening. Especially when the only sacrifice the Gal Logi needs to scan them is carry a single piece of equipment. I don't mind the concept of giving assaults and logis a reason to use EWAR. That is reasonable. Shared passives need to go, and the great majority of players will agree on that. As a minja, who was not able to play Alpha to Charlie because of EWAR changes that negated my role completely, I cannot get behind any math that doesn't enable a scout to be invisible with significant sacrifice. A scanned scout is a dead scout, period. If this is intended as a fix for tanked scouts, there are much more precise measures to do so without obliterating all other scouts roles too. See I think this is part of the problem. Thinking that a non-specialized suit should be able to defeat a specialized suit at its own game. Minmatar scout is NOT a dampening SPECIALIZED suit. The Gallente/Caldari scouts are. The Gallente logi is a SPECIALIZED scanning suit. It SHOULD be able to scan a minmatar scout, given adequate skill investment and equipment. If you look at the interplay here, all scouts can always defeat the active scans of other non-specialized suits, but to beat the specialized suit you need to bring a specialized suit of your own. That's the way balance works. I am totally open to discussing changes in the individual scanners (like the Creodon Flux is just stupid), but like I said, that should be in a different thread. Why do you think a a non-specialized suit should be able to defeat a specialized suit? Fixing EWAR
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 2350	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:11:00 - [37] - Quote Here are some heuristics for how I'd like to see Ewar play out. Not sure how to balance the bonuses and modules to make it work. 1. Assaults should have base scan radius buffed to 20m. 2. An assault fitting 2 complex precision enhancers should see all scouts with ADV cloak and 0 damps 3. Active scanners need a buff. I'm not sure how it should work. We don't want to return to the old days of scanner spam, but they should be more effective. 4. It should be possible for a Gallente scout 5 to get under all scans running all damps and PRO cloak. 5. An Amarr scout 5 with max complex precision enhancers should see all scout fits except #4 I'd also like to see changes to how HP buffer mods work for scouts. I'm not sure this is hotfixable, but ideally each suit would have a mass stat, with suit speed being derived from mass. Light frames get low mass, mediums get medium, and heavy get high mass. Plates (excluding feroscale) would add a fixed amount of mass to each suit. This would mean that fitting plates on a scout would radically decrease speed, compared to a heavy fitting the same plate. Likewise shield extenders should give a penalty to signature profile, and stacking them will result in being easily detected. A shield extender variant analogous to the feroscale plate should be introduced; this version would have a reduced buffer, but no signature penalty. It would also be nice to see a reduction in the fitting costs for biotic modules. Scouts should be fitting these and Ewar modules more than tank. Best PvE idea ever!
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4527	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:36:00 - [38] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: This still gives scout a complete monopoly on EWAR. I would, pwrsonally, much rather ewar be split three fold between each suit tier. Medium gets best scans, scout best dampening, and heavy best scan radii. That would allow all the Heavy suits to find each other, as they would not be able to see any of the smaller suits, without substantial sacrifices. I actually like that suggestion. Further to your suggestion, I think Logi should specialize more in EWAR than Assault. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4675	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:37:00 - [39] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I can't get behind anything that will make all scouts visible even when they are making a significant sacrifice to max their dampening. Especially when the only sacrifice the Gal Logi needs to scan them is carry a single piece of equipment. I don't mind the concept of giving assaults and logis a reason to use EWAR. That is reasonable. Shared passives need to go, and the great majority of players will agree on that. As a minja, who was not able to play Alpha to Charlie because of EWAR changes that negated my role completely, I cannot get behind any math that doesn't enable a scout to be invisible with significant sacrifice. A scanned scout is a dead scout, period. If this is intended as a fix for tanked scouts, there are much more precise measures to do so without obliterating all other scouts roles too. See I think this is part of the problem. Thinking that a non-specialized suit should be able to defeat a specialized suit at its own game. Minmatar scout is NOT a dampening SPECIALIZED suit. The Gallente/Caldari scouts are. The Gallente logi is a SPECIALIZED scanning suit. It SHOULD be able to scan a minmatar/amarr scouts, given adequate skill investment and equipment. If you look at the interplay here, all scouts can always defeat the active scans of other non-specialized suits, but to beat the specialized suit you need to bring a specialized suit of your own. That's the way balance works. I am totally open to discussing changes in the individual scanners (like the Creodon Flux is just stupid), but like I said, that should be in a different thread. Why do you think a a non-specialized suit should be able to defeat a specialized suit? EDIT: Now if you were to suggest that the person scanning (i.e. lets say a galllogi) should light up on the scout's tacnet when scanned, I would say thats a good idea and makes sense, but I am not sure that is possible without a client update. Specialized suits should have advantages, but for balance reasons they shouldn't completely negate a role. Minmatar suits are CQC assassins and hackers. You cannot do either if all a Gal Logi has to do is pull out a Focused Scanner, which takes all of an EQ slot and a bit of SP, while a Minja had to level up Dampening and Hacking, not to mention Electronics and Engineering for fitting reasons. Squishy suits cannot have a role on the battlefield so long as the current Tacnet system is in place if they are scanned, regardless of whether they have a special dampening bonus or not. Just because Amarr suits have a specialization for armor doesn't mean that all other brands of Sentinal should not be able to tank armor. In the same way, Minmatar have to make an extreme fitting sacrifice in order to be invisible, as things currently stand, and MUST have the proto cloak active. This is reasonable. It is still a significant sacrifice compared to only needing the 1 piece of EQ that the Gal Logi can use, but it enables us to hack and knife. Its Active Scanner vs Active Dampener. It works. Your current system would render useless the suit, just as Alpha had. Any system that negates the role of an entire suit is not a balanced system. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Vesta Opalus Kang Lo Holding 45	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:43:00 - [40] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I can't get behind anything that will make all scouts visible even when they are making a significant sacrifice to max their dampening. Especially when the only sacrifice the Gal Logi needs to scan them is carry a single piece of equipment. I don't mind the concept of giving assaults and logis a reason to use EWAR. That is reasonable. Shared passives need to go, and the great majority of players will agree on that. As a minja, who was not able to play Alpha to Charlie because of EWAR changes that negated my role completely, I cannot get behind any math that doesn't enable a scout to be invisible with significant sacrifice. A scanned scout is a dead scout, period. If this is intended as a fix for tanked scouts, there are much more precise measures to do so without obliterating all other scouts roles too. All scouts should be visible at some point, otherwise how do we stop the ninja shotgun bs that ruins games when someone uses it? Do you like having someone running around who cant be seen or detected in any way who can also one shot the vast majority of suits? Do you think its fair or good gameplay that the only "counter" to invisible one shotting scouts is to also run a damped scout and depend on dumb luck for him to run into your vision before you run into his? Then half the time when he does run into your vision your own weapons fire makes it very likely that he can evade you just due to weapon flash making the stupidly variable cloak effect practically invisible for long enough for him to slip away? Also that "sacrifice" dampening/cloaking suits make is no sacrifice at all. You are sacrificing survivability for MORE SURVIVABILITY. That's not a sacrifice, its an investment. Also I disagree that passive scans shouldnt be shared. Passive scan fits actually sacrifice a great deal more than damp fits, because they can be easily detected by anyone and have very low hp values at the same time. Passive scans can frequently be outdpsed and out healthed by comparable dampening suits. The all or nothing EWAR we have now is the real reason we cant balance EWAR right now, if you see my post above thats an actual workable fix that puts a mechanics based counter to shotgun cloakers and at the same time gives damp/cloak scouts the ability to minimize the vulnerability the precision counter inflicts on them. I want to emphasize that there is NO COUNTER to a scout using cloaks and dampeners in the game right now that isnt using the same fit and depending on dumb luck.

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4527	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:45:00 - [41] - Quote I agree that Passive Scans should not be shared on the Tac-Net. However, I think visual scans should be shared. When you aim near an enemy (enough to get their health bar to display) their position should be shared on the Tac-Net, and it should continue to be shared until you lose visual contact. This would allow Scouts to more actively play their GÇ£ScoutGÇ¥ role, by pointing their weapon at enemies to let their squad know the enemyGÇÖs position. It would also give Snipers back their over-watch role. Active scanners should be shared. Now that we got rid of the 360 scans, I think that should work. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 2353	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:48:00 - [42] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: [quote=BL4CKST4R]Further to your suggestion, I think Logi should specialize more in EWAR than Assault. I respectfully disagree. Assaults should be decent at Ewar with passive scans, while Logi should use scanners for Ewar. This helps distinguish Assaults from Commandos, gives Assaults the option to fit some Ewar instead of just buffer, and allows the Logi to use equipment to support the team with Ewar. Best PvE idea ever!
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4527	Posted - 2014.10.09 17:55:00 - [43] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Further to your suggestion, I think Logi should specialize more in EWAR than Assault. I respectfully disagree. Assaults should be decent at Ewar with passive scans, while Logi should use scanners for Ewar. This helps distinguish Assaults from Commandos, gives Assaults the option to fit some Ewar instead of just buffer, and allows the Logi to use equipment to support the team with Ewar. Yeah, as I read further through the thread I changed my mind on that too. Logi should be better at sharing information (squad support) but Assaults should be at least as good, if not better, at sensing (hunting). I think I would like to see all logi get a small boost to the active scanner, with the Gallente having a bigger bonus. (Actually I feel the same about all 4 racial equipment bonuses, but that is off topic.) Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4528	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:36:00 - [44] - Quote I like the suggestion of having your Profile be modified by distance. So the farther away someone is the lower their profile is. Then having a higher Precision means you can see people from farther away, and having a lower Profile means you can get closer before you are spotted. Then it would not be a binary relationship of being detected or not being detected. Having a lower Profile would always mean you can get closer, and having a higher Precision would always mean being able to see farther. But those advantages would be relative. Being able to get 5 m closer without being sensed might mean you can get within 3m or a Sentinel, while at the same time meaning you can get within 20m of an Amarr Scout. It would mean that every Profile Dampener, every level of the Profile Dampening Skill, every Precision Enhancer, and every level of the Precision skill would give you a benefit against every suit. It would no longer be that they see you or donGÇÖt see you, it would be a question of when they see you as you approach them. (Credit to Vesta Opalus) Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4528	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:50:00 - [45] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I can't get behind anything that will make all scouts visible even when they are making a significant sacrifice to max their dampening. Especially when the only sacrifice the Gal Logi needs to scan them is carry a single piece of equipment. I don't mind the concept of giving assaults and logis a reason to use EWAR. That is reasonable. Shared passives need to go, and the great majority of players will agree on that. As a minja, who was not able to play Alpha to Charlie because of EWAR changes that negated my role completely, I cannot get behind any math that doesn't enable a scout to be invisible with significant sacrifice. A scanned scout is a dead scout, period. If this is intended as a fix for tanked scouts, there are much more precise measures to do so without obliterating all other scouts roles too. See I think this is part of the problem. Thinking that a non-specialized suit should be able to defeat a specialized suit at its own game. Minmatar scout is NOT a dampening SPECIALIZED suit. The Gallente/Caldari scouts are. The Gallente logi is a SPECIALIZED scanning suit. It SHOULD be able to scan a minmatar/amarr scouts, given adequate skill investment and equipment. If you look at the interplay here, all scouts can always defeat the active scans of other non-specialized suits, but to beat the specialized suit you need to bring a specialized suit of your own. That's the way balance works. I am totally open to discussing changes in the individual scanners (like the Creodon Flux is just stupid), but like I said, that should be in a different thread. Why do you think a a non-specialized suit should be able to defeat a specialized suit? EDIT: Now if you were to suggest that the person scanning (i.e. lets say a galllogi) should light up on the scout's tacnet when scanned, I would say thats a good idea and makes sense, but I am not sure that is possible without a client update. I think he means that his Nova Knifing Minmatar Scout was not able to sneak up on a Sentinel if there happened to be another Scout in the area. His specialized suit was rendered useless. Now if he was complaining about not being able to sneak up on a Caldari or Amarr Scout suit, then you would have a point. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Iron Toast Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 7	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:52:00 - [46] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Oh and one last thing, for this to work cloaks should give no dampening bonus. It actually never made sense why they would do any but INCREASE your profile anyway. Just a crazy idea - what if cloaks had their current reduction while active but drastically increased profile during cooldown?
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 81	Posted - 2014.10.09 20:24:00 - [47] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I agree that Passive Scans should not be shared on the Tac-Net. However, I think visual scans should be shared. When you aim near an enemy (enough to get their health bar to display) their position should be shared on the Tac-Net, and it should continue to be shared until you lose visual contact. This would allow Scouts to more actively play their GÇ£ScoutGÇ¥ role, by pointing their weapon at enemies to let their squad know the enemyGÇÖs position. It would also give Snipers back their over-watch role. Active scanners should be shared. Now that we got rid of the 360 scans, I think that should work. I am for passive scans sharing with the squad, but I have to say, this is the best compromise I've ever heard suggested. Love it.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 250	Posted - 2014.10.09 20:29:00 - [48] - Quote Making scout wear skills dependant on fitting mods would do a lot to fix things. This is an idea that CCP has previously supported. For example, if Gallente scouts replaced their precision bonus to a bonus to precision enhancers, an assault suit with one dampener could avoid Gallente scout scans unless they run precision mods. Precision modded Gallente scouts are rare as they only have a minor bonus to it and generally shield extenders are much more useful in their limited high slots. Congratulations, an easy way to counter the most common type of scout on the field. If the same was done to all scout dampening and precision bonuses it would do a lot to improve balance: Amarr only really make good of their precision bonus by using precision mods so not much change there, Gallente and Caldari scout would have to sacrifice tank to maintain their edge in dampening, Assaults could easily avoid passive scans from common scout fits, Caldari scout's amazing scan range would only be accessible with the use of some of their limited low slots, forcing them to sacrifice dampening or armour, A scout that really wants to be the EWAR McDaddy would be forced to sacrifice significant tank to do it (kind of like now but without shortcuts). The important thing is though, assaults and logis would be able to counter scout EWAR by fitting a dampener. Unless the scout sacrifices tank to fit precision, which would (in my opinion) remain rare, allowing smart assaults to be more viable vs scouts.
Jathniel G I A N T 1182	Posted - 2014.10.09 20:33:00 - [49] - Quote After reading the rest of the thread, I see what you're trying to accomplish but I still think the premise is wrong. I see what you're saying about the logi and assault suits detecting or not, but you're not allowing for a margin of difference. As it stands with your numbers, any scout not running skill level 5 precision or dampening is as good as dead, and any logi/assault not running skill level 5 isn't any better off than they are now. With your numbers, players would get no return on their SP investment until it's actually maxed. Current EWAR, is balanced in such a way that stealth and detection are viable as soon as the initial investment is made in the Scout suit. (EWAR is otherwise fine for medium suits vs. medium suits.) How can you say that EWAR is broken for requiring a Scout suit? That's like saying CQC is broken because Heavies are better in a rumble. The anomoly that I actually see with Scouts is shotgun spam. Knives are not used nearly as much. But Scouts with shotguns are even knocking Heavies out of their element with the spam. With your numbers, sharing ewar with medium suits is what will happen (remember the large margin of varying Scan levels), and that will render ALL Scouts but the Gal scout obsolete (although the Cal scout will still be useful for scan range and squad sharing capability). Speaking in favor of squad share, this feature helps make scouts desirable to have in your squad, and this is why dampening trumps precision. Because so much scanning is encouraged, only the scouts should be able to bypass it, it is their role. It is good this way. Again, the big problem is Gallente Shotgun scouts running about with impunity. There is NO risk for them, with ZERO detection. The danger should not come from a sweeping change to scan and profile values. A simple guaranteed detection zone, on SHARED vision, will be enough. No more than 3 meters in radius around every suit. Getting the kill in close quarters should get you detected by the victims buddies who are literally RIGHT THERE; this will force scouts to be more sneaky, going for isolated or smaller groups more often. As for your point on non-specialized vs. specialized suits... Remember, the gal logi is a specialized MEDIUM suit. Meaning it's specialization is vs. medium suits. Which is very good. All Scouts are specialized stealth suits... and within the Scout suits are specialized suits designed to face them. Squad share is a good thing. This is a feature, not an imbalance. I like it in Dust, and I want to make sure it is in Legion. It rewards teamwork, it is better than verbal communication for relaying an enemies position, and it works especially well with line-of-sight detection. Do not dismiss that as being unfair. We want to encourage teamwork in the game. Scouts are a vital part of maximizing squad shared vision, and it ensures that the bonuses of EWAR that a Scout has, are shared with the other suits. if we get rid of squad share, Scouts will become lone-wolf suits, with little to no reason to have in squad. I LIKE seeing my squad improve in combat performance because they are aware of hostile positions on their radar. If the other side, comes to a firefight blind, that is THEIR fault. Why should a team that is making use of every tool and feature available to them, be prevented from using it, because someone else is too hard-headed to do the same? This is fundamentally wrong. Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 250	Posted - 2014.10.09 20:38:00 - [50] - Quote Or, in the case where my previous post makes little difference you could do this: Reduce the alpha of shotguns. Do this by: Reduce damage Increase range Increase rate of fire Increase clip size Increase reload speed Bonus effects: Shotguns viable on assaults Nova Knives take their rightful place as the sneaky assassin weapon of choice. Extra note: Anyone that wants to nerf nova knives can (commence ban evasion) receive a stern telling off and mild humiliation on the internet.

Boot Booter Pure Evil. Capital Punishment. 932	Posted - 2014.10.09 22:14:00 - [51] - Quote EWar will never be balanced until it stops functioning as a wallhack. Scouts will never be balanced until their regen is reduced. What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1906	Posted - 2014.10.09 22:32:00 - [52] - Quote Why not just make the shotgun **** in between each shot? We already have the animation (its at the end of the reload animation) Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
TEC N9ne Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:12:00 - [53] - Quote You do realize that removing the shared passive scans would completely remove the purpose of having AK.0 and CK.0 scouts in a PC at all, you would then have the skillpoints that I spent into my scout suit rendered useless. What up all
poison Diego Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 454	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:24:00 - [54] - Quote Removing the shared passive scan will remove the role of both the amarr and caldari scouts and sounds really ridiculous. The amarr will become utterly useless once more, especially if you are talking about that assaults should see scouts with some pathetic precision enhancers. I give up R.I.P ADS getting more proficiency in the shotgun so I can kill every single f*ck I see using swarmlauncher
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4678	Posted - 2014.10.10 01:23:00 - [55] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: All scouts should be visible at some point, otherwise how do we stop the ninja shotgun bs that ruins games when someone uses it? Do you like having someone running around who cant be seen or detected in any way who can also one shot the vast majority of suits? Do you think its fair or good gameplay that the only "counter" to invisible one shotting scouts is to also run a damped scout and depend on dumb luck for him to run into your vision before you run into his? Then half the time when he does run into your vision your own weapons fire makes it very likely that he can evade you just due to weapon flash making the stupidly variable cloak effect practically invisible for long enough for him to slip away? Also that "sacrifice" dampening/cloaking suits make is no sacrifice at all. You are sacrificing survivability for MORE SURVIVABILITY. That's not a sacrifice, its an investment. Also I disagree that passive scans shouldnt be shared. Passive scan fits actually sacrifice a great deal more than damp fits, because they can be easily detected by anyone and have very low hp values at the same time. Passive scans can frequently be outdpsed and out healthed by comparable dampening suits. The all or nothing EWAR we have now is the real reason we cant balance EWAR right now, if you see my post above thats an actual workable fix that puts a mechanics based counter to shotgun cloakers and at the same time gives damp/cloak scouts the ability to minimize the vulnerability the precision counter inflicts on them. I want to emphasize that there is NO COUNTER to a scout using cloaks and dampeners in the game right now that isnt using the same fit and depending on dumb luck. A running cloaked scout is visible. Period. They may be less visible, but they are visible, especially in darker settings where they glow. Plus, cloaks have a timer, and require at least 50% of that timer to be full in order to use the cloak. There are many more counters than having to run another scout. An HMG heavy would be a prime example. They can't be one shoted, they simply turn after the first shot, and spray the HMG, and that is one dead scout. Squads are another way. That shotgun scout is going to be much less successful when encountering a group because it is very likely a team member will see the scout before they are even able to get off a shot, even while cloaked (you know, with their eyes, because those should matter as much if not more than the tacnet). If not, then that shotgun blast and a dead red will be readily apparent. That equals a dead scout. Jumping and backpeddaling is also a good counter. That shotgun only has a limited range. After the first shot, jumping while backing up and using whatever light weapon you choose is a good way to kill the scout before they can get off a second shot. PLCs and MDs are great because of their splash damage, which given a dampened scouts HP is rather effective. If that shotgun scout has enough HP that they would easily survive an attack, then they are not so dampened that they can't be scanned, or they are awfully slow. If scouts were that OP, PC would be full of them instead of heavy/logi combos. But in PC, that is the meta, because that is much more powerful. TL:DR There are lots of counters, your eyes and being conscientious enough to check out your flanks and back are just two. Not to mention working with others, and heavies. If there are any fixes to be done, focusing the bonuses to modules is a good idea, as is doubling the speed penalty on armor plates for scouts. Making all scouts assault lights is not an answer to the problem. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1060	Posted - 2014.10.10 01:56:00 - [56] - Quote As long as i can put 2-3 damps on my gal scout and not be seen im good with the changes Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2504	Posted - 2014.10.10 03:05:00 - [57] - Quote Your blatant stupidity and lack of knowledge on how to balance anything as well as your bias towards politically nerfing scouts to even more useless than they were before they got buffed is not only frustrating, but is, quite simply, painful to read. You are a prime example of why it helps to have some historical or any kind of knowledge whatsoever about this game before you post. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2504	Posted - 2014.10.10 03:06:00 - [58] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Or, in the case where my previous post makes little difference you could do this: Reduce the alpha of shotguns. Do this by: Reduce damage Increase range Increase rate of fire Increase clip size Increase reload speed Bonus effects: Shotguns viable on assaults Nova Knives take their rightful place as the sneaky assassin weapon of choice. Extra note: Anyone that wants to nerf nova knives can (commence ban evasion) receive a stern telling off and mild humiliation on the internet. You understand this would be OP AF right..? The only thing balancing the SG right now is that after the first shot or two it becomes useless "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2504	Posted - 2014.10.10 03:25:00 - [59] - Quote All scouts are EWAR specialized suits, and thus should be the masters of eWAR in almost every way. Sentinels are CQC combat specialized suits, and thus should be the masters of CQC combat in almost every way. Assaults are mid range skirmishing specialized suits, with the versatility to go from mid range to long range to short range at a moments notice, and the excel at this in almost every way. Logis are support specialized suits and thus should be the masters of support in almost every way. Commandos are suppression specialists and thus should be the masters of suppression in almost every way "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2504	Posted - 2014.10.10 03:28:00 - [60] - Quote Dampening is a scout thing. You obviously haven't been around very long, but the old bonus used to be 5% dampening as the ROLE bonus. Scouts should not have to sacrifice much at a maximum level to dodge scans. Thats something that assaults and heavies should have to do because they have more HP and more offensive oriented bonuses. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor

Izlare Lenix Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1044	Posted - 2014.10.10 12:09:00 - [61] - Quote I really hope CCP is smarter than the OP because if scouts are rendered useless again, the vast majority of players will go hmg heavy. If you recall long ago during the dark days of logi slayers they made up a majority of the battlefield because they were the best killers. If scouts get kicked in the nuts hmg heavies will be everywhere because they are the best killers. And with scouts roles reduced the only heavy spam counter will be more heavy spam. I'm not saying it's perfect now but at last there is variety. Two teams of mostly HMGs and a few logis would get boring very quickly. Gun control is not about guns...it's about control. The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5646	Posted - 2014.10.10 12:21:00 - [62] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: I really hope CCP is smarter than the OP ... There is no question. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3544	Posted - 2014.10.10 14:03:00 - [63] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: I really hope CCP is smarter than the OP because if scouts are rendered useless again, the vast majority of players will go hmg heavy. If you recall long ago during the dark days of logi slayers they made up a majority of the battlefield because they were the best killers. If scouts get kicked in the nuts hmg heavies will be everywhere because they are the best killers. And with scouts roles reduced the only heavy spam counter will be more heavy spam. I'm not saying it's perfect now but at last there is variety. Two teams of mostly HMGs and a few logis would get boring very quickly. If this becomes a thing I'm going to flush points Into caldari and gallente assaults annd demonstrate loudly why anyone who thinks HMGs arr the "best killers" is a godamn idiot with no imagination. I've been using the sentinel suits since chromosome and they have GLARING and OBVIOUS weaknesses that assaults can exploit and capitalize on. But because EHP>all to this community anything more complicated than "run at him and hold the trigger down!" Is a little higher difficulty than most of you are capable. The number of times I've had some dumbass try to gunslinger me down at 10 meters is mind boggling. Then they come here and ***** that the HMG is OP. This has been the pattern since closed beta.
Izlare Lenix Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1045	Posted - 2014.10.10 14:44:00 - [64] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: I really hope CCP is smarter than the OP because if scouts are rendered useless again, the vast majority of players will go hmg heavy. If you recall long ago during the dark days of logi slayers they made up a majority of the battlefield because they were the best killers. If scouts get kicked in the nuts hmg heavies will be everywhere because they are the best killers. And with scouts roles reduced the only heavy spam counter will be more heavy spam. I'm not saying it's perfect now but at last there is variety. Two teams of mostly HMGs and a few logis would get boring very quickly. If this becomes a thing I'm going to flush points Into caldari and gallente assaults annd demonstrate loudly why anyone who thinks HMGs arr the "best killers" is a godamn idiot with no imagination. I've been using the sentinel suits since chromosome and they have GLARING and OBVIOUS weaknesses that assaults can exploit and capitalize on. But because EHP>all to this community anything more complicated than "run at him and hold the trigger down!" Is a little higher difficulty than most of you are capable. The number of times I've had some dumbass try to gunslinger me down at 10 meters is mind boggling. Then they come here and ***** that the HMG is OP. This has been the pattern since closed beta. Almost all of the objective based maps in this game are cqc. I'd love to see how well your assault suit holds up to several boundless and six kin hmgs. Gun control is not about guns...it's about control. The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3544	Posted - 2014.10.10 15:01:00 - [65] - Quote Every cqc objective in this game has areas where you can get an elevation advantage that is outside Hmg Optimal and well within any rifle's. You can pin a fatty inside his objective and make him helpless to blueberries, and if you happen to be ace with a laser rifle you can make anyone's life hell, not just shield suits.. Also scouts aren't the only mad bombers. I'm very familiar with every single spot you can drop RE on fattiea. I have been killed that way all the time in my maxed sent suits. You don't even need to master the frisbee. Patience has an amazing effect when combined with the assault suit. Playing at 40m + pretty much neuters fatties and almost every hiding spot has a place where you can take free shots at them from outside HMG optimal. Playing a sentinel constantly kind of makes me ridiculously familiar with how fatties die. No RE are not the most common method. Its almost always getting ganged up or someone who refuses to close and instead finds a better angle.
Izlare Lenix Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1045	Posted - 2014.10.10 15:10:00 - [66] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Every cqc objective in this game has areas where you can get an elevation advantage that is outside Hmg Optimal and well within any rifle's. You can pin a fatty inside his objective and make him helpless to blueberries, and if you happen to be ace with a laser rifle you can make anyone's life hell, not just shield suits.. Also scouts aren't the only mad bombers. I'm very familiar with every single spot you can drop RE on fattiea. I have been killed that way all the time in my maxed sent suits. You don't even need to master the frisbee. Patience has an amazing effect when combined with the assault suit. Playing at 40m + pretty much neuters fatties and almost every hiding spot has a place where you can take free shots at them from outside HMG optimal. Playing a sentinel constantly kind of makes me ridiculously familiar with how fatties die. No RE are not the most common method. Its almost always getting ganged up or someone who refuses to close and instead finds a better angle. You must have also forgotten the terrible past when tons of sentinels ran around with RRs. On the very few maps where players can outrange an hmg you can be damn sure more RRs will be fit to fatty suits. And lets not forget the bolt pistol with its massive range and ability to kill almost every suit with three shoots or less. Gun control is not about guns...it's about control. The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1139	Posted - 2014.10.10 15:21:00 - [67] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: I really hope CCP is smarter than the OP because if scouts are rendered useless again, the vast majority of players will go hmg heavy. If you recall long ago during the dark days of logi slayers they made up a majority of the battlefield because they were the best killers. If scouts get kicked in the nuts hmg heavies will be everywhere because they are the best killers. And with scouts roles reduced the only heavy spam counter will be more heavy spam. I'm not saying it's perfect now but at last there is variety. Two teams of mostly HMGs and a few logis would get boring very quickly. Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Dampening is a scout thing. You obviously haven't been around very long, but the old bonus used to be 5% dampening as the ROLE bonus. Scouts should not have to sacrifice much at a maximum level to dodge scans. Thats something that assaults and heavies should have to do because they have more HP and more offensive oriented bonuses. Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Your blatant stupidity and lack of knowledge on how to balance anything as well as your bias towards politically nerfing scouts to even more useless than they were before they got buffed is not only frustrating, but is, quite simply, painful to read. You are a prime example of why it helps to have some historical or any kind of knowledge whatsoever about this game before you post. So it is post like these that show me people prefer to hang on to their OP crap than to talk about balance. I love how you guys don't come up with any argument at all, and of course there is absolutely no admitting that scouts... as they are right now, are completely broken. For instance, check out the underlined bit... it is so one dimensional it isn't funny. This basically boils down to "wanting to have your cake and eat it too." Anyway, most of the rebuttals I am reading sound exactly like the responses I got from tankers about broken swarms, or CR users after they came out, or Logistics before the nerf. "Don't nerf my OP stuff" is what it boils down to. I can pretty much guarantee that the same people defending scouts right now defend the rail rifle, defended vehicles in 1.7, and defended logistics pre-nerf. CCP has the metrics and I am positive they reflect that scouts are far and away the most popular suit among players 10+ mil sp (those who know the game works.) To sum up, the OP details a method of fixing ewar, where scouts can still be the very best at any one category of ewar, but not all of them at the same time while still being versatile, you know kind of like logistics used to be (best at many things at the same time). Fixing EWAR
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3544	Posted - 2014.10.10 15:24:00 - [68] - Quote I haven't forgotten anything. I remember every exploit fit and have a counter ready to kill it in my active suit inventory.
Izlare Lenix Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1045	Posted - 2014.10.10 15:33:00 - [69] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: I really hope CCP is smarter than the OP because if scouts are rendered useless again, the vast majority of players will go hmg heavy. If you recall long ago during the dark days of logi slayers they made up a majority of the battlefield because they were the best killers. If scouts get kicked in the nuts hmg heavies will be everywhere because they are the best killers. And with scouts roles reduced the only heavy spam counter will be more heavy spam. I'm not saying it's perfect now but at last there is variety. Two teams of mostly HMGs and a few logis would get boring very quickly. Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Dampening is a scout thing. You obviously haven't been around very long, but the old bonus used to be 5% dampening as the ROLE bonus. Scouts should not have to sacrifice much at a maximum level to dodge scans. Thats something that assaults and heavies should have to do because they have more HP and more offensive oriented bonuses. Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Your blatant stupidity and lack of knowledge on how to balance anything as well as your bias towards politically nerfing scouts to even more useless than they were before they got buffed is not only frustrating, but is, quite simply, painful to read. You are a prime example of why it helps to have some historical or any kind of knowledge whatsoever about this game before you post. So it is post like these that show me people prefer to hang on to their OP crap than to talk about balance. I love how you guys don't come up with any argument at all, and of course there is absolutely no admitting that scouts... as they are right now, are completely broken. For instance, check out the underlined bit... it is so one dimensional it isn't funny. This basically boils down to "wanting to have your cake and eat it too." Anyway, most of the rebuttals I am reading sound exactly like the responses I got from tankers about broken swarms, or CR users after they came out, or Logistics before the nerf. "Don't nerf my OP stuff" is what it boils down to. I can pretty much guarantee that the same people defending scouts right now defend the rail rifle, defended vehicles in 1.7, and defended logistics pre-nerf. CCP has the metrics and I am positive they reflect that scouts are far and away the most popular suit among players 10+ mil sp (those who know the game works.) To sum up, the OP details a method of fixing ewar, where scouts can still be the very best at any one category of ewar, but not all of them at the same time while still being versatile, you know kind of like logistics used to be (best at many things at the same time). I played four PCs last night. Between our two teams there were probably 16 hmg heavies, 8 scouts and the rest logi, ads and tank. Heavies are way more useful and used more often in competitive play than scouts. Nerfing scouts well only INCREASE the amount of heavies on the battlefield. That is my point. Gun control is not about guns...it's about control. The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
poison Diego Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 455	Posted - 2014.10.10 21:51:00 - [70] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: I really hope CCP is smarter than the OP because if scouts are rendered useless again, the vast majority of players will go hmg heavy. If you recall long ago during the dark days of logi slayers they made up a majority of the battlefield because they were the best killers. If scouts get kicked in the nuts hmg heavies will be everywhere because they are the best killers. And with scouts roles reduced the only heavy spam counter will be more heavy spam. I'm not saying it's perfect now but at last there is variety. Two teams of mostly HMGs and a few logis would get boring very quickly. Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Dampening is a scout thing. You obviously haven't been around very long, but the old bonus used to be 5% dampening as the ROLE bonus. Scouts should not have to sacrifice much at a maximum level to dodge scans. Thats something that assaults and heavies should have to do because they have more HP and more offensive oriented bonuses. Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Your blatant stupidity and lack of knowledge on how to balance anything as well as your bias towards politically nerfing scouts to even more useless than they were before they got buffed is not only frustrating, but is, quite simply, painful to read. You are a prime example of why it helps to have some historical or any kind of knowledge whatsoever about this game before you post. So it is post like these that show me people prefer to hang on to their OP crap than to talk about balance. I love how you guys don't come up with any argument at all, and of course there is absolutely no admitting that scouts... as they are right now, are completely broken. For instance, check out the underlined bit... it is so one dimensional it isn't funny. This basically boils down to "wanting to have your cake and eat it too." Anyway, most of the rebuttals I am reading sound exactly like the responses I got from tankers about broken swarms, or CR users after they came out, or Logistics before the nerf. "Don't nerf my OP stuff" is what it boils down to. I can pretty much guarantee that the same people defending scouts right now defend the rail rifle, defended vehicles in 1.7, and defended logistics pre-nerf. CCP has the metrics and I am positive they reflect that scouts are far and away the most popular suit among players 10+ mil sp (those who know the game works.) To sum up, the OP details a method of fixing ewar, where scouts can still be the very best at any one category of ewar, but not all of them at the same time while still being versatile, you know kind of like logistics used to be (best at many things at the same time). Wow, I am totally done discussing scout balance with the guy who wrote this. I agree with some of the thing you are saying but if you are making scouts unusable, in PC there will be nothing but HMGs and slayer logis on the field AGAIN! this is a cycle. then they will moan about an hmg nerf, the assault will get more buffed, heavies nerfed, logis absolutely altered and scouts irrelevant. PC will get so boring and pub matches even more unfair to new players. If I was a new player I would rather fight a low ehp scout than a full on heavy hands down. Scouts need a piece of dat nerf but nothing to drastic. I like your ideas of assaults being able to scan scouts using precision but removing shared passive scan is the worst idea of them all. It would paralize scouts roles as "intell-gatherer" and absolutely makes no sense what so ever why their main role should be taken away from them. I give up R.I.P ADS getting more proficiency in the shotgun so I can kill every single f*ck I see using swarmlauncher

Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 268	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:05:00 - [71] - Quote Having thought about this more I am strongly of the opinion that EWAR is as balanced as it is going to be and any changes are far more likely to break things than improve anything.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 362	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:20:00 - [72] - Quote @OP On the surface I think this is a good suggestion, so long as the AmarrScout bonus overlap is resolved, Shared Squad Vision STAYS, and the Cloak KEEPS its dampening values. All in all I think EWAR is one of the best elements to this game, especially considering the science far-future fiction setting, and increasing the availibility access for players is a good thing. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1140	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:09:00 - [73] - Quote poison Diego wrote: I agree with some of the thing you are saying but if you are making scouts unusable, in PC there will be nothing but HMGs and slayer logis on the field AGAIN! this is a cycle. then they will moan about an hmg nerf, the assault will get more buffed, heavies nerfed, logis absolutely altered and scouts irrelevant. PC will get so boring and pub matches even more unfair to new players. If I was a new player I would rather fight a low ehp scout than a full on heavy hands down. Scouts need a piece of dat nerf but nothing to drastic. I like your ideas of assaults being able to scan scouts using precision but removing shared passive scan is the worst idea of them all. It would paralize scouts roles as "intell-gatherer" and absolutely makes no sense what so ever why their main role should be taken away from them. I do understand that the scouts have a roles they fulfill, but they are way way too many at the present, and they fufill some of those roles to the exclusion of the other suits. On the shared PASSIVE vision, the problem is it makes scanners obsolete. Why would you want a limited cone of vision that shows for a smal period of time that is weak on all but one suit, when you can have something that is stronger, always on, envelops 360 degrees, and you can do it while cloaked. Varoth Drac wrote: Having thought about this more I am strongly of the opinion that EWAR is as balanced as it is going to be and any changes are far more likely to break things than improve anything. How is it balanced that the only participants in EWAR are scouts? Fixing EWAR
poison Diego Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 455	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:18:00 - [74] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: @OP On the surface I think this is a good suggestion, so long as the AmarrScout bonus overlap is resolved, Shared Squad Vision STAYS, and the Cloak KEEPS its dampening values. All in all I think EWAR is one of the best elements to this game, especially considering the science far-future fiction setting, and increasing the availibility access for players is a good thing. Yes an Ewar is not only for the scouts, Ive been using it on assaults as well and they rock the dampening. Slap 2 damps(3 to be sure) and run around scouts for days. My best ewar assaylt fits: Minmatar Assault all those fits have more than 500 shields/ 750 ehp and Ive done amazingly well using them. (3x damp,kinkat) (3x cplx shields,enh shield) Boundless CR, ADV breach scrP(can fit proto sidearm), core locus and ishukone hive (2xdamps,2xrange) (4xcplx shield) Kalakiota RR, breach SMG, core locus and ishukone hive Troll cloak fits: (2xdamps, cplx CPU, cplx PG) (3x cplx shield, enh shield) Kalakiota RR, ADV breach SMG, core locus, cloak field (2damps, cplx CPU, cplx PG) (2x cplx shield, 2x enh shield) Boundless CR, breach scrP, core locus, ADV cloak I give up R.I.P ADS getting more proficiency in the shotgun so I can kill every single f*ck I see using swarmlauncher
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 362	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:21:00 - [75] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: poison Diego wrote: I agree with some of the thing you are saying but if you are making scouts unusable, in PC there will be nothing but HMGs and slayer logis on the field AGAIN! this is a cycle. then they will moan about an hmg nerf, the assault will get more buffed, heavies nerfed, logis absolutely altered and scouts irrelevant. PC will get so boring and pub matches even more unfair to new players. If I was a new player I would rather fight a low ehp scout than a full on heavy hands down. Scouts need a piece of dat nerf but nothing to drastic. I like your ideas of assaults being able to scan scouts using precision but removing shared passive scan is the worst idea of them all. It would paralize scouts roles as "intell-gatherer" and absolutely makes no sense what so ever why their main role should be taken away from them. I do understand that the scouts have a roles they fulfill, but they are way way too many at the present, and they fufill some of those roles to the exclusion of the other suits. On the shared PASSIVE vision, the problem is it makes scanners obsolete. Why would you want a limited cone of vision that shows for a smal period of time that is weak on all but one suit, when you can have something that is stronger, always on, envelops 360 degrees, and you can do it while cloaked. Active Scans > Passive Scans because 1) Waaay more range and 2) Detection sensitivity is NOT based on the base profile of he user. The benefits to passives don't become worth a ** until the mods are stacked and even then really between the two they balance out fine. Varoth Drac wrote:** Having thought about this more I am strongly of the opinion that EWAR is as balanced as it is going to be and any changes are far more likely to break things than improve anything. How is it balanced that the only participants in EWAR are scouts? They aren't. They just have the best innate base stats for it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
poison Diego Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 455	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:25:00 - [76] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: poison Diego wrote: I agree with some of the thing you are saying but if you are making scouts unusable, in PC there will be nothing but HMGs and slayer logis on the field AGAIN! this is a cycle. then they will moan about an hmg nerf, the assault will get more buffed, heavies nerfed, logis absolutely altered and scouts irrelevant. PC will get so boring and pub matches even more unfair to new players. If I was a new player I would rather fight a low ehp scout than a full on heavy hands down. Scouts need a piece of dat nerf but nothing to drastic. I like your ideas of assaults being able to scan scouts using precision but removing shared passive scan is the worst idea of them all. It would paralize scouts roles as "intell-gatherer" and absolutely makes no sense what so ever why their main role should be taken away from them. I do understand that the scouts have a roles they fulfill, but they are way way too many at the present, and they fufill some of those roles to the exclusion of the other suits. On the shared PASSIVE vision, the problem is it makes scanners obsolete. Why would you want a limited cone of vision that shows for a smal period of time that is weak on all but one suit, when you can have something that is stronger, always on, envelops 360 degrees, and you can do it while cloaked. Varoth Drac wrote: Having thought about this more I am strongly of the opinion that EWAR is as balanced as it is going to be and any changes are far more likely to break things than improve anything. How is it balanced that the only participants in EWAR are scouts? I think the solution is rather to buff the active scanners than nerf passives. Passive dont light people up like actives do and the range is pretty pathetic for scanning full enemy team. I give up R.I.P ADS getting more proficiency in the shotgun so I can kill every single f*ck I see using swarmlauncher
TEC N9ne Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 3	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:45:00 - [77] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: poison Diego wrote: I agree with some of the thing you are saying but if you are making scouts unusable, in PC there will be nothing but HMGs and slayer logis on the field AGAIN! this is a cycle. then they will moan about an hmg nerf, the assault will get more buffed, heavies nerfed, logis absolutely altered and scouts irrelevant. PC will get so boring and pub matches even more unfair to new players. If I was a new player I would rather fight a low ehp scout than a full on heavy hands down. Scouts need a piece of dat nerf but nothing to drastic. I like your ideas of assaults being able to scan scouts using precision but removing shared passive scan is the worst idea of them all. It would paralize scouts roles as "intell-gatherer" and absolutely makes no sense what so ever why their main role should be taken away from them. I do understand that the scouts have a roles they fulfill, but they are way way too many at the present, and they fufill some of those roles to the exclusion of the other suits. On the shared PASSIVE vision, the problem is it makes scanners obsolete. Why would you want a limited cone of vision that shows for a small period of time that is weak on all but one suit, when you can have something that is stronger, always on, envelops 360 degrees, and you can do it while cloaked. Okay so I understand, and to an extent agree, with your statement about active scanners. When compared to my passive scans the active is useless, I had an idea that I personally thought would work out but when I suggested it to some players I know I got mixed response but consider this, what if passive scans shared with squad were to remain and the active scans were switched so that the active scans were shared with the entire team? Yes there would be pros and cons... The pro being that the AK.0 and CK.0 scout would still be useful in certain roles and situations for gathering Intel for their squad in PCs, which would most likely be on the outside points and some compound situations, as well as giving the active scanners, mainly Gal logis, having their main place in compound letters in a PC. The con here would be a Gal Logi putting double scanners on and sitting next to a depot keeping a compound scanned the entire game. I believe this would be the best solution for active scanners because the con for this is somewhat problematic but still tolerable to an extent, where in the case of removing shared passive scans would outright remove certain suits roles.from a competitive battlefield rather than introducing some more variety to battle. What up all
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5696	Posted - 2014.10.11 00:22:00 - [78] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: How is it balanced that the only participants in EWAR are scouts? Fun Time ... with Facts! Assault + 1 Cmp Dampener (34 dB): Dodges max-skilled passive scans of CA and MN Scout. Assault + 2 Cmp Dampener (26 dB): Dodges max-skilled passives scans of all Scouts (even Amarr). Logi + 1 Cmp Precision Amp (32 dB): Scans all undampened MN and CA Scouts. Logi + 2 Cmp Precision Amp (27 dB): Scans all undampened Scouts (even Gallente). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1140	Posted - 2014.10.11 01:41:00 - [79] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: How is it balanced that the only participants in EWAR are scouts? Fun Time ... with Facts! Assault + 1 Cmp Dampener (34 dB): Dodges max-skilled passive scans of CA and MN Scout. Assault + 2 Cmp Dampener (26 dB): Dodges max-skilled passives scans of all Scouts (even Amarr). Logi + 1 Cmp Precision Amp (32 dB): Scans any undampened MN or CA Scout. Logi + 2 Cmp Precision Amp (27 dB): Scans all undampened Scouts (even Gallente). Bonus Question: Does a Logi running 3 Precision Amps scan at the exact same intensity as MN or CA Scout running 2 Cmp Precision Amps? Time for selective facts you mean, lets fill those out shall we? PRECISION The logi: So the logi, the next closest suit to the scouts, requires two precision enhancers to scan all undampened scouts, 4 to just barely scan AM/minmatar with 1 damp, and never be able to scan a gal/caldari w/ 1 complex damp.... even if it fit 5 complex enhancers. Your so called balanced EWAR is completely exposed by just one module on a scout..... one. One module negates 3+ modules on another suit... just one. Beyond one and there is absolutely no interplay at all. Oh WAIT! What happens if we throw a proto cloak on that? Oh, 2 complex precision enhancers to pick up only the amarr/minmatar scouts, 3 complex precision enhancers to pick up the cal/gallente. Add one dampner to either one and a logi will never pick them up... ever. Oh yeah and even if someone is looking RIGHT AT YOU you do not show on their tacnet..... Yep that is not interplay at all. The assault: An assault will never be able to scan a scout who only commits to 1 complex damp... ever. It takes 3 enhancers to just barely pick up cal/gal scouts with nothing fitted for ewar. Oh WAIT! You will never pick up an undampened cal/gal scout with a proto cloak in an assault (well maybe with 5 precision enhancers.) Still no interplay here. Range The assault: An assault will require 3 modules to scan at the close to the same range as a scout does with no skills at all in scan range. ~~Oh what great interplay~~ The Logi A logi will require 1 module to be just over am/gel/min scouts... it will require a little over two modules to scan as far as the cal does. This is the ONE and only time that there is some type of interplay... Dampening The assault and Logi: One complex damp will make these suits not show on tacnet for only the Caldari/Minmatar scouts. 2 complex dampners and you are still easily picked up by the amarr scout with 1 complex enhancer... the gallente JUST BARELY missing you. 3 complex dampeners and the amarr scout still sees you with 2 complex enhancers. At 4 complex dampeners you are invisible. OH RIGHT! No cloak... that means you still show up if seen on tacnet....... and with 4 dampneners on you die in a heartbeat because all of the maps are wide open, and you run slow, and you only run for short distances, and your hitbox is huge..... So what did we learn? 1 complex damp and proto cloak scouts can ignore medium suits except for the gall-logi... if it is within 100m.... and 60 degrees.... for 5 seconds out of 40..... There is no sacrifice here. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5700	Posted - 2014.10.11 02:16:00 - [80] - Quote You claimed that only Scouts can participate in EWAR. I've demonstrated that your claim is false. Why are you flaming? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1140	Posted - 2014.10.11 04:12:00 - [81] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: You claimed that only Scouts can participate in EWAR. Great, now you are going to be pedantic like a teenager loosing an argument. Adipem Nothi wrote: I've demonstrated that your claim is false. Why are you flaming? No you haven't. Like I said, you cherry picked some examples, and I just showed you how there is absolutely no interplay here. Go scout or go home for EWAR. The fact that you are trying to dispute this common knowledge with misleading cherry picked examples just shows that you have no interest in balance, only supremacy. Let me guess, you run a scout most of the time.... your bias is showing. Fixing EWAR
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4718	Posted - 2014.10.11 04:25:00 - [82] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: You claimed that only Scouts can participate in EWAR. Great, now you are going to be pedantic like a teenager losing an argument. Adipem Nothi wrote: I've demonstrated that your claim is false. Why are you flaming? No you haven't. Like I said, you cherry picked some examples, and I just showed you how there is absolutely no interplay here. Go scout or go home for EWAR. The fact that you are trying to dispute this common knowledge with misleading cherry picked examples just shows that you have no interest in balance, only supremacy. You think 1-2 lowslots is enough sacrifice for a suit to be beyond reproach. 1-2 lowslots dedicated is a middle of the ground jack of all trades fitting, and isn't worthy of being unchallengable. Let me guess, you run a scout most of the time.... your bias is showing. Considering he has readily worked with Rattati regarding scout balancing, and has offered reasonable solutions to situations like the Cal/Gal changes in Charlie, that essentially nerfed those two suits so Amarr and Minmatar could have a role, I think he is probably very level headed. Especially considering someone whose bias is so strong that you are willing to negate an entire role simply because it causes you problems. Remember, CCP has data that they can look to, and if they see that what you are complaining of isn't an issue, you really just come off as out of touch with what the real issue is. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5707	Posted - 2014.10.11 04:44:00 - [83] - Quote You think I'm losing this argument? Hit me up when you have something of substance to discuss. But know that if you need a page of text to pitch your point, you likely don't have a point worth pitching. So dig deep. And try to get your math straight next time. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1140	Posted - 2014.10.11 04:48:00 - [84] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: You claimed that only Scouts can participate in EWAR. Great, now you are going to be pedantic like a teenager losing an argument. Adipem Nothi wrote: I've demonstrated that your claim is false. Why are you flaming? No you haven't. Like I said, you cherry picked some examples, and I just showed you how there is absolutely no interplay here. Go scout or go home for EWAR. The fact that you are trying to dispute this common knowledge with misleading cherry picked examples just shows that you have no interest in balance, only supremacy. You think 1-2 lowslots is enough sacrifice for a suit to be beyond reproach. 1-2 lowslots dedicated is a middle of the ground jack of all trades fitting, and isn't worthy of being unchallengable. Let me guess, you run a scout most of the time.... your bias is showing. Considering he has readily worked with Rattati regarding scout balancing, and has offered reasonable solutions to situations like the Cal/Gal changes in Charlie, that essentially nerfed those two suits so Amarr and Minmatar could have a role, I think he is probably very level headed. Especially considering someone whose bias is so strong that you are willing to negate an entire role simply because it causes you problems. Remember, CCP has data that they can look to, and if they see that what you are complaining of isn't an issue, you really just come off as out of touch with what the real issue is. Not one person has shown how this is anyway negates a scout role.... Scouts can still be fully undetecable Scouts can still have amazing passive scanning ability (in both range and precision) Scouts can still be the fastest Scouts can still run the longest Scouts still have the smallest hitboxes Scouts still retain their extra equipment slot Scouts still retain equal damage to logi/assaults Scouts can still brick tank Scouts still have the highest default ewar stats scouts still have their insane shield regen Tell me, how exactly is this a HUGE nerf? It isn't, it just isn't a tiny adjustment that will do nothing in the current metagame, and that pisses of the newfound scout community. The only changes this proposes is not being able to do so many things at the same time. This proposal makes it so that to beat every other suit on the field in a catagory, a scout must sacrifice alot, rather than barely anything. Fixing EWAR
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4719	Posted - 2014.10.11 05:00:00 - [85] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: You claimed that only Scouts can participate in EWAR. Great, now you are going to be pedantic like a teenager losing an argument. Adipem Nothi wrote: I've demonstrated that your claim is false. Why are you flaming? No you haven't. Like I said, you cherry picked some examples, and I just showed you how there is absolutely no interplay here. Go scout or go home for EWAR. The fact that you are trying to dispute this common knowledge with misleading cherry picked examples just shows that you have no interest in balance, only supremacy. You think 1-2 lowslots is enough sacrifice for a suit to be beyond reproach. 1-2 lowslots dedicated is a middle of the ground jack of all trades fitting, and isn't worthy of being unchallengable. Let me guess, you run a scout most of the time.... your bias is showing. Considering he has readily worked with Rattati regarding scout balancing, and has offered reasonable solutions to situations like the Cal/Gal changes in Charlie, that essentially nerfed those two suits so Amarr and Minmatar could have a role, I think he is probably very level headed. Especially considering someone whose bias is so strong that you are willing to negate an entire role simply because it causes you problems. Remember, CCP has data that they can look to, and if they see that what you are complaining of isn't an issue, you really just come off as out of touch with what the real issue is. Not one person has shown how this is anyway negates a scout role.... Scouts can still be fully undetecable Scouts can still have amazing passive scanning ability (in both range and precision) Scouts can still be the fastest Scouts can still run the longest Scouts still have the smallest hitboxes Scouts still retain their extra equipment slot Scouts still retain equal damage to logi/assaults Scouts can still brick tank Scouts still have the highest default ewar stats scouts still have their insane shield regen Tell me, how exactly is this a HUGE nerf? It isn't, it just isn't a tiny adjustment that will do nothing in the current metagame, and that pisses of the newfound scout community. The only changes this proposes is not being able to do so many things at the same time. This proposal makes it so that to beat every other suit on the field in a catagory, a scout must sacrifice alot, rather than barely anything. There is ONE scout that doesn't have to sacrifice as much, and that is the Gal scout. This has a lot to do with their number of Low Slots, the greater utility of Lows, and the superiority of armor to shield modules. All the rest have to make a significant sacrifice in order to be invisible, and can only do so with a proto cloak active. It is already set up that way. A number of scouts spent days, if not longer, running through the numbers and making sure this happened. Adipem is a big reason that you don't see Gal scouts tanking 1000 HP and still being tacnet invisible and getting two shots off with a shotgun, and he RUNS the darn build. Yet, he made sure it was nerfed because it was a problem. At most, what needs to be done is to focus EWAR bonuses to mods, and/or double the speed penalty on plates just for scouts. A complete re work of EWAR is not necessary. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1140	Posted - 2014.10.11 05:01:00 - [86] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: You think I'm losing this argument? Hit me up when you have something of substance to discuss. But know that if you need a page of text to pitch your point, you likely don't have a point worth pitching. Dig deep. And try to get your math straight next time. I'm more than willing to help if you need your facts checked. My math is solid. I admit that I didn't know of CCP's altercation on how they have truncated everything for the last 11 years, but I admitted that part was wrong. It has been corrected and is 100% spot on now. You still haven't made one single solid argument against this. Your arguments have been: scouts have to sacrifice 1 maybe 2 whole slots to completely negate EWAR 2-3 complex precision mods on the next closest suit can pick up an UNDAMPENED SCOUT That is pretty much it, and believe it or not those points actually work in my favor, they show how completely out of whack EWAR is now. So, thanks I guess. In the end I have dealt with this type of pedantic argument before, it was from tankers when I proposed the swarm changes. They would troll, restate previously covered arguments, ignore data, and provide NO SOLID ALTERNATIVE. People were actually against buffing standard swarms and nova knives. Low and behold, standard and advanced swarms were buffed (hell proto swarms were even slightly nerfed), nova kinves were buffed. Come up with a compelling argument as to why the scouts shouldn't have to compete in EWAR or GTFO, I already have. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1140	Posted - 2014.10.11 05:07:00 - [87] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: There is ONE scout that doesn't have to sacrifice as much, and that is the Gal scout. This has a lot to do with their number of Low Slots, the greater utility of Lows, and the superiority of armor to shield modules. All the rest have to make a significant sacrifice in order to be invisible, and can only do so with a proto cloak active. It is already set up that way. A number of scouts spent days, if not longer, running through the numbers and making sure this happened. Adipem is a big reason that you don't see Gal scouts tanking 1000 HP and still being tacnet invisible and getting two shots off with a shotgun, and he RUNS the darn build. Yet, he made sure it was nerfed because it was a problem. At most, what needs to be done is to focus EWAR bonuses to mods, and/or double the speed penalty on plates just for scouts. A complete re work of EWAR is not necessary. Two lowslots is not a "large sacrifice". Or lets say two slots is a sacrifice, can I "sacrifice" 4 slots, a much large number, on a logistics or assault suit to passively pick up the scout who only sacrificed two lowslots? What about 5 slots... surely that is enough to counter only a two slot investment... I mean that is the entire tank. Or are you saying sacrificing the entire tank of a suit in order to pick up scouts is less of a sacrifice than a scout sacrificing 1-2 lowslots? Also please remember, the extra equipment slot was put on the scouts so that they WOULDN'T have to sacrifice to run a cloak, so a cloak is no sacrifice at all. Fixing EWAR
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4719	Posted - 2014.10.11 05:14:00 - [88] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: One Eyed King wrote: There is ONE scout that doesn't have to sacrifice as much, and that is the Gal scout. This has a lot to do with their number of Low Slots, the greater utility of Lows, and the superiority of armor to shield modules. All the rest have to make a significant sacrifice in order to be invisible, and can only do so with a proto cloak active. It is already set up that way. A number of scouts spent days, if not longer, running through the numbers and making sure this happened. Adipem is a big reason that you don't see Gal scouts tanking 1000 HP and still being tacnet invisible and getting two shots off with a shotgun, and he RUNS the darn build. Yet, he made sure it was nerfed because it was a problem. At most, what needs to be done is to focus EWAR bonuses to mods, and/or double the speed penalty on plates just for scouts. A complete re work of EWAR is not necessary. Two lowslots is not a "large sacrifice". Or lets say two slots is a sacrifice, can I "sacrifice" 4 slots, a much large number, on a logistics or assault suit to passively pick up the scout who only sacrificed two lowslots? What about 5 slots... surely that is enough to counter only a two slot investment... I mean that is the entire tank. Or are you saying sacrificing the entire tank of a suit in order to pick up scouts is less of a sacrifice than a scout sacrificing 1-2 lowslots? Also please remember, the extra equipment slot was put on the scouts so that they WOULDN'T have to sacrifice to run a cloak, so a cloak is no sacrifice at all. In order for a Minja to get below a Gal Logi with a focused scanner (that is 1 slot FYI), I need to run 3 Complex Damps (which is all of my LS on an Adv or Proto suit) AND have my proto cloak active. That is a hell of a sacrifice! Not only do I need to use 4 slots and lots of a meager fitting capacity, in order to do so, I need to have Dampening to level 5, Electronics to level 5, Engineering to level 5, Minmatar scout to level 4 or 5, and lastly cloaks to level 5. That is HUGE SP expense! All the Gal Logi has to do is have level 5 Active Scanning and ONE slot! In the same way that scouts weren't meant to tank as much as an Assaults, Assaults should not be able to EWAR as successfully as a scout. As it stands, Assaults CAN beat scans of scouts with no precision mods if they so choose. They are not meant to beat ALL scans. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5709	Posted - 2014.10.11 05:21:00 - [89] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Come up with a compelling argument as to why the scouts shouldn't have to compete in EWAR ... Scouts are intended to be superior at EWAR. It's what they're good at. There is no actual balance problem here; you have provided no legitimate basis for an EWAR overhaul, and the overhaul you've proposed is painfully ill-thought. You've pitched a bad plan based upon bad premise. And now you want me and everyone else to argue the finer points of your bad plan with you. While you stomp about all frothy? No thank you. I can think of better ways to waste time. The fact of the matter is that Scouts compete constantly to beat one another's scans and to avoid the supreme scans of the GA Logi. MedFrames and even Heavies receive benefit from EWAR modules, whether or not their profile/precision/range values match those of Scouts. Could non-Scout EWAR module benefits be improved upon to encourage build diversity? Sure. We've discussed doing exactly that with Cross Atu. Could EWAR mechanics themselves be improved upon? Absolutely. We've been discussing this in great detail. Do these opportunities for improvement represent basis for outright overhauling a carefully constructed EWAR system? LolNo. Should Scouts be made worse at EWAR on the basis that you said so? I don't think so. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1140	Posted - 2014.10.11 05:24:00 - [90] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: One Eyed King wrote: There is ONE scout that doesn't have to sacrifice as much, and that is the Gal scout. This has a lot to do with their number of Low Slots, the greater utility of Lows, and the superiority of armor to shield modules. All the rest have to make a significant sacrifice in order to be invisible, and can only do so with a proto cloak active. It is already set up that way. A number of scouts spent days, if not longer, running through the numbers and making sure this happened. Adipem is a big reason that you don't see Gal scouts tanking 1000 HP and still being tacnet invisible and getting two shots off with a shotgun, and he RUNS the darn build. Yet, he made sure it was nerfed because it was a problem. At most, what needs to be done is to focus EWAR bonuses to mods, and/or double the speed penalty on plates just for scouts. A complete re work of EWAR is not necessary. Two lowslots is not a "large sacrifice". Or lets say two slots is a sacrifice, can I "sacrifice" 4 slots, a much large number, on a logistics or assault suit to passively pick up the scout who only sacrificed two lowslots? What about 5 slots... surely that is enough to counter only a two slot investment... I mean that is the entire tank. Or are you saying sacrificing the entire tank of a suit in order to pick up scouts is less of a sacrifice than a scout sacrificing 1-2 lowslots? Also please remember, the extra equipment slot was put on the scouts so that they WOULDN'T have to sacrifice to run a cloak, so a cloak is no sacrifice at all. In order for a Minja to get below a Gal Logi with a focused scanner (that is 1 slot FYI), I need to run 3 Complex Damps (which is all of my LS on an Adv or Proto suit) AND have my proto cloak active. That is a hell of a sacrifice! Not only do I need to use 4 slots and lots of a meager fitting capacity, in order to do so, I need to have Dampening to level 5, Electronics to level 5, Engineering to level 5, Minmatar scout to level 4 or 5, and lastly cloaks to level 5. That is HUGE SP expense! All the Gal Logi has to do is have level 5 Active Scanning and ONE slot! In the same way that scouts weren't meant to tank as much as an Assaults, Assaults should not be able to EWAR as successfully as a scout. As it stands, Assaults CAN beat scans of scouts with no precision mods if they so choose. They are not meant to beat ALL scans. So just admit that you didn't actually read the OP and the graphs. I would think you haven't because you are rehashing arguments I ALREADY MADE. Hell I already just gave you a quick TLDR like 5 post up that states in no uncertain terms that scouts would still be best at any/every type of EWAR but they have to sacrifice to do it, are you reading any of this? Here READ THE OP AGAIN. In it you will find that I argue that the SEPERATION of EWAR is too great, that the difference in damps vs enhancers skews balance, and that.... I am not retyping it all, go read it and stop with the group-think stuff that is obviously going on here. Fixing EWAR

Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1140	Posted - 2014.10.11 05:34:00 - [91] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Come up with a compelling argument as to why the scouts shouldn't have to compete in EWAR ... Scouts are intended to be superior at EWAR. It's what they're good at. There is no actual balance problem here; you have provided no legitimate basis for an EWAR overhaul, and the overhaul you've proposed is painfully ill-thought. You've pitched a bad plan based upon bad premise. And now you want me and everyone else to argue the finer points of your bad plan with you. No thank you. The fact of the matter is that Scouts compete constantly to beat one another's scans and to avoid the supreme scans of the GA Logi. MedFrames and even Heavies receive benefit from EWAR modules, whether or not their profile/precision/range values match those of Scouts. Could non-Scout EWAR module benefits be improved upon to encourage build diversity? Sure. We've discussed doing exactly that with Cross Atu. Could EWAR mechanics themselves be improved upon? Absolutely. We've been discussing this in great detail. Are these opportunities for improvement sound basis for overhauling EWAR to the detriment of Scouts? LolNo. SCOUT STILL WOULD BE SUPERIOR AT EWAR. I swear to god, people in this thread better be like 10 years old for the amount of repeating myself I have to do. The problem is that THERE IS NO INTERPLAY! Here read this again, and keep reading it until it get in there somehow: me, a few post up wrote: Scouts can still be fully undetecable Scouts can still have amazing passive scanning ability (in both range and precision) Scouts can still be the fastest Scouts can still run the longest Scouts still have the smallest hitboxes Scouts still retain their extra equipment slot Scouts still retain equal damage to logi/assaults Scouts can still brick tank Scouts still have the highest default ewar stats scouts still have their insane shield regen Now in the OP you will notice this : [quote = OP] This time it is exploring how EWAR is fundamentally broken right now, and how we could bring it back to balance so that other suits can also be a part of this metagame. Here is a graph of what EWAR looks like now. The (p) stands for precision and the (d) stands for dampening. As you can see, it is quite easy to avoid all scan with minimal sacrifice, and there is no sacrifice great enough to try to keep up. [/quote] So my entire point is that other suits need to be able to participate in EWAR. That an assault fitting an enhancer can pick up an amarr/minnie scout (because they are not stealth specialized AS EVIDENT BY THEIR BONUSES) if it fits MORE enhancers than a scout does, the same amount means that the scout wins... always. IT WOULD TAKE A CAL SENTINEL EVERY HIGH SLOT TO PICK UP A SCOUT, but at least it could be done. This is not a total re-write, this is a SLIGHT modification. You don't like it because there might be more suits in the EWAR metagame, suits that would have to sacrifice MORE than a scout to participate in it, but they still could. Right now as it is, an assault will not passively find a scout that is only puts on a proto cloak and is otherwise fully combat fit. This would change ONLY THAT META. But I guess understanding all of this is just too much to ask, hell you couldn't even read the OP. EDIT: Oh and to add to that, yes an proto-active-focused-scanner with pitiful stats should be able to pick up fully damped amarr/minnie scouts. It is a specialized EWAR hunter suit, and it is an active module. This means it actually requires you to ACTIVELY use it. The only suits that should be able to avoid it are suits that sacrifice a bonus for stealth, as they are specialized in avoiding detection. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5710	Posted - 2014.10.11 05:42:00 - [92] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: ... while you stomp about all frothy and indignant? No thank you. I can think of better ways to waste time. PS: The current system isn't broken. There's no need to screw with it. Especially not if we're all worked up. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1140	Posted - 2014.10.11 06:02:00 - [93] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: ... while you stomp about all frothy and indignant? No thank you. I can think of better ways to waste time. PS: The current system isn't broken. There's precisely zero reason to try to fix it. Finetune? Yes. Overhaul? No. Get all Frothy? If you want. :: popcorn :: It is a fine tune: Hell these two ALONE would fix 99% of the problems 1)Profile damps to 20% from 25% 2) profile/precision "scouts go to 40/40, logis go to 45/45, assaults to 50/50 (no change), heavies to 55/55 To compensate for the changes: amarr precision goes to 3% (unless you want it scanning all suits including gall/cal scouts with 3 damps) Those are tiny changes, it changes NOTHING in scout interplay, only allows other suits to partake in EWAR as well. Oh and scanner changes, because everyone can see no one uses them anymore, changing scanners at the same time would mean that they can be theory-crafted into perfect ranges from the get-go. Yes passive shared vision that is always on and require ZERO action from the user is OP, but that is low-down on my laundry list of gripes. You come off as if you think an assault NEVER being able to see a scout with a cloak on is a good thing, no matter how many modules it fits to that end. This ELIMINATES assaults from a significant portion of ewar, but you are fine with that. You also come off as saying 1-2 slots on a scout (plus cloak) should trump a 5 slot investment on a logi (the next best baseline ewar stats), eliminating them from EWAR play. I know an analog system where variable signal strengths and ranges comes into play is not possible with Dust's limitations, but this tiered approached is better than the binary (fit 1-2 damps + cloak, never worry about assaults and all logis but the galllogi... with a 5 million sp investment.....maybe... if he is lucky.... for 5 seconds.......) crap we have now, and it is simple number changing. But thanks again for insulting me, what is that, your 5th time insulting me in this thread? Reported. Fixing EWAR
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3558	Posted - 2014.10.11 09:45:00 - [94] - Quote Until CCP attaches a random number generator to EWAR and eliminates the "always detected/never detected" BS EWAR will never be balanced. There needs to be a chance of failure at all levels. There needs to be a valid reason to put precision enhancers, range amps and damps on suits other than scouts.
Haerr Clone Manque 1629	Posted - 2014.10.11 09:52:00 - [95] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: random number generator No.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3559	Posted - 2014.10.11 10:00:00 - [96] - Quote Haerr wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: random number generator No. There is no functional way to balance "always wins/always fails." It is a literal and absolute impossibility. Because you always get the Unstopable Force vs. The immovable object dilemma. You have to choose which one automatically beats the other on a tie. And if you chose undetectability then cloak scouts have no hard counter. If you choose detection the scout is automatically dead. There needs to be a weighted randomizer in play. One that takes into account +precision and +damps. But the current state of EWAR cannot be balanced because there is no chance of failure. It is simply a math equation and a simple SP expenditure to guarantee winning.
Jebus McKing lol Proto 750	Posted - 2014.10.11 10:32:00 - [97] - Quote In my opinion the most important things about EWAR that have to change are: removal of the wallhack chevron on TacNet removal of the directional arrows on the radar for passive scans (maybe make passive scans pulsate) lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Haerr Clone Manque 1629	Posted - 2014.10.11 10:39:00 - [98] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: In my opinion the most important things about EWAR that have to change are: removal of the wallhack chevron on TacNet removal of the directional arrows on the radar for passive scans (maybe make passive scans pulsate) Hey! Don't forget about Scan Precision Falloff! It should be on top of that list and you know it! :P
Haerr Clone Manque 1629	Posted - 2014.10.11 10:48:00 - [99] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Haerr wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: random number generator No. There is no functional way to balance "always wins/always fails." It is a literal and absolute impossibility. Because you always get the Unstopable Force vs. The immovable object dilemma. You have to choose which one automatically beats the other on a tie. And if you chose undetectability then cloak scouts have no hard counter. If you choose detection the scout is automatically dead. There needs to be a weighted randomizer in play. One that takes into account +precision and +damps. But the current state of EWAR cannot be balanced because there is no chance of failure. It is simply a math equation and a simple SP expenditure to guarantee winning. Range, and more states, would be a way of letting "both sides win" within the same system. Scan Precision Falloff. GÇö More dampeners allows you to come closer to the enemies without showing up on the tac-net. Include more states of being "scanned down", such as dividing: MiniMap: Hidden ................ Hidden Personal ............. Sector (Split the minimap into several parts.) Shared, Squad ... Sector (Split the minimap into several parts.) Shared, Team ..... Sector (Split the minimap into several parts.) Personal ............. Blip Shared, Squad ... Blip Shared, Team ..... Blip Personal ............. Direction Arrow Shared, Squad ... Direction Arrow Shared, Team ..... Direction Arrow HUD: Hidden ................ Hidden Personal ............. Chevron in line of sight Shared, Squad ... Chevron in line of sight Shared, Team ..... Chevron in line of sight Personal ............. Chevron out of line of sight Shared, Squad ... Chevron out of line of sight Shared, Team ..... Chevron out of line of sight Depending on +/- dB and / or per scanner type. Edit: Liking your post to draw your attention! :)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3560	Posted - 2014.10.11 11:36:00 - [100] - Quote Still does not address the core problem with EWAR. Until there is a margin for error at both ends balance is impossible.

Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 273	Posted - 2014.10.11 12:00:00 - [101] - Quote I know I said we should not mess with EWAR, but what if we just reduced medium suit profile to 45db and left everything else the same? This would make them much easier to damp below common scanning threats if people wanted to. It might even make active scanners better in competitive play as at proto they generally have better precision than scout passive scans.
Haerr Clone Manque 1630	Posted - 2014.10.11 13:43:00 - [102] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Still does not address the core problem with EWAR. Until there is a margin for error at both ends balance is impossible. Adding a RNG to the system will not change the SCANNED / NOT SCANNED nature of it. Having proximity be a major factor in the EWAR system would downplay the current systems faults. Having Passive Scans not show the exact position but rather show a sector on the mini-map would add a level of uncertainty to the system. Having the time scanned down by Active Scanners be influenced by comparative Scanner Strength vs Targets Scan Profile would make Dampeners useful even when you are scanned down.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5721	Posted - 2014.10.11 13:49:00 - [103] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I know I said we should not mess with EWAR, but what if we just reduced medium suit profile to 45db and left everything else the same? This would make them much easier to damp below common scanning threats if people wanted to. It might even make active scanners better in competitive play as at proto they generally have better precision than scout passive scans. Would Support: * moderate improvement Assault Profile * moderate increase Logi scan radius slight Neither change create imbalance would result in role overlap. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3565	Posted - 2014.10.11 13:53:00 - [104] - Quote Bluntly scanning ranges should START at 50m minimum. This 10m crap is pretty much the most useless inception of the personal radar I have ever seen in a game.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5723	Posted - 2014.10.11 13:56:00 - [105] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Bluntly scanning ranges should START at 50m minimum. This 10m crap is pretty much the most useless inception of the personal radar I have ever seen in a game. Would increase CA Scout max passive scan range from around 90m to around 220m. Pretty sure that'd break stuff, Breakin Stuff. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3570	Posted - 2014.10.11 14:04:00 - [106] - Quote Pretty sure if you change range extenders to a flat number instead of +% you can mitigate that. Especially if you change it so the cal bonus only adds to BASE scan range after skills. But the radar on your screen is a 120m radius. If you aren't a calscout only the tiny ass dot in the center is where you will detect things. I would extend the radius to 150 and start everyone's base detection at 50. Then make the DB adjusting mods do flat numbers instead of % modifiers. Then make a 5% chance that you get picked up on passive for 1 sec. Anyway if your profile DB is stupid-low. That way you can let scouts have universally lower profiles because they will not autto-win the detection war. Plus a scout can cross 50m fast. Im not in favor of making scouts easy to detect. I am in favor of making everyone else's scanning not worthless.
Jebus McKing lol Proto 751	Posted - 2014.10.11 14:49:00 - [107] - Quote I will not support anything that makes scanning easier or increase the number of of red dots on your radar. Scanning is a mechanic only made for those too lazy to check their corners and flanks with their eyes and ears. I will support anything that makes avoiding to be scanned easier though. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3570	Posted - 2014.10.11 15:04:00 - [108] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: I will not support anything that makes scanning easier or increase the number of of red dots on your radar. Scanning is a mechanic only made for those too lazy to check their corners and flanks with their eyes and ears. I will support anything that makes avoiding to be scanned easier though. Scout player detected. I will not support anything related to making anyone immune to being detected.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5724	Posted - 2014.10.11 15:07:00 - [109] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Hell these two ALONE would fix 99% of the problems 1)Profile damps to 20% from 25% 2) profile/precision "scouts go to 40/40, logis go to 45/45, assaults to 50/50 (no change), heavies to 55/55 To compensate for the changes: amarr precision goes to 3% (unless you want it scanning all suits including gall/cal scouts with 3 damps) Amadeuss EWAR, Part Deux Here are a few reasons why the existing system is superior to yours: * GA Logi + Prototype Scanner (21 dB) scans all MN/AM Scouts (even if running straight dampeners) * Anyone + Focused Scanner (20 dB) scans MN/AM Scouts (even if running straight dampeners) * GA Logi + Focused Scanner (15 dB) scans all; 1 EQ (of 4) defeats an entire Class * GA Scout and AM Scout precision is seperated by 1 only dB. AM Scout loses its primary benefit. * The fitting flexible, oft tanked and soon-to-be-buffed Logi is only one Damp removed from the Scout Food for thought: If Precision can beat Profile, Precision will always beat Profile. Permascan is EZ Mode, Magnus. Permascan is bad for Scouts and its bad for Dust. Quit lobbying for permascan. Suggestion: Retooling Profile/Precision/Range of non-Scouts is one thing, but don't mess with low-dB profile/precision interplay. It's a delicate balance which happens to be working fine at moment. Magnus Amadeuss wrote: But thanks again for insulting me, what is that, your 5th time insulting me in this thread? Reported. You get frothy each and every time someone disagrees with you. Pointing that out is not a violation of Rules of Conduct. How 'bout not throwing fits and sticking to the facts? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Jebus McKing lol Proto 752	Posted - 2014.10.11 15:19:00 - [110] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: I will not support anything that makes scanning easier or increase the number of of red dots on your radar. Scanning is a mechanic only made for those too lazy to check their corners and flanks with their eyes and ears. I will support anything that makes avoiding to be scanned easier though. Scout player detected. I will not support anything related to making anyone immune to being detected. lol I play all of the classes. Scout is my least favourite. There is no skill in outplaying someone who you can see on your radar all the time. I'd rather see dampened Assaults than more people with wallhacks. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5724	Posted - 2014.10.11 15:22:00 - [111] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: I will not support anything that makes scanning easier or increase the number of of red dots on your radar. Scanning is a mechanic only made for those too lazy to check their corners and flanks with their eyes and ears. I will support anything that makes avoiding to be scanned easier though. Scout player detected. I will not support anything related to making anyone immune to being detected. You've got fully 4x a Scout's base HP, before you plate up. Your HMG can kill 2-3 EWAR Scouts every second. And you want squishy EWAR Scouts (who've committed their Lows to beating scans) painted on your and everyone else's radar? In a world of 1000+HP MedFrames and 1500+HP Heavies, I see no problem with 300HP Scouts being able to beat scans. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3574	Posted - 2014.10.11 15:26:00 - [112] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: I will not support anything that makes scanning easier or increase the number of of red dots on your radar. Scanning is a mechanic only made for those too lazy to check their corners and flanks with their eyes and ears. I will support anything that makes avoiding to be scanned easier though. Scout player detected. I will not support anything related to making anyone immune to being detected. You've got fully 4x our base HP, before you plate up. Your HMG can kill three EWAR Scouts per second. And you want 300HP EWAR Scouts (who've committed their fit to beating scans) painted on your radar? A thin-ass chance that they might be seen for one second as a blip isn't unreasonable, nor is it insurmountable. Do I want them PAINTED? No, that's about the stupidest idea ever. it would guarantee annihilation. there needs to be a chance of failure. But the "Always wins/always fails" binary equation is crap, cannot be balanced and has to have been the laziest game design i have ever seen. Cloaks don't bother me. Utter immunity to being detected on scans doesn't bother me. Combining the two bothers me.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5725	Posted - 2014.10.11 15:35:00 - [113] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: I will not support anything that makes scanning easier or increase the number of of red dots on your radar. Scanning is a mechanic only made for those too lazy to check their corners and flanks with their eyes and ears. I will support anything that makes avoiding to be scanned easier though. Scout player detected. I will not support anything related to making anyone immune to being detected. You've got fully 4x our base HP, before you plate up. Your HMG can kill three EWAR Scouts per second. And you want 300HP EWAR Scouts (who've committed their fit to beating scans) painted on your radar? A thin-ass chance that they might be seen for one second as a blip isn't unreasonable, nor is it insurmountable. Do I want them PAINTED? No, that's about the stupidest idea ever. it would guarantee annihilation. there needs to be a chance of failure. But the "Always wins/always fails" binary equation is crap, cannot be balanced and has to have been the laziest game design i have ever seen. Cloaks don't bother me. Utter immunity to being detected on scans doesn't bother me. Combining the two bothers me. The bottom line (as far as this thread goes) is that EWAR-oriented Scouts aren't causing problems, and there is no legitimate basis for subjecting them to permascan, which is what Magnus appears to be peddling. On the other hand, "Assault Lite" beating scans while running near 1000HP was absolutely a problem. But to the best of our knowledge that problem has been largely resolved. Should Rattati suggest otherwise, we'll push for greater penalties for HP modules on Scouts. Tweaks to cloak are also in order; ideally, future Scouts will decloak in advance of engagement. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3580	Posted - 2014.10.11 15:39:00 - [114] - Quote permascan and perma-evade are both crap and should not be a thing. NOW. this does not mean I think every frisbee-tossing twit in a Minmatar scout should automatically pop up on my radar. I agree that's pretty much idiot ball. My thought is that if I choose to forgo tank on my fatsuits in order to rock range and precision mods I should have a CHANCE to catch that little turd coming at me with the knives. The simple fact is, currently all EWAR mods only have any useful utility on scout suits and on gallente logis running scanners. Otherwise they're almost entirely a waste of slots because of the whole binary ewar equation.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5727	Posted - 2014.10.11 16:11:00 - [115] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: My thought is that if I choose to forgo tank on my fatsuits in order to rock range and precision mods I should have a CHANCE to catch that little turd coming at me with the knives. In practice, nearly all MinScout knifers run Damps now; they get smashed when they don't. Heavies scanning dampened scouts would likely be bad for balance. PS: If your Logi runs one Complex Precision Enhancer he will spot any undampened MN or CA Scout. If he runs two, he'll spot all undampened Scouts. Pretty sure Cross is working on a Scan Range buff for the Logi as well. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 273	Posted - 2014.10.11 16:27:00 - [116] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: permascan and perma-evade are both crap and should not be a thing. NOW. this does not mean I think every frisbee-tossing twit in a Minmatar scout should automatically pop up on my radar. I agree that's pretty much idiot ball. My thought is that if I choose to forgo tank on my fatsuits in order to rock range and precision mods I should have a CHANCE to catch that little turd coming at me with the knives. Edit: this has the side effect of making me easier to kill. Not that THAT's particularly hard unless you're in a vehicle. The simple fact is, currently all EWAR mods only have any useful utility on scout suits and on gallente logis running scanners. Otherwise they're almost entirely a waste of slots because of the whole binary ewar equation. In my eyes an important balancing factor for heavies is that they can't reach their full potential without support from their team/squad. I like the fact that a heavy needs another class in squad to benefit from scans. I always use EWAR mods on my logi suits because it makes my sentinel buddies unstoppable. I don't think we need heavy suits scanning scouts.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 453	Posted - 2014.10.11 16:38:00 - [117] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: My thought is that if I choose to forgo tank on my fatsuits in order to rock range and precision mods I should have a CHANCE to catch that little turd coming at me with the knives. In practice, nearly all MinScout knifers run Damps now; they get smashed when they don't. in practice, the game is full of scouts running as assaults. I said at the time that the changes in Charlie wouldnt change these facts - you disagreed. I would like to use my min and cal assault but i dont because whats the point. The changes haven't improved the situation. The scout has all the upsides. You can deny this all you want. One part of the solution is to bring EWAR to other suits by bleeding it across the classes. This forces the scout to use EWAR modules to counter fits used by other EWAR suit set ups - and then play to the supposed scout strengths. Edit: this is not the only change i would wish make to improve the situation. But the topic is EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5729	Posted - 2014.10.11 16:53:00 - [118] - Quote xAckie wrote: in practice, the game is full of scouts running as assaults ... If high-HP Scouts are still outperforming actual Assault, we need only increase penalties for HP mods on Scouts. xAckie wrote: One part of the solution is to bring EWAR to other suits by bleeding it across the classes. This forces the scout to use EWAR modules to counter fits used by other EWAR suit set ups - and then play to the supposed scout strengths. We're probably close to being on the same page here. I agree that undampened Scouts should be readily scanned. I agree that EWAR could and should be improved upon for non-scout classes. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3590	Posted - 2014.10.11 17:41:00 - [119] - Quote Personally I think anyone running without damps of some sort should be detectable. Trick is scouts must need the advantage and believe it or not I don't want sentinels as a hard counter. But there needs to be a chance that detection could happen randomly. The scoits need to have that "**** did he see me?" Butt pucker moment on approach. It needs to be more cautious and more thoughtful. Scouts currently have fear of nothing. Plus all of the "just roll a scout. The assault better than assaults."
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5731	Posted - 2014.10.11 17:53:00 - [120] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: But there needs to be a chance that detection could happen randomly. The scoits need to have that "** did he see me?" Butt pucker moment on approach. Like when a heavy insta-spins at random to check his six? Catches you all purple, 10 meters out with nowhere to run. Yeah, I hate those butt pucker moments. Breakin Stuff wrote:** It needs to be more cautious and more thoughtful. Scouts currently have fear of nothing. Plus all of the "just roll a scout. The assault better than assaults." We can't balance around hyperbole. If it were as EZ and foolproof as you describe, Scout KDRs would be through the roof. The very best "slayer scouts" seldom sustain 5.0 weeklies; squishy scouts like myself and Musturd average a good 'bit lower. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3590	Posted - 2014.10.11 18:03:00 - [121] - Quote Also bear in mind my " chance for detection" on a scout probably runs a 1 in 20 chance you might blip for one second and then be gone unless you are SEVERELY giving up slots for detection to the tune of "most/all of it." If someone catches you at that point yer dead unless you are johnny-on-the-ball A fully EWAR fit should maybe pull a one in six spotting a scout but be rigged more to see incoming assaults. You're more likely to have the fatty turn around randomly. Bluntly the range I would like to see better on all suits and if I had to pick a "detect the skinny little turd" class I'd pick assault so long as they are willing to vomit out detection mods. Sentinels don't need a high chance but that binary "always win/always blind" thing is a crap mechanic and it needs to be killed with fire
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1142	Posted - 2014.10.11 18:37:00 - [122] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: More misleading information I forgot to mention gal scout goes to 1% scan precision Am/Mimatar profile WITH PROTO CLOAK (seriously, stop ignoring this, it just makes you look like you are hiding something) Damps Profile ----0--------33---- ----1--------26---- ----2--------21---- ----3--------19---- ----4--------18---- All passive scan avoidable Only scannable by the gall-logi with a 5 million SP investment, for 5/40 seconds, within a tiny sliver of the battlefield that the logi must be pointed at, that requires ACTIVE USE OF. Cal/Gall profile WITH PROTO CLOAK (seriously, stop ignoring this, it just makes you look like you are hiding something) Damps Profile ----0--------28---- ----1--------22---- ----2--------18---- ----3--------16---- ----4--------15---- All passive scans avoidable Only the caldari is scannable by the gall-logi with a 5 million SP investment, for 5/40 seconds, within a tiny sliver of the battlefield that the logi must be pointed at, that requires ACTIVE USE OF. Logi scan precision Mods Precision ----0--------41---- ----1--------33---- ----2--------27---- ----3--------24---- ----4--------23---- Looks to me like the logi can't pick up an undampened scout with 1 precision mod. Adipem lying again.... Looks like 2 are actually required Assault scan precision Mods Precision ----0--------45---- ----1--------36---- ----2--------30---- ----3--------26---- ----4--------25---- Looks like an assault is just SOL. Too bad too, since the scout has a few OHK weapons that can easily kill an assault without him ever having a chance. This isn't balanced here, pretty easy to see Can you please quit lying now Adipem? I am getting really tired of you being deceitful. Fixing EWAR
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2514	Posted - 2014.10.11 18:44:00 - [123] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: I will not support anything that makes scanning easier or increase the number of of red dots on your radar. Scanning is a mechanic only made for those too lazy to check their corners and flanks with their eyes and ears. I will support anything that makes avoiding to be scanned easier though. Scout player detected. I will not support anything related to making anyone immune to being detected. You've got fully 4x our base HP, before you plate up. Your HMG can kill three EWAR Scouts per second. And you want 300HP EWAR Scouts (who've committed their fit to beating scans) painted on your radar? A thin-ass chance that they might be seen for one second as a blip isn't unreasonable, nor is it insurmountable. Do I want them PAINTED? No, that's about the stupidest idea ever. it would guarantee annihilation. there needs to be a chance of failure. But the "Always wins/always fails" binary equation is crap, cannot be balanced and has to have been the laziest game design i have ever seen. Cloaks don't bother me. Utter immunity to being detected on scans doesn't bother me. Combining the two bothers me. IF cloaks made you invisible and you could fire from them, this would be a reasonable concern. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2514	Posted - 2014.10.11 18:46:00 - [124] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: More misleading information I forgot to mention gal scout goes to 1% scan precision, my bad, that is on me. Am/Mimatar profile WITH PROTO CLOAK (seriously, stop ignoring this, it just makes you look like you are hiding something) Damps Profile ----0--------33---- ----1--------26---- ----2--------21---- ----3--------19---- ----4--------18---- All passive scan avoidable Only scannable by the gall-logi with a 5 million SP investment, for 5/40 seconds, within a tiny sliver of the battlefield that the logi must be pointed at, that requires ACTIVE USE OF. Cal/Gall profile WITH PROTO CLOAK (seriously, stop ignoring this, it just makes you look like you are hiding something) Damps Profile ----0--------28---- ----1--------22---- ----2--------18---- ----3--------16---- ----4--------15---- All passive scans avoidable Only the caldari is scannable by the gall-logi with a 5 million SP investment, for 5/40 seconds, within a tiny sliver of the battlefield that the logi must be pointed at, that requires ACTIVE USE OF. Logi scan precision Mods Precision ----0--------41---- ----1--------33---- ----2--------27---- ----3--------24---- ----4--------22---- Looks to me like the logi can't pick up an all undampened scout with 1 precision mod. Adipem lying again.... Looks like 2 are actually required Assault scan precision Mods Precision ----0--------45---- ----1--------36---- ----2--------30---- ----3--------26---- ----4--------25---- Looks like an assault is just SOL. Too bad too, since the scout has a few OHK weapons that can easily kill an assault without him ever having a chance. This isn't balanced here, pretty easy to see Can you please quit lying now Adipem? I am getting really tired of you being deceitful. EDIT: adding gal/am scout precisions AM scout scan precision Mods Precision ----0--------31---- ----1--------24---- ----2--------20---- Cannot pick up all scouts... GAL scout scan precision Mods Precision ----0--------34---- ----1--------27---- ----2--------23---- Cannot pick up all scouts.... Yeah I love my minmitar scouts 4th low slot! Also, **** scouts being able to dodge scans! They should be perma scanned all the time by suits with 5x their HP and twice their damage output! "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2514	Posted - 2014.10.11 18:48:00 - [125] - Quote In other news, thread is a 10/10 troll. 6 pages of actual responses, as well as dragging in Shotty to actually argue with you on a mathematical level, and baiting a large amount of the community. If Rattati had responded, Id nominate it as "Troll of the Year" "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1142	Posted - 2014.10.11 18:48:00 - [126] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Yeah I love my minmitar scouts 4th low slot! Also, **** scouts being able to dodge scans! They should be perma scanned all the time by suits with 5x their HP and twice their damage output! 3 damps = unscannable by all but the galllogi, over a tiny portion of the battlefield, for a tiny amount of time, with a large cooldown, with a 5 million sp investment, when he is pointed in the right direction, using a specialized EWAR suit. That sounds pretty fair to me. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1142	Posted - 2014.10.11 18:51:00 - [127] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: In other news, thread is a 10/10 troll. 6 pages of actual responses, as well as dragging in Shotty to actually argue with you on a mathematical level, and baiting a large amount of the community. If Rattati had responded, Id nominate it as "Troll of the Year" Well, when it is non-stop with people who have absolutely no interest in balance, yeah it is kind of rough. Especially when shottygoBang/aldepim constantly misrepresents the facts about how the interplay is related. You are just a troll though, so I am not sure why I am feeding you. 1-2 slots + cloak should not make you completely invisible, especially when you have OHK weapons. Reasonable people understand this. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5734	Posted - 2014.10.11 18:57:00 - [128] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Can you please quit lying now Adipem? I am getting really tired of you being deceitful. Dude, if I were trying to deceive anyone, I wouldn't be providing spreadsheets. How 'bout you put together the progressions for yourself instead of peddling platitudes and ad hominem? Feel free to use my math. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1142	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:01:00 - [129] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Can you please quit lying now Adipem? I am getting really tired of you being deceitful. Dude, if I were trying to deceive anyone, I wouldn't be providing spreadsheets. How 'bout you put together the progressions for yourself instead of peddling platitudes and ad hominem? Feel free to use my math. I already did, last page, go look. I mean really, the ENTIRE POST is filled with the figures, address them, then come back here and say something. Fact of the matter is you ARE being misleading and you know it, that is known as lying. EDIT: Here I'll do it for you: me from the post you quoted one line from wrote: Am/Mimatar profile WITH PROTO CLOAK (seriously, stop ignoring this, it just makes you look like you are hiding something) Damps Profile ----0--------33---- ----1--------26---- ----2--------21---- ----3--------19---- ----4--------18---- All passive scan avoidable Only scannable by the gall-logi with a 5 million SP investment, for 5/40 seconds, within a tiny sliver of the battlefield that the logi must be pointed at, that requires ACTIVE USE OF. Cal/Gall profile WITH PROTO CLOAK (seriously, stop ignoring this, it just makes you look like you are hiding something) Damps Profile ----0--------28---- ----1--------22---- ----2--------18---- ----3--------16---- ----4--------15---- All passive scans avoidable Only the caldari is scannable by the gall-logi with a 5 million SP investment, for 5/40 seconds, within a tiny sliver of the battlefield that the logi must be pointed at, that requires ACTIVE USE OF. Logi scan precision Mods Precision ----0--------41---- ----1--------33---- ----2--------27---- ----3--------24---- ----4--------22---- Looks to me like the logi can't pick up an all undampened scout with 1 precision mod. Adipem lying again.... Looks like 2 are actually required Assault scan precision Mods Precision ----0--------45---- ----1--------36---- ----2--------30---- ----3--------26---- ----4--------25---- Looks like an assault is just SOL. Too bad too, since the scout has a few OHK weapons that can easily kill an assault without him ever having a chance. This isn't balanced here, pretty easy to see Can you please quit lying now Adipem? I am getting really tired of you being deceitful. EDIT: adding gal/am scout precisions AM scout scan precision Mods Precision ----0--------31---- ----1--------24---- ----2--------20---- Cannot pick up all scouts... GAL scout scan precision Mods Precision ----0--------32---- ----1--------26---- ----2--------21---- Cannot pick up all scouts.... Of course you could conceed that cloaks should not give you a dampening bonus at all and then I could rework the numbersm because as long as cloaks give you that bonus, they NEED to be taken into account. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5734	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:14:00 - [130] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Can you please quit lying now Adipem? I am getting really tired of you being deceitful. Dude, if I were trying to deceive anyone, I wouldn't be providing spreadsheets. How 'bout you put together the progressions for yourself instead of peddling platitudes and ad hominem? Feel free to use my math. I already did, last page, go look. Then come back here and say something. Fact of the matter is you ARE being misleading and you know it, that is known as lying. You're right. I forgot to account for +10% proto cloak. Here are the new figures: 19 dB -Proto MN Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active 18 dB - Proto CA/AM Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active 15 dB - Proto GA Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active Your model still isn't reasonable. You can't require an entire class to always run proto gear, always run proto cloak, and always run straight damps to avoid being permascanned. The only way to pitch this is to do away with the GA Logi bonus and to find a new bonus for the GA Scout. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 373	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:31:00 - [131] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Can you please quit lying now Adipem? I am getting really tired of you being deceitful. Dude, if I were trying to deceive anyone, I wouldn't be providing spreadsheets. How 'bout you put together the progressions for yourself instead of peddling platitudes and ad hominem? Feel free to use my math. I already did, last page, go look. Then come back here and say something. Fact of the matter is you ARE being misleading and you know it, that is known as lying. You're right. I forgot to account for +10% proto cloak. Here are the new figures: 19 dB -Proto MN Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active 18 dB - Proto CA/AM Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active 15 dB - Proto GA Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active Your model still isn't reasonable. You can't require an entire class to be max-skilled, always run proto gear, always run proto cloak, and always run straight damps, all to avoid being permascanned. The only way to pitch this is to do away with the GA Logi bonus and find a new bonus for the GA Scout. Your model is impractical and imbalanced. The current model is working; why should we scrap it? Because you say so? So if the tables provided are agreed as being accurate, then all I'm reading there as far as competitive EWAR access is a Logi with 4(!) highs dedicated to PreEnh can pick up a scout w/1damp and a cloak. Or, a GalLogi (by virtue of bonus) running the most powerful scanner available can pick them up for a very short time, in fairly long intervals. My question then is, what aspect of an extremely limited RANGE (the logis passive) and extremely limited detection ability OR an extremely limited DURATION (the GalLogi w/activescanner) and narrow scope ability equates to "PERMASCAN"? PERMASCAN phonetically is an contractional abbreviation for Permanent Scans. Scans all, all of the time. Which one or combo of the two above equals that? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1143	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:31:00 - [132] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Can you please quit lying now Adipem? I am getting really tired of you being deceitful. Dude, if I were trying to deceive anyone, I wouldn't be providing spreadsheets. How 'bout you put together the progressions for yourself instead of peddling platitudes and ad hominem? Feel free to use my math. I already did, last page, go look. Then come back here and say something. Fact of the matter is you ARE being misleading and you know it, that is known as lying. You're right. I forgot to account for +10% proto cloak. Here are the new figures: 19 dB -Proto MN Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active 18 dB - Proto CA/AM Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active 15 dB - Proto GA Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active Your model still isn't reasonable. You can't require an entire class to be max-skilled, always run proto gear, always run proto cloak, and always run straight damps, all to avoid being permascanned. The only way to pitch this is to do away with the GA Logi bonus and find a new bonus for the GA Scout. The current model is working. Your model is impractical and imbalanced. Thanks for just copy pasting the numbers I already posted. How is it not reasonable? Everything is assuming EVERYONE is max skilled, that is how you balance, or do you prefer to only assume the scanners are max skilled... because all of your perma-scan B.S. requires max skills as well. There is no perma scan here anymore than there is a perma-hide, you have a problem with that why? You have not demonstrated how it is imbalanced, I have time and again demonstrated imbalance in the current system. Right now it is just perma-hide with little to no sacrifice, THAT IS NOT WORKING. Currently every scout can hide from everything else (sans gallogi + 5mil sp + small sliver of the battlefield +equipment + 5/40 sec visibilty/cooldown) with one equipment (which makes then hard to see and avoids all direct tacnet) and two modules . Thats is BROKEN. The biggest problem here shotty, is that you think the system is "working"... lol Nice little dig with the stealth edit: Actually the ONLY person here that is using the "call to authority" logical fallicy is you. I have provided facts and figures, sound reasoning, mathimatically solid, comprehensive details. Your rebuttal? "Current system is balanced." or "permascan" even though I have REPEATEDLY proven there is NO permascan here. Fixing EWAR
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 274	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:37:00 - [133] - Quote I don't see why we need to make scouts easier to detect. The point of scouts is to avoid scans. For example it isn't reasonable to expect Minmatar scouts to fit more than 2 damps and a proto cloak to avoid scans (other than focused active scanners). Making mediums less detectable is maybe a good idea, but if you make dampening too difficult for scouts there will only be Gallente scouts or Amarr radar scouts. A large variety of fits and strategies will be lost and I don't understand why. You could maybe buff active scan angle or cool down. Trouble is you are opening a can of worms. It's prety balanced right now. Messing with it is likely to break things. The most important thing to remember is that you do not counter scouts by scanning them. Your aren't supposed to. You don't need to. If you want to make it this way you are barking up the wrong tree and not embracing the diversity that makes this game so great.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5736	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:37:00 - [134] - Quote Those are some fantastic opinions, Magnus. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5741	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:50:00 - [135] - Quote I suggest we improve MedFrame and Commando base capacity for EWAR, but in doing so, we must avoid potential role overlap with the EWAR Scout. We all agreed that HP-tanked Scouts out-assaulting Assaults was bad. Same logic holds for EWAR Scouts and EWAR. Suggestion: * Scan Range: +3m Logi, +5m Assault, +5m Commando * Scan Profile: -5 dB Assault * Scan Precision: -5 dB Commando (equal to Assault) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
hfderrtgvcd 738	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:50:00 - [136] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Can you please quit lying now Adipem? I am getting really tired of you being deceitful. Dude, if I were trying to deceive anyone, I wouldn't be providing spreadsheets. How 'bout you put together the progressions for yourself instead of peddling platitudes and ad hominem? Feel free to use my math. I already did, last page, go look. Then come back here and say something. Fact of the matter is you ARE being misleading and you know it, that is known as lying. You're right. I forgot to account for +10% proto cloak. Here are the new figures: 19 dB -Proto MN Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active 18 dB - Proto CA/AM Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active 15 dB - Proto GA Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active Your model still isn't reasonable. You can't require an entire class to be max-skilled, always run proto gear, always run proto cloak, and always run straight damps, all to avoid being permascanned. The only way to pitch this is to do away with the GA Logi bonus and find a new bonus for the GA Scout. The current model is working. Your model is impractical and imbalanced. Right now it is just perma-hide with little to no sacrifice, THAT IS NOT WORKING. A level 5 scout with a proto cloak and two proto modules is hardly little to no sacrifice. Additionally, the cloak has a limited duration, so you can stop saying permahide. EWAR is fine right now. Both seekers and hiders have to sacrifice a lot and neither will win over the other 100% of the time. You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3595	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:54:00 - [137] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Those are some fantastic opinions you have there. But because Magnus says so is not a legitimate basis for change. I'm afraid I must counterpoint that "Because Adipem Nothi says so" is not a valid reason for things to remain as they are.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3595	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:55:00 - [138] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I suggest we improve MedFrame and Commando base capacity for EWAR, but in doing so, we must avoid potential role overlap with the EWAR Scout. We all agreed that HP-tanked Scouts out-assaulting Assaults was bad. Same logic holds for EWAR Scouts and EWAR. Suggestion: * Scan Range: +3m Logi, +5m Assault, +5m Commando * Scan Profile: -5 dB Assault * Scan Precision: -5 dB Commando (equal to Assault) Unless there is a significant Db drop on both the commando AND the assault your numbers mean jack there hoss. No change to status quo at all.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5741	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:55:00 - [139] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Those are some fantastic opinions you have there. But because Magnus says so is not a legitimate basis for change. I'm afraid I must counterpoint that "Because Adipem Nothi says so" is not a valid reason for things to remain as they are. I didn't put things where they are. Rattati did. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3595	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:57:00 - [140] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Those are some fantastic opinions you have there. But because Magnus says so is not a legitimate basis for change. I'm afraid I must counterpoint that "Because Adipem Nothi says so" is not a valid reason for things to remain as they are. I didn't put things where they are. Rattati did. Actually Rattati hasn't touched EWAR mechanics. he simply has to try and work around them, and there IS NO WORKAROUND. there is only permahide and permascan, and it's crap either way. don't blame him for the steamer on the doorstep in this case.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5741	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:58:00 - [141] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: No change to status quo at all. Absolutely correct. Status quo holds that competitive EWAR is the realm of the Scout and the GA Logi. Other roles can benefit from EWAR -- moreso if buffed -- but they can't expect to compete in those capacities with EWAR specialists. Just like Assaults can't expect to wield HMGs. Just like Scouts can't expect to wield 2000HP. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3595	Posted - 2014.10.11 20:02:00 - [142] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: No change to status quo at all. Absolutely correct. Status quo holds that competitive EWAR is the realm of the Scout and the GA Logi. Other roles can benefit from EWAR -- moreso if buffed -- but they can't expect to compete in those capacities with EWAR specialists. Just like Assaults can't expect to wield HMGs. Just like Scouts can't expect to wield 2000HP. Just like Heavies can't expect to carry 4 EQ. We all have our specialties. If "assault lite" is any indication, things get ugly when the lines get blurred. detection and radar is a thing all suits should have access to. Not just One suit to rule it all. And still... I maintain that an RNG needs to be used. None of this perma anything crap. You can minimize your stealth, you can maximize your detection, but both are hardcapped and cannot be permascan/permahide. Every argument you have made has basically been in favor of scouts should never get caught except by eyeball (good luck with that) Having either option means the system is inherently unbalanced.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1143	Posted - 2014.10.11 20:06:00 - [143] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Those are some fantastic opinions you have there. But because Magnus says so is not a legitimate basis for change. You can repeat your ad hominem all you want, doesn' t make it anymore right. Last I checked, you are the one using the "Call to authority here" not I. I am using actual game stats here. How about you defend your position: Is it ok that an assault with 3x complex enhancers will never see a caldari/gallente scout with a cloak, a cloak that also makes it so direct line of sight doesn't show on tacnet? Is it ok that 1 cloak and 1 damp make caldari/gallente scout LITERALLY undetectable for ALL medium suits (sans gallogi with one specific, narrow, mostly inactive (87.5% of the time inactive) scanner? Is it ok for a 900 eHP scout suit to be faster, run longer and more often, harder to hit (hitbox), do the same amount of damage, have an extra equipment slot, see farther, use OHK weapons directly from cloak, and remain completely hidden to an assault? Is it ok that medium suits can never really take part in the passive (scan/range) EWAR game because they are just SOO hopelessly worse? Is it a problem that EWAR in it's current stat has VERY little interplay outside of the scout suit? Is it a problem that no one uses medium suits for EWAR? Are none of these things problem? Fixing EWAR
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3595	Posted - 2014.10.11 20:17:00 - [144] - Quote What I'm seeing is that most of the arguments here are predicated on the BS idea that if scouts are not 100% undetectable they are useless. That was true before the cloak existed. It is no longer true. However, permascan and permahide are BOTH BAD and need to be removed.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5749	Posted - 2014.10.11 20:23:00 - [145] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: How about you defend your position: 1. Is it ok that an assault with 3x complex enhancers will never see a caldari/gallente scout with a cloak, a cloak that also makes it so direct line of sight doesn't show on tacnet? 2. Is it ok that 1 cloak and 1 damp make caldari/gallente scout LITERALLY undetectable for ALL medium suits (sans gallogi with one specific, narrow, mostly inactive (87.5% of the time inactive) scanner? 3. Is it ok for a 900 eHP scout suit to be faster, run longer and more often, harder to hit (hitbox), do the same amount of damage, have an extra equipment slot, see farther, use OHK weapons directly from cloak, and remain completely hidden to an assault? 4. Is it ok that medium suits can never really take part in the passive (scan/range) EWAR game because they are just SOO hopelessly worse? 5. Is it a problem that EWAR in it's current stat has VERY little interplay outside of the scout suit? 6. Is it a problem that no one uses medium suits for EWAR? 1. Absolutely. Counter recon is a specialty and squad sight is shared. If everyone were great at counter recon, we'd detract from the benefit of having an EWAR-fitted Scout or GA Logi in squad. 2. Yes. 3. Knives don't mix with plates, and Shotguns don't OHK much outside of other Scouts. No Scout has been good at all things at once since the pre-Alpha GalScout. 4. MedFrames engage in meaningful EWAR against other MedFrames, though this is an area we can improve upon to encourage EWAR module usage and build diversity. 5. Can't comment. I don't know that this is true. 6. I see little problem. If a merc wants to compete in EWAR games, he'd do well to use an EWAR suit. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1143	Posted - 2014.10.11 20:25:00 - [146] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: What I'm seeing is that most of the arguments here are predicated on the BS idea that if scouts are not 100% undetectable they are useless. That was true before the cloak existed. It is no longer true. However, permascan and permahide are BOTH BAD and need to be removed. Thank you. Now I realize that we are stuck with a ton of the mechanics that are in the client, so that is why I propsed the solution I have now. There is no permascan (hell the focused scanner is off 87.5% of the time). There is no perma cloak (other than the gallente scout, but the it is a sheet of paper as it should be.) Now there is an entire range of fitting possiblities and counters to that, always keeping in mind that the scout should be hidden about 90% of the time given the same amount of effort. I honestly can not think of a more balanced way with turning this game into spamming certain types of equipment. Fixing EWAR
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3597	Posted - 2014.10.11 20:39:00 - [147] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: 1. Absolutely. Counter recon is a specialty and squad sight is shared. If everyone were great at counter recon, we'd detract from the benefit of having an EWAR-fitted Scout or GA Logi in squad. 2. Yes. 3. Knives don't mix with plates, and Shotguns don't OHK much outside of other Scouts. No Scout has been good at all things at once since the pre-Alpha GalScout. 4. MedFrames engage in meaningful EWAR against other MedFrames, though this is an area we can improve upon to encourage EWAR module usage and build diversity. 5. Can't comment. I don't know that this is true. 6. I see little problem. If a merc wants to compete in EWAR games, he'd do well to use an EWAR suit. 1: Not absolutely. Counter-recon should be a thing you can set up other suits for, not "oh you need a scout for counter-recon." CCP has said if the only counter for an item is itself (in this case, scouts) then it is unbalanced and needs changing. 2: Absolutely not. One cloak and one damp means a calscout or galscout can run a hard tank while being the stealthiest things on the field. "I can run Assault-grade EHP and be undetectable" is NOT sacrificing for specialty at all. 3: The sheer number of scouts seen in the field utterly disagrees with you. The scouts abusing bad physics to kill fully loaded and undamaged Sentinels with HMGs casually in CQC straight fights disagrees with you. 4: There can be no meaningful detection/evasion interaction when the ranges that you can detect are shorter than someone's dck and you will never detect an entire class of suits no matter HOW many precision mods you add to your fit. 5: Here's a hint: how many protofit links (that aren't scouts) do you see lauded for genius carrying any EWAR mods ever? I run precision mods on my sentinel SPECIFICALLY to catch assaults. Yeah doesn't matter, I can take a leak at greater distances. Anyone who puts a damp or a precision mod or a range extender on ANY other suit gets mocked without mercy because of the binary always win/always fail nature of EWAR. 6: EWAR is an entirely different thing. THIS discussion has nothing to do with EWAR, it has to do with signals intelligence. If this was true EWAR there would be suits purposed to jam the sht out of everyone's radar, including enemy scouts, disrupt shared vision and cause false blips to appear all over the place making people chase ghosts.
Jebus McKing lol Proto 753	Posted - 2014.10.11 20:42:00 - [148] - Quote The problem with the scout is not that they can hide from scans permanently. The problem is that the dampening capabilities of other suits are not good enough to hide from the precision scouts have. What you propose is that it should be easier to detect scouts to restore balance? Instead of making everyone light up on everyones radars and the guy with the most HP winning, I propose to make it easier for assaults to hide from scout scans as well. Balance would be restored and the one who actually pays attention to their surroundings - instead of just shooting at red dots as soon as they appear on their radars - wins. Give assaults a base profile of 44db, so they can actually hide from scouts not fit for EWAR, if they choose to fit dampeners. Make scout bonuses modifiy the efficiency of EWAR modules. This way scouts would actually have to choose if they want to fit EWAR of tank because they can't have both anymore. And lastly remove wallhack TacNet chevrons and directional arrows, so even if the scout can see you on the radar they still can't simply outplay you because they don't know which way you are looking anymore. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1143	Posted - 2014.10.11 20:46:00 - [149] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: How about you defend your position: 1. Is it ok that an assault with 3x complex enhancers will never see a caldari/gallente scout with a cloak, a cloak that also makes it so direct line of sight doesn't show on tacnet? 2. Is it ok that 1 cloak and 1 damp make caldari/gallente scout LITERALLY undetectable for ALL medium suits (sans gallogi with one specific, narrow, mostly inactive (87.5% of the time inactive) scanner? 3. Is it ok for a 900 eHP scout suit to be faster, run longer and more often, harder to hit (hitbox), do the same amount of damage, have an extra equipment slot, see farther, use OHK weapons directly from cloak, and remain completely hidden to an assault? 4. Is it ok that medium suits can never really take part in the passive (scan/range) EWAR game because they are just SOO hopelessly worse? 5. Is it a problem that EWAR in it's current stat has VERY little interplay outside of the scout suit? 6. Is it a problem that no one uses medium suits for EWAR? 1. Absolutely. Counter Recon is a specialty and squad sight is shared. If everyone were great at counter-recon, we'd detract from the benefit of having an EWAR-fitted Scout or GA Logi in squad. 2. Yes. 3. Knives don't mix with plates, and Shotguns don't OHK much outside of other Scouts. No Scout has been good at all things at once since the pre-Alpha GalScout. 4. MedFrames engage in meaningful EWAR against other MedFrames, though this is an area we can improve upon to encourage EWAR module usage and build diversity. 5. Can't comment. I don't know that this is true. 6. I see little problem. If a merc wants to compete in EWAR games, he'd do well to use an EWAR suit. 1) So you are saying go scout or go home.. thanks. I was pretty sure that was your position, it is just good to here you say it. 2) So you are saying for nearly no sacrifice you get to be the undisputed best, with no interplay. Yep, that should definately lead to more interesting gameplay..... 3) Thanks for not answering my question..... with a creodon and 2x dmg mods, it rarely takes two hits to kill non sentinels, and you can fire 2 shots before a sentinel can turn around.... 4) Also a non-answer 5) Why would you, you only run scouts. 6) Once again, go scout or go home. Can anyone name for me the suits that are DAMPENING specialized... oh right that would be the caldari/gallente scouts. I appreciate it, you have illuminated your position quite well. You have no interest in suit diversity, nor do you have an interest in any meaningful sacrifices when it comes to the scout suit and EWAR. You think a scout that lightly fits for ewar should remain unchallenged by the other suits , even when they fully dedicate to that end. I guess because of your belief in exlusionary specialization, like scouts with ewar/cloaking. Non-assaults/commandos should do crap damage comparatively Non-logis should have at max 1 equipment Non-sentinels should have low HP Because why should anyone else ever be competitive in those areas? They already belong to suits, and no suit should have competitive versatile fit-outs... well none except for the scout that is. No wonder you think the current system is fine, it suits scouts just fine. EDIT: Breaking stuff put it better than i did Fixing EWAR
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 275	Posted - 2014.10.11 20:50:00 - [150] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I suggest we improve MedFrame and Commando base capacity for EWAR, but in doing so, we must avoid potential role overlap with the EWAR Scout. We all agreed that HP-tanked Scouts out-assaulting Assaults was bad. Same logic holds for EWAR Scouts and EWAR. Suggestion: * Scan Range: +3m Logi, +5m Assault, +5m Commando * Scan Profile: -5 dB Assault * Scan Precision: -5 dB Commando (equal to Assault) Unless there is a significant Db drop on both the commando AND the assault your numbers mean jack there hoss. No change to status quo at all. Actually a -5 db on mediums has a significant effect on the current EWAR balance. Mediums would be able to avoid unmodded Gallente scout scans with only 1 damp rather than 2 like now. This is a significant change as Gallente scouts without precision mods are common. Mediums can therefore get on a similar EWAR footing to a large number of scouts (unmodded Gal, Cal and Min) with just one module. This would immediately bring EWAR closer between scouts and mediums as they will be able to choose, without compromising their fit significantly, to hide from common scout scans. I totally get what you are saying about the whole scanning system being too binary. There would be lots of ways of improving it if you completely rework it. Unfortunately that isn't on the cards, we are stuck with the systems we have. In legion then yes, it would be much better if profile was based on distance to target, movement speed, weapons fire, type of weapon etc. You could implement all sorts of factors that make the whole thing very unpredictable and dynamic. However we are stuck with the systems we have now. As for mediums participating in EWAR, I use it extensively with my logi and half my assault fits carry an active scanner. I use a scanner on my LAV that I drive around in my assault suit. Mediums could counter this with a profile dampener. I would like to see active scanners used more, but it's not a huge problem. In my experience assault suits are definitely on the rise, and scouts in decline. Maybe people need to spend less time on the forum and go play the game.

Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 275	Posted - 2014.10.11 20:54:00 - [151] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: The problem with the scout is not that they can hide from scans permanently. The problem is that the dampening capabilities of other suits are not good enough to hide from the precision scouts have. What you propose is that it should be easier to detect scouts to restore balance? Instead of making everyone light up on everyones radars and the guy with the most HP winning, I propose to make it easier for assaults to hide from scout scans as well. Balance would be restored and the one who actually pays attention to their surroundings - instead of just shooting at red dots as soon as they appear on their radars - wins. Give assaults a base profile of 44db, so they can actually hide from scouts not fit for EWAR, if they choose to fit dampeners. Make scout bonuses modifiy the efficiency of EWAR modules. This way scouts would actually have to choose if they want to fit EWAR or tank because they can't have both anymore. And lastly remove wallhack TacNet chevrons and directional arrows, so even if the scout can see you on the radar they still can't simply outplay you because they don't know which way you are looking anymore. I don't agree with your last point about chevrons and arrow, and you wouldn't need to change scout bonuses if you reduced assault profile to 44db, but otherwise I totally agree. This is what I have been trying to say (whilst being generally ignored). If EWAR does need modifying (and I'm not convinced it even does), this would be a good way to go about it.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5766	Posted - 2014.10.11 20:59:00 - [152] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: How about you defend your position: 1. Is it ok that an assault with 3x complex enhancers will never see a caldari/gallente scout with a cloak, a cloak that also makes it so direct line of sight doesn't show on tacnet? 2. Is it ok that 1 cloak and 1 damp make caldari/gallente scout LITERALLY undetectable for ALL medium suits (sans gallogi with one specific, narrow, mostly inactive (87.5% of the time inactive) scanner? 3. Is it ok for a 900 eHP scout suit to be faster, run longer and more often, harder to hit (hitbox), do the same amount of damage, have an extra equipment slot, see farther, use OHK weapons directly from cloak, and remain completely hidden to an assault? 4. Is it ok that medium suits can never really take part in the passive (scan/range) EWAR game because they are just SOO hopelessly worse? 5. Is it a problem that EWAR in it's current stat has VERY little interplay outside of the scout suit? 6. Is it a problem that no one uses medium suits for EWAR? 1. Absolutely. Counter Recon is a specialty and squad sight is shared. If everyone were great at counter-recon, we'd detract from the benefit of having an EWAR-fitted Scout or GA Logi in squad. 2. Yes. 3. Knives don't mix with plates, and Shotguns don't OHK much outside of other Scouts. No Scout has been good at all things at once since the pre-Alpha GalScout. 4. MedFrames engage in meaningful EWAR against other MedFrames, though this is an area we can improve upon to encourage EWAR module usage and build diversity. 5. Can't comment. I don't know that this is true. 6. I see little problem. If a merc wants to compete in EWAR games, he'd do well to use an EWAR suit. 1) So you are saying go scout or go home.. thanks. I was pretty sure that was your position, it is just good to here you say it. 2) So you are saying for nearly no sacrifice you get to be the undisputed best, with no interplay. Yep, that should definately lead to more interesting gameplay..... 3) Thanks for not answering my question..... with a creodon and 2x dmg mods, it rarely takes two hits to kill non sentinels, and you can fire 2 shots before a sentinel can turn around.... 4) Also a non-answer 5) Why would you, you only run scouts. 6) Once again, go scout or go home. Can anyone name for me the suits that are DAMPENING specialized... oh right that would be the caldari/gallente scouts. 7) I appreciate it, you have illuminated your position quite well. 1. Correct. Precision-enhanced AM Scouts or GA Scouts and GA Logis are all good at scanning dampened Scouts. Its their specialty. If you want to scan dampened Scouts, add one of these specialists to your squad. His scan results are shared with the rest of you, so you can focus on doing what you do best ... whatever that may be. 2. If uparmored GA Scouts or shield-tanked CA Scouts are in fact causing problems, we're more than willing to discuss means by which to fix those problems. I think I've made that much clear. 3. How's the uber scout in your original scenario going to reach 900 HP if he's running damage amps and dampeners? 4. OK. 5. Correct. I only run Scouts. And I share my passive and active scan results with my squadmates. Go team! 6. Right. EWAR specialists are Scouts and GA Logis. If you want to be the best at EWAR, you're best off using an EWAR specialist. Nothing sinister about it. 7. No prob, cupcake. Glad to clear things up for you. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5769	Posted - 2014.10.11 21:18:00 - [153] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: EDIT: Breaking stuff put it better than i did You two should put your heads together and work on this ... Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3597	Posted - 2014.10.11 21:21:00 - [154] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: EDIT: Breaking stuff put it better than i did You two should put your heads together and work on this ... CCP should put an RNG in so they have something to tweak to make sure scouts aren't undetectable and to insure I don't figure out a way to see you and kill you in a fatsuit 100% of the time.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1143	Posted - 2014.10.11 21:22:00 - [155] - Quote Shotty, for the last 4 or so pages all you have done is plug your ears and constantly preach about how scouts should be the best at ewar to the exclusion of the rest of the suits, basically this: Adipem Nothi wrote: [SCOUT SUPREMECY. At least you admitted that you have no interest in balance, only unchallenged scouts and boring meta-game. You are convinced that EWAR is fine right now, and the first time you admitted that I should have ignored such idiocy, but I guess I can throw you on ignore now. I do appreciate the pointing out of CCPs odd rounding exceptions though. I'll just wait for a different moron to tell me how an assault who sacrifices 3x midslots for complex precision enhancers (~200HP or ~ 20% damage) shouldn't be able to pick up a 850 HP double damage modded gallente scout. Balance.... Fixing EWAR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 373	Posted - 2014.10.11 22:10:00 - [156] - Quote Since this thread has reached "brass tacks" level with the establishment that only Scouts evidently are to counter Scout prec/damp except for he GalLogi, who if he carries the top protorype scanner can maybe counter for 5seconds, I'd like to run an idea past everyone. I've asked this before, in other places and times and am curious based on the last 8 pages what the answer would be here. What if CCP were to add a vehicle scanner that has 10+ db detection, is cheap and has the same fitting stats as the existing scanner? Hell, what if the existing vehicle scanner just had its sensitivity lowered to 10 db? It'd give ALL frames an easily accessible tool to use in the EWARs and maybe balance this whole scenario without major mechanical/statistical recoding. And before ppl jump up about Heavies in LAVs creeping on them, LAVs, especially with a scannner on, don't creep. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3598	Posted - 2014.10.11 22:14:00 - [157] - Quote I got hatemail for driving over a cloak scout.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5778	Posted - 2014.10.11 22:32:00 - [158] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: EDIT: Breaking stuff put it better than i did You two should put your heads together and work on this ... CCP should put an RNG in so they have something to tweak to make sure scouts aren't undetectable and to insure I don't figure out a way to see you and kill you in a fatsuit 100% of the time. Your fail rate against Scouts is 100%? Magnus, this man need our help. Have you considered trying to pitch permascan? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3598	Posted - 2014.10.11 22:34:00 - [159] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: EDIT: Breaking stuff put it better than i did You two should put your heads together and work on this ... CCP should put an RNG in so they have something to tweak to make sure scouts aren't undetectable and to insure I don't figure out a way to see you and kill you in a fatsuit 100% of the time. Your fail rate against Scouts is 100%? Magnus, this man need our help. Have you considered trying to pitch permascan? You should train reading comprehension 1. It might help your posting. 1/10 for that one. try again and be funny next time.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1143	Posted - 2014.10.11 22:41:00 - [160] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: EDIT: Breaking stuff put it better than i did You two should put your heads together and work on this ... CCP should put an RNG in so they have something to tweak to make sure scouts aren't undetectable and to insure I don't figure out a way to see you and kill you in a fatsuit 100% of the time. Your fail rate against Scouts is 100%? Magnus, this man need our help. Have you considered trying to pitch permascan? You should train reading comprehension 1. It might help your posting. 1/10 for that one. try again and be funny next time. Ever argue with those people who as soon as you suggest the tiniest thing they just throw their hands up in the air claiming the sky is falling? That's shotty right there. Reasonable person: Hey maybe we should make it so other suits can still see cloaked scouts if they fit for it and the scout doesn't? Shotty: PERMASCAN!!! PERMASCAN!!! NOOOOO!!!! Fixing EWAR

Zombie Knife 31	Posted - 2014.10.11 23:01:00 - [161] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: ... Magnus: Wah, wah, wah scouts have wallhacks, I want them too! And as soon as assaults have the precision to scan scouts you gonna complain that their scan range is not good enough to keep you from getting shot by a scout and Rail Rifle from 70m away?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5795	Posted - 2014.10.11 23:46:00 - [162] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Hey maybe we should make it so other suits can still see cloaked scouts if they fit for it and the scout doesn't. Fun Facts, again: Logi + 1 Precision Enhancer scans undampened MN/AM Scouts Logi + 2 Precision Enhancers scans any undampened Scout Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1145	Posted - 2014.10.11 23:58:00 - [163] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Hey maybe we should make it so other suits can still see cloaked scouts if they fit for it and the scout doesn't. Fun Facts, again: Logi + 1 Precision Enhancer scans undampened MN/AM Scouts Logi + 2 Precision Enhancers scans any undampened Scout Fun lies again (you know, misrepresenting the truth) always neglecting the cloak Truth: Logi + 2 complex enhancer for amarr/minmatar with only cloak Logi + 3 complex enahancer with only cloak for cal/gal Logi... never for 1 damp 1 cloak on any scout. yeah that's balance..... Fixing EWAR
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2532	Posted - 2014.10.12 00:57:00 - [164] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Ever argue with those people who as soon as you suggest the tiniest thing they just throw their hands up in the air claiming the sky is falling? That's shotty right there. Reasonable person: Hey maybe we should make it so other suits can still see cloaked scouts if they fit for it and the scout doesn't? Shotty: PERMASCAN!!! PERMASCAN!!! NOOOOO!!!! Oh, the irony. Chokes while laughing and dies "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2532	Posted - 2014.10.12 01:05:00 - [165] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Hey maybe we should make it so other suits can still see cloaked scouts if they fit for it and the scout doesn't. Fun Facts, again: Logi + 1 Precision Enhancer scans undampened MN/AM Scouts Logi + 2 Precision Enhancers scans any undampened Scout Fun lies again (you know, misrepresenting the truth) always neglecting the cloak Truth: Logi + 2 complex enhancer for amarr/minmatar with only cloak Logi + 3 complex enahancer with only cloak for cal/gal Logi... never for 1 damp 1 cloak on any scout. yeah that's balance..... Why don't we look at math for a second here...theres a site called proto fits so that you won't make silly little politically biased and very convenient mistakes like this in the future to help your position. http://www.protofits.com says 1x ComPrec-32.4 dB prec. 2x ComPrec-26.77 dB prec. M/A scout-35 dB unskilled dampening, 31.5 dB fully skilled Full skilled with proto cloak-28.35 (note: this won't fit on any minmitar scout unless serious sacrifices are made) +1 CompDamp-23.63 requires 3 ComPrec on a Logi, which seems reasonable "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1147	Posted - 2014.10.12 01:54:00 - [166] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Hey maybe we should make it so other suits can still see cloaked scouts if they fit for it and the scout doesn't. Fun Facts, again: Logi + 1 Precision Enhancer scans undampened MN/AM Scouts Logi + 2 Precision Enhancers scans any undampened Scout Fun lies again (you know, misrepresenting the truth) always neglecting the cloak Truth: Logi + 2 complex enhancer for amarr/minmatar with only cloak Logi + 3 complex enahancer with only cloak for cal/gal Logi... never for 1 damp 1 cloak on any scout. yeah that's balance..... Why don't we look at math for a second here...theres a site called proto fits so that you won't make silly little politically biased and very convenient mistakes like this in the future to help your position. http://www.protofits.com says 1x ComPrec-32.4 dB prec. 2x ComPrec-26.77 dB prec. M/A scout-35 dB unskilled dampening, 31.5 dB fully skilled Full skilled with proto cloak-28.35 (note: this won't fit on any minmitar scout unless serious sacrifices are made) +1 CompDamp-23.63 requires 3 ComPrec on a Logi, which seems reasonable Lets do the calculations free hand: 35 (base damp) * 0.9 (lvl 5 skill) * 0.75 (complex dampner) * 0.9 (prototype cloak) = 21.265 Not sure what planet 28.35 * 0.75 = 23.63, but not on this one. Congrats, you just failed at simple, simple math. Do me a favor, type out all the formulas you use to come to your conclusion in the future. Mine was wrong based not upon my math, but a CCP deciding truncating is only useful sometimes. You can see yourself out now. Fixing EWAR
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1071	Posted - 2014.10.12 01:56:00 - [167] - Quote Why does EWAR need to be fixed? Its perfectly fine as is Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)
Apocalyptic Destroyer KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 175	Posted - 2014.10.12 02:34:00 - [168] - Quote If you change it to three, there would be no need to skill into it. You're better off skilling into gallente \\CPM's Are Forum Warriors// Pain is weakness leaving the body. You Underestimate Me, ADS, Tanker, Heavy, Scout
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1147	Posted - 2014.10.12 02:54:00 - [169] - Quote Apocalyptic Destroyer wrote: If you change it to three, there would be no need to skill into it. You're better off skilling into gallente In reference too? Do you mean the amarr precision bonus? Actually with the adjustments, the amarr precision bonus would be able to scan a cal/gallente scout with two damps and no cloak, or with one damp and 1 cloak. The caldari/gallente scouts would remain hidden with two damps and a cloak. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5802	Posted - 2014.10.12 02:57:00 - [170] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Apocalyptic Destroyer wrote: If you change it to three, there would be no need to skill into it. You're better off skilling into gallente In reference too? Do you mean the amarr precision bonus? Actually with the adjustments, the amarr precision bonus would be able to scan a cal/gallente scout with two damps and no cloak, or with one damp and 1 cloak. The caldari/gallente scouts would remain hidden with two damps and a cloak. What could an AM Scout scan that a GA Scout couldn't? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5802	Posted - 2014.10.12 03:09:00 - [171] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP should put an RNG in so they have something to tweak to make sure scouts aren't undetectable and to insure I don't figure out a way to see you and kill you in a fatsuit 100% of the time. Your fail rate against Scouts is 100%? Magnus, this man need our help. Have you considered trying to pitch permascan? You should train reading comprehension 1. It might help your posting. "to see you and kill you in a fatsuit 100% of the time." ^ Your exact words, sport. What else could this possibly mean? Scout sees and kills fatsuit 100% of the time? Fatsuit sees and kills Scout 100% of the time? That 100% of the time part sure is exciting. But what exactly do mean by 100% of the time? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1147	Posted - 2014.10.12 03:25:00 - [172] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Apocalyptic Destroyer wrote: If you change it to three, there would be no need to skill into it. You're better off skilling into gallente In reference too? Do you mean the amarr precision bonus? Actually with the adjustments, the amarr precision bonus would be able to scan a cal/gallente scout with two damps and no cloak, or with one damp and 1 cloak. The caldari/gallente scouts would remain hidden with two damps and a cloak. What could an AM Scout scan that a GA Scout couldn't? * Assuming 2 complex precision enhancers. PS: You do realize that simply equipping cloak doesn't apply a dampening bonus, right? Cloak has to be active for the bonus to apply. Basic Cloak offers no bonus. Advanced offers 5% (when active). Proto offers 10% (when active). Just in case you weren't aware. Yep I knew that damps are bonused only when on, which is why they beat suits that are equally bonused at finding them when otherwise fitted equally. Also, you always balanced around proto, always. If the lower tiered stuff is underpowered (like swarms were) then you can just boost those a little, if the higher tier stuff is OP... everything might need to get nerfed. Thats why you balanced with max stats and proto. Let me think of a good way to say this: The amarr bonus allows the amarr to scan out the caldari/gallente suits with equal dampening and no cloak The gallente bonus does not. The gallente bonus allows it to see non-dampening-specialized suit with a cloak and no damp. Here let me put it another way: e=enhancers and d=dampeners and c=cloak (advanced or better) Amarr bonus can see cal/gal suits as long as e=d, c=0 amarr bonus can see cal/gal suits as long as e=(d-1)+c This interplay allows for complex fitting arrangements and even a pretty cool standoff between caldari/amarr scouts (since they each have two, the amarr scout can see it without cloak on, but can't see it without) Gallente bonus can see AM/Min suits with e=(d-1)+cloak Does this make sense? The gallente bonus is still very useful, but not competitive like the amarr bonus is. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5802	Posted - 2014.10.12 03:30:00 - [173] - Quote Simple question, restated: What specific unit(s) could an AM Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers scan that a max-skill GA Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers could not scan? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1147	Posted - 2014.10.12 03:34:00 - [174] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Simple question, restated: What specific unit(s) could an AM Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers scan that a max-skill GA Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers could not scan? Caldari/Gallente scouts with 2 dampners and no cloaks I am sure there is more, but this is what you want right? Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5802	Posted - 2014.10.12 03:42:00 - [175] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Simple question, restated: What specific unit(s) could an AM Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers scan that a max-skill GA Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers could not scan? Caldari/Gallente scouts with 2 dampners and no cloaks When you and I first met prior to 1.8, you were very upset that AM Scout had no meaningful role or specialty. In your mind today, do the two lone instances above constitute a specialty? PS: You were right about the AM Scout. From 1.8 through 1.8 Bravo, there was no function is could perform substantially better than the GA Scout. It just got a meaningful role in Hotfix Charlie. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1147	Posted - 2014.10.12 03:51:00 - [176] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Simple question, restated: What specific unit(s) could an AM Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers scan that a max-skill GA Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers could not scan? Caldari/Gallente scouts with 2 dampners and no cloaks In your mind, do those two lone instances constitute a specialty? When you and I first met, you were very upset that AM Scout had no meaningful role or specialty. I think it is about the same usefulness as the bonuses are now, and a good reason why cal/gal remain the dominant scouts on the field. Giving any scout more than 1 EWAR bonus was always a horrible decision, especially considering that there are only 3 EWAR attributes. I stand by it being absolutely the wrong decision, and that won't change. Unfortunately I have battered wife syndrome, I am so used to amarr stuff just being underwhelming/missing at this point that I'll take what I can get. In reality, I think, it should go like this: All scouts should be 40/40 precision/damp Dampeners/enhancers should be of equal stregnth Amarr get precision, gallente get dampening, caldari get range, and minmatar get 39/39 precision/damp and hacking (thereby making them solely invisible by default and the definitive stealthy scouts.) 2nd bonus: Amarr get stamina, minmatar knives..... I haven't worked out the other two yet... I realized this proposal was a fools errand. This proposal would fall on deaf ears as the scout community has a collective aneurysm. EDIT: hell you could even make all of the bonuses to the main pistol sidearm damage/blast radius... IDK. I think it would be pretty cool though. Fixing EWAR
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2538	Posted - 2014.10.12 05:16:00 - [177] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Hey maybe we should make it so other suits can still see cloaked scouts if they fit for it and the scout doesn't. Fun Facts, again: Logi + 1 Precision Enhancer scans undampened MN/AM Scouts Logi + 2 Precision Enhancers scans any undampened Scout Fun lies again (you know, misrepresenting the truth) always neglecting the cloak Truth: Logi + 2 complex enhancer for amarr/minmatar with only cloak Logi + 3 complex enahancer with only cloak for cal/gal Logi... never for 1 damp 1 cloak on any scout. yeah that's balance..... Why don't we look at math for a second here...theres a site called proto fits so that you won't make silly little politically biased and very convenient mistakes like this in the future to help your position. http://www.protofits.com says 1x ComPrec-32.4 dB prec. 2x ComPrec-26.77 dB prec. M/A scout-35 dB unskilled dampening, 31.5 dB fully skilled Full skilled with proto cloak-28.35 (note: this won't fit on any minmitar scout unless serious sacrifices are made) +1 CompDamp-23.63 requires 3 ComPrec on a Logi, which seems reasonable Lets do the calculations free hand: 35 (base profile) * 0.9 (lvl 5 skill) * 0.75 (complex dampner) * 0.9 (prototype cloak) = 21.265 Not sure what planet 28.35 * 0.75 = 23.63, but not on this one. Congrats, you just failed at simple, simple math. Do me a favor, type out all the formulas you use to come to your conclusion in the future. Mine was wrong based not upon my aritmetic, but a variable that CCP deciding truncating is only useful sometimes, something you helped point out and I admitted to. I did not make any simple arithmetic mistakes. You can see yourself out now. EDIT: Also I am glad that you at least admit that a logi with 3 complex precision enhancers should be able to scan a scout with just a cloak and one damp on. Hey guess what, you just agreed with one of the results of my OP, thanks man. How would you get that "reasonable" result? Scout default profile goes to 40, complex damps go to 20%. Tell you what, since you think it is "reasonable" for the situation above, why don't we jointly make a new OP that details that, along with scanner changes ? I would be completely willing to work with you on this to have a good counter-view. The game does math weird. Protofits is hooked up to the SDE so it gives you the correct numbers. You are wrong. Also, the 23.63 is without a cloak. +Cloak should put scout under 3x precision "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2538	Posted - 2014.10.12 05:18:00 - [178] - Quote Zindorak wrote: Why does EWAR need to be fixed? Its perfectly fine as is Because scouts are still almost as viable to run as medium or heavy frames. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5807	Posted - 2014.10.12 06:16:00 - [179] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Simple question, restated: What specific unit(s) could an AM Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers scan that a max-skill GA Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers could not scan? Caldari/Gallente scouts with 2 dampners and no cloaks In your mind, do those two lone instances constitute a specialty? When you and I first met, you were very upset that AM Scout had no meaningful role or specialty. I think it is about the same usefulness as the bonuses are now, and a good reason why cal/gal remain the dominant scouts on the field. Giving any scout more than 1 EWAR bonus was always a horrible decision, especially considering that there are only 3 EWAR attributes. I stand by it being absolutely the wrong decision, and that won't change. Unfortunately I have battered wife syndrome, I am so used to amarr stuff just being underwhelming/missing at this point that I'll take what I can get. In reality, I think, it should go like this: All scouts should be 40/40 precision/damp Dampeners/enhancers should be of equal stregnth Amarr get precision, gallente get dampening, caldari get range, and minmatar get 39/39 precision/damp and hacking (thereby making them solely invisible by default and the definitive stealthy scouts.) 2nd bonus: Amarr get stamina, minmatar knives..... I haven't worked out the other two yet... I realized this proposal was a fools errand. This proposal would fall on deaf ears as the scout community has a collective aneurysm. EDIT: hell you could even make all of the secondary bonuses to the main pistol sidearm damage/blast radius... IDK. I think it would be pretty cool though. EDIT 2: hell even those EWAR bonuses could be module based, and probably should be. The damage/blast radius/ammo/charge up or whatever to racial pistol though... golden. That reminds me ... A few months back, we racked our brains in the barbershop trying to come up with distinct roles for the four scouts. Ideas differed wildly for what would be ideal (or outright unacceptable) for each scout's role and racial bonuses. It got ugly fast. No two scouts saw eye-to-eye on much of anything, but we all agreed that the big problems facing our class had to be addressed: * AM Scout had no meaningful role and was underutilized. * MN Scout could not compete on account of always being scanned. * CA/GA "assault lite" Scouts were out-assaulting Assaults. * CA Scout scans were too damn strong. We pitched what consensus we had to Rattati; he heard us out, then he shook things up in ways we hadn't even considered. Several of us (myself included) were concerned that his plan wouldn't work. Turned out, we were wrong. Rattati's EWAR model has proven to be better than any of us expected. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 374	Posted - 2014.10.12 07:03:00 - [180] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I got hatemail for driving over a cloak scout. I hope you reminded him that if he doesn't know how to play in the street then he should stay inside. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 374	Posted - 2014.10.12 07:06:00 - [181] - Quote And why did this thread suddenly go from being about expanding ewar access to frames outside of Scouts to being about balancing ewar amongst just Scouts? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5818	Posted - 2014.10.12 15:04:00 - [182] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: And why did this thread suddenly go from being about expanding ewar access to frames outside of Scouts to being about balancing ewar amongst just Scouts? This thread has always been about nerfing Scouts. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3603	Posted - 2014.10.12 15:18:00 - [183] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: "to see you and kill you in a fatsuit 100% of the time." ^ Your exact words, sport. What else could this possibly mean? Scout sees and kills fatsuit 100% of the time? Fatsuit sees and kills Scout 100% of the time? That 100% of the time part sure is exciting. But what exactly do you mean by 100% of the time? Quit trying to be clever, you absolutely suck at it.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 374	Posted - 2014.10.12 16:28:00 - [184] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: And why did this thread suddenly go from being about expanding ewar access to frames outside of Scouts to being about balancing ewar amongst just Scouts? OP isn't interested in better EWAR interplay among MedFrames or fixing "assault lite". His goal is to make all Scouts easier to scan, even low-HP dampened ones. This thread is and has always been about nerfing Scouts. All Scouts. Not just the problematic ones. * Nerf Profile Dampeners by 5% * Nerf Scout Scan Profile by 5 dB * Nerf AM Scout Precision by 10% Amadeuss EWAR might work if: * Replace GA Scout precision bonus * Reduce GA Logi precision bonus * Fully Fix Spin Scan * Disable Shared Passives Enabling more types of medium frames to be able to be able to detect Scouts would be a buff to them AND a buff to the Scouting profession. It would help balance out "assault lite" , and low HP dampened scouts (who if they dampened more would still be undetectable) would only be detected by low HP mediums, so thats a fair enough trade. Especially since by virtue of base profile the Scout frame regardless of race STILL keeps the detection advantage and if their intel shows that they're being detected they STILL have the base design to avoid the threat. ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... Your proposed fixes are as irrelevent as looking to the top of the leaderboard for evidence of frame use. For being a purported "voice of reason" your data suggestions are proving you very zealous. I'd like to see a blue tag in here for no other reason than to know Rattati sees your "input" for the useless bs it is. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1015	Posted - 2014.10.12 16:33:00 - [185] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: So I put together a few charts as I did before for swarms (4 missiles for all/increasing damage for lower tiers... yep that was me) and the amarr scout bonus issue (was a while ago). This time it is exploring how EWAR is fundamentally broken right now, and how we could bring it back to balance so that other suits can also be a part of this metagame. Here is a graph of what EWAR looks like now. The (p) stands for precision and the (d) stands for dampening. As you can see, it is quite easy to avoid all scan with minimal sacrifice, and there is no sacrifice great enough to try to keep up. 1) Change a few scan profile/precision numbers. The scout goes to 40/40, logi to 45/45, assault to 50/50, and heavy suits to 55/55. 2) Change precision dampners to mirror the values of precision enhancers. (i.e. cmplx-20%, enhanced-15%, basic-10%) 3) Change amarr precision bonus to 3% per level Doing these changes would alter the above chart from what it is to THIS. Much more balanced, dampening specialized suit can still become fully undetectable, and even an assault can pick up on scouts who don't dampen at all. 4) Change active scanners to mirror the new values, change gallente logi bonus to 3% / level) value/{gal logi value} Proto focused = 20 / {17} Proto = 26 / {22} Advanced = 30 / {25} Standard = 40 / {34} Scanners are now useful for all suits again, but can easily be dampened to not be seen (1 cmplx damp on a sentinel evades the standard scanner on a non-bonused suit) Some examples of the new system. An assault with 1 complex enhancer picks up undampened amarr/minnie scouts, 2 enhancerss picks up the caldari and gallente ones too. Basically assault scouts now have to deal with prepared normal assaults. A logi with 3 cmplx dampners picks up all amarr/minnie scouts with two dampners and cal/gal with 1 dampner. Useful for watching a squads back. A crazy caldari sentinel that fits all complex precision enhancers could pick up undamned scouts (and even amarr/minnie scouts who go with only 1 damp). I would say that is one heck of a sacrifice, but it could potentially pay off. EDIT: Changed proto active non-focused scanner to not pick up minmatar/amarr scouts when they fit to avoid scans. EDIT: Update OP Remember, this will allow scout to remain the very best at any single category of EWAR, but now they have to make trade-offs like every other suit in the game. EWAR should never be a go scout or go home proposition. we dont need to "fix" ewar.. we just need to nerf scouts and buff active scanners [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1150	Posted - 2014.10.12 16:36:00 - [186] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: The game does math weird. Protofits is hooked up to the SDE so it gives you the correct numbers. You are wrong. Also, the 23.63 is without a cloak. +Cloak should put scout under 3x precision Holy cow, do you even know how to read? Seriously.... He claimed scouts had a 23.85 profile WITH cloak and 1 damp, the he claimed that a logistics suit with 3 x complex precision enhancers could scan it, then he said it was "reasonable." I then showed him how he was wrong and the actual profile was 21. (I forget), but that what he thought was "reasonable" was what my OP would accomplish... he then changed the subject. Try to keep up. Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote:** And why did this thread suddenly go from being about expanding ewar access to frames outside of Scouts to being about balancing ewar amongst just Scouts? OP isn't interested in better EWAR interplay among MedFrames or fixing "assault lite". His goal is to make all Scouts easier to scan, even low-HP dampened ones. This thread is and has always been about nerfing Scouts. All Scouts. Not just the problematic ones. * Nerf Profile Dampeners by 5% * Nerf Scout Scan Profile by 5 dB * Nerf AM Scout Precision by 10% If precision can beat profile, it will always beat profile. We witnessed this prior to 1.8 with spin scanning Logis, and we saw it again prior to Charlie with CA Scout spam. If low-dB profile/precision interplay is shifted to favor precision, precision scans will become the norm and counter-recon units will lock Scouts out of play. This is the precise cause of MinScout underutilization prior to Charlie. This proposal is an attempt to replace the best EWAR system we've seen to date with one which repeats past failures. The underlined statement is so incredible mouthbreathing dumb I don't even know how to approach it.... care to expand on that or are you actually proud of that mindnumbing statement? I mean, there are like a few thousands of ways to fit each suit, and each suit has different bonuses, and there are variation of each module, and you somehow pull out this nugget of idiocy? You are so full of crap it isn't funny, all you have done all thread is obfuscate and misdirect in order to keep complaining about something you obviously don't even fully understand. Why would I say you don't fully understand it? As Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p highlighted, you thought that 3 complex precision enhancers picking up a scout with 1 cloak and 1 damp was "reasonable" when you were under the delusion of that being possible right now. When I pointed out your failure of simple arithmetic and how your fudged "reasonable" numbers you changed the subject. You couldn't care less about balance, and you have proven that over and over. This thread is about keeping the interplay between scouts more or less the same, with a small BUFF to amarr scout (which for some reason you can't comprehend), and allowing medium suits to detect poorly fir scouts with cloaks. I am sure your next response will be "PERMASCAN!!!" which has already been disproven. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5823	Posted - 2014.10.12 16:58:00 - [187] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: OP isn't interested in better EWAR interplay among MedFrames or fixing "assault lite". His goal is to make all Scouts easier to scan, even low-HP dampened ones. This thread is and has always been about nerfing Scouts. All Scouts. Not just the problematic ones. * Nerf Profile Dampeners by 5% * Nerf Scout Scan Profile by 5 dB * Nerf AM Scout Precision by 10% If precision can beat profile, it will always beat profile. We witnessed this prior to 1.8 with spin scanning Logis, and we saw it again prior to Charlie with CA Scout spam. If low-dB profile/precision interplay is shifted to favor precision, precision scans will become the norm and counter-recon units will lock Scouts out of play. This is the precise cause of MinScout underutilization prior to Charlie. This proposal is an attempt to replace the best EWAR system we've seen to date with one which repeats past failures. The underlined statement is so incredible mouthbreathing dumb I don't even know how to approach it.... care to expand on that or are you actually proud of that mindnumbing statement? I mean, there are like a few thousands of ways to fit each suit, and each suit has different bonuses, and there are variation of each module, and you somehow pull out this nugget of idiocy? You are so full of crap it isn't funny, all you have done all thread is obfuscate and misdirect in order to keep complaining about something you obviously don't even fully understand. Why would I say you don't fully understand it? As Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p highlighted, you thought that 3 complex precision enhancers picking up a scout with 1 cloak and 1 damp was "reasonable" when you were under the delusion of that being possible right now. When I pointed out your failure of simple arithmetic and how your fudged "reasonable" numbers you changed the subject. You couldn't care less about balance, and you have proven that over and over. This thread is about keeping the interplay between scouts more or less the same, with a small BUFF to amarr scout (which for some reason you can't comprehend), and allowing medium suits to detect poorly fir scouts with cloaks. I am sure your next response will be "PERMASCAN!!!" which has already been disproven. Throwing tantrums again, I see? Please report me again for pointing out that you conduct yourself like a spoiled toddler. EWAR tables are currently structured such that at max values, Profile beats Precision. Meaning a max-skilled Scout who commits his lows to damps can beat all scans. Competitive scans "keep Scouts honest" by encouraging them to run damps over plates. The current system could use some tuning here-and-there, but it is fundamentally healthy. Your system shifts interplay to favor Precision over Profile, meaning a max-skilled non-Gallente Scout who commits his lows to damps will still be scanned. If a Scout is going to get scanned whether or not he's running damps, he won't run damps. This is what I mean in the underlined portion above, if Precision can beat Profile it will always beat Profile. When Precision trumps Profile, the dynamic will ultimately shift from healthy hunter/hunted interplay for all Scouts to always being scanned unless you're in a GalScout. This is why your proposal is fundamentally flawed and unhealthy. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2546	Posted - 2014.10.12 17:07:00 - [188] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: The game does math weird. Protofits is hooked up to the SDE so it gives you the correct numbers. You are wrong. Also, the 23.63 is without a cloak. +Cloak should put scout under 3x precision Holy cow, do you even know how to read? Seriously.... He claimed scouts had a 23.85 profile WITH cloak and 1 damp, the he claimed that a logistics suit with 3 x complex precision enhancers could scan it, then he said it was "reasonable." I then showed him how he was wrong and the actual profile was 21. (I forget), but that what he thought was "reasonable" was what my OP would accomplish... he then changed the subject. Try to keep up. Adipem Nothi wrote:** Fun Facts, again: Logi + 1 Precision Enhancer scans undampened MN/AM Scouts Logi + 2 Precision Enhancers scans any undampened Scout I think that this is enough to prove that if there should be anyone who has a right to revert to ad homonyms, it's myself. The underlined statement is so incredible mouthbreathing dumb I don't even know how to approach it.... care to expand on that or are you actually proud of that mindnumbing statement? I mean, there are like a few thousands of ways to fit each suit, and each suit has different bonuses, and there are variation of each module, and you somehow pull out this nugget of idiocy? Are you retarded? Serious question because Im beginning to think that this isn't a troll. If you have ever played this game, you should understand that it is based entirely off of min/maxing. Meaning, in a competitive environment, if there is a way for a scout to be scanned, that scout will be scanned, and will remain scanned all the time. As Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p highlighted, you thought that 3 complex precision enhancers picking up a scout with 1 cloak and 1 damp was "reasonable" when you were under the delusion of that being possible right now. When I pointed out your failure of simple arithmetic and how your fudged "reasonable" numbers you changed the subject. Putting words into my mouth. Max skills-3 Precision should detect one damp, but not 1 damp+ any cloak. That is very fair, considering shared passives. My responses are underlined. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2549	Posted - 2014.10.12 17:10:00 - [189] - Quote Overall, this thread needs to die. I think that by reading it, I lost 15% of my total IQ. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1150	Posted - 2014.10.12 17:15:00 - [190] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: OP isn't interested in better EWAR interplay among MedFrames or fixing "assault lite". His goal is to make all Scouts easier to scan, even low-HP dampened ones. This thread is and has always been about nerfing Scouts. All Scouts. Not just the problematic ones. * Nerf Profile Dampeners by 5% * Nerf Scout Scan Profile by 5 dB * Nerf AM Scout Precision by 10% If precision can beat profile, it will always beat profile. We witnessed this prior to 1.8 with spin scanning Logis, and we saw it again prior to Charlie with CA Scout spam. If low-dB profile/precision interplay is shifted to favor precision, precision scans will become the norm and counter-recon units will lock Scouts out of play. This is the precise cause of MinScout underutilization prior to Charlie. This proposal is an attempt to replace the best EWAR system we've seen to date with one which repeats past failures. The underlined statement is so incredible mouthbreathing dumb I don't even know how to approach it.... care to expand on that or are you actually proud of that mindnumbing statement? I mean, there are like a few thousands of ways to fit each suit, and each suit has different bonuses, and there are variation of each module, and you somehow pull out this nugget of idiocy? You are so full of crap it isn't funny, all you have done all thread is obfuscate and misdirect in order to keep complaining about something you obviously don't even fully understand. Why would I say you don't fully understand it? As Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p highlighted, you thought that 3 complex precision enhancers picking up a scout with 1 cloak and 1 damp was "reasonable" when you were under the delusion of that being possible right now. When I pointed out your failure of simple arithmetic and how your fudged "reasonable" numbers you changed the subject. You couldn't care less about balance, and you have proven that over and over. This thread is about keeping the interplay between scouts more or less the same, with a small BUFF to amarr scout (which for some reason you can't comprehend), and allowing medium suits to detect poorly fir scouts with cloaks. I am sure your next response will be "PERMASCAN!!!" which has already been disproven. Throwing tantrums again, I see? Please report me again for pointing out that you conduct yourself like a spoiled toddler. EWAR tables are currently structured such that at max values, Profile beats Precision. Meaning a max-skilled Scout who commits his lows to damps can beat all scans. Competitive scans "keep Scouts honest" by encouraging them to run damps over plates. The current system could use some tuning here-and-there, but it is fundamentally healthy. Your system shifts interplay to favor precision over profile, meaning a max-skilled non-Gallente Scout who commits his lows to damps will still be scanned. If a Scout is going to getting scanned whether or not he's running damps, he won't run damps. This is what I mean in the underlined portion above, and this is why your proposal is fundamentally flawed and unhealthy. No, I sound like someone who is entirely fed up with dishonesty perpetrated by you.I should be used to it, I bet you were one of the people who kept arguing that the amarr bonuses were fine before in the previous thread. I know that gra2138wdk guy was. No, the way EWAR is set up right now is so OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of dampening it isn't funny. By default ONLY scouts have a profile that is 12.5% lower than precision, all other suits are either equal or precision is better than profile. By default, precision enhancers are 20% less powerful than profile dampners. On top of all of these insanely unbalanced mechanics, cloaks also add a 10% non-stacking-penalized reduction to profile. The funniest part about all of this though? In my proposal (which you agreed the results of are "reasonable") dampening specialized suits can always win... always. But no, you act like this huge entitled baby when the absolutel supremecy of scouts is challenged: When a extremely specialized scanner on a specialized suit just might be able to pick up some non-specialized scouts for 12.5% of the time if the scanner's extremely narrow view is pointed in the right direction. You claim "Permascan" When a specialized scout suit (amarr) would be able to see specialized hiding suits some of the time (cal/gallente) you claim"permascan". All you have done all thread is plug your ears and stomp your feet, fail at arithmetic, and then agree with the OP on accident. Fixing EWAR

Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1150	Posted - 2014.10.12 17:20:00 - [191] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: The game does math weird. Protofits is hooked up to the SDE so it gives you the correct numbers. You are wrong. Also, the 23.63 is without a cloak. +Cloak should put scout under 3x precision Holy cow, do you even know how to read? Seriously.... He claimed scouts had a 23.85 profile WITH cloak and 1 damp, the he claimed that a logistics suit with 3 x complex precision enhancers could scan it, then he said it was "reasonable." I then showed him how he was wrong and the actual profile was 21. (I forget), but that what he thought was "reasonable" was what my OP would accomplish... he then changed the subject. Try to keep up. Adipem Nothi wrote:** Fun Facts, again: Logi + 1 Precision Enhancer scans undampened MN/AM Scouts Logi + 2 Precision Enhancers scans any undampened Scout I think that this is enough to prove that if there should be anyone who has a right to revert to ad homonyms, it's myself. The underlined statement is so incredible mouthbreathing dumb I don't even know how to approach it.... care to expand on that or are you actually proud of that mindnumbing statement? I mean, there are like a few thousands of ways to fit each suit, and each suit has different bonuses, and there are variation of each module, and you somehow pull out this nugget of idiocy? Are you retarded? Serious question because Im beginning to think that this isn't a troll. If you have ever played this game, you should understand that it is based entirely off of min/maxing. Meaning, in a competitive environment, if there is a way for a scout to be scanned, that scout will be scanned, and will remain scanned all the time. As Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p highlighted, you thought that 3 complex precision enhancers picking up a scout with 1 cloak and 1 damp was "reasonable" when you were under the delusion of that being possible right now. When I pointed out your failure of simple arithmetic and how your fudged "reasonable" numbers you changed the subject. Putting words into my mouth, and is not what I said. Max skills-3 Precision should detect one damp, but not 1 damp+ any cloak. That is very fair, considering shared passives, and the fact that Logis can derive all of their HP from just armor plates anyways. My responses are underlined. Holy crap again, you are just horrible at reading. Is english your second language? First: You side with incorrect arithmetic Second: You respond to statements clearly made for another person, you also somehow wrongly contextualize those statements Third: Either you are 10 years old or English is your second language. Just stop, seriously, you add nothing, you are making yourself look incredibly dumb, and you can't even read the post correctly. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5823	Posted - 2014.10.12 17:21:00 - [192] - Quote Opinions, hyperbole and ad hominem in response to plain-and-simple facts. You're bad at this, Magnus. And you should feel bad. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 376	Posted - 2014.10.12 17:27:00 - [193] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: So I put together a few charts as I did before for swarms (4 missiles for all/increasing damage for lower tiers... yep that was me) and the amarr scout bonus issue (was a while ago). This time it is exploring how EWAR is fundamentally broken right now, and how we could bring it back to balance so that other suits can also be a part of this metagame. Here is a graph of what EWAR looks like now. The (p) stands for precision and the (d) stands for dampening. As you can see, it is quite easy to avoid all scan with minimal sacrifice, and there is no sacrifice great enough to try to keep up. 1) Change a few scan profile/precision numbers. The scout goes to 40/40, logi to 45/45, assault to 50/50, and heavy suits to 55/55. 2) Change precision dampners to mirror the values of precision enhancers. (i.e. cmplx-20%, enhanced-15%, basic-10%) 3) Change amarr precision bonus to 3% per level Doing these changes would alter the above chart from what it is to THIS. Much more balanced, dampening specialized suit can still become fully undetectable, and even an assault can pick up on scouts who don't dampen at all. 4) Change active scanners to mirror the new values, change gallente logi bonus to 3% / level) value/{gal logi value} Proto focused = 20 / {17} Proto = 26 / {22} Advanced = 30 / {25} Standard = 40 / {34} Scanners are now useful for all suits again, but can easily be dampened to not be seen (1 cmplx damp on a sentinel evades the standard scanner on a non-bonused suit) Some examples of the new system. An assault with 1 complex enhancer picks up undampened amarr/minnie scouts, 2 enhancerss picks up the caldari and gallente ones too. Basically assault scouts now have to deal with prepared normal assaults. A logi with 3 cmplx dampners picks up all amarr/minnie scouts with two dampners and cal/gal with 1 dampner. Useful for watching a squads back. A crazy caldari sentinel that fits all complex precision enhancers could pick up undamned scouts (and even amarr/minnie scouts who go with only 1 damp). I would say that is one heck of a sacrifice, but it could potentially pay off. EDIT: Changed proto active non-focused scanner to not pick up minmatar/amarr scouts when they fit to avoid scans. EDIT: Update OP Remember, this will allow scout to remain the very best at any single category of EWAR, but now they have to make trade-offs like every other suit in the game. EWAR should never be a go scout or go home proposition. we dont need to "fix" ewar.. we just need to nerf scouts and buff active scanners Dude. Pretty please with sugar on top. Don't help. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5823	Posted - 2014.10.12 17:27:00 - [194] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: When a extremely specialized scanner on a specialized suit just might be able to pick up some non-specialized scouts for 12.5% of the time if the scanner's extremely narrow view is pointed in the right direction. You claim "Permascan" Narrow view? Ever get around to testing spin scan? Or is that on your list of inconvenient facts to ignore? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1150	Posted - 2014.10.12 17:28:00 - [195] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Opinions, hyperbole and ad hominem in response to plain-and-simple facts. You're bad at this, Magnus. And you should feel bad. I am not sure if you realize it, but you just accused someone of an ad hominem while using an ad homenim. Do you even realize what an ad hominem is? It is attacking the character of the person INSTEAD of the argument. This fully encapsulates what you have done, over and over. Every post I provide examples, show how you fail at arithmetic, show how you actually think the proposal is fair, and throw in a bit of vitriol because of how dishonest you are. You respond with garbage like this. So I guess once again I can expect you to ignore the argument in my prior post, and instead use an ad hominem again (see thats the proper usage)? So I guess you won't address how you think a logi with 3 complex enhancers SHOULD be able to scan a scout with 1 cloak and 1 dampner on it? I guess you will not address how what you claim is an amarr scout nerf is actually a buff? I guess you won't address how incredibly lobsided the current system is towards dampening? Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5823	Posted - 2014.10.12 17:32:00 - [196] - Quote Apart for your "12.5% narrow view" claim, there is nothing of substance in your response to debate. Explain for me again how overhauling EWAR to marginalize all but GA Scouts is good for balance? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1150	Posted - 2014.10.12 17:34:00 - [197] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: When a extremely specialized scanner on a specialized suit just might be able to pick up some non-specialized scouts for 12.5% of the time if the scanner's extremely narrow view is pointed in the right direction. You claim "Permascan" Narrow view? Ever get around to testing spin scan? Or is that on your list of inconvenient facts to ignore? I actually have a low DPI mouse (as the forum go'ers seem to claim that works best) on order from amazon right now to test it and how well it works in general for Dust/PS3, as I can not reproduce your results with a controller. Feel free to post a video of it though. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1150	Posted - 2014.10.12 17:39:00 - [198] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Apart for your "12.5% narrow view" claim, there is nothing of substance in your response to debate. Explain for me again how overhauling EWAR to marginalize all but GA Scouts is good for balance? Your post shows either you do not read responses or do not care. I knew it, I knew you would try to shift the discussion yet again without addressing anything I brought up. You argue exactly like politicians do, you answer question you feel like and ignore the rest of them. So I take it you will not address the prior questions then? OTOH I address every single thing you brought up, well we are done with that, time for you to start answering some questions. me wrote: So I guess once again I can expect you to ignore the argument in my prior post, and instead use an ad hominem again (see thats the proper usage)? (check) So I guess you won't address how you think a logi with 3 complex enhancers SHOULD be able to scan a scout with 1 cloak and 1 dampner on it? (check) I guess you will not address how what you claim is an amarr scout nerf is actually a buff? (check) I guess you won't address how incredibly lobsided the current system is towards dampening? (check) me again wrote: No, the way EWAR is set up right now is so OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of dampening it isn't funny. By default ONLY scouts have a profile that is 12.5% lower than precision, all other suits are either equal or precision is better than profile. By default, precision enhancers are 20% less powerful than profile dampners. On top of all of these insanely unbalanced mechanics, cloaks also add a 10% non-stacking-penalized reduction to profile. The funniest part about all of this though? In my proposal (which you agreed the results of are "reasonable") dampening specialized suits can always win... always. All non-addressed by you, as I am sure you will do again. EDIT: calling it now, you will resort to some derivation of "permascan" even though that has been thoroughly debunked already... multiple times in-fact. You will use no numbers to back this claim up, you will also throw in an ad hominem for good mesure, possibly in an (unknowingly to you) ironic way. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5823	Posted - 2014.10.12 17:44:00 - [199] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: EWAR tables are currently structured such that at max values, Profile beats Precision. Meaning a max-skilled Scout who commits his lows to damps can beat all scans. Competitive scans "keep Scouts honest" by encouraging them to run damps over plates. The current system could use some tuning here-and-there, but it is fundamentally healthy. Your system shifts interplay to favor precision over profile, meaning a max-skilled non-Gallente Scout who commits his lows to damps will still be scanned. If a Scout is going to getting scanned whether or not he's running damps, he won't run damps. This is what I mean in the underlined portion above, and this is why your proposal is fundamentally flawed and unhealthy. 1. No, the way EWAR is set up right now is so OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of dampening it isn't funny. By default ONLY scouts have a profile that is 12.5% lower than precision, all other suits are either equal or precision is better than profile. 2. By default, precision enhancers are 20% less powerful than profile dampners. On top of all of these insanely unbalanced mechanics, cloaks also add a 10% non-stacking-penalized reduction to profile. 3. The funniest part about all of this though? In my proposal (which you agreed the results of are "reasonable") dampening specialized suits can always win... always. But no, you act like this huge entitled baby when the absolutel supremecy of scouts is challenged: 4. When a extremely specialized scanner on a specialized suit just might be able to pick up some non-specialized scouts for 12.5% of the time if the scanner's extremely narrow view is pointed in the right direction. You claim "Permascan" 5. When a specialized scout suit (amarr) would be able to see specialized hiding suits some of the time (cal/gallente) you claim"permascan". 6. All you have done all thread is plug your ears and stomp your feet, fail at arithmetic, and then agree with the OP on accident. 1. Opinion 2. Opinion 3. Ad Hominem 4. Hyperbole 5. Hyperbole 6. Ad Hominem Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1150	Posted - 2014.10.12 18:04:00 - [200] - Quote Did you really just claim that scouts having a lower profile than precision was an opinion? On top of that did you also actually claim that dampening mods aren't incredibly more powerful than precision was also opinion? Do you even know what the word opinion means? Did you also really just claim that precision enhancers being 20% less powerful than dampeners (5/25=20%, or 20/25=80%.. either way)was a lso opinion? Or were you claiming that 10% non-stacking-penalized dampening on cloaks was opinion? I honestly can't believe you wrote that... wait yes I can. Also: wikipedia wrote: An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a form of criticism directed at something about the person one is criticizing, rather than something (potentially, at least) independent of that person. When used inappropriately, it is a fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized. The frame in which you use it means rather than addressing your argument I only attack your character. I fully attack your argument and then call into question your character, that is not an ad hominem, it is a rebuttal and then at best an insult. If I were to say something like... well for instance: you wrote: Opinions, hyperbole and ad hominem in response to plain-and-simple facts. You're bad at this, Magnus. And you should feel bad. That would be an ad hominem because you do not address the arguments you purely dismiss it based upon character assassination. This is something you have done repeatedly in this thread. Fixing EWAR

Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1150	Posted - 2014.10.12 18:24:00 - [201] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Simple question, restated: What specific unit(s) could an AM Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers scan that a max-skill GA Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers could not scan? Caldari/Gallente scouts with 2 dampners and no cloaks When you and I first met prior to 1.8, you were very upset that AM Scout had no meaningful role or specialty. In your mind today, do the two lone instances above constitute a specialty? PS: You were right about the AM Scout. From 1.8 through 1.8 Bravo, there was no function is could perform substantially better than the GA Scout. The AM Scout finally found its specialty in Hotfix Charlie. Progress, yes? I must have missed this: Your posting history on this character only extends back to 6/2014, you are obviously an alt, and I did not have any interaction with this adipem in the threads I posted before about the lol amarr scout (I stop playing between fanfest and last month). Who did you post as before? Why are you using a different character to post now? Are you the same person as Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p becaue he is the only person from this thread who I had meaningful interaction with in those threads before (suprise suprise he thought that the amarr scout was just fine before....) Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5825	Posted - 2014.10.12 18:30:00 - [202] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: you wrote: Opinions, hyperbole and ad hominem in response to plain-and-simple facts. You're bad at this, Magnus. And you should feel bad. That would be an ad hominem because you do not address the arguments you purely dismiss it based upon character assassination. This is something you have done repeatedly in this thread. Correct, Line 1 is a fact and Line 2 is ad hominem (just to keep things spicy between us). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
hfderrtgvcd 760	Posted - 2014.10.12 18:32:00 - [203] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: [quote=Magnus Amadeuss][quote=Adipem Nothi] Simple question, restated: What specific unit(s) could an AM Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers scan that a max-skill GA Scout with 2 cmp precision enhancers could not scan? Are you the same person as Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p LMFAO You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1150	Posted - 2014.10.12 18:45:00 - [204] - Quote So here is a rundown of the facts (always assuming proto because you balance around proto): 1) Profile dampening is much more powerful than precision mods 2) There are more modules that effect profile than precision 3) Scouts are the only suits with lower profiles than precision 4) 3 x complex enhancers on an assault will not pick up a scout with just a cloak on 5) An assault can never pick up any scout with only one damp on 6) A logitics requires 2 complex precision enhancers to see a AM/min with just a cloak, 3 to see a gal/cal with only a cloak 7) A logistics can never passively see a scout with a cloak and just one damp 8) With only 1 cloak and 1 damp, gal/cal scouts are immune to all passive scans 9) Scanners are rarely if ever used Yet you say EWAR is in a good place, looks to me like one hell of a broken system. A few more FACTS 10) OP proposes no possible permascan scenario 11) OP allows scouts to still hide from all passive scans 12) OP allows gal suit to hide from gal logi 13) OP slightly buffs the amarr scout Yet you say EWAR is in a good place, looks to me like one hell of a broken system. Now address these PROVEN facts, or GTFO. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1150	Posted - 2014.10.12 19:00:00 - [205] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: You say the current system is broken. You say that your system is better. I say these are opinions stated as fact. Bottom Line: Any system wherein precision trumps profile is a fundamentally flawed system. No Mr. Politician, you are not allowed to skip out on this, address the facts or GTFO. Also your last line is a statement of pure opinion, backed up by no numbers, statistics, examples, or reasoning. It is a wholly empty and useless statement without meaning or purpose. Magnus Amadeuss wrote: So here is a rundown of the facts (always assuming proto because you balance around proto): 1) Profile dampening is much more powerful than precision mods 2) There are more modules that effect profile than precision 3) Scouts are the only suits with lower profiles than precision 4) 3 x complex enhancers on an assault will not pick up a cal/gal scout with just a cloak on 5) An assault can never pick up any scout with only one damp on 6) A logitics requires 2 complex precision enhancers to see a AM/min with just a cloak, 3 to see a gal/cal with only a cloak 7) A logistics can never passively see a scout with a cloak and just one damp 8) With only 1 cloak and 1 damp, gal/cal scouts are immune to all passive scans 9) Scanners are rarely if ever used Yet you say EWAR is in a good place, looks to me like one hell of a broken system. A few more FACTS 10) OP proposes no possible permascan scenario 11) OP allows scouts to still hide from all passive scans 12) OP allows gal suit to hide from gal logi 13) OP slightly buffs the amarr scout Now address these PROVEN facts, or GTFO. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5825	Posted - 2014.10.12 19:07:00 - [206] - Quote Cherry picking facts does not fix a fundamentally flawed premise. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1150	Posted - 2014.10.12 19:13:00 - [207] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cherry picking facts does not fix a fundamentally flawed premise. No you don't get to avoid the issue this time, you don't get to sidestep the discussion. Seriously, address the facts or GTFO. I have answered every single one of your stipulations and questions, now it is your turn. Refusing to address these facts will result in your agreement with every single one of them. Magnus Amadeuss wrote: So here is a rundown of the facts (always assuming proto because you balance around proto): 1) Profile dampening is much more powerful than precision mods 2) There are more modules that effect profile than precision 3) Scouts are the only suits with lower profiles than precision 4) 3 x complex enhancers on an assault will not pick up a cal/gal scout with just a cloak on 5) An assault can never pick up any scout with only one damp on 6) A logitics requires 2 complex precision enhancers to see a AM/min with just a cloak, 3 to see a gal/cal with only a cloak 7) A logistics can never passively see a scout with a cloak and just one damp 8) With only 1 cloak and 1 damp, gal/cal scouts are immune to all passive scans 9) Scanners are rarely if ever used Yet you say EWAR is in a good place, looks to me like one hell of a broken system. A few more FACTS 10) OP proposes no possible permascan scenario 11) OP allows scouts to still hide from all passive scans 12) OP allows gal suit to hide from gal logi 13) OP slightly buffs the amarr scout Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5825	Posted - 2014.10.12 19:17:00 - [208] - Quote I refuse to respond on the grounds that it'll eventually make you flame. For EWAR to work, all scouts need to be able to beat all scans. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 110	Posted - 2014.10.12 19:23:00 - [209] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: All scouts are EWAR specialized suits, and thus should be the masters of eWAR in almost every way. Sentinels are CQC combat specialized suits, and thus should be the masters of CQC combat in almost every way. Assaults are mid range skirmishing specialized suits, with the versatility to go from mid range to long range to short range at a moments notice, and the excel at this in almost every way. Logis are support specialized suits and thus should be the masters of support in almost every way. Commandos are suppression specialists and thus should be the masters of suppression in almost every way This is why they should be side arm only their ewar alone makes them viable. I have not tried it but I would bet it wouldn't even be that hard to pull off a melee scout despite low starting melee dmg. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
The Master Race Immortal Guides 110	Posted - 2014.10.12 19:23:00 - [210] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: All scouts are EWAR specialized suits, and thus should be the masters of eWAR in almost every way. Sentinels are CQC combat specialized suits, and thus should be the masters of CQC combat in almost every way. Assaults are mid range skirmishing specialized suits, with the versatility to go from mid range to long range to short range at a moments notice, and the excel at this in almost every way. Logis are support specialized suits and thus should be the masters of support in almost every way. Commandos are suppression specialists and thus should be the masters of suppression in almost every way This is why they should be side arm only their ewar alone makes them viable. I have not tried it but I would bet it wouldn't even be that hard to pull off a melee scout despite low starting melee dmg. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.

poison Diego Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 455	Posted - 2014.10.12 19:27:00 - [211] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: All scouts are EWAR specialized suits, and thus should be the masters of eWAR in almost every way. Sentinels are CQC combat specialized suits, and thus should be the masters of CQC combat in almost every way. Assaults are mid range skirmishing specialized suits, with the versatility to go from mid range to long range to short range at a moments notice, and the excel at this in almost every way. Logis are support specialized suits and thus should be the masters of support in almost every way. Commandos are suppression specialists and thus should be the masters of suppression in almost every way This is why they should be side arm only their ewar alone makes them viable. I have not tried it but I would bet it wouldn't even be that hard to pull off a melee scout despite low starting melee dmg. Would you make the shotgun a sidearm then? I give up R.I.P ADS getting more proficiency in the shotgun so I can kill every single f*ck I see using swarmlauncher
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1150	Posted - 2014.10.12 19:35:00 - [212] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Refusing to address these facts will result in your agreement with every single one of them. Adipem Nothi wrote: I refuse to respond Ok glad we got that clear. Your words, not mine. Adipem Nothi wrote: that it'll eventually make you flame. pretty sure trolling is against forum rules Adipem Nothi wrote: For EWAR to work, all scouts need to be able to beat all scans.* *for a sacrifice Also, why even have the gallogi then? Why even have the gal/cal dampening bonus since in your opinion beating all scans should be a class speciality, not a suit specialty... doesn't this just make dampening bonuses a double bonus and thus overkill (and unbalancing by default)? Anyway, really excited that we agree on all of those facts above. Really encapsulates how the EWAR system is completely broken right now. Fixing EWAR
Poison Howl D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 159	Posted - 2014.10.12 19:45:00 - [213] - Quote This thread is the largest pissing contest I have ever seen on the forums. You people need to learn "compromise". For every point of happiness we gain in this game, our madness increases exponentially.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 378	Posted - 2014.10.12 19:54:00 - [214] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: For EWAR to work for one class, in favor of one class and to perpetuate gross overall game imbalance all scouts need to be able to beat all scans as well as retain all the other advantages of the class. FTFY. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5826	Posted - 2014.10.12 20:04:00 - [215] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: For EWAR to work for one class, in favor of one class and to perpetuate gross overall game imbalance all scouts need to be able to beat all scans as well as retain all the other advantages of the class. FTFY. Because scouts are running rampant, wholly unchecked, and pushing KDRs substantially higher than every other class. It is a proven fact that all slayers now run scout suits all the time. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4770	Posted - 2014.10.12 20:04:00 - [216] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: For EWAR to work for one class, in favor of one class and to perpetuate gross overall game imbalance all scouts need to be able to beat all scans as well as retain all the other advantages of the class. FTFY. A scanned scout is a dead scout. Why do you think Amarr and Minmatar were completely irrelevant between Alpha and Charlie? Because Cal scouts could scan and broadcast their locations to every heavy in their squad. If scouts were the most broken OP suit in the game, they would be a majority of fielded mercs in PC, but they are not. They are not even a majority. When you come back with some real data to support your claim, let us know. You can always tell a Millford Minja
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1349	Posted - 2014.10.12 20:52:00 - [217] - Quote The fundamental flaw in Dust ewar is the fact that detection is ON/OFF. That makes it a dull one. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 110	Posted - 2014.10.12 20:56:00 - [218] - Quote In a world of the blind the one eyed man is king lol.. I think you are comparing sents with healers to a single scout pal. I saw someone post that pc makes up 1% of the players in dust is this proper? A gal logi can scan 18 db easily beaten by any scout even then the value of a chance to spot scout every once every 40 seconds is debatable. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
The Master Race Immortal Guides 110	Posted - 2014.10.12 20:56:00 - [219] - Quote In a world of the blind the one eyed man is king lol.. I think you are comparing sents with healers to a single scout pal. I saw someone post that pc makes up 1% of the players in dust is this proper? A gal logi can scan 18 db easily beaten by any scout even then the value of taking the focused scanner for a chance to spot scout every once every 40 seconds is debatable. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
Jebus McKing lol Proto 761	Posted - 2014.10.12 21:12:00 - [220] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: why even have the gallogi then? To beat Assaults with 2x complex damps. Before the Gal Logi scanning bonus many people were using 2x damps on assaults to avoid being scanned by active scanners. Guess what happened when CCP decided to make a scanning logi whose scans were so good that an Assault would need 5x damps to beat it? - Exactly. Dampened mediums almost completely disappeared. And that is what is going to happen when scanning becomes even easier than it is right now. People will most likely stack more HP instead of damps because HP is useful in all situations and has a success rate of 100%. (As opposed to some RNG dampening fail rate or some other BS like that.) If you cannot rely on your dampening to work, then why even use it instead of more HP? lol Proto // @JebusMcKing

Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 110	Posted - 2014.10.12 21:22:00 - [221] - Quote Don't get me wrong m8 this is just beating around the bush as ewar is what makes a scout and can not be changed. Therefore the combat ability of a scout must be balanced which can not be done as long as they remain in the same weapon pool of the rest of the classes. The reason I suggest side arm only. Beats all scans: 1.One damp + suit bonus 2.Two damps For all other scans apart from the focused scanner can be done with suit bonus + cloak bonus New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
The Master Race Immortal Guides 110	Posted - 2014.10.12 21:22:00 - [222] - Quote Don't get me wrong m8 this is just beating around the bush as ewar is what makes a scout and can not be changed. Therefore the combat ability of a scout must be balanced which can not be done as long as they remain in the same weapon pool of the rest of the classes. The reason I suggest side arm only. Beats all scans: 1.One damp + suit bonus 2.Two damps For all other scans apart from the focused scanner can be done with suit bonus + cloak bonus New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1350	Posted - 2014.10.12 21:27:00 - [223] - Quote And before people ask me "what's an alternative to the ON/OFF detection?" I give an example here in this older thread. Even though written for active scanners, same mechanic would make passive scanning as well better. The concept Detection strength on target building up in time. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
benandjerrys NECROM0NGERS 23	Posted - 2014.10.12 21:30:00 - [224] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: This still gives scout a complete monopoly on EWAR. I would, pwrsonally, much rather ewar be split three fold between each suit tier. Medium gets best scans, scout best dampening, and heavy best scan radii. Smartest thing said all day. Assaults are now viable game is almost balanced.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 380	Posted - 2014.10.12 23:59:00 - [225] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: For EWAR to work for one class, in favor of one class and to perpetuate gross overall game imbalance all scouts need to be able to beat all scans as well as retain all the other advantages of the class. FTFY. Because scouts are running rampant, wholly unchecked, and pushing KDRs substantially higher than every other class. It is a proven fact that all slayers now run scout suits all the time. If performance stats suggest otherwise, it's because performance stats are lies. Again with the distraction kd leaderboard garbage? Feel free to post ANY actual performance statistics you're privy to. I didn't think that I would have to actually explain why the kdr leaderboards aren't relevent since anyone with even a basic actual understanding of statistical analysis would see that 1. The KDR leaderboard only goes for a couple thousand positions ( for a game with, by most estimates a population of roughly 12 thousand at any given point) which automatically excludes record of thousands of players. disclaimer: 12k is, yes, an estimate, based from threads on the topic and personal observation of the Tranquility player counter which, I know, is mostly EVE players. 2. In a game, such as Call of Duty or maybe HALO, where the overwhelming objective is killing the opponent solely using a kdr datapool could give a reasonable assessment of player activity. In a game like DUST514 however, since the perogative is not exclusively the killing of the opponent but rather the winning of the game by any of a number of means (elimination of clones being just one) focusing on kdrs solely ignores the other methods and the means of achieving them. 3. Your continuous insistence of focus on not just the kdr leaderboard but the top of it limits not just the scope of a sad datapool but also its breadth . You are pointing at statistical OUTLIERS and claiming that an average of them is an average of the entire group. Statistical outliers and any anomoly among them is proof of little nothing in general for the actual average and proof of ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING here. A couple of times you have claimed or insinuated some knowledge or possession of "performance statistics". If you actually have either I invite, encourage and at this point demand you provide them here or in the words of Magnus^, " STFU and GTFO". So tired of theorycraft idiots trying to pony stupidity around as evidence. You affirm with every. Single. Self-interested Post. Exactly why crowdsourcing game improvement ideas from the playerbase can be such a **** idea. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 380	Posted - 2014.10.13 00:02:00 - [226] - Quote benandjerrys wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: This still gives scout a complete monopoly on EWAR. I would, pwrsonally, much rather ewar be split three fold between each suit tier. Medium gets best scans, scout best dampening, and heavy best scan radii. Smartest thing said all day. Assaults are now viable game is almost balanced. So, Mediums see everyone except who they really need to, Scouts stay as overadvantaged as ever and Heavies are just as bling but for farther? Lookout, the smartbus just pulled in! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2553	Posted - 2014.10.13 00:10:00 - [227] - Quote Magnus come on man...I don't think Rattati is gonna respond to this one, but Ill still give you Gav's Troll of the Year seal, but you're starting to make me think that this isn't a troll anymore and that you're actually serious "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5831	Posted - 2014.10.13 00:11:00 - [228] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: For EWAR to work for one class, in favor of one class and to perpetuate gross overall game imbalance all scouts need to be able to beat all scans as well as retain all the other advantages of the class. FTFY. Because scouts are running rampant, wholly unchecked, and pushing KDRs substantially higher than every other class. It is a proven fact that all slayers now run scout suits all the time. If performance stats suggest otherwise, it's because performance stats are lies. Again with the distraction kd leaderboard garbage? Feel free to post ANY actual performance statistics you're privy to. I didn't think that I would have to actually explain why the kdr leaderboards aren't relevent since anyone with even a basic actual understanding of statistical analysis would see that 1. The KDR leaderboard only goes for a couple thousand positions ( for a game with, by most estimates a population of roughly 12 thousand at any given point) which automatically excludes record of thousands of players. disclaimer: 12k is, yes, an estimate, based from threads on the topic and personal observation of the Tranquility player counter which, I know, is mostly EVE players. 2. In a game, such as Call of Duty or maybe HALO, where the overwhelming objective is killing the opponent solely using a kdr datapool could give a reasonable assessment of player activity. In a game like DUST514 however, since the perogative is not exclusively the killing of the opponent but rather the winning of the game by any of a number of means (elimination of clones being just one) focusing on kdrs solely ignores the other methods and the means of achieving them. 3. Your continuous insistence of focus on not just the kdr leaderboard but the top of it limits not just the scope of a sad datapool but also its breadth . You are pointing at statistical OUTLIERS and claiming that an average of them is an average of the entire group. Statistical outliers and any anomoly among them is proof of little nothing in general for the actual average and proof of ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING here. A couple of times you have claimed or insinuated some knowledge or possession of "performance statistics". If you actually have either I invite, encourage and at this point demand you provide them here or in the words of Magnus^, " STFU and GTFO". So tired of theorycraft idiots trying to pony stupidity around as evidence. You affirm with every. Single. Self-interested Post. Exactly why crowdsourcing game improvement ideas from the playerbase can be such a **** idea. Thank you for that digest. In reality, if scout suits were super duper OP, we'd see nothing on the field but scout suits. Believe whatever you want broseph. Not my job to teach you to think straight. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 380	Posted - 2014.10.13 00:22:00 - [229] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: For EWAR to work for one class, in favor of one class and to perpetuate gross overall game imbalance all scouts need to be able to beat all scans as well as retain all the other advantages of the class. FTFY. A scanned scout is a dead scout. Why do you think Amarr and Minmatar were completely irrelevant between Alpha and Charlie? Because Cal scouts could scan and broadcast their locations to every heavy in their squad. If scouts were the most broken OP suit in the game, they would be a majority of fielded mercs in PC, but they are not. When you come back with some real data to support your claim, let us know. A scanned scout is the best equipped frame in the game to survive having been scanned, provided it is scouting and not assaulting or logi'ing. Because the other members of the class were favored for assaulting and now that assaults have been bonused/slotted differently some of the scout suit tourists have gone to greener pastures. PC is rampant with scouts. If you don't see them you're either not pc active, oblivious to what situational awareness and combat causality is, or blind/deaf/dumb. To support the imbalance of Scout base stats relative to all other frames I refer you to the base statbsheets yo can go read for yourself in the market under "Dropsuits". If that's no good then we know what answer to the pc question above is. hint: it's the last one. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 382	Posted - 2014.10.13 01:29:00 - [230] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: For EWAR to work for one class, in favor of one class and to perpetuate gross overall game imbalance all scouts need to be able to beat all scans as well as retain all the other advantages of the class. FTFY. Because scouts are running rampant, wholly unchecked, and pushing KDRs substantially higher than every other class. It is a proven fact that all slayers now run scout suits all the time. If performance stats suggest otherwise, it's because performance stats are lies. Again with the distraction kd leaderboard garbage? Feel free to post ANY actual performance statistics you're privy to. I didn't think that I would have to actually explain why the kdr leaderboards aren't relevent since anyone with even a basic actual understanding of statistical analysis would see that 1. The KDR leaderboard only goes for a couple thousand positions ( for a game with, by most estimates a population of roughly 12 thousand at any given point) which automatically excludes record of thousands of players. disclaimer: 12k is, yes, an estimate, based from threads on the topic and personal observation of the Tranquility player counter which, I know, is mostly EVE players. 2. In a game, such as Call of Duty or maybe HALO, where the overwhelming objective is killing the opponent solely using a kdr datapool could give a reasonable assessment of player activity. In a game like DUST514 however, since the perogative is not exclusively the killing of the opponent but rather the winning of the game by any of a number of means (elimination of clones being just one) focusing on kdrs solely ignores the other methods and the means of achieving them. 3. Your continuous insistence of focus on not just the kdr leaderboard but the top of it limits not just the scope of a sad datapool but also its breadth . You are pointing at statistical OUTLIERS and claiming that an average of them is an average of the entire group. Statistical outliers and any anomoly among them is proof of little nothing in general for the actual average and proof of ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING here. A couple of times you have claimed or insinuated some knowledge or possession of "performance statistics". If you actually have either I invite, encourage and at this point demand you provide them here or in the words of Magnus^, " STFU and GTFO". So tired of theorycraft idiots trying to pony stupidity around as evidence. You affirm with every. Single. Self-interested Post. Exactly why crowdsourcing game improvement ideas from the playerbase can be such a ** idea. Thank you for that digest. In reality, if scout suits were super duper OP, we'd see nothing on the field but scout suits. That's not the case, but believe whatever you want broseph. Not my job to teach you to think straight. You like that? Good. Digest that *, yeah, brohamb. Digest it down reeeal good* since the same way it's not your job to teach me how to think it's not mine to teach you either and my having to of had to still pisses me off. BTW, this isn't and wasn't the/a "F ScoutsOPqqthread" from what I read of the OP, it was a "This could be equalized better like this..." proposal thread and you decided to turn it into a QQScoutNurf! horrorthread. Your silence, as Magnus has pointed out repeatedly, is deafening regarding questions of anything that isn't your agreed perspective. Good thing you have reputation, eh? 'Cause you sure as hell don't seem to have **** else. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1916	Posted - 2014.10.13 02:15:00 - [231] - Quote Okay, here's the thing. Precision scans for a squad, and dampening is only for the suit fitting it. Therefore, dampening should win the race between precision/profile. But they should be neck and neck the entire way. The best passive scans should only be beat by the best dampened scout. If the scanner is sacrificing to pick you up, you should sacrifice in order to avoid detection. I would have Caldari scout receive the precision bonus and Amarr the range bonus. I would have scout precision match its current profile. I would then run metrics and see if this needs more tweaking. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1153	Posted - 2014.10.13 02:17:00 - [232] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: You like that? Good. Digest that ***, yeah, brohamb. Digest it down reeeal good* since the same way it's not your job to teach me how to think it's not mine to teach you either and my having to of had to still pisses me off. BTW, this isn't and wasn't the/a "F ScoutsOPqqthread" from what I read of the OP, it was a "This could be equalized better like this..." proposal thread and you decided to turn it into a QQScoutNurf! horrorthread. Your silence, as Magnus has pointed out repeatedly, is deafening regarding questions of anything that isn't your agreed perspective. Good thing you have reputation, eh? 'Cause you sure as hell don't seem to have ** else. Here is the worst part, the trolls know that the easiest way to get CCP to not review a thread here is to fill it full of absolute crap, I guess I had forgotten that part. Just like adiphem/shottygobang/whatever other forum alts he/she has, they fill it with just worthless conversation. I will probably just delete the OP and remake the thread, cleaned up some as well. I have no idea why in the world this would be a bad suggestion though. Scouts are still without doubt the very best ewar suits, it is just they can be challenged when they **-fit. Scouts will still be able to avoid all passive scans. Its just that medium suits will be able to pick up slayer scouts now... boo hoo. adiphem only wants 1 damp and 1 cloak to hide you for any medium suit in the game, and he calls that interplay (hint it isn't). Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p is just a troll who has been trolling hard for like a year. He actually argued that the original amarr scout was balanced (lol). I have blocked them both now, and wil proceed to remake the OP and delete this one. Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5837	Posted - 2014.10.13 02:22:00 - [233] - Quote Idea! Believe it or not, I very much agree with the notion that more mercs should be able to scan undampened Scouts. The problem is, we can't make it easier to scan undampened scouts at the high-end of the dB spectrum without also mucking up interplay at the low-end of the dB spectrum. So how can we address the high-end of the spectrum (where "assault lite" lives) without kicking properly dampened Scouts in the pants? I'm wondering how a buff to the 28 dB scanners might play out. The Focused Active Scanner is expensive and terrible, which is why it rarely used. The 28 dB scanners on the other hand are pretty dang sweet (especially the 200 meter / 90 degree one). If those could scan undampened Scouts, do you guys think people would use them? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1153	Posted - 2014.10.13 02:23:00 - [234] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Okay, here's the thing. Precision scans for a squad, and dampening is only for the suit fitting it. Therefore, dampening should win the race between precision/profile. But they should be neck and neck the entire way. The best passive scans should only be beat by the best dampened scout. If the scanner is sacrificing to pick you up, you should sacrifice in order to avoid detection. I would have Caldari scout receive the precision bonus and Amarr the range bonus. I would have scout precision match its current profile. I would then run metrics and see if this needs more tweaking. This is addressed in the OP. Basically: precision enhancers are only 80% as power as profile dampeners Cloaks give a dampening bonus which always puts it ahead of precision, and it is stacking free Scout profile is 12.5% lower than scout precision, 22.3% lower than logi precision, and 30% lower than assault precision putting it way out of any type of interplay range. Add up all of this stuff and precision never had a chance, and in that 1/3rd of the entire EWAR tree was just nerfed into the ground. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1153	Posted - 2014.10.13 02:25:00 - [235] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Idea! Believe it or not, I very much agree with the notion that more mercs should be able to scan undampened Scouts. The problem is, we can't make it easier to scan undampened scouts at the high-end of the dB spectrum without also mucking up interplay at the low-end of the dB spectrum. So how can we address the high-end of the spectrum (where "assault lite" lives) without kicking properly dampened Scouts in the pants? I'm wondering how a buff to the 28 dB scanners might play out. The Focused Active Scanner is expensive and terrible, which is why it rarely used. The 28 dB scanners on the other hand are pretty dang sweet (especially the 200 meter / 90 degree one). If those could scan undampened Scouts, do you guys think people would use them? Ok, so if you want to actually work with me, I would be more than willing to discuss scanners as I already admitted those stats are rough. Like for instance, the flux is a B.S. scanner that should have never been released.. it is so incredibly OP that it is no wonder scanners were nerfed into the ground. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1153	Posted - 2014.10.13 02:36:00 - [236] - Quote The way I view it, scanners should all be tweaks of the plain jane one, at proto that is the Creodon active scanner. 100m 90 degrees 15/5 cooldown visibilty 28db precision (undamped scout precision) So for the other varients, an increase in any stat results in a penalty in the others. For example: Lets say the flux is the long range scanner so it would look like 200m 45 degrees 30/8 28 dB OR the focused 100m 30 degree 40/5 20 dB the quantum 100m 60 degrees 40/20 30 dB The proximity 40 m 360 degrees 20/5 32 dB Now the dB measurements are just for show right now, because we still need to work on the passive+cloak meta and get that RIGTH before we can really tweak scanners. Also these stats have very little thought into them, so don't take them as final, but they all have distinct roles, rather than how it is now with the flux > all scanner Fixing EWAR
Espartoi Orkz Clan 336	Posted - 2014.10.13 02:47:00 - [237] - Quote Before continue the argument I will like to suggest for a CPM or DEV response, so you will know this matter will be inconsideration for the next hotfix if not people are just wasting keyboard/touch lifetime. SHOOT SMASH STOMP CHOP FLAK THE WORLD
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5840	Posted - 2014.10.13 03:20:00 - [238] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Ok, so if you want to actually work with me, I would be more than willing to discuss scanners as I already admitted those stats are rough. I agree that undampened Scouts should be easier to scan, but I believe that adjusting EWAR tables to accomplish this goal would create more problems than it'd solve. I like the idea of improving upon active scanners to satisfy the goal; fewer moving parts means less risk of unintended consequences. Plus, Active Scanners are presumably underutilized, so we'll potentially solve two problems at once. Some maths: The undampened GA/CA Scout Profile is 27 dB uncloaked, 25 dB advance cloaked and 24 dB proto cloaked. If the 28 dB scanner were buffed to 24 dB, it would scan dampened MN/AM Scouts. It is not our goal to scan dampened Scouts; on these grounds I'd posit that 24 dB is too much. If it were buffed to 25 dB, it would not scan dampened scouts unless wielded by the counter-recon specialist (i.e. GA Logi). A 25 dB proto scanner would scan at 19 dB when wielded by a GA Logi. MN/AM Scouts would need two dampeners to beat this specialist's scans; CA/GA Scouts would need two dampeners or one dampener and a proto cloak. * Exception: An undampened GA/CA Scout running a proto cloak would duck a 25 dB scan. In my estimation and experience, however, "assault lite" do not run proto cloaks as they cannot afford the fitting costs without making substantial sacrifice to their weaponry and/or HP. 28 dB scanners being buffed to 25 dB seems reasonable to me. I believe it'd satisfy the demand of non-Scouts to be able to scan undampened Scouts, and I believe it'd encourage more Scouts to run damps instead of Plates. It'd also likely improve Active Scanner utilization rates, and would buff the GA Logi's counter-recon capabilities. What do you think? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5840	Posted - 2014.10.13 03:31:00 - [239] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: [snip] Active Scanner Improvements [/snip] I'd propose we hold off on overhauling Active Scanners until they make it onto a Hotfix agenda. For Echo, I'd pitch just one change: 28 dB Active Scanners --> 25 dB. Easiest on the Devs this way, and it'd solve one of the biggest issues at the heart of this thread. Edit: I'd probably append that one change with a 5 dB reduction to Assault Scan Profile so they can still beat Proto Scans with two complex damps; we don't want to nerf them by accident. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
mollerz 5546	Posted - 2014.10.13 04:34:00 - [240] - Quote Espartoi wrote: Before continue the argument I will like to suggest for a CPM or DEV response, so you will know this matter will be inconsideration for the next hotfix if not people are just wasting keyboard/touch lifetime. Fight it out here.. and then take a refined response here. trust me. It works out better for everyone. I'm seriously fukn serious

Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1153	Posted - 2014.10.13 08:16:00 - [241] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: [snip] Active Scanner Improvements [/snip] I'd propose we hold off on overhauling Active Scanners until they make it onto a Hotfix agenda. For Echo, I'd pitch just one change: 28 dB Active Scanners --> 25 dB. Easiest on the Devs this way, and it'd solve one of the biggest issues at the heart of this thread. Edit: I'd probably append that one change with a 5 dB reduction to Assault Scan Profile so they can still beat Proto Scans with two complex damps; we don't want to nerf them by accident. Actually I just finished a really nifty spreadsheet for passives, it allows you to try nearly all permutations (altering number of modules, the base stats, the bonuses, and the module stats) with super quick results of who you can scan and who you can hide from. As soon as I make sure the figures are indeed spot on and figure out how to discretely share it, I will post a link. It should make all of this arguing and extra math a thing of the past, and actually eliminate most of the disputes. Fixing EWAR
Jebus McKing lol Proto 763	Posted - 2014.10.13 12:08:00 - [242] - Quote Instead of buffing the active scanners which would have unforseen consequences for the medium suit ewar I again propose to make scout bonuses modify ewar module efficiency. Et voila! Undampened scouts can be seen by a proto active scanner even when they use a proto cloak. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5843	Posted - 2014.10.13 12:21:00 - [243] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Instead of buffing the active scanners which would have unforseen consequences for the medium suit ewar I again propose to make scout bonuses modify ewar module efficiency. Et voila! Undampened scouts can be seen by a proto active scanner even when they use a proto cloak. Drop Logi/Assault Profile by 5 dB. No unforeseen consequences. Buff actually. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5843	Posted - 2014.10.13 12:35:00 - [244] - Quote [quote=Magnus Amadeuss Actually I just finished a really nifty spreadsheet for passives.[/quote] We can't satisfy demand to scan at high end of the spectrum (where assault lite lives) without interfering with interplay at the low end of the spectrum. The baseline must remain where it is. Hence the compromise with Active Scanners. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Jebus McKing lol Proto 763	Posted - 2014.10.13 13:01:00 - [245] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: Instead of buffing the active scanners which would have unforseen consequences for the medium suit ewar I again propose to make scout bonuses modify ewar module efficiency. Et voila! Undampened scouts can be seen by a proto active scanner even when they use a proto cloak. We're only tweaking one variable here. Easy to check for unintended consequences. Drop Logi/Assault Profile by 5 dB. No unforeseen consequences. 2 damps (24 dB) beats proto scans just like before (no change w/GA Logi either). Efficacy bonuses made more sense prior to EWAR normalization. I'm not altogether opposed to the concept, but I believe there are cleaner ways to solve the "assault lite" problem (if it is in fact a problem). Make the profile 44db so mediums with 2x damps can hide from scouts (cal/min) with 2x precision. Damps should always beat precision in my opinion. Precision gives you the ability to see targets through walls which is a huge advantage. Damps only keep you from being seen when not in line of sight. Stats would then be: Assault 44/50 profile/precision Logi 44/44 profile/precision STD Active scanner 44db lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5843	Posted - 2014.10.13 13:10:00 - [246] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: Instead of buffing the active scanners which would have unforseen consequences for the medium suit ewar I again propose to make scout bonuses modify ewar module efficiency. Et voila! Undampened scouts can be seen by a proto active scanner even when they use a proto cloak. We're only tweaking one variable here. Easy to check for unintended consequences. Drop Logi/Assault Profile by 5 dB. No unforeseen consequences. 2 damps (24 dB) beats proto scans just like before (no change w/GA Logi either). Efficacy bonuses made more sense prior to EWAR normalization. I'm not altogether opposed to the concept, but I believe there are cleaner ways to solve the "assault lite" problem (if it is in fact a problem). Make the profile 44db so mediums with 2x damps can hide from scouts (cal/min) with 2x precision. Stats would then be: Assault 44/50 profile/precision Logi 44/44 profile/precision STD Active scanner 44db 100% agreed on all points. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
xAckie Ghost. Mob 454	Posted - 2014.10.13 13:31:00 - [247] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: Instead of buffing the active scanners which would have unforseen consequences for the medium suit ewar I again propose to make scout bonuses modify ewar module efficiency. Et voila! Undampened scouts can be seen by a proto active scanner even when they use a proto cloak. We're only tweaking one variable here. Easy to check for unintended consequences. Drop Logi/Assault Profile by 5 dB. No unforeseen consequences. 2 damps (24 dB) beats proto scans just like before (no change w/GA Logi either). Efficacy bonuses made more sense prior to EWAR normalization. I'm not altogether opposed to the concept, but I believe there are cleaner ways to solve the "assault lite" problem (if it is in fact a problem). not sure I understand what you mean by EWAR normalisation. what I think is odd and easily tweaked is that the suit bonus works when modules actually used. My cal scout gets to see 90% of possible suit permeations without having to use a precision enhancer - this makes no sense to me. I realise that precision amp skills etc affects all suits - so the base stats need to be reviewed and there are more variables in play ....
xAckie Ghost. Mob 454	Posted - 2014.10.13 13:32:00 - [248] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Stats would then be: Assault 44/50 profile/precision Logi 44/44 profile/precision STD Active scanner 44db why would the logi be better than the assault when the assault should be the hunter?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5847	Posted - 2014.10.13 13:34:00 - [249] - Quote xAckie wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: Stats would then be: Assault 44/50 profile/precision Logi 44/44 profile/precision STD Active scanner 44db why would the logi be better than the assault when the assault should be the hunter? Logi Precision is currently 5 better than Assault. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
xAckie Ghost. Mob 454	Posted - 2014.10.13 13:38:00 - [250] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: xAckie wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: Stats would then be: Assault 44/50 profile/precision Logi 44/44 profile/precision STD Active scanner 44db why would the logi be better than the assault when the assault should be the hunter? Logi Precision is currently 5 better than Assault. and it is wrong

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5848	Posted - 2014.10.13 13:49:00 - [251] - Quote xAckie wrote: not sure I understand what you mean by EWAR normalisation. Pre Charlie, two Scouts were EWAR competitive; the CA Scout and the GA Scout. AM/MN Scouts were marginalized by CA Scout scan intensity, which was required to keep pace with the GA Scout's extremely low profile. MN Scouts were scanned regardless of how many damps they ran. AM Scouts were largely unused. Unhealthy. Post Charlie, each scout can reach similar Profile, Precision and Scan Range values, assuming they commit all their slots to doing so. Values at the extremes are now much closer to one another; hence ~~"normalization"~~ "normalisation". xAckie wrote: I realise that precision amp skills etc affects all suits - so the base stats need to be reviewed and there are more variables in play.... Models wherein low-dB profiles are dominated by low-dB precision haven't worked in the past, and we can't tweak one end of the spectrum without affecting the other. I'm not saying that base stats shouldn't be improved upon, but I will say that shifting low-dB profile/precision interplay to favor precision will result in unhealthier utilization rates among Scouts (lots of GA, lots less of the others). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Jebus McKing lol Proto 764	Posted - 2014.10.13 14:03:00 - [252] - Quote xAckie wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: Stats would then be: Assault 44/50 profile/precision Logi 44/44 profile/precision STD Active scanner 44db why would the logi be better than the assault when the assault should be the hunter? Care to elaborate why Assaults should be hunters and what your proposed stats then would be and why? For me Assaults are footsoldiers and I want to give them a limited dampening ability so they have the chance to make dampened fits for flanking. Not making them omnipotent. Logis are supporters and scans with limited range and precision are a form of support. But the true hunters are scouts. Especially the Amarr scout with its ability to easily scan down even scouts if they don't have at least 2x damps. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3617	Posted - 2014.10.13 14:22:00 - [253] - Quote Scouts being the only counter to scouts is a problem. It's no different than the only counter to snipers being snipers (it's not anymore) or the only counter to a sentinel being a a sentinel (it never was). That kind of deliberate design has always been abused. Just look at all of the FOTM stuff and the number of times it has been pointed out that x feature had no real counters. The idea that a scout has to screw up to be killed or that a enemy should get lucky and happen to spot them inbound is not a counter. A counter should be a counter and be dependant upon mechanics and some functioning level of skill and awareness. The curretnt EWAR system renders the only hard counter to a scout being the cout screwing up badly or having a bad luck moment. Scout EWAR needs a counter that lime AV vs V. Is not an assured win. But by the same token the scout needs to have some chance of failure of stealth so that they can occasionally be pinged. The curretn syatem allows no margin for error. It is binary. It is permascan/permahide. Both permascan and permahide are bad and need to be killed. There needs to be a variable whether that variable is range, movement or amount of time spent inside enemy scan range or an RNG that sets a 1 in 20 chance that a scout appears on your radar or the sentinel briefly vanishes. In DUST the only sure outcome is the results of scanning and profile. Because there is no variable involved it will always be permascan and permahide. This is not healthy over the long term for the game when one subset of players haas a clear and uncounterable advantage over the rest of the players. No any counter dependent upon the scout screwing up or for the circumstances to unfold so you happen to notice a cloak is not a counter. Dumb luck is never a counter. It's just dumb luck..
xAckie Ghost. Mob 454	Posted - 2014.10.13 14:48:00 - [254] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: xAckie wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: Stats would then be: Assault 44/50 profile/precision Logi 44/44 profile/precision STD Active scanner 44db why would the logi be better than the assault when the assault should be the hunter? Care to elaborate why Assaults should be hunters and what your proposed stats then would be and why? compared to logis. The numbers should be equalised.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1153	Posted - 2014.10.13 14:50:00 - [255] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Actually I just finished a really nifty spreadsheet for passives... We can't satisfy demand to scan at high end of the spectrum (where assault lite lives) without interfering with interplay at the low end of the spectrum. If the baseline gets moved, CA/MN/AM scouts get marginalized. Hence the compromise with Active Scanners. While the tool looks cool, something to do the math for us will have no bearing on our disagreement. No, you are the one who only wants to tweak one variable. You are the only one who thinks it is fine that an assault CANNOT see an undamped scout with just a cloak on it. The interplay between passives is still utter garbage, and that needs to change. Basically the tool will make it easier to show how completely broken passive EWAR system still is. Medium suits need to be part of this discussion, the fact you think they don't is the problem. Fixing EWAR
Jebus McKing lol Proto 764	Posted - 2014.10.13 14:58:00 - [256] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Scouts being the only counter to scouts is a problem. It's no different than the only counter to snipers being snipers (it's not anymore) or the only counter to a sentinel being a a sentinel (it never was). That kind of deliberate design has always been abused. Just look at all of the FOTM stuff and the number of times it has been pointed out that x feature had no real counters. The idea that a scout has to screw up to be killed or that a enemy should get lucky and happen to spot them inbound is not a counter. A counter should be a counter and be dependant upon mechanics and some functioning level of skill and awareness. The curretnt EWAR system renders the only hard counter to a scout being the cout screwing up badly or having a bad luck moment. Scout EWAR needs a counter that lime AV vs V. Is not an assured win. But by the same token the scout needs to have some chance of failure of stealth so that they can occasionally be pinged. The curretn syatem allows no margin for error. It is binary. It is permascan/permahide. Both permascan and permahide are bad and need to be killed. There needs to be a variable whether that variable is range, movement or amount of time spent inside enemy scan range or an RNG that sets a 1 in 20 chance that a scout appears on your radar or the sentinel briefly vanishes. In DUST the only sure outcome is the results of scanning and profile. Because there is no variable involved it will always be permascan and permahide. This is not healthy over the long term for the game when one subset of players haas a clear and uncounterable advantage over the rest of the players. No any counter dependent upon the scout screwing up or for the circumstances to unfold so you happen to notice a cloak is not a counter. Dumb luck is never a counter. It's just dumb luck.. But what has been proposed as being a counter to scouts is like a counter to snipers that involves marking them with an attack order so that everyone can see them. (By the way, have you tried marking a scout with an attack order? Works wonderfully even when they cloak up while marked.) What you call "dumb luck" in many cases really is just situational awareness. It is a skill that is not on the skilltree and that you have to learn by real effort and not by spending SP. The counter to scouts is situational awareness. So many times I have killed scouts who were running cloaked across an open field and thought they were invisible. Silly scouts. The real problem though is the scouts scanning abilities. In a 1on1 where one of the players is all-seeing and the other one is blind (at least radar-wise) no ** the all-seeing guy will win. > And I don't think that making both of them all-seeing is the solution but making both of them blind is. <** That is why I propose to buff the Assaults dampening abilities. If they can't see you they will have a harder time sneaking up on you. There is no doubt that if we could have a huge client update that completely reworked the EWAR mechanics we could make a system that is not on/off. But since we can't, we have to work with what we got right now. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5849	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:06:00 - [257] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 1. No, you are the one who only wants to tweak one variable. 2. You are the only one who thinks it is fine that an assault CANNOT see an undamped scout with just a cloak on it. 3. The interplay between passives is still utter garbage, and that needs to change. 4. Basically the tool will make it easier to show how completely broken passive EWAR system still is. 5. Medium suits need to be part of this discussion, the fact you think they don't is the problem. 1. Which would give more mercs means to scan undampened Scouts, yes. 2. Nonsense. I just handed you the solution. 3. Does restating your opinion eventually make it a fact? 4. Your premise if fundamentally flawed. Spreadsheet cannot fix this for you. 5. Logis can already scan undampened scouts; assaults could too with the 25dB AS buff. If you want scan properly dampened scouts at low dB, add a counter-recon unit to your squad. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Jebus McKing lol Proto 764	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:16:00 - [258] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: You are the only one who thinks it is fine that an assault CANNOT see an undamped scout with just a cloak on it. Assault with 3x precision can see AM/MN scout with proto cloak. Logi with 3x precision can see all scouts with proto cloak. Proto active scanner (NO GalLogi bonus) can scan AM/MN scouts with proto cloak. Proto active scanner (+GalLogi bonus) can scan CAL/GAL if they don't have at least 1x damp, and AM/MN if they don't have at least 2x damp. If you cannot rely on your dampening to work then you might as well use plates instead. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1153	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:16:00 - [259] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 1. No, you are the one who only wants to tweak one variable. 2. You are the only one who thinks it is fine that an assault CANNOT see an undamped scout with just a cloak on it. 3. The interplay between passives is still utter garbage, and that needs to change. 4. Basically the tool will make it easier to show how completely broken passive EWAR system still is. 5. Medium suits need to be part of this discussion, the fact you think they don't is the problem. 1. Which would give more mercs means to scan undampened Scouts, yes. 2. Nonsense. I just handed you the solution. 3. Does restating your opinion eventually make it a fact? 4. Your premise if fundamentally flawed. Spreadsheet cannot fix this for you. 5. Logis can already scan undampened scouts; assaults could too with the 25dB AS buff. If you want scan properly dampened scouts at low dB, add a counter-recon unit to your squad. You know what, I am pretty sure you just don't want an assault(with THREE ENHANCERS) to be able to passively scan a scout that has 1 damp and a cloak.... you don't want that as possiblity. Just go ahead and admit that. Actually you don't want any medium suit to be able to passively scan a scout that only commits one damp do you? No matter how many enhancers a medium puts on... Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5849	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:19:00 - [260] - Quote I've already told you several times, Magnus. Because tweaking the top-end of the spectrum impacts the low-end of the spectrum. The only realistic workaround is the Active Scanner. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3618	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:21:00 - [261] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Scouts being the only counter to scouts is a problem. snip A counter should be a counter and be dependant upon mechanics and some functioning level of skill and awareness. snip I will say again. The counter to scouts is not scanning. You are looking at this from the wrong angle. Scanning is one counter, but it is not the primary method that people should use to beat scouts. Beating scouts is about awareness, reactions and team play (this most of all). This is fundamental to the whole mechanics of having a stealth class in the game. Remove this and you destroy the whole idea of scouts. The same argument could be used for literally everything. The way to beat a heavy in CQC is to be aware of him. Dropships aren't unbalanced you need situational awareness. Situational awareness does not compensate for the fact that one of the tools in your awareness toolbox will always fail (your scanner). Scouts ARE damn close to invisible if they are not moving. It is only when they are walking/running that it becomes easy to pick them out of the background. Again your solution depends on circumstances and the scout screwing up. This is not a valid balance point for EWAR. Everything in this game has a hard counter except dampened scouts. In order for a balance there must be a hard counter OR a tweakable and modifiable failure chance.
Jebus McKing lol Proto 766	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:23:00 - [262] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: You know what, I am pretty sure you just don't want an assault(with THREE ENHANCERS) to be able to passively scan a scout that has 1 damp and a cloak.... you don't want that as possiblity. Just go ahead and admit that. Actually you don't want any medium suit to be able to passively scan a scout that only commits one damp do you? No matter how many enhancers a medium puts on... I admit that I don't want an assault with 3x enhancers to be able to scan a scout with 1x damp + cloak. I admit that I don't want a CAL/MN scout with 2x enhancers to be able to scan an assault with 2x damps. The solution is not buffing precision, it is buffing damps. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5849	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:26:00 - [263] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: The solution is not buffing precision, it is buffing damps. This might come in handy for Haerr's cloak concept ... If cloak is active, set precision = 99 (scouts are effectively blind while cloaked). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3618	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:27:00 - [264] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: You know what, I am pretty sure you just don't want an assault(with THREE ENHANCERS) to be able to passively scan a scout that has 1 damp and a cloak.... you don't want that as possiblity. Just go ahead and admit that. Actually you don't want any medium suit to be able to passively scan a scout that only commits one damp do you? No matter how many enhancers a medium puts on... I admit that I don't want an assault with 3x enhancers to be able to scan a scout with 1x damp + cloak. I admit that I don't want a CAL/MN scout with 2x enhancers to be able to scan an assault with 2x damps. The solution is not buffing precision, it is buffing damps. Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can dtill defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down.
Jebus McKing lol Proto 766	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:34:00 - [265] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: You know what, I am pretty sure you just don't want an assault(with THREE ENHANCERS) to be able to passively scan a scout that has 1 damp and a cloak.... you don't want that as possiblity. Just go ahead and admit that. Actually you don't want any medium suit to be able to passively scan a scout that only commits one damp do you? No matter how many enhancers a medium puts on... I admit that I don't want an assault with 3x enhancers to be able to scan a scout with 1x damp + cloak. I admit that I don't want a CAL/MN scout with 2x enhancers to be able to scan an assault with 2x damps. The solution is not buffing precision, it is buffing damps. Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do. See the issue? Which suit? The GalLogi? Use a focused scanner and there you have your RNG fail rate. AM/MN scouts need 3x damps + active cloak to avoid that. CAL/GAL scouts need 2x damps + active cloak to avoid that. Catch them while not cloaked and you know from where they are coming from and you can prepare by keeping your eyes and ears open. Same goes for the AM scout with 2x enhancers. All scouts have to use 2x damps + active cloak to avoid an AM scout fit for scout hunting. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3619	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:40:00 - [266] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Which suit? The GalLogi? Use a focused scanner and there you have your RNG fail rate. AM/MN scouts need 3x damps + active cloak to avoid that. CAL/GAL scouts need 2x damps + active cloak to avoid that. Catch them while not cloaked and you know from where they are coming from and you can prepare by keeping your eyes and ears open. Same goes for the AM scout with 2x enhancers. All scouts have to use 2x damps + active cloak to avoid an AM scout fit for scout hunting. Awesome. Now which suit do I use to CATCH the scout who saw "YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED" flash on his screen and bolts for a hiding place instantly? depending on friendly assets to happen to be in the right place falls under "dumb luck" Buffing the active scanner is not the answer to the problem, and secondly, you fall back to the fact that only a scout can catch a scout. Therefore the only counter to a scout's EWAR is still a scout.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 284	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:42:00 - [267] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted and skill bonused for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do. See the issue? Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them?
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1153	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:43:00 - [268] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I've already told you several times, Magnus. Because we can't tweak the top-end of the spectrum without impacting the low-end of the spectrum. The Active Scanner change would be an effective work around. It'd permit you to solve top-end issues without creating new imbalance at the low end. Why would I ever expect you to give me a direct answer... ever. No that would mean you want to have a discussion. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1153	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:44:00 - [269] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted and skill bonused for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do. See the issue? Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them? So you think 1 damp should make a scout invisible, ok then I guess all scouts should only have 1-2 lowslots then. You see how ridiculous that sounds right? If you are invisible, you should be a paper towel. Fixing EWAR
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3619	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:45:00 - [270] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted and skill bonused for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do. See the issue? Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them? what's the point of a radar if no matter what you do and how many sensor strength modifications you add you will still never catch them. I mean hell, you can't even detect a sentinel until he's WELL within his optimal range on that thing. But another dropsuit fitted to detect scouts instead of fitting for damage or tank should absolutely be able to detect scouts in exchange for their sacrifice. It means a killer fit will fart nearby and they will die instantly.

Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1153	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:46:00 - [271] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted and skill bonused for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do. See the issue? Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them? what's the point of a radar if no matter what you do and how many sensor strength modifications you add you will still never catch them. I mean hell, you can't even detect a sentinel until he's WELL within his optimal range on that thing. But another dropsuit fitted to detect scouts instead of fitting for damage or tank should absolutely be able to detect scouts in exchange for their sacrifice. Exactly. Fixing EWAR
Jebus McKing lol Proto 766	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:47:00 - [272] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: The solution is not buffing precision, it is buffing damps. This might come in handy for Haerr's cloak concept ... If cloak is active, set precision = 99 (scouts are effectively ewar blind while cloaked). One of few problems with the concept is that the cloak can only affect one scan parameter at a time, which is currently pointed to Profile. If we zeroed profile, we'd muck up low-end profile/precision interplay unless it was offset elsewhere (i.e. damps). I'll check the math :-) Yesss, Haerr is my bro and that is a great idea. Make it work somehow. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5850	Posted - 2014.10.13 16:00:00 - [273] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I've already told you several times, Magnus. Because we can't tweak the top-end of the spectrum without impacting the low-end of the spectrum. The Active Scanner change would be an effective work around. It'd permit you to solve top-end issues without creating new imbalance at the low end. Why would I ever expect you to give me a direct answer... ever. No that would mean you want to have a discussion. Correct. I'm not here to debate the benefits of bad ideas, or to debunk each and every opinion you state as fact. I've explained why you're proposal is flawed. Whether or not you agree with my explanation does not make it less right. Take it or leave it. Happy or sad. Makes no difference to me, friend. That said, you have stumbled upon a legitimate issue which I believe we can solve without creating new, bigger issues. If you wish to participate, feel free. In fact, when we're done crunching numbers, you can put your name on this solution and call it your own. After all, the solution originated in your thread. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3620	Posted - 2014.10.13 16:03:00 - [274] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: In fact, when we're done crunching numbers, you can put your name on this solution and call it your own. After all, the solution originated in your thread. Wow that was one of the most smarmy and condescending-appearing things I have ever seen on this forum. Very nicely done. I predict your suggestion will be met with absolute hostility. Especially since it's a band-aid that obscures the core problems behind the EWAR mechanics.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1153	Posted - 2014.10.13 16:06:00 - [275] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I've already told you several times, Magnus. Because we can't tweak the top-end of the spectrum without impacting the low-end of the spectrum. The Active Scanner change would be an effective work around. It'd permit you to solve top-end issues without creating new imbalance at the low end. Why would I ever expect you to give me a direct answer... ever. No that would mean you want to have a discussion. Correct. I'm not here to debate the benefits of bad ideas, or to debunk each and every opinion you state as fact. I've explained why you're proposal is flawed. Whether or not you agree with my explanation does not make it less right. Take it or leave it. That said, you have stumbled upon a legitimate issue which I believe we can solve without creating new, bigger issues. If you wish to participate, feel free. In fact, when we're done crunching numbers, you can put your name on this idea and call it your own. No, you are here to say you are right and everyone else is wrong, plug your ears, and have no discussion at all. You do not get to solely declare an idea good or bad definitively. I am not sure why you have this delusion of grandeur. Medium suits being able to passively scan a tanked scout with a token damp is a HUGE issue. No, I do not want you involved because you cannot see that one simple thing. You have no concept of balance. Just the mere idea that you think that it is currently balanced is a HUGE problem, and you should really GTFO. You refuse to directly answer questions, you refuse to expand on ideas, you refuse to clarify reasoning. You are not here for discussion, and because of that you need to leave. Boosting scanners was never your idea, you are just here to make sure that scouts can fit 2 damps and never worry about EWAR, you just want to maintain the status quo. To think I would even want you involved at this point, after you have dodged every question, sidestepped every piece of evidence, and refuse to think that there might even be a problem, is laughable. Fixing EWAR
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3621	Posted - 2014.10.13 16:09:00 - [276] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: No, you are here to say you are right and everyone else is wrong, plug your ears, and have no discussion at all. You do not get to solely declare an idea good or bad definitively. I am not sure why you have this delusion of grandeur. Medium suits being able to passively scan a tanked scout with a token damp is a HUGE issue. No, I do not want you involved because you cannot see that one simple thing. You have no concept of balance. Just the mere idea that you think that it is currently balanced is a HUGE problem, and you should really GTFO. You refuse to directly answer questions, you refuse to expand on ideas, you refuse to clarify reasoning. You are not here for discussion, and because of that you need to leave. Boosting scanners was never your idea, you are just here to make sure that scouts can fit 2 damps and never worry about EWAR, you just want to maintain the status quo. To think I would even want you involved at this point, after you have dodged every question, sidestepped every piece of evidence, and refuse to think that there might even be a problem, is laughable. Damn I'm good.
jace silencerww Inner.Hell 57	Posted - 2014.10.13 16:12:00 - [277] - Quote all ccp has to do is this to cut down the scouts to real scouts again. this would help with ewar as well on scouts too. read it all the way though please. I see the scouts now best to worst (remember I have 3 of the 4 proto working on the 4th now) first is Gall- great cpu/pg, bonuses give it great ewar (2%precision & 3% damping per level) plus armor tanking and their natural armor regen. Con is when you are using for all speed tanking but you have a 15% damping-from gal scout bonus, plus 10%-cloaks and 10%-core dropsuit profile damping so your profile is 21.42db so beside that they can pretty much do it all at once with little to give up. second is Cald- good cpu/pg, bonuses help with low slots ewar (3% damping & 10% passive scan range per level). very balanced as far as ewar, ehp tanking and speed. you have to give something up to ewar, shield and/or armor tank. Cons the hit box detection needs fixing. third is Amarr- good cpu/pg. bonuses helps with the lack of high slots for ewar. (5% precision, stamina regen & max stamina per level) a strong defense or assault scout who can pick up most other scouts who are trying to sneak attack or stealth defend a point. they stamina makes up for the slight slower speed by sprinting longer and jumping around with armor tanking to defend a point. a good balanced fighter scout you have to give something up to stealth ewar, speed or tank. con is a slight buff better base stats of shield and armor maybe 10-15 ehp higher. last is Minnie. fair at best cpu/pg, bonuses are good if you knowhow to use them. (5% to hacking speed & nova damage) poorly balanced (looks good on paper) good for quick hacking even better with a complex codebreaker. the fastest of the scouts with 11.12 (barely by 0.01, gall scout top sprint is 11.11) fast stamina regen helps to sprinting in hacking, nova knife or throw remotes and get out quickly. Cons is you must choose what you want to do due to not real balance like the other scouts. hacking fast use codebreakers but give up your damping, armor and speed. choose damping but give up speed, armor, and codebreakers. plus you can not shield tank and use speed mods not enough pg even on proto. so want to ewar to see and hide from the gal or amarr scout great but having low ehp and speed. shield it up some and you can not see others scouts. speed tank and some shield you can not hide from other scouts. this is a truly hard scout to run. personally that is why I think the gall damping and Minnie hacking should switch. however the Minnie would get 2% damping at most while the gall get 5% to hacking. with 4 low slots they can easily run dampners with codebreakers to stealth hack and with they precision it would let them see others coming for them while letting them choose like the others scouts do now. if gall don't want the hacking how about 5% to scan range per level that adds 5 meters (at proto) to their 20 meters now plus if you have core range ap maxed that is 35 meters total while the caldari is 40 meters. but this was before Cpt McReady came up with this. Cpt McReady wrote: switch the bonus to modules. normalize the bonus of dampeners and precision enhancers to be equal in strength normalize the base precision and siganture of scouts to be equal in strength solved. first of all 2 damps & proto cloak and your gal logi cant do ****, just like now. and what is the problem that you would have to use damps to be actually invisible? that is the point, to have drawbacks. so if a caldari scouts wishes to see all stuff except a full damped gal scout in exchange for having zero hp than so it be. at least he cannot participate in combat unlike now where the scout can still see almost everything but having enough hp together with a small hitbox. I agree with Cpt McReady on those 3 points. the only bonus that would be hurt by this is the Minnie nova knife damage. but if ccp willing to they could come out with the other racial knives and give the racial nk damage to each one. so then the Minnie could get a new bonus to a module like the others.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 285	Posted - 2014.10.13 16:24:00 - [278] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted and skill bonused for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do. See the issue? Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them? So you think 1 damp should make a scout invisible, ok then I guess all scouts should only have 1-2 lowslots then. You see how ridiculous that sounds right? If you are invisible, you should be a paper towel. I didn't mean just 1 damp. 1 or 2 though, yes. With 2 damps a scout is paper thin. There are other modules that scouts should be using in lows other than damps. What about code breakers, biotics, scan range, (shock) a little armour maybe? It's not just a case of "all damps" or "super-brick-fit". Don't forget mediums have more slots.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1154	Posted - 2014.10.13 16:31:00 - [279] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted and skill bonused for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do. See the issue? Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them? So you think 1 damp should make a scout invisible, ok then I guess all scouts should only have 1-2 lowslots then. You see how ridiculous that sounds right? If you are invisible, you should be a paper towel. I didn't mean just 1 damp. 1 or 2 though, yes. With 2 damps a scout is paper thin. There are other modules that scouts should be using in lows other than damps. What about code breakers, biotics, scan range, (shock) a little armour maybe? It's not just a case of "all damps" or "super-brick-fit". Don't forget mediums have more slots. No, a scout is paper thin by default, with two lowslots you can still add scout 406 HP to an amarr/gal scout (with 3 hp/sec regen armor), 313 HP to a minmatar, and 290 HP to the caldari, more than doubling their eHP. I don't know why you would think that a scout with over DOUBLE close to TRIPLE their original HP isn't a tanked scout. You are right in that scouts should be using other modules in their lows, but when they only commit 1-2 lows to damps, are they really committed to dampening, or is that a token effort that should be negated by another suit that sacrifices more? Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5850	Posted - 2014.10.13 16:39:00 - [280] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: You refuse to directly answer questions, you refuse to expand on ideas, you refuse to clarify reasoning. You are not here for discussion, and because of that you need to leave. Whether or not I leave, your House of Cards will fail because its foundation is flawed. I'm not going help you expand upon an unsound idea or waste time answering your cherry-picked questions. I've been very clear as to my reasoning: Shifting profile/precision interplay to address concerns at the high end of the dB spectrum will create significant issues at the low end of the dB spectrum. This isn't my opinion. This is simple math. We witnessed the effects very recently with pre-Charlie CA Scout v MN Scout interplay. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3622	Posted - 2014.10.13 16:41:00 - [281] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: You refuse to directly answer questions, you refuse to expand on ideas, you refuse to clarify reasoning. You are not here for discussion, and because of that you need to leave. Whether or not I leave, your House of Cards will fail because its foundation is flawed. I'm not going help you expand upon an unsound idea or waste time answering your cherry-picked questions. I've been very clear as to my reasoning: Shifting profile/precision interplay to address concerns at the high end of the dB spectrum will create significant issues at the low end of the dB spectrum. This isn't my opinion. This is simple math. We witnessed the effects very recently with pre-Charlie CA Scout v MN Scout interplay. this would be because in it's current incarnation EWAR is impossible to balance. It has to be rebuilt to be fixed
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5850	Posted - 2014.10.13 16:43:00 - [282] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: ... but when they only commit 1-2 lows to damps, are they really committed to dampening, or is that a token effort that should be negated by another suit that sacrifices more? A) Undampened Scouts are not making sacrifices and can't be scanned by Assaults. Its unfair. B) Scouts running 2 damps aren't making a sacrifice. They can't be scanned by Assaults, which is unfair. So which is it, Magnus? If you're going to blow hard, at least be consistent about. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5850	Posted - 2014.10.13 16:45:00 - [283] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: It has to be rebuilt to be fixed Client-side updates are currently off the table. I do wish you'd catch up. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1154	Posted - 2014.10.13 17:04:00 - [284] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: ... but when they only commit 1-2 lows to damps, are they really committed to dampening, or is that a token effort that should be negated by another suit that sacrifices more? A) Undampened Scouts are not making sacrifices and can't be scanned by Assaults. Its unfair. B) Scouts running 2 damps aren't making significant sacrifices. They can still double their HP or more. ~~They can't be scanned by Assaults.~~ Its unfair. So which is it, Magnus? If you're going to blow hard, at least be consistent about it. Fixed the part where you put some words in my mouth.Added context so that you can't mis-frame the argument (pretty standard fair for you). I have never once stated that an assault should be able to scan a 2 damp scout. Looks consistent to me. Glad that you require falsifying statements to remain relevant. Also glad that you once again "cherrypick" parts of post to argue, but leave the rest. I can only assume that you agree a scout with over DOUBLE it's starting HP is by definition tanked. Adipem Nothi wrote: Shifting profile/precision interplay to address concerns at the high end of the dB spectrum will create significant issues at the low end of the dB spectrum. It is so cute that you think that this isn't an entirely empty statement. All this says, in other words, is "I think scout EWAR interplay is balanced so lets not mess with the interplay from the other suits because I think it is fine now." Or in other words, "everything is working fine for me, screw everyone else." Pretty consistent. Fixing EWAR
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2563	Posted - 2014.10.13 17:08:00 - [285] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: You refuse to directly answer questions, you refuse to expand on ideas, you refuse to clarify reasoning. You are not here for discussion, and because of that you need to leave. Whether or not I leave, your House of Cards will fail because its foundation is flawed. I'm not going help you expand upon an unsound idea or waste time answering your cherry-picked questions. I've been very clear as to my reasoning: Shifting profile/precision interplay to address concerns at the high end of the dB spectrum will create significant issues at the low end of the dB spectrum. This isn't my opinion. This is simple math. We witnessed the effects very recently with pre-Charlie CA Scout v MN Scout interplay. this would be because in it's current incarnation EWAR is impossible to balance. It has to be rebuilt to be fixed Agreed. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=175921 Pretty much balances it, or at least takes a good step in the right direction "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 286	Posted - 2014.10.13 18:16:00 - [286] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted and skill bonused for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do. See the issue? Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them? So you think 1 damp should make a scout invisible, ok then I guess all scouts should only have 1-2 lowslots then. You see how ridiculous that sounds right? If you are invisible, you should be a paper towel. I didn't mean just 1 damp. 1 or 2 though, yes. With 2 damps a scout is paper thin. There are other modules that scouts should be using in lows other than damps. What about code breakers, biotics, scan range, (shock) a little armour maybe? It's not just a case of "all damps" or "super-brick-fit". Don't forget mediums have more slots. No, a scout is paper thin by default, with two lowslots you can still add scout 406 HP to an amarr/gal scout (with 3 hp/sec regen armor), 313 HP to a minmatar, and 290 HP to the caldari, more than doubling their eHP. I don't know why you would think that a scout with over DOUBLE close to TRIPLE their original HP isn't a tanked scout. You are right in that scouts should be using other modules in their lows, but when they only commit 1-2 lows to damps, are they really committed to dampening, or is that a token effort that should be negated by another suit that sacrifices more? i didn't say it wasn't tanked, just that it was still low hp. Considering you are talking about completely bricking the suit (other than the damps) to get to about (or a little over) half the average hp of a proto assault I would consider that pretty low on the hp scale.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1154	Posted - 2014.10.13 18:40:00 - [287] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: i didn't say it wasn't tanked, just that it was still low hp. Considering you are talking about completely bricking the suit (other than the damps) to get to about (or a little over) half the average hp of a proto assault I would consider that pretty low on the hp scale. 700 eHP with 3 hp/sec armor rep is not low and 30 hp/sec shield (with a small delay). Especially when that suit is 100% invisible and puts out over 500 DPS, runs at over 7m/sec for a long time, with great stamina recharge, while being able to see all non damped suits (aside from the gal/caldari scouts) from 30 meters away. No sacrifice made there. That is pretty solid mid-HP numbers, with rep, with great shield recharge, and great damage, and immunity to scans, and great ewar, on a suit that didn't focus on anything. And proto assaults have really high HP, not sure why you would think to compare to that. Fixing EWAR
jace silencerww Inner.Hell 58	Posted - 2014.10.13 19:50:00 - [288] - Quote look the gal scout can do it ewar and brick or speed tank. proto suit- 2 complex precisions, 2 complex dampners, and proto cloak (full ewar ready) proto shotgun, adv sidearm(your choice) basic grenades, remotes or hives, OH THAT IS RIGHT you still have 2 free low slots armor or speed armor puts it up to 460 armor or speed puts it up to 10.01 sprint speed or half and half armor 311 & sprint speed 8.57 oh plus natural regen of 3 :) caldari and armarr are more ewar and tanking balanced for they roles. amarr- defend or assault a point. caldari long range recon or long range fighting. however the Minnie have to give up a lot just to one or the other, full ewar means no ehp or speed. tanking means give up damping or precision, trying to do both means you are below the other scouts in every field. switch the bonus to modules. normalize the bonus of dampeners and precision enhancers to be equal in strength normalize the base precision and siganture of scouts to be equal in strength solved. that would solve a lot. the only bonus that would be hurt by this is the Minnie nova knife damage. but if ccp willing to they could come out with the other racial knives and give the racial nk damage to each one. so then the Minnie could get a new bonus to a module like the others.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5863	Posted - 2014.10.13 19:52:00 - [289] - Quote I challenge you! Prove my hyperbole to be wrong! Line by line! If you don't, we'll assume that my hyperbole is fact (whether or not its hogwash). If you do, each counterpoint you offer will be challenged with new hogwash hyperbole. Rinse, Repeat. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1154	Posted - 2014.10.13 20:02:00 - [290] - Quote jace silencerww wrote: look the gal scout can do it ewar and brick or speed tank. proto suit- 2 complex precisions, 2 complex dampners, and proto cloak (full ewar ready) proto shotgun, adv sidearm(your choice) basic grenades, remotes or hives, OH THAT IS RIGHT you still have 2 free low slots armor or speed armor puts it up to 460 armor or speed puts it up to 10.01 sprint speed or half and half armor 311 & sprint speed 8.57 oh plus natural regen of 3 :) caldari and armarr are more ewar and tanking balanced for they roles. amarr- defend or assault a point. caldari long range recon or long range fighting. however the Minnie have to give up a lot just to one or the other, full ewar means no ehp or speed. tanking means give up damping or precision, trying to do both means you are below the other scouts in every field. switch the bonus to modules. normalize the bonus of dampeners and precision enhancers to be equal in strength normalize the base precision and siganture of scouts to be equal in strength solved. that would solve a lot. the only bonus that would be hurt by this is the Minnie nova knife damage. but if ccp willing to they could come out with the other racial knives and give the racial nk damage to each one. so then the Minnie could get a new bonus to a module like the others. I am with you on alot of that. I totally agree we should normalize the damps/enhancers to ewither 20/20 or 25/25 I fully agree that we should normalize scout profile/scan to 40/40 I also think switching to module based bonuses would probably be enough in that circumstance.... but (you knew there was a but) The minmatar scout will still be left out in the cold. The caldari/minmatar scouts will still be the best, thisis the reason why I think it really should be 1 EWAR bonus MAX per scout suit. I also think if minmatar do not get an ewar bonus, they should get 39/39 profile/dampening versus 40/40. This makes them slightly (and I do mean slighty) below base passive scan and above base passive damp. It at least involves them in the EWAR battle. Fixing EWAR

Jebus McKing lol Proto 766	Posted - 2014.10.13 20:15:00 - [291] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 700 eHP with 3 hp/sec armor rep is not low and 30 hp/sec shield (with a small delay). Especially when that suit is 100% invisible and puts out over 500 DPS, runs at over 7m/sec for a long time, with great stamina recharge, while being able to see all non damped suits (aside from the gal/caldari scouts) from 30 meters away. No sacrifice made there. That is pretty solid mid-HP numbers, with rep, with great shield recharge, and great damage, and immunity to scans, and great ewar, on a suit that didn't focus on anything. And proto assaults have really high HP, not sure why you would think to compare to that. Those 3hp/s rep won't help you much. If you survive your first fight you will die in the second one if you don't want to wait for 2 minutes. 700eHP sounds like a lot but it really is not. You won't have much room to fit a good sidearm, grenade, and 2nd equipment. Your strafe speed will be pathetic. Stamina regen of the Gal scout really isn't all that great. You will only be invisible as long as you are cloaked, and as long as you are not engaging anyone. Since you sacrificed all of your speed you won't even be able to run away when suddenly more than one guy decides to start shooting at you. You won't withstand fire from multiple people, even those 700eHP won't save you. 30m scan range for a scout really is kinda... meh. 30m means that you will be inside the optimal range of pretty much any weapon when people finally start showing up on your radar. Compared to an Assault you will have sacrificed eHP, regen, and damage in order to accomplish invisibility. Compared to a Scout you will have sacrificed, regen, speed, scan range, scan precision in order to get more eHP. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
jace silencerww Inner.Hell 59	Posted - 2014.10.13 20:33:00 - [292] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: jace silencerww wrote: look the gal scout can do it ewar and brick or speed tank. proto suit- 2 complex precisions, 2 complex dampners, and proto cloak (full ewar ready) proto shotgun, adv sidearm(your choice) basic grenades, remotes or hives, OH THAT IS RIGHT you still have 2 free low slots armor or speed armor puts it up to 460 armor or speed puts it up to 10.01 sprint speed or half and half armor 311 & sprint speed 8.57 oh plus natural regen of 3 :) caldari and armarr are more ewar and tanking balanced for they roles. amarr- defend or assault a point. caldari long range recon or long range fighting. however the Minnie have to give up a lot just to one or the other, full ewar means no ehp or speed. tanking means give up damping or precision, trying to do both means you are below the other scouts in every field. switch the bonus to modules. normalize the bonus of dampeners and precision enhancers to be equal in strength normalize the base precision and siganture of scouts to be equal in strength solved. that would solve a lot. the only bonus that would be hurt by this is the Minnie nova knife damage. but if ccp willing to they could come out with the other racial knives and give the racial nk damage to each one. so then the Minnie could get a new bonus to a module like the others. I am with you on alot of that. I totally agree we should normalize the damps/enhancers to ewither 20/20 or 25/25 I fully agree that we should normalize scout profile/scan to 40/40 I also think switching to module based bonuses would probably be enough in that circumstance.... but (you knew there was a but) The minmatar scout will still be left out in the cold. The caldari/minmatar scouts will still be the best, thisis the reason why I think it really should be 1 EWAR bonus MAX per scout suit. I also think if minmatar do not get an ewar bonus, they should get 39/39 profile/dampening versus 40/40. This makes them slightly (and I do mean slighty) below base passive scan and above base passive damp. It at least involves them in the EWAR battle. agree that is why if ccp moved them to modules. the Minnie bonuses could be to hacking and to kin cats vs ewar. if not then why not give them as you said a slightly lower natural scan profile and scan precision 39/39. but a lot of the Minnie scouts want to keep the nk damage and I agree that what the Minnie are good at.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1154	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:01:00 - [293] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 700 eHP with 3 hp/sec armor rep is not low and 30 hp/sec shield (with a small delay). Especially when that suit is 100% invisible and puts out over 500 DPS, runs at over 7m/sec for a long time, with great stamina recharge, while being able to see all non damped suits (aside from the gal/caldari scouts) from 30 meters away. No sacrifice made there. That is pretty solid mid-HP numbers, with rep, with great shield recharge, and great damage, and immunity to scans, and great ewar, on a suit that didn't focus on anything. And proto assaults have really high HP, not sure why you would think to compare to that. Those 3hp/s rep won't help you much. If you survive your first fight you will die in the second one if you don't want to wait for 2 minutes. 700eHP sounds like a lot but it really is not. You won't have much room to fit a good sidearm, grenade, and 2nd equipment. Your strafe speed will be pathetic. Stamina regen of the Gal scout really isn't all that great. You will only be invisible as long as you are cloaked, and as long as you are not engaging anyone. Since you sacrificed all of your speed you won't even be able to run away when suddenly more than one guy decides to start shooting at you. You won't withstand fire from multiple people, even those 700eHP won't save you. 30m scan range for a scout really is kinda... meh. 30m means that you will be inside the optimal range of pretty much any weapon when people finally start showing up on your radar. Compared to an Assault you will have sacrificed eHP, regen, and damage in order to accomplish invisibility. Compared to a Scout you will have sacrificed, regen, speed, scan range, scan precision in order to get more eHP. I just love the mental gymastics you had to go through to type that. You are actually talking about taking on multiple suits in a fight using a scout..... I mean like a brawl, not assassination. Wow man. Invisible scouts should be made out of tissue paper. Do you honestly think a scout should be able to take on even a logistics in a straight up brawl (all other things being equal)? You're not an ex-tanker are you? You'll be way faster than the assault you see the assault coming before and he will never see you, without fitting anything for it you WILL be invisible to all passive scans dodging the proto focused scanner requires you to activate the cloak you'll have 3x the HP of a non-tanked scout you will have a tiny hitbox your strafe speed will still be 4.41m/sec, 0nly .5 m/sec less than before, sitll way faster than that assault. 30m is a long range when you fit nothing to that end I cannot believe you think nearly tripling a suits HP, while still being undetectable, fast, invisible, and doing the same amount of damage as a logi/assault does (sans dmg mods) is defensible. Fixing EWAR
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 286	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:03:00 - [294] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: i didn't say it wasn't tanked, just that it was still low hp. Considering you are talking about completely bricking the suit (other than the damps) to get to about (or a little over) half the average hp of a proto assault I would consider that pretty low on the hp scale. 700 eHP with 3 hp/sec armor rep is not low and 30 hp/sec shield (with a small delay). Especially when that suit is 100% invisible and puts out over 500 DPS, runs at over 7m/sec for a long time, with great stamina recharge, while being able to see all non damped suits (aside from the gal/caldari scouts) from 30 meters away. No sacrifice made there. That is pretty solid mid-HP numbers, with rep, with great shield recharge, and great damage, and immunity to scans, and great ewar, on a suit that didn't focus on anything. And proto assaults have really high HP, not sure why you would think to compare to that. Not bad, bit too slow to really make good use of the dampening, cloak and 30m scan though. Pretty terrible regen for all that armour. You say it isn't specialised but I would say that is pretty specisalised in dampening and hp, and not a terrible fit. I would have thought a proto assault would be the natural thing to compare to a tanked proto scout. I can make a Gallente assault with 500ish more hp, 4 times the armour regen and only marginally slower (yes the scout has slightly better shield regen, stamina and hitbox, not game-changers though). Plus the assault has a bonus to it's primary weapon. Now, the weapon bonus may be lackluster, but CCP has expressed a desire to look into this issue. People seem to think that losing the EWAR battle means immediate death. It doesn't. May I also point out that I supported the idea to slightly reduce assault suit profile. This would allow the assault to sacrifice 100ish hp to dampen below the scout's scans. Not a perfect EWAR solution due to the possibility of being scanned by more powerful scanners, but a pretty decent counter to some of the scout's EWAR I think. Edit, if your scout fit really is a problem. Wouldn't it make more sense to do something about a scout's ability to stack armour plates, than to attack it's EWAR capabilities?
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1154	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:23:00 - [295] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: i didn't say it wasn't tanked, just that it was still low hp. Considering you are talking about completely bricking the suit (other than the damps) to get to about (or a little over) half the average hp of a proto assault I would consider that pretty low on the hp scale. 700 eHP with 3 hp/sec armor rep is not low and 30 hp/sec shield (with a small delay). Especially when that suit is 100% invisible and puts out over 500 DPS, runs at over 7m/sec for a long time, with great stamina recharge, while being able to see all non damped suits (aside from the gal/caldari scouts) from 30 meters away. No sacrifice made there. That is pretty solid mid-HP numbers, with rep, with great shield recharge, and great damage, and immunity to scans, and great ewar, on a suit that didn't focus on anything. And proto assaults have really high HP, not sure why you would think to compare to that. Not bad, bit too slow to really make good use of the dampening, cloak and 30m scan though. Pretty terrible regen for all that armour. You say it isn't specialised but I would say that is pretty specisalised in dampening and hp, and not a terrible fit. I would have thought a proto assault would be the natural thing to compare to a tanked proto scout. I can make a Gallente assault with 500ish more hp, 4 times the armour regen and only marginally slower (yes the scout has slightly better shield regen, stamina and hitbox, not game-changers though). Plus the assault has a bonus to it's primary weapon. Now, the weapon bonus may be lackluster, but CCP has expressed a desire to look into this issue. People seem to think that losing the EWAR battle means immediate death. It doesn't. May I also point out that I supported the idea to slightly reduce assault suit profile. This would allow the assault to sacrifice 100ish hp to dampen below the scout's scans. Not a perfect EWAR solution due to the possibility of being scanned by more powerful scanners, but a pretty decent counter to some of the scout's EWAR I think. Edit, if your scout fit really is a problem. Wouldn't it make more sense to do something about a scout's ability to stack armour plates, than to attack it's EWAR capabilities? You have to admit first strike and dictating the terms of engagement (something that suit does not specialize in, it gets that for free) is a formidable advantage. Many many kills happen before the enemy has enough time to react, let alone engage. This is such a ridiculously HUGE advantage that every other game with a unit capable of it is made out of tissue paper. There is a reason for that. Also, suits tend to either heavily specialize (i.e fully dedicated to one thing) or they are not the pinnacle of it. This doesn't apply to the scout above... it has the absolute best needed profile while still having 1 equipment and 4 module slots available. That's the thing, what can you do about scouts stacking HP modules (shield extenders in the case of the caldari)? Do you reduce the total number of slots so that they have to make these decisions? Do you make HP modules percentage based (my prefered solution, it maintains the same relative seperations between suits as they were original designed.... and it would be like every other module in game)? How do you make it so that an assault with 3 x complex enhancers can scan out a scout that doesn't fit for dampening at all? ( I will need to hear a great reason as to why an assault that fully sacrifices for EWAR shouldn't compete with a scout that doesn't at all) Fixing EWAR
Jebus McKing lol Proto 767	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:47:00 - [296] - Quote Magnus: You'll be way faster than the assault An invisible Gal scout with 700eHP will move at little more than 7m/s. My Min Assault will out-run and out-strafe that. Magnus: you see the assault coming before and he will never see you, without fitting anything for it If the Assault is stupid enough to never check his corners or too blind to see the purple shimmer, then yes. Magnus: you WILL be invisible to all passive scans Yes and that is good. Damps should beat enhancers, always. Gal with 2x damps beats Am scout with 2x enhancers. Magnus: dodging the proto focused scanner requires you to activate the cloak The margin is small, but even a Gal scout with 2x damps is not unscannable 100% of the time. Magnus: you'll have 3x the HP of a non-tanked scout And still 40% HP less than even the a badly fitted Assault. Plus you will have sacrificed scan range, scan precision, damage, and speed. Magnus: you will have a tiny hitbox As do all the scouts. No changes to EWAR will fix that. Magnus: your strafe speed will still be 4.41m/sec, 0nly .5 m/sec less than before, sitll way faster than that assault. A properly fit MN Assault will have 4.77m/s and still have 40% more eHP, and better regen. Sure, if you put on more plates your speed will drop, but you eHP advantage will increase even more. Magnus: 30m is a long range when you fit nothing to that end Indeed it is. But these also are parameters we can tweak without giving Assaults the ability to scan scouts. For example, like I said a lot of times already, buffing the Assaults base profile would help a lot without giving even more suits wallhacks. Magnus: I cannot believe you think nearly tripling a suits HP, while still being undetectable, fast, invisible, and doing the same amount of damage as a logi/assault does (sans dmg mods) is defensible. Tripling a suits HP? What kind of parameter is that? You can triple the HP of an Assault just as well. You can even quadruple the HP of a Logi easily. How is that a problem when a scout does it? And don't say again that he doesn't have to sacrifice anything, because that is not true. Like I said before: You will be as slow as an Assault, deal less damage, have a **** regen, and still have at least 40% less eHP than an Assault. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5868	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:55:00 - [297] - Quote @ Jebus May have found a way to make Haerr's idea work. Would you mind spot-checking this for potential problems? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1155	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:25:00 - [298] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Magnus: You'll be way faster than the assault An invisible Gal scout with 700eHP will move at little more than 7m/s. My Min Assault will out-run and out-strafe that. with no non-ferroscale plates fitted, yes this is true. Maybe if you throw on a kincat... but hey you are sacrificing here, the scout isn't even interested in speed according to that fit and still better at nearly everything and hard to hit Magnus: you see the assault coming before and he will never see you, without fitting anything for it If the Assault is stupid enough to never check his corners or too blind to see the purple shimmer, then yes. This argument has been shot down so many times. Cloaks have different visibility based upon: map, lighting conditions, surrounding terran, time of day. This have been proven on video (Judge) to be near invisible Magnus: you WILL be invisible to all passive scans Yes and that is good. Damps should beat enhancers, always. Gal with 2x damps beats Am scout with 2x enhancers. With just two slots, you end any and all EWAR interplay, that is bad design Magnus: dodging the proto focused scanner requires you to activate the cloak The margin is small, but even a Gal scout with 2x damps is not unscannable 100% of the time. You used protfits didn't you? Protofits doesn't take into account the 10% dampening of the cloak, this brings you down to 14.148, this beats all scanners (the proto gets down to 15 with gallogi lvl 5) Magnus: you'll have 3x the HP of a non-tanked scout And still 40% HP less than even the a badly fitted Assault. Plus you will have sacrificed scan range, scan precision, damage, and speed. No, you still beat the other suits in range, scan precision(can detect undamped amarr/min scouts), faster than that badly fit assault, faster shield regen, free repper, and you are still at the very highest levels of damps in the entire game. This suit did not make a sacrifice to be utterly UNCHALENGED in EWAR. Magnus: you will have a tiny hitbox As do all the scouts. No changes to EWAR will fix that. Doesn't mean it isn't a pretty damn good advantage Magnus: your strafe speed will still be 4.41m/sec, 0nly .5 m/sec less than before, sitll way faster than that assault. A properly fit MN Assault will have 4.77m/s and still have 40% more eHP, and better regen. Sure, if you put on more plates your speed will drop, but you eHP advantage will increase even more. So 40% more HP means 980 HP right? So 280 more eHP means that the lows are all ferroscale plates and one repper and the highs are all shield extenders, these suits do the same damage, move at near the same speed and the assault reps armor a bit faster, but the scout is fully off the tacnet of the assault while seeing the assault through walls 30m away, the scout also can also hack faster, detect undamped min/amarr scouts, dodge WAY more bullets (tiny hitbox) which helps equalize the HP, and can become invisible. Sorry, Your mk.0 is a poor match for this scout. Magnus: 30m is a long range when you fit nothing to that end Indeed it is. But these also are parameters we can tweak without giving Assaults the ability to scan scouts. For example, like I said a lot of times already, buffing the Assaults base profile would help a lot without giving even more suits wallhacks. still need a reason why a 3x complex enhancer assault shouldn't be able to scan an undampened scout Magnus: I cannot believe you think nearly tripling a suits HP, while still being undetectable, fast, invisible, and doing the same amount of damage as a logi/assault does (sans dmg mods) is defensible. Tripling a suits HP? What kind of parameter is that? You can triple the HP of an Assault just as well. You can even quadruple the HP of a Logi easily. How is that a problem when a scout does it? And don't say again that he doesn't have to sacrifice anything, because that is not true. Like I said before: You will be as slow as an Assault, deal less damage, have a **** regen, and still have at least 40% less eHP than an Assault. Can you actually triple an assault's HP while being the very pinnacle of something else at the same time? Can you have a mirade of advantages over other suits all at the same time as tripling an assaults HP? OR does the assault turn into a sentinel without the HMG or resistance bonuses? The logi? It becomes a sentinel when fully tanked, and now can't fit any equipment and easy to spot (bright yellow) and still can't see much and is easy to detect..... it is basically useless. Responses in quote Your example is laughable. The assault will be roughly equal in speed if it sacrifices HP, for that sacrifice, it will be easily detected by the tanked scout, never detect the tanked scout, never be invisible, and NOT do more damage (seriously, I tried your fit, you need all highs/lows for tanking mods for that 40% increase while maintaining the mK.0's base speed.) So you have roughly equivelent movement stats, no EWAR, and have lost the advantage because you will be snuck up on. You loose this engagement 99/100 times, and the scout just beat you at being an assault. Hell even without the EWAR and invisibility, that smaller hitbox will mitigate that 280 HP advantage, which it will recharge faster and sooner (shields) than your assault. Post the fit man. Fixing EWAR
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4785	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:28:00 - [299] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Magnus: You'll be way faster than the assault An invisible Gal scout with 700eHP will move at little more than 7m/s. My Min Assault will out-run and out-strafe that. Magnus: you see the assault coming before and he will never see you, without fitting anything for it If the Assault is stupid enough to never check his corners or too blind to see the purple shimmer, then yes. Magnus: you WILL be invisible to all passive scans Yes and that is good. Damps should beat enhancers, always. Gal with 2x damps beats Am scout with 2x enhancers. Magnus: dodging the proto focused scanner requires you to activate the cloak The margin is small, but even a Gal scout with 2x damps is not unscannable 100% of the time. Magnus: you'll have 3x the HP of a non-tanked scout And still 40% HP less than even the a badly fitted Assault. Plus you will have sacrificed scan range, scan precision, damage, and speed. Magnus: you will have a tiny hitbox As do all the scouts. No changes to EWAR will fix that. Magnus: your strafe speed will still be 4.41m/sec, 0nly .5 m/sec less than before, sitll way faster than that assault. A properly fit MN Assault will have 4.77m/s and still have 40% more eHP, and better regen. Sure, if you put on more plates your speed will drop, but you eHP advantage will increase even more. Magnus: 30m is a long range when you fit nothing to that end Indeed it is. But these also are parameters we can tweak without giving Assaults the ability to scan scouts. For example, like I said a lot of times already, buffing the Assaults base profile would help a lot without giving even more suits wallhacks. Magnus: I cannot believe you think nearly tripling a suits HP, while still being undetectable, fast, invisible, and doing the same amount of damage as a logi/assault does (sans dmg mods) is defensible. Tripling a suits HP? What kind of parameter is that? You can triple the HP of an Assault just as well. You can even quadruple the HP of a Logi easily. How is that a problem when a scout does it? And don't say again that he doesn't have to sacrifice anything, because that is not true. Like I said before: You will be as slow as an Assault, deal less damage, have a **** regen, and still have at least 40% less eHP than an Assault. Well argued. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5869	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:50:00 - [300] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Well argued. Indeed, but to what end? Consider the audience. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1155	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:51:00 - [301] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Jebus May have found a way to make Haerr's cloak nerf work. Would you mind spot-checking this for potential problems? Why are dampners @ 28% on your thing? How did you make your data anonymous? Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5869	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:53:00 - [302] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Jebus May have found a way to make Haerr's cloak nerf work. Would you mind spot-checking this for potential problems? Why are dampners @ 28% on your thing? Also, here is the link to the tool I made, try it out. We're looking to yank cloak's dampening bonus and point it at something else (nerfing scan precision ... so when a scout is cloaked he'll be blind). Also buffed GA/CA Scout racial dampening bonus by 1%. This way, status quo at the baseline is maintained. In case you missed it, we've also worked in the Proto Scanner buff. At 25 dB, it'll ping every Scout who isn't running damps. Edit: The tool looks like fun. It appears to be read-only though. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5869	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:00:00 - [303] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: How did you make your data anonymous? Not sure what you mean here. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1155	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:01:00 - [304] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: How did you make your data anonymous? Not sure what you mean here. Does the document have personal information about the people viewing it? Fixing EWAR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5869	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:02:00 - [305] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: How did you make your data anonymous? Not sure what you mean here. Does the document have personal information about the people viewing it? The icons up at the top right? If a viewer is logged in, it'll display his user name. Otherwise, it'll assign the unauthenticated user an anonymous creature. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1155	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:03:00 - [306] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: How did you make your data anonymous? Not sure what you mean here. Does the document have personal information about the people viewing it? The icons up at the top right? If a viewer is logged in, it'll display his user name. Otherwise, it'll assign the unauthenticated user an anonymous creature. ok, well you need to make a copy for it to work, the dropdowns on the sides have their ranges set 0-4 (unless you can only put 2 or 3 on) Fixing EWAR
Jebus McKing lol Proto 772	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:17:00 - [307] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Jebus May have found a way to make Haerr's cloak nerf work. Would you mind spot-checking this for potential problems? Looks pretty solid so far. There are only 2 things you might want to consider: 1) Buff Logi precision to 42db so that a Logi with 3x precision can scan an Assault with 2x damps. 2) I'm thinking about buffing Focused scanner to 19db. This means that a CA/MN scout can never dodge a GA Logi + Foc scanner. (At least CA scout still has all of its high slots for tanking.) GA scout needs 3x damps, AM scout needs 4x damps. I'm not sure here if I am in favour of the scanner or the scout. On the one hand if we leave it like you initially proposed then MN/AM would already need 3x damps to avoid the GA Logi + Foc, which is quite a commitment. (Not so much for CA/GA which can dodge it with just 2x damps.) On the other hand I kinda somehow like the idea of having one very specialized and situational scanner type that can still scan those scouts. (Except a GA scout with 3x damps, which would then be the only truly 100% invisible scout.) I don't know. What do you think? lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1155	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:20:00 - [308] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Jebus May have found a way to make Haerr's cloak nerf work. Would you mind spot-checking this for potential problems? Looks pretty solid so far. There are only 2 things you might want to consider: 1) Buff Logi precision to 42db so that a Logi with 3x precision can scan an Assault with 2x damps. 2) I'm thinking about buffing Focused scanner to 19db. This means that a CA/MN scout can never dodge a GA Logi + Foc scanner. (At least CA scout still has all of its high slots for tanking.) GA scout needs 3x damps, AM scout needs 4x damps. I'm not sure here if I am in favour of the scanner or the scout. On the one hand if we leave it like you initially proposed then MN/AM would already need 3x damps to avoid the GA Logi + Foc, which is quite a commitment. (Not so much for CA/GA which can dodge it with just 2x damps.) On the other hand I kinda somehow like the idea of having one very specialized and situational scanner type that can still scan those scouts. (Except a GA scout with 3x damps, which would then be the only truly 100% invisible scout.) I don't know. What do you think? You know what you stated is exactly what is written in the OP right? Fixing EWAR
Jebus McKing lol Proto 773	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:30:00 - [309] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: You know what you stated is exactly what is written in the OP right? Dude, what? It's 1:30am so it maybe is too late and I am too tired to find what exactly you are referring to. Would you mind pointing it out for me? Magnus Amadeuss wrote: So I put together a few charts as I did before for swarms (4 missiles for all/increasing damage for lower tiers... yep that was me) and the amarr scout bonus issue (was a while ago). This time it is exploring how EWAR is fundamentally broken right now, and how we could bring it back to balance so that other suits can also be a part of this metagame. Here is a graph of what EWAR looks like now. The (p) stands for precision and the (d) stands for dampening. As you can see, it is quite easy to avoid all scan with minimal sacrifice, and there is no sacrifice great enough to try to keep up. 1) Change a few scan profile/precision numbers. The scout goes to 40/40, logi to 45/45, assault to 50/50, and heavy suits to 55/55. 2) Change precision dampners to mirror the values of precision enhancers. (i.e. cmplx-20%, enhanced-15%, basic-10%) 3) Change amarr precision bonus to 3% per level Doing these changes would alter the above chart from what it is to THIS. Much more balanced, dampening specialized suit can still become fully undetectable, and even an assault can pick up on scouts who don't dampen at all. 4) Change active scanners to mirror the new values, change gallente logi bonus to 3% / level) value/{gal logi value} Proto focused = 20 / {17} Proto = 26 / {22} Advanced = 30 / {25} Standard = 40 / {34} Scanners are now useful for all suits again, but can easily be dampened to not be seen (1 cmplx damp on a sentinel evades the standard scanner on a non-bonused suit) Some examples of the new system. An assault with 1 complex enhancer picks up undampened amarr/minnie scouts, 2 enhancerss picks up the caldari and gallente ones too. Basically assault scouts now have to deal with prepared normal assaults. A logi with 3 cmplx dampners picks up all amarr/minnie scouts with two dampners and cal/gal with 1 dampner. Useful for watching a squads back. A crazy caldari sentinel that fits all complex precision enhancers could pick up undamned scouts (and even amarr/minnie scouts who go with only 1 damp). I would say that is one heck of a sacrifice, but it could potentially pay off. EDIT: Changed proto active non-focused scanner to not pick up minmatar/amarr scouts when they fit to avoid scans. EDIT: Update OP Remember, this will allow scout to remain the very best at any single category of EWAR, but now they have to make trade-offs like every other suit in the game. EWAR should never be a go scout or go home proposition. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5870	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:41:00 - [310] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 1. You really need to stop acting like you give one bit of a care about EWAR interplay. You care about scout superiority and that is it, this has been proven time and again, so please for everyone's sanity stop. 2. I mean are you freaking kidding with those numbers? OH good, now dampeners are even more powerful than precision!! 3. lol @ that sheet. Complete garbage. 1. Ad Hominem 2. You bet, and EWAR baseline is intact. Does it make you angry? 3. Which parts aren't balanced? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1155	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:47:00 - [311] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 1. You really need to stop acting like you give one bit of a care about EWAR interplay. You care about scout superiority and that is it, this has been proven time and again, so please for everyone's sanity stop. 2. I mean are you freaking kidding with those numbers? OH good, now dampeners are even more powerful than precision!! 3. lol @ that sheet. Complete garbage. 1. Ad Hominem 2. You bet, and EWAR baseline is intact. Does it make you angry? 3. Which parts aren't balanced? 1. is not an ad hominem, you have proven that you have absolutely no interest in balance, that you see 1 damp slot on a scout as a sufficient sacrifice to never worry about medium suit ewar, and that you have no interest in ewar outside of scouts. This is 100% provable in this thread alone. 2. IS trolling, pretty sure it is against the forum rules. 3. 28% damps versus 20% enhancers. The counter to damps are enhancers. you want to make the counter only 72% as effective. That is a joke right? I mean no one is really that stupid are they? Fixing EWAR
Jebus McKing lol Proto 773	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:54:00 - [312] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 3. 28% damps versus 20% enhancers. The counter to damps are enhancers. you want to make the counter only 72% as effective. That is a joke right? I mean no one is really that stupid are they? I think we fundamentally disagree on the premise. Precision enhancers give you the ability to see enemies through walls (wallhack) and on your radar. They give you an advantage over other players. And profile dampeners are the counters to precision enhancers. Not the other way around. They enable you to avoid a disadvantage, they don't give you an advantage. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5872	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:57:00 - [313] - Quote Let's not forget that the advantage is shared among squadmates. In Magnus terms, that's a 600% benefit ... 100% of the time! :: Flails About, Moaning :: Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1156	Posted - 2014.10.14 00:28:00 - [314] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 3. 28% damps versus 20% enhancers. The counter to damps are enhancers. you want to make the counter only 72% as effective. That is a joke right? I mean no one is really that stupid are they? I think we fundamentally disagree on the premise. Precision enhancers give you the ability to see enemies through walls (wallhack) and on your radar. They give you an advantage over other players. And profile dampeners are the counters to precision enhancers. Not the other way around. They enable you to avoid a disadvantage, they don't give you an advantage. I could see you premise, although I think t should be a tight race. Given that dampeners start 12.75% ahead of where precision enhancers do from the word go, it just makes absolutely no sense for them to be even further hobbled. The only concievable reason to do such a thing is if you don't care about interplay, and you want all EWAR interaction to end at 2 modules every time. That is boring, binary, and bad design. Also, what is the counter to cloaks then.. also precision enhancers right? Adipem Nothi wrote: Let's not forget ... That advantage is shared among squadmates. In Magnus terms, that's a 600% benefit ... 100% of the time! Dampening doesn't have any 600% benefits! How is that fair!? :: Flailing! :: Wow, every time I don't think my opinion of you could drop anymore... you type something like that.... Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1157	Posted - 2014.10.14 05:08:00 - [315] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: You know what you stated is exactly what is written in the OP right? Dude, what? It's 1:30am so it maybe is too late and I am too tired to find what exactly you are referring to. Would you mind pointing it out for me? Magnus Amadeuss wrote: So I put together a few charts as I did before for swarms (4 missiles for all/increasing damage for lower tiers... yep that was me) and the amarr scout bonus issue (was a while ago). This time it is exploring how EWAR is fundamentally broken right now, and how we could bring it back to balance so that other suits can also be a part of this metagame. Here is a graph of what EWAR looks like now. The (p) stands for precision and the (d) stands for dampening. As you can see, it is quite easy to avoid all scan with minimal sacrifice, and there is no sacrifice great enough to try to keep up. 1) Change a few scan profile/precision numbers. The scout goes to 40/40, logi to 45/45, assault to 50/50, and heavy suits to 55/55. 2) Change precision dampners to mirror the values of precision enhancers. (i.e. cmplx-20%, enhanced-15%, basic-10%) 3) Change amarr precision bonus to 3% per level Doing these changes would alter the above chart from what it is to THIS. Much more balanced, dampening specialized suit can still become fully undetectable, and even an assault can pick up on scouts who don't dampen at all. 4) Change active scanners to mirror the new values, change gallente logi bonus to 3% / level) value/{gal logi value} Proto focused = 20 / {17} Proto = 26 / {22} Advanced = 30 / {25} Standard = 40 / {34} Scanners are now useful for all suits again, but can easily be dampened to not be seen (1 cmplx damp on a sentinel evades the standard scanner on a non-bonused suit) Some examples of the new system. An assault with 1 complex enhancer picks up undampened amarr/minnie scouts, 2 enhancerss picks up the caldari and gallente ones too. Basically assault scouts now have to deal with prepared normal assaults. A logi with 3 cmplx dampners picks up all amarr/minnie scouts with two dampners and cal/gal with 1 dampner. Useful for watching a squads back. A crazy caldari sentinel that fits all complex precision enhancers could pick up undamned scouts (and even amarr/minnie scouts who go with only 1 damp). I would say that is one heck of a sacrifice, but it could potentially pay off. EDIT: Changed proto active non-focused scanner to not pick up minmatar/amarr scouts when they fit to avoid scans. EDIT: Update OP Remember, this will allow scout to remain the very best at any single category of EWAR, but now they have to make trade-offs like every other suit in the game. EWAR should never be a go scout or go home proposition. If you check the values of the focused scanner I proposed, it defeats the amarr/minmatar/caldari suits even when fully damped, but the gallente suit (the one with dampening as a primary bonus) can sneak by it. The rest of the interplay is super dependant on fit. What seems to occur quite often though is that you may be able to passive pick up a scout without the cloak on, but when you turn on the cloak it disappears. I think that would be just REALLY cool interplay. Also, scouts always can win the EWAR play in the end, but at least there is some type of interaction from medium suits in this regard. It really does open up a ton of fits and counter-fits. For some reason though, apparently it is 2 damps on a scout and EWAR is done. Boring, lifeless, just pathetic. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1157	Posted - 2014.10.14 05:36:00 - [316] - Quote See, before the scout brigade took this thread over I had a simple premise: 1) interesting interplay for ewar between all suits and 2) scanners that are useful It was so simple to; 1 precision enhancer allows you to see an undampened suit 1 class smaller, 1 damp trumps 1 precision enhancer. If you lined up the suits from smallest to biggest it would go: scout logi assault commando sentinel it other words enhancers required = dampeners +1 with the intitial condition of enhancers required = suit size +1 apparently this is insane, I should never mention it, and how dare I even think of a fair system. Anyone who knows my history knows I do not have a suit bias, I use them all and use them all often. I would hope that whoever ends up reading this mess of a thread would also consider what the poster's intentions are. Fixing EWAR
Jebus McKing lol Proto 778	Posted - 2014.10.14 10:17:00 - [317] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 1) interesting interplay for ewar between all suits With your system, a Logi with 3x enhancers gives his whole squad the ability to scan AM/MN scouts if they don't completely ruin their fitting by using 3x damps. What you propose is that X enhancers give you and your whole squad an advantage of X, and the counter, which only works on a personal level, has to be X+1 and you don't gain anything except avoiding one disadvantage while making yourself an easier target because you are using damps instead of plates. With your system, how is an Assault ever going to be able to hide from MN/CA scouts (the non-precision specialized suits) with precision enhancers? That's right, they CANNOT. Even an Assault with 4x damps can't beat a MN/CA scout with 2x enhancers!!! How is that interesting interplay? Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 2) scanners that are useful Scanners are useful RIGHT NOW. A proto scanner (WITHOUT GA Logi bonus) can already scan undampened MN/AM scouts (with max level dampening skills), Assaults/Logis that don't have at least 2x damps, and Sentinels/Commandos that don't have at least 3x damps. That is already 18 out of 20 of the specialized suits, even if they use a considerable amount of slots for dampening. And the focused scanner? Assaults, Logis, Sentinels, and Commandos CANNOT dodge it, ever, even without the GA Logi bonus, RIGHT NOW. And focused scanner with GA Logi bonus? CA/GA scouts already either need 3x damps, or 2x damps +cloak , and AM/MN need either 5x damps (!!!) or 3x damps +cloak. I'm sorry but I just don't see how buffing precision/scanning is going to improve balance / fix EWAR / create interesting interplay at all. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1157	Posted - 2014.10.14 14:24:00 - [318] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: With your system, a Logi with 3x enhancers gives his whole squad the ability to scan AM/MN scouts if they don't completely ruin their fitting by using 3x damps. What you propose is that X enhancers give you and your whole squad an advantage of X, and the counter, which only works on a personal level, has to be X+1 and you don't gain anything except avoiding one disadvantage while making yourself an easier target because you are using damps instead of plates. Part of the reason why shared passive scan is b.s. and it needs to go. 1 suit getting free always on intel is, sharing it with the squad is 10 times worse than spinner active scanners ever were. That is called permascan, and it is B.S. gameplay. The suit being scanner doesn't even get notified that they are being scanned. Basically everyone in your squad is now a scout permanently. Jebus McKing wrote: With your system, how is an Assault ever going to be able to hide from MN/CA scouts (the non-precision specialized suits) with precision enhancers? That's right, they CANNOT. Even an Assault with 4x damps can't beat a MN/CA scout with 2x enhancers!!! How is that interesting interplay? Right now that same assault is pictked up by an amarr scout with 1x CPE, this same assault who sacrificed 4x lowslots shows up on 6 peoples screens. Jebus McKing wrote: Scanners are useful RIGHT NOW. A proto scanner (WITHOUT GA Logi bonus) can already scan undampened MN/AM scouts (with max level dampening skills), Assaults/Logis that don't have at least 2x damps, and Sentinels/Commandos that don't have at least 3x damps. That is already 18 out of 20 of the specialized suits, even if they use a considerable amount of slots for dampening. And the focused scanner? Assaults, Logis, Sentinels, and Commandos CANNOT dodge it, ever, even without the GA Logi bonus, RIGHT NOW. And focused scanner with GA Logi bonus? CA/GA scouts already either need 3x damps, or 2x damps +cloak , and AM/MN need either 5x damps (!!!) or 3x damps +cloak. I'm sorry but I just don't see how buffing precision/scanning is going to improve balance / fix EWAR / create interesting interplay at all. I never EVER seen a "you have been scanned" anymore... ever. The only time anyone attempts to scan me anymore is with a vehicle. No scanners are just crap right now and no one uses them. The reason? Why equip something that is limited in field of view, is only working a faction of the time, requires you to put away your weapon, and is not very strong when you can just fit a scout and suffer none of those problems? On top of all of that, using a scout no one knows you have scanned them, and your squad always has all of the same intel you do. Basically you give your squad of sentinels or whatever scout vision, permanently. Fixing EWAR
Jebus McKing lol Proto 780	Posted - 2014.10.14 15:12:00 - [319] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Part of the reason why shared passive scan is b.s. and it needs to go. 1 suit getting free always on intel is, sharing it with the squad is 10 times worse than spinner active scanners ever were. That is called permascan, and it is B.S. gameplay. The suit being scanner doesn't even get notified that they are being scanned. Basically everyone in your squad is now a scout permanently. Without shared passives your system is even more flawed! I'm telling you what is going to happen: With your system you are going to fit your Assault with 3x PEnhancers to scan scouts. Then you realize that you only have 15m range so by the time the scout shows up on your radar you are already inside the shotguns optimal range. Then you equip range amps, and you have to use 2 of them to even get to 30m range. You will then notice that you have the eHP of a tanked scout, but are slower, have ** regen, and a bigger hitbox. And then what? You gonna come to the forums and whine until Assaults get a scan range buff? Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Right now that same assault is pictked up by an amarr scout with 1x CPE, this same assault who sacrificed 4x lowslots shows up on 6 peoples screens. And your solution is to nerf dampeners? Really?! Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I never EVER seen a "you have been scanned" anymore... ever. The only time anyone attempts to scan me anymore is with a vehicle. No scanners are just crap right now and no one uses them. The reason? Why equip something that is limited in field of view, is only working a faction of the time, requires you to put away your weapon, and is not very strong when you can just fit a scout and suffer none of those problems? WHAT?! I think you are playing a different game than I do. A GA Logi with a proto scanner can scan close to 90% of suits. Most pubstomp squads I come across have at least one logi with a scanner. Assaults, Logis, Sentinels, and Commandos literally have no chance to dodge a GA Logi with proto scanner. And on top you can also scan all of the enemy equipment, including remotes. Why would you NOT use a scanner?! Magnus Amadeuss wrote:** Right now the system is broke, if you are not in a dampened scout you ARE permascanned to up to 6 people at pretty much all times without even knowing it, with absolutely no way to counter it. The only reason people aren't super upset is because there isn't a notification at the top of the screen, but that is actually even worse. And again your solution to being permascanned if not in a scout suit is NERFING DAMPS AND BUFFING SCANS?! If you are so upset about being permascanned then why do you want to make it even harder to avoid that? I really don't get it. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Finn Colman Immortal Guides 46	Posted - 2014.10.14 16:05:00 - [320] - Quote I haven't read most of the replies on this topic, but my issue with scans is that my Min scout's profile (w/o dampening) is already low enough that there is an allowable risk in how few suits can detect it. The little Min with the little voice.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 383	Posted - 2014.10.14 17:54:00 - [321] - Quote The longer this thread goes, the farther I move from the opinion that the only adjustment scouts need is removal of one equipment slot and closer to the opinion of F scouts, nerf them on all points. Speed, profile, cpu/pg, slots and weapon access. The blatant self-service from the scouting "community" when supposedly discussing "balancing" in any thread that attempts to do so is disgusting. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 383	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:04:00 - [322] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: So I put together a few charts as I did before for swarms (4 missiles for all/increasing damage for lower tiers... yep that was me) and the amarr scout bonus issue (was a while ago). This time it is exploring how EWAR is fundamentally broken right now, and how we could bring it back to balance so that other suits can also be a part of this metagame. Here is a graph of what EWAR looks like now. The (p) stands for precision and the (d) stands for dampening. As you can see, it is quite easy to avoid all scan with minimal sacrifice, and there is no sacrifice great enough to try to keep up. 1) Change a few scan profile/precision numbers. The scout goes to 40/40, logi to 45/45, assault to 50/50, and heavy suits to 55/55. 2) Change precision dampners to mirror the values of precision enhancers. (i.e. cmplx-20%, enhanced-15%, basic-10%) 3) Change amarr precision bonus to 3% per level Doing these changes would alter the above chart from what it is to THIS. Much more balanced, dampening specialized suit can still become fully undetectable, and even an assault can pick up on scouts who don't dampen at all. 4) Change active scanners to mirror the new values, change gallente logi bonus to 3% / level) value/{gal logi value} Proto focused = 20 / {17} Proto = 26 / {22} Advanced = 30 / {25} Standard = 40 / {34} Scanners are now useful for all suits again, but can easily be dampened to not be seen (1 cmplx damp on a sentinel evades the standard scanner on a non-bonused suit) Some examples of the new system. An assault with 1 complex enhancer picks up undampened amarr/minnie scouts, 2 enhancerss picks up the caldari and gallente ones too. Basically assault scouts now have to deal with prepared normal assaults. A logi with 3 cmplx dampners picks up all amarr/minnie scouts with two dampners and cal/gal with 1 dampner. Useful for watching a squads back. A crazy caldari sentinel that fits all complex precision enhancers could pick up undamned scouts (and even amarr/minnie scouts who go with only 1 damp). I would say that is one heck of a sacrifice, but it could potentially pay off. EDIT: Changed proto active non-focused scanner to not pick up minmatar/amarr scouts when they fit to avoid scans. EDIT: Update OP Remember, this will allow scout to remain the very best at any single category of EWAR, but now they have to make trade-offs like every other suit in the game. EWAR should never be a go scout or go home proposition. we dont need to "fix" ewar.. we just need to nerf scouts and buff active scanners ~~Dude. Pretty please with sugar on top. Don't help~~. My bad, you are right, I am wrong. Carry on. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Finn Colman Immortal Guides 47	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:10:00 - [323] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: The longer this thread goes, the farther I move from the opinion that the only adjustment scouts need is removal of one equipment slot and closer to the opinion of F scouts, nerf them on all points. Speed, profile, cpu/pg, slots and weapon access. The blatant self-service when supposedly discussing "balancing" in any thread that attempts to do so is disgusting. I understand where you're coming from in terms of the biased statements of many "balance" discussions. It is kind of funny that you post your reply after I point out my disappointment in the fact that when I use my scout suit (my primary suit) I slip under most passive scans, with other scouts being the primary group to spot me. Honestly, a logi at least should be able to catch my undamped Min scout. Also, the binary (yes/no, true/false) nature of the scan is harmful to gameplay, there should be at least a 5% chance of getting caught on radar no matter what the profile and precision of the two suits (or 1-16 suits, and one scanner involved); as well as at least a 5% chance of avoiding a scan. The little Min with the little voice.
Jebus McKing lol Proto 780	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:26:00 - [324] - Quote Finn Colman wrote: a logi at least should be able to catch my undamped Min scout. Any Logi with 1x precision enhancer can scan an undampened, uncloaked MN/AM scout. Make it 2x precision enhancers and the Logi can even scan them while cloaked. Make it 3x precision and AM/MN scouts will need 2x damps to avoid the Logi scans while not cloaked. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 383	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:33:00 - [325] - Quote Finn Colman wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: The longer this thread goes, the farther I move from the opinion that the only adjustment scouts need is removal of one equipment slot and closer to the opinion of F scouts, nerf them on all points. Speed, profile, cpu/pg, slots and weapon access. The blatant self-service when supposedly discussing "balancing" in any thread that attempts to do so is disgusting. I understand where you're coming from in terms of the biased statements of many "balance" discussions. It is kind of funny that you post your reply after I point out my disappointment in the fact that when I use my scout suit (my primary suit) I slip under most passive scans, with other scouts being the primary group to spot me. Honestly, a logi at least should be able to catch my undamped Min scout. Also, the binary (yes/no, true/false) nature of the scan is harmful to gameplay, there should be at least a 5% chance of getting caught on radar no matter what the profile and precision of the two suits (or 1-16 suits, and one scanner involved); as well as at least a 5% chance of avoiding a scan. Yeah, I skimmed the last couple pages and its just more of the same from single-class/role protectionists and I'm frankly sick of it. Its horrible that for any sort of moderate idea to be considered it has be the product of an extremist perspective debate since extremism almost never resolves itself with moderate compromise and the whole while during the process the extremest values remain and when the debate ISN'T resolved in the middle, one extreme or the other becomes and entrenches as the accepted norm. Nerf scouts. On every stat. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Finn Colman Immortal Guides 47	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:33:00 - [326] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Finn Colman wrote: a logi at least should be able to catch my undamped Min scout. Any Logi with 1x precision enhancer can scan an undampened, uncloaked MN/AM scout. Make it 2x precision enhancers and the Logi can even scan them while cloaked. Make it 3x precision and AM/MN scouts will need 2x damps to avoid the Logi scans while not cloaked. Sorry, I concede that my information may be outdated and wrong. Last I checked was a while ago (before cloaks were implemented), and I only really checked with a Min logi. The numbers may well have changed since then, but at the time I was deciding whether or not to invest in precision enhancers, and after doing the math, found extremely little reason to do so. The little Min with the little voice.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 383	Posted - 2014.10.14 18:43:00 - [327] - Quote Finn Colman wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: Finn Colman wrote: a logi at least should be able to catch my undamped Min scout. Any Logi with 1x precision enhancer can scan an undampened, uncloaked MN/AM scout. Make it 2x precision enhancers and the Logi can even scan them while cloaked. Make it 3x precision and AM/MN scouts will need 2x damps to avoid the Logi scans while not cloaked. Sorry, I concede that my information may be outdated and wrong. Last I checked was a while ago (before cloaks were implemented), and I only really checked with a Min logi. The numbers may well have changed since then, but at the time I was deciding whether or not to invest in precision enhancers, and after doing the math, found extremely little reason to do so. The simple fact that keeps being swept aside about the passive scan aspect is that even with stacked prec theres no enhancement to range , only precision, so even if that logi (or other medium) detects a non or single damped scout that scout is already on top of that medium, with a faster movement speed, smaller hitbox, light or sidearm weapon to use AND mix n match equipment to use. EDIT: AND odds are good the scout is almost equal in hp, since the medium had to drop to stack the other mods, AND the scout will ALWAYS have the medium passively lit since the base profile is signifcantly lower. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Jebus McKing lol Proto 780	Posted - 2014.10.14 20:21:00 - [328] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: The simple fact that keeps being swept aside about the passive scan aspect is that even with stacked prec theres no enhancement to range , only precision, so even if that logi (or other medium) detects a non or single damped scout that scout is already on top of that medium, with a faster movement speed, smaller hitbox, light or sidearm weapon to use AND mix n match equipment to use. EDIT: AND odds are good the scout is almost equal in hp, since the medium had to drop to stack the other mods, AND the scout will ALWAYS have the medium passively lit since the base profile is signifcantly lower. Yes, and the fact that the other 5 assaults in that Logis squad have to sacrifice absolutely NOTHING and still receive all scanning bonuses is also too easily forgotten most of the time. I don't want to defend scouts. I too think the gap between scouts EWAR and mediums EWAR is too big. But what I hate the most about scouts is that their precision is too good and that there is no way to avoid a scouts (or GA Logis) wallhack without ruining a fit. And that is exactly the reason why I despise the idea of buffing precision even further. Giving more suits wallhacks cannot be the solution. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 385	Posted - 2014.10.14 20:54:00 - [329] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: The simple fact that keeps being swept aside about the passive scan aspect is that even with stacked prec theres no enhancement to range , only precision, so even if that logi (or other medium) detects a non or single damped scout that scout is already on top of that medium, with a faster movement speed, smaller hitbox, light or sidearm weapon to use AND mix n match equipment to use. EDIT: AND odds are good the scout is almost equal in hp, since the medium had to drop to stack the other mods, AND the scout will ALWAYS have the medium passively lit since the base profile is signifcantly lower. Yes, and the fact that the other 5 assaults in that Logis squad have to sacrifice absolutely NOTHING and still receive all scanning bonuses is also too easily forgotten most of the time. I don't want to defend scouts. I too think the gap between scouts EWAR and mediums EWAR is too big. But what I hate the most about scouts is that their precision is too good and that there is no way to avoid a scouts (or GA Logis) wallhack without ruining a fit. And that is exactly the reason why I despise the idea of buffing precision even further. Giving more suits wallhacks cannot be the solution. The other 5 assaults receive jack and **** once they move outside of the logis detection range/their tacnet overlap area. To keep any sort of group "wallhack" they would have to stay clustered less than 10m from the logi. 10m being the average running distance a second for any of the scouts. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 385	Posted - 2014.10.14 20:56:00 - [330] - Quote Nerf scouts. All stats. All levels. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

mollerz 5558	Posted - 2014.10.14 21:15:00 - [331] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Nerf scouts. All stats. All levels. Your sig is so ironic. I'm seriously fukn serious
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 385	Posted - 2014.10.14 23:04:00 - [332] - Quote mollerz wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Nerf scouts. All stats. All levels. Your sig is so ironic. You like that? Words to live by. The ~~stru~~giggle is real. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1157	Posted - 2014.10.14 23:14:00 - [333] - Quote In this thread, scouts complain about permascan while they permascan. Maybe another poster in this thread had the right answer: Scouts should get the best profiles Mediums get should get the best precision Heavies should get the best range IDK, something needs to happen. Having spin-scanners was broken, everyone admits that. Scouts are spin-scanners on steroids. Fixing EWAR
mollerz 5560	Posted - 2014.10.14 23:22:00 - [334] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: mollerz wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Nerf scouts. All stats. All levels. Your sig is so ironic. You like that? Words to live by. The ~~stru~~giggle is real. It's just that it comes off as hypocritical. Your sig says one thing, yet you act in contrary fashion to it. Maybe you should change your sig so it is more honest. I'm seriously fukn serious
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2014.10.14 23:30:00 - [335] - Quote mollerz wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: mollerz wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Nerf scouts. All stats. All levels. Your sig is so ironic. You like that? Words to live by. The ~~stru~~giggle is real. It's just that it comes off as hypocritical. Your sig says one thing, yet you act in contrary fashion to it. Maybe you should change your sig so it is more honest. Meh, not a bad point really. My sig dates back several months whereas my current demeanor about scouts is a much more recent development. Ironically as well, however, I in realizing my current demeanor see the signature as actually more fitting now. If anything, when seen in the wider context, the signature contributes to my honesty. Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2014.10.14 23:33:00 - [336] - Quote I tried fair and moderate but received and observed nothing but bs for the effort so, f it. Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2577	Posted - 2014.10.15 00:40:00 - [337] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Nerf scouts. All stats. All levels. Reads post Reads Sig Chokes and dies laughing "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2577	Posted - 2014.10.15 00:49:00 - [338] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: In this thread, scouts complain about permascan while they permascan. Maybe another poster in this thread had the right answer: Scouts should get the best profiles Mediums get should get the best precision Heavies should get the best range IDK, something needs to happen. Having spin-scanners was broken, everyone admits that. Scouts are spin-scanners on steroids. And your proposal turns every single med frame in the game into spin scanners, with the only suits able to participate in eWAR while remaining competitive are mediums. 2 less slots and 1/3 the HP on a scout suit as well as no offensive bonuses... If this was put into play, there'd be literally no reason to run any scout of any kind whatsoever, in any situation at all. But, thats what I assume you're going for, so if I were in the butthurt "scounts izzz oPEEEEEEE dooooeeeee" group, Id give you a +1. However, my IQ is above 70, and Iv actually played every role in the game, (albeit not on this char), therefore, I understand that scouts are not overpowered in the least. Eyes are overpowered. Id recommend using them. Your brain is also, while it may not appear so, very powerful if you use it. So use it now and think. And when you're done thinking and realize the absolutely moronic implications of your thread (which would, by the way, lead to an even larger scout buff than 1.8, simply because we would be worse than any suit in the history of the game), delete it, and hope that Rattati will be kind enough to remove it from these forums forever. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2579	Posted - 2014.10.15 00:53:00 - [339] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I tried fair and moderate but received and observed nothing but bs for the effort so, f it. Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. What a well constructed and thought out argument! Your use of facts and statistics as well as all that great evidence really drives your point home! This structurally sound and strong argument is certain to get people to argue on a more intellectual level about this amazing and complex idea that you have brought forth! Yet, it seems to miss something. Something like....like...oh I know. Everything that I just mentioned. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1159	Posted - 2014.10.15 00:53:00 - [340] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: In this thread, scouts complain about permascan while they permascan. Maybe another poster in this thread had the right answer: Scouts should get the best profiles Mediums get should get the best precision Heavies should get the best range IDK, something needs to happen. Having spin-scanners was broken, everyone admits that. Scouts are spin-scanners on steroids. And your proposal turns every single med frame in the game into spin scanners, with the only suits able to participate in eWAR while remaining competitive are mediums. 2 less slots and 1/3 the HP on a scout suit as well as no offensive bonuses... If this was put into play, there'd be literally no reason to run any scout of any kind whatsoever, in any situation at all. But, thats what I assume you're going for, so if I were in the butthurt "scounts izzz oPEEEEEEE dooooeeeee" group, Id give you a +1. However, my IQ is above 70, and Iv actually played every role in the game, (albeit not on this char), therefore, I understand that scouts are not overpowered in the least. Eyes are overpowered. Id recommend using them. Your brain is also, while it may not appear so, very powerful if you use it. So use it now and think. And when you're done thinking and realize the absolutely moronic implications of your thread (which would, by the way, lead to an even larger scout buff than 1.8, simply because we would be worse than any suit in the history of the game), delete it, and hope that Rattati will be kind enough to remove it from these forums forever. Lol, says the guy who thought the original amarr scout was "just fine" and that the other scouts were "also fine." You can see yourself to the door, but thanks for stopping by. Or do you want to continue and I can start linking older posts of yours? Also thanks for not addressing that scouts a 10 times worse than perma-active scanners ever were. Fixing EWAR

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2579	Posted - 2014.10.15 00:59:00 - [341] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: In this thread, scouts complain about permascan while they permascan. Maybe another poster in this thread had the right answer: Scouts should get the best profiles Mediums get should get the best precision Heavies should get the best range IDK, something needs to happen. Having spin-scanners was broken, everyone admits that. Scouts are spin-scanners on steroids. And your proposal turns every single med frame in the game into spin scanners, with the only suits able to participate in eWAR while remaining competitive are mediums. 2 less slots and 1/3 the HP on a scout suit as well as no offensive bonuses... If this was put into play, there'd be literally no reason to run any scout of any kind whatsoever, in any situation at all. But, thats what I assume you're going for, so if I were in the butthurt "scounts izzz oPEEEEEEE dooooeeeee" group, Id give you a +1. However, my IQ is above 70, and Iv actually played every role in the game, (albeit not on this char), therefore, I understand that scouts are not overpowered in the least. Eyes are overpowered. Id recommend using them. Your brain is also, while it may not appear so, very powerful if you use it. So use it now and think. And when you're done thinking and realize the absolutely moronic implications of your thread (which would, by the way, lead to an even larger scout buff than 1.8, simply because we would be worse than any suit in the history of the game), delete it, and hope that Rattati will be kind enough to remove it from these forums forever. Also thanks for not addressing that scouts a 10 times worse than perma-active scanners ever were. Lol, says the guy who thought the original amarr scout was "just fine" and that the other scouts were "also fine." You can see yourself to the door, but thanks for stopping by. Or do you want to continue and I can start linking older posts of yours? I dont understand how 30 meter radius of scans catching undampened suits requiring the use of module slots as well as the weakest (HP wise) suit in the game, versus 200 meters of catching everyone except scouts with 2 complex dampeners (back before we actually had slots) and lighting them all up for your entire team simply by using one equipment slot is even a supportable argument for the latter. But its ok. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1160	Posted - 2014.10.15 02:56:00 - [342] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: In this thread, scouts complain about permascan while they permascan. Maybe another poster in this thread had the right answer: Scouts should get the best profiles Mediums get should get the best precision Heavies should get the best range IDK, something needs to happen. Having spin-scanners was broken, everyone admits that. Scouts are spin-scanners on steroids. And your proposal turns every single med frame in the game into spin scanners, with the only suits able to participate in eWAR while remaining competitive are mediums. 2 less slots and 1/3 the HP on a scout suit as well as no offensive bonuses... If this was put into play, there'd be literally no reason to run any scout of any kind whatsoever, in any situation at all. But, thats what I assume you're going for, so if I were in the butthurt "scounts izzz oPEEEEEEE dooooeeeee" group, Id give you a +1. However, my IQ is above 70, and Iv actually played every role in the game, (albeit not on this char), therefore, I understand that scouts are not overpowered in the least. Eyes are overpowered. Id recommend using them. Your brain is also, while it may not appear so, very powerful if you use it. So use it now and think. And when you're done thinking and realize the absolutely moronic implications of your thread (which would, by the way, lead to an even larger scout buff than 1.8, simply because we would be worse than any suit in the history of the game), delete it, and hope that Rattati will be kind enough to remove it from these forums forever. Also thanks for not addressing that scouts a 10 times worse than perma-active scanners ever were. Lol, says the guy who thought the original amarr scout was "just fine" and that the other scouts were "also fine." You can see yourself to the door, but thanks for stopping by. Or do you want to continue and I can start linking older posts of yours? I dont understand how 30 meter radius of scans catching undampened suits requiring the use of module slots as well as the weakest (HP wise) suit in the game, versus 200 meters of catching everyone except scouts with 2 complex dampeners (back before we actually had slots) and lighting them all up for your entire team simply by using one equipment slot is even a supportable argument for the latter. But its ok. Would you Like some math to go with that? Because it is there... Here lets run it down so your "above 70 IQ" can get it. Proto Flux active scanner 22-28 db scan stregnth ON for 26.6% of the time Player is defenseless while scanning 200m x 90 degree CONE (~99,000 cubic meters) Provides counter intel (the scanned/notscanned messeges) shared with squad vs. Scout passive scan 18-36 db On 100% of the time Player can fire/cloak/heal/revive/run and scan at the same tiem 30-90 meter sphere (up to 381,000 cubic meters) Provides no counter intel shared with squad So which one is more powerful again? Fixing EWAR
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2581	Posted - 2014.10.15 03:31:00 - [343] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Also thanks for not addressing that scouts a 10 times worse than perma-active scanners ever were. Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Would you Like some math to go with that? Because it is there... Here lets run it down so your "above 70 IQ" can get it. Proto Flux active scanner 21-28 db scan stregnth ( 1 damp on a cal/gallente assault easily dodges this, two for min/amarr) ON for 26.6% of the time Player is defenseless while scanning 200m x 90 degree CONE (~99,000 cubic meters) Provides counter intel (the scanned/notscanned messeges) shared with squad vs. Scout passive scan 18-36 db (requires 2 damps for gallente/caldari, 3 damps for amarr/minmatar) On 100% of the time Player can fire/cloak/heal/revive/run and scan at the same tiem 30-90 meter sphere (up to 381,000 cubic meters) Provides no counter intel shared with squad So which one is more powerful again? NOTE* I have all amarrian suits fully maxed out, with fully maxxed dropsuit upgrades (aside from shields) and ALMOST every non-side-arm weapon to proficiency lvl 3. I play all roles as well...often changing up the roles based upon the battle. Im not talking about the currently underpowered iteration of active scanners. Im talking about the ones we were referring to when you said perma scan. When you could run two focused active scanners on your slayer logi of choice, you got perma scan of everything, all the time. Your argument boils down to this-- You-X is greater than Y, and its unfair! I have anecdotal evidence completely based on my personal bias to back this up! Me-No Magnus. Y is greater than X. Here are some facts. You-No, thats not true. Z is greater than X because of these facts (insert rather rational deductions and/or facts here) Me-We weren't arguing about Z, Magnus. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1160	Posted - 2014.10.15 04:41:00 - [344] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Also thanks for not addressing that scouts a 10 times worse than perma-active scanners ever were. Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Would you Like some math to go with that? Because it is there... Here lets run it down so your "above 70 IQ" can get it. Proto Flux active scanner 21-28 db scan stregnth ( 1 damp on a cal/gallente assault easily dodges this, two for min/amarr) ON for 26.6% of the time Player is defenseless while scanning 200m x 90 degree CONE (~99,000 cubic meters) Provides counter intel (the scanned/notscanned messeges) shared with squad vs. Scout passive scan 18-36 db (requires 2 damps for gallente/caldari, 3 damps for amarr/minmatar) On 100% of the time Player can fire/cloak/heal/revive/run and scan at the same tiem 30-90 meter sphere (up to 381,000 cubic meters) Provides no counter intel shared with squad So which one is more powerful again? NOTE* I have all amarrian suits fully maxed out, with fully maxxed dropsuit upgrades (aside from shields) and ALMOST every non-side-arm weapon to proficiency lvl 3. I play all roles as well...often changing up the roles based upon the battle. Im not talking about the currently underpowered iteration of active scanners. Im talking about the ones we were referring to when you said perma scan. When you could run two focused active scanners on your slayer logi of choice, you got perma scan of everything, all the time. Your argument boils down to this-- You-X is greater than Y, and its unfair! I have anecdotal evidence completely based on my personal bias to back this up! Me-No Magnus. Y is greater than X. Here are some facts. You-No, thats not true. Z is greater than X because of these facts (insert rather rational deductions and/or facts here) Me-We weren't arguing about Z, Magnus. #1) Pretty sure you are the same person as Adipem Nothi, pretty sure. Adipem claimed earlier that I had a back and forth with him/her during the 1.8 amarr scout debate. The only person who was there from that thread is you. #2) Adipem Nothi has disappeared, you remain. The Adipem Nothi person would not leave this. #3) It would make sense if one person was obsessed enough to shut down any talk about balancing their crutch that they would use multiple accounts/characters to stonewall a reasonable debate All of that theory crafting and supposition aside, No to your whole response. I have proven that your arithmetic sucks earlier, also that you think 2 damps whould make a scout immune to all EWAR interplay while being able to conduct more of it itself. The only other history I have with you is of you defending the 1.8 scouts as balanced (lol) and of the amarr 1.8 bonus as also balanced... just goes to show your history on balancing opinions. My simple proposition is that scouts are soo good at EWAR that they make the entire EWAR metagame exclusionary, basically go scout or go home. I proposed this idea as a way to make it so that other suits (namely assaults) can detect scouts who only put on 1 token damp with proto cloak ( which no non-scout suit can do passively). Throughout the course of this thread, I have made certain other discoveries, like: A) Large (3%+) module bonuses are completely broken. If you make a suit that has that large of a bonus to a module... either that module becomes overpowered on the bonused suit (like damps on gallente scout) or just completely useless on the rest of the suits (like the active scanners are without the gallogi). B) Scouts are basically between 3-4 times more powerful than pre-nerf active scanners as far as detection goes. It is funny, tons of scouts complained about active scanners before, now they are silent. I wonder why? C) There are a select few people in this thread that do not want balance, they only want Scout superiority in everything except HP, and even HP they are not willing to totally give up. D) I am beginning to think my previous assertion is wrong, not because of the reason you state, but because EWAR really should be spread out more than it is. Whether that be through limiting each scout suit to 1 EWAR bonus and 1 non-ewar bonus or to make each class of suit (light/medium/heavy) best at one type of EWAR (as another poster mentioned), the current paradigm is very wrong. Oh: and to address your z vs x vs y thing. Yes, current scouts are better/equal at NEARLY everything compared to the medium suits, and yes that is unfair. They should have to make sacrifices (whether that be hp for ewar or hitbox size increase or whatever). Unfortunately we are stuck with the systems currently deployed, so we have constraints on what can be done. Fixing EWAR
Jebus McKing lol Proto 781	Posted - 2014.10.15 11:13:00 - [345] - Quote Dear Magnus, Nobody is denying that EWAR needs some changes. But your proposal won't help anyone, because with your system even more suits would have to live with the terror of permascan. With your system avoiding scans would become so hard that people would probably switch to plates instead and damps as a whole would be as useless to everyone as they are for mediums right now. Contrary to your belief, not everyone who criticises your proposal just wants scout superiority. The criticism is valid. Accept it. Rework your system. If you don't like permascan then why do you want to expand it to even more suits? If you cannot rely on 2x damps to make you avoid the disadvantage of being scanned, why would you use them instead of 2x plates that give you the advantage of 200+ HP no matter the circumstances? Scans in general are a crutch for those too lazy to pay attention to their surroundings. Avoiding them has to become easier, for everyone. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1161	Posted - 2014.10.15 14:26:00 - [346] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Dear Magnus, Nobody is denying that EWAR needs some changes. But your proposal won't help anyone, because with your system even more suits would have to live with the terror of permascan. With your system avoiding scans would become so hard that people would probably switch to plates instead and damps as a whole would be as useless to everyone as they are for mediums right now. Contrary to your belief, not everyone who criticises your proposal just wants scout superiority. The criticism is valid. Accept it. Rework your system. If you don't like permascan then why do you want to expand it to even more suits? If you cannot rely on 2x damps to make you avoid the disadvantage of being scanned, why would you use them instead of 2x plates that give you the advantage of 200+ HP no matter the circumstances? Scans in general are a crutch for those too lazy to pay attention to their surroundings. Avoiding them has to become easier, for everyone. Because the ONLY valid counter to cloaks is scanning, that is it. I have absolutely no problem with a 2x damp UNCLOAKED suit being tacnet invisible, it takes skill to move about in that suit undetected. Scans are no more of a crutch than cloaks are. Trust me I totally understand the usefulness of cloaks, being able to move from cover to cover with no/minimal detection is extremely useful in making scouts viable in non-CQC maps. Unfortunately the way cloaks are now, they are part of this EWAR system, and because of that the only VALID counter to them is precision. There needs to be a counter though, just like how damps are a counter to passive/active scans. Anyone who says "use your eyes" is being ignorant at best and dishonest at worst. On some of the maps with the really bright sandy color on bright days, cloaks are literally invisible when using the sand as a background. This allows a scout to use a frontal attack/approach on an assault suit, something that should be guaranteed death. Honestly cloaks should not be entangled with dampeners, but because they are, this is what we are left with. With the current EWAR system of permascanning scouts who can cloak we are stuck with the tank equivalent of 1.8, and that is why scouts are hated so much. Trust me, I know the tactics, I have used them myself. I know how cheap it is, and I know how I am robbing someone else of a fight or even a chance to fight back for very little investment and risk on my end. The only time i do the cloaky scout bit anymore is when the enemy has tons of them because it is BS play reminiscent of 1.7 tanks. But I do understand how the original is flawed now. It doesn't solve scout permascan, it just lets more suits permascan. It is a fairer system than what is in play now, but still fundamentally flawed. Permascan needs to go. Scouts currently are at least 3-4 times more effective at permascan than pre-nerf scanners were, and that needs to be fixed. Cloaky scouts having no valid counter needs to be fixed as well, but these issues are not directly related, they are just stacked all on the same suit to make it OP. Fixing EWAR
Jebus McKing lol Proto 782	Posted - 2014.10.15 15:05:00 - [347] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Anyone who says "use your eyes" is being ignorant at best and dishonest at worst. I strongly disagree with this. I actually think that the way cloaks work is very clever (except for the EWAR part). They help scouts to cross open terrain where else they would be instantly killed by anyone while at the same time not making them completely invisible. You don't need any skills or modules to counter cloaks. The only thing you have to do is paying attention to your surroundings and cloaks will become way less effective. Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Scans are no more of a crutch than cloaks are. Now here comes the interesting part. I absolutely agree with you on that one. Cloaked scouts that still have the best scans are just too good. But we have to find a way to make both less effective without buffing the other or completely destroying EWAR. Adi's proposal from a few pages earlier was actually quite clever in this regard. (Based on an idea by Haerr) he proposed to take away the cloaks dampening bonus and instead giving it a NEGATIVE effect on scan precision. The result would be that cloaks would effectively be turning off the scouts scans while cloaked. Together with the proposal to buff the profile of Assaults so that they can hide from non-precision specialized scouts more easily, I think this would create a nice interplay where overall we'd have less permascan. Permascan wouldn't be completely gone, and I am afraid we can't get rid of it without a complete EWAR rework, which is unfortunately out of the question at the moment. Hiding from scans would be easier for everyone. Cloaked scouts would have to use their eyes to find you, just as you'd still have to use yours to find them. lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Vesta Opalus Kang Lo Holding 51	Posted - 2014.10.15 15:28:00 - [348] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: In this thread, scouts complain about permascan while they permascan. Maybe another poster in this thread had the right answer: Scouts should get the best profiles Mediums get should get the best precision Heavies should get the best range IDK, something needs to happen. Having spin-scanners was broken, everyone admits that. Scouts are spin-scanners on steroids. Well theoretically scouts sacrifice hp/utility to get their scans. This isnt how the class is set up right now. Right now you can be fully damped with good scans and decent hp with a weapon that can 1-2 shot people in the scout suit, this is the big imbalance. You can have quad damage, invisibility, haste, and wall hack with some sacrifices, but maybe not all of them at once, which is what some scout frames can achieve now (lookin at you Gal scoots). Any one of these things is pretty overpowering, but the scout frames can get 2-4 of them pretty easily (varies by scout race).
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2014.10.15 17:01:00 - [349] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Nerf scouts. All stats. All levels. Reads post Reads Sig Chokes and dies laughing Works for me. Stay that way, unless it's not too late for me to include a fire. Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Chokes on own bs and dies laughing in a fire Even better. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2014.10.15 17:10:00 - [350] - Quote And when the viewable area of the game is 360-¦ the "Just use your eyes" arguement for vision being a cloak-counter will be valid. Nerf scouts. All slots. At all levels. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Jebus McKing lol Proto 782	Posted - 2014.10.15 17:16:00 - [351] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: And when the viewable area of the game is 360-¦ the "Just use your eyes" arguement for vision being a cloak-counter will be valid. Nerf scouts. All slots. At all levels. If a scout catches you form behind he doesn't even need a cloak. Using your eyes will improve your gameplay. Using a brain even more so. Maybe you should try that? lol Proto // @JebusMcKing
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1165	Posted - 2014.10.15 18:05:00 - [352] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Anyone who says "use your eyes" is being ignorant at best and dishonest at worst. I strongly disagree with this. I actually think that the way cloaks work is very clever (except for the EWAR part). They help scouts to cross open terrain where else they would be instantly killed by anyone while at the same time not making them completely invisible. You don't need any skills or modules to counter cloaks. The only thing you have to do is paying attention to your surroundings and cloaks will become way less effective. Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Scans are no more of a crutch than cloaks are. Now here comes the interesting part. I absolutely agree with you on that one. Cloaked scouts that still have the best scans are just too good. But we have to find a way to make both less effective without buffing the other or completely destroying EWAR. Adi's proposal from a few pages earlier was actually quite clever in this regard. (Based on an idea by Haerr) he proposed to take away the cloaks dampening bonus and instead giving it a NEGATIVE effect on scan precision. The result would be that cloaks would effectively be turning off the scouts scans while cloaked. Together with the proposal to buff the profile of Assaults so that they can hide from non-precision specialized scouts more easily, I think this would create a nice interplay where overall we'd have less permascan. Permascan wouldn't be completely gone, and I am afraid we can't get rid of it without a complete EWAR rework, which is unfortunately out of the question at the moment. Hiding from scans would be easier for everyone. Cloaked scouts would have to use their eyes to find you, just as you'd still have to use yours to find them. As I said, the "invisibilty" of cloaks is highly situational. On Manus peak when it is bright out, they are mostly invisible on the terran, same with a few other spots on maps.I can point you to Judge's video where the cloaked scout IS invisibile. It is also highly dependant on your TV settings. If you have your TV set properly calibrated, scouts are near impossible to detect in many places. So should everyone turn the gamma to max in order to see cloaks? No, "use your eyes" is a disrespectful, insulting, and condescending reply of the neck-beard variety. If you can see scouts really clearly at all times, and you didn't adjust your display specifically to do so, then your display has SH*TTY picture quality and you need to calibrate it to 6500k and proper light balance. They should have a counter. The problem is definitely multi-faceted. One thing is scouts have the best permascan this game has ever seen, and it is way better than active scanners ever were. As a previous poster put it, scouts have way to many very powerful EWAR abilities all crammed together. I do understand the reason for cloaks, they should allow you to cross open terrain in low HP suits without being insta-gibbed. They really shouldn't allow you to get within 15 meters of a target completely unseen though. That should require skill and smart re-positioning, not lol invisibility. They should have a counter. You saw the figure before... ~ 400,000 cubic meters of always on permascan. That is such a crazy amount it is hard to believe it. To put it into perspective, if a suit had permascan capabilities at a 10m range, it would only cover 418 cubic meters (close to 0.1% of scouts current ability), or in other terms, a little under double the blast radius of an assault mass driver. Precision and range should be inversely proportional. Fixing EWAR
mollerz 5562	Posted - 2014.10.15 18:35:00 - [353] - Quote I have an idea! Let;s all go our seperate ways and play better games, shall we? I mean, if we are going to lobby for the game to be easier for certain players, let's just make it T for teen, give heavies everything they want so they can all go fight other heavies with the 25 other heavies that still log in. w00t! See ya guys in other better games for sure after that! I'm seriously fukn serious
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1165	Posted - 2014.10.15 18:36:00 - [354] - Quote mollerz wrote: I have an idea! Let;s all go our seperate ways and play better games, shall we? I mean, if we are going to lobby for the game to be easier for certain players, let's just make it T for teen, give heavies everything they want so they can all go fight other heavies with the 25 other heavies that still log in. w00t! See ya guys in other better games for sure after that! We already have that in this game, it is called the scout class. Fixing EWAR
mollerz 5563	Posted - 2014.10.15 18:54:00 - [355] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: mollerz wrote: I have an idea! Let;s all go our seperate ways and play better games, shall we? I mean, if we are going to lobby for the game to be easier for certain players, let's just make it T for teen, give heavies everything they want so they can all go fight other heavies with the 25 other heavies that still log in. w00t! See ya guys in other better games for sure after that! We already have that in this game, it is called the scout class. That is false. I mean, maybe you get killed by scouts a lot, and usually in times like those, it's time to self reflect and admit your strategies are not working. It's tough to take personal responsibility for losing/failing/etc. I think it would benefit your character to take the harder and higher road of personal resolve to change yourself, versus ruining a game that finally achieved a modicum of balance. I'm seriously fukn serious
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1165	Posted - 2014.10.15 19:04:00 - [356] - Quote mollerz wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: mollerz wrote: I have an idea! Let;s all go our seperate ways and play better games, shall we? I mean, if we are going to lobby for the game to be easier for certain players, let's just make it T for teen, give heavies everything they want so they can all go fight other heavies with the 25 other heavies that still log in. w00t! See ya guys in other better games for sure after that! We already have that in this game, it is called the scout class. That is false. I mean, maybe you get killed by scouts a lot, and usually in times like those, it's time to self reflect and admit your strategies are not working. It's tough to take personal responsibility for losing/failing/etc. I think it would benefit your character to take the harder and higher road of personal resolve to change yourself, versus ruining a game that finally achieved a modicum of balance. LOL, yeah right. I use scouts dummy, I have everything to do with a scout at proto. It is easy mode. I actually enjoy using all of the suits, I like the different strategies between suit classes, scouts kinda crap all over that. Fixing EWAR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2014.10.15 19:25:00 - [357] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: If a scout catches you form behind he doesn't even need a cloak. Then cloaks aren't neccessary for scouts to do their job? Well, not what I was going for but I'm sure the throngs of "RemoveCloaks" opinionated players are happy to hear that from you. LOL brainscrub. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
mollerz 5565	Posted - 2014.10.15 19:49:00 - [358] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: mollerz wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: mollerz wrote: I have an idea! Let;s all go our seperate ways and play better games, shall we? I mean, if we are going to lobby for the game to be easier for certain players, let's just make it T for teen, give heavies everything they want so they can all go fight other heavies with the 25 other heavies that still log in. w00t! See ya guys in other better games for sure after that! We already have that in this game, it is called the scout class. That is false. I mean, maybe you get killed by scouts a lot, and usually in times like those, it's time to self reflect and admit your strategies are not working. It's tough to take personal responsibility for losing/failing/etc. I think it would benefit your character to take the harder and higher road of personal resolve to change yourself, versus ruining a game that finally achieved a modicum of balance. LOL, yeah right. I use scouts dummy, I have everything to do with a scout at proto. It is easy mode. I actually enjoy using all of the suits, I like the different strategies between suit classes, scouts kinda crap all over that. Reported for ad hominem. Also, I've run Minja scouts since day one.. with knives. Was a scout in closed beta- you know, when scouts were actually OP. But I've run a scout with the hardest weapon since it came out- so I've played with the real hard mode. Scouts are not easy mode like you think. You get wrecked by scouts because.. well, it's probably your tacts, bad squadmates, or too much dependancy on the tacnet. Eyeballs are OP. I'm seriously fukn serious
mollerz 5565	Posted - 2014.10.15 19:52:00 - [359] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: If a scout catches you form behind he doesn't even need a cloak. Then cloaks aren't neccessary for scouts to do their job? Well, not what I was going for but I'm sure the throngs of "RemoveCloaks" opinionated players are happy to hear that from you. LOL brainscrub. EDIT: Dang it, almost forgot- Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. Cloaks are only good for minjas due to the active dampening they need to get under scans. It's horrible for knifing. I only use it on hack suits. My bread and butter is hunting heavies with knives so cloaks aren't very useful for that. But let's face it, if a scout got within shotgun range and you didn't see the huge blue glow you weren't going to see it coming anyways. I'm seriously fukn serious
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1167	Posted - 2014.10.15 20:01:00 - [360] - Quote mollerz wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: mollerz wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: mollerz wrote: I have an idea! Let;s all go our seperate ways and play better games, shall we? I mean, if we are going to lobby for the game to be easier for certain players, let's just make it T for teen, give heavies everything they want so they can all go fight other heavies with the 25 other heavies that still log in. w00t! See ya guys in other better games for sure after that! We already have that in this game, it is called the scout class. That is false. I mean, maybe you get killed by scouts a lot, and usually in times like those, it's time to self reflect and admit your strategies are not working. It's tough to take personal responsibility for losing/failing/etc. I think it would benefit your character to take the harder and higher road of personal resolve to change yourself, versus ruining a game that finally achieved a modicum of balance. LOL, yeah right. I use scouts dummy, I have everything to do with a scout at proto. It is easy mode. I actually enjoy using all of the suits, I like the different strategies between suit classes, scouts kinda crap all over that. Reported for ad hominem. Also, I've run Minja scouts since day one.. with knives. Was a scout in closed beta- you know, when scouts were actually OP. But I've run a scout with the hardest weapon since it came out- so I've played with the real hard mode. Scouts are not easy mode like you think. You get wrecked by scouts because.. well, it's probably your tacts, bad squadmates, or too much dependancy on the tacnet. Eyeballs are OP. Are you also adipem? I have not seen anyone else throw that term around so incorrectly so often before... well except for him. That wasn't an ad hominem, I didn't attack your character rather than the argument. Now what you just did was a logical fallicy though, called "appeal to authority", also a trademark of adipem. How do you know I didn't mean dummy in a playful manner ala 30 Rock? Also you keep assuming I get "wrecked by scouts." They annoy me, and they absolutely are OP, and pretty much where all of the ex-tank scrubs went (you know, FotM chasers), but I wouldn't say "wrecked." What is this the 90s? I guess the fact that like 50% + of suits on the battlefield today being scouts is just a coincidence too eh? Also thanks for avoiding any point I bring up, that really shows where your priorities are at. Fixing EWAR

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 388	Posted - 2014.10.15 20:04:00 - [361] - Quote mollerz wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: If a scout catches you form behind he doesn't even need a cloak. Then cloaks aren't neccessary for scouts to do their job? Well, not what I was going for but I'm sure the throngs of "RemoveCloaks" opinionated players are happy to hear that from you. LOL brainscrub. EDIT: Dang it, almost forgot- Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. Cloaks are only good for minjas due to the active dampening they need to get under scans. It's horrible for knifing. I only use it on hack suits. My bread and butter is hunting heavies with knives so cloaks aren't very useful for that. But let's face it, if a scout got within shotgun range BEHIND YOU and you didn't see the huge blue glow BEHIND YOU you weren't going to see it coming anyways. Yet another not what I was going for, but w/e, it proves the point just as well episode. This Moment in Low IQ Interpretive Dance has been brought to you by scouts, hubris and the letters G and G. EDIT- Dang! I'm having a real hard time remembering this whole zealotry thing... Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1167	Posted - 2014.10.15 20:05:00 - [362] - Quote mollerz wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: If a scout catches you form behind he doesn't even need a cloak. Then cloaks aren't neccessary for scouts to do their job? Well, not what I was going for but I'm sure the throngs of "RemoveCloaks" opinionated players are happy to hear that from you. LOL brainscrub. EDIT: Dang it, almost forgot- Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. Cloaks are only good for minjas due to the active dampening they need to get under scans. It's horrible for knifing. I only use it on hack suits. My bread and butter is hunting heavies with knives so cloaks aren't very useful for that. But let's face it, if a scout got within shotgun range and you didn't see the huge blue glow you weren't going to see it coming anyways. You do know that blue glow depends on: Map Lighting Background and most importantly improper TV settings. If you need to adjust the contrast/brightness to super high levels (thus reducing your TVs life considerably) to see something, that is pure neckbeard territory, and not something to take into consideration when balancing. Fixing EWAR
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4813	Posted - 2014.10.15 20:06:00 - [363] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: If a scout catches you form behind he doesn't even need a cloak. Then cloaks aren't neccessary for scouts to do their job? That isn't true. Scouts don't just slay. They infiltrate and hack. Pre 1.8, I would often take several minutes to skirt the entire map, as close to the redline as possible, just to get to a far off CRU and/or objective to give my team a better chance, only to have someone spot me from 100 m or more away after all my effort and take me out in the blink of an eye. Just because you don't see everything I do as a team mate, and only pay attention to the scouts that are killing you, doesn't mean that killing is the only scout role. I don't end up on the top of leader boards with 10 kills or less because I everyone else is just that bad, there are other ways to score WP and win matches. You can always tell a Millford Minja
mollerz 5566	Posted - 2014.10.15 21:13:00 - [364] - Quote Pro TIp: Calling someone a dummy is ad hominem. It is not incorrectly using the term. But I am glad I can clear that up for you. Someday, maybe a mod will as well?...cough cough. I would have had a more in depth conversation with you, but since I am just a dummy why waste your time? All you've done is remove any consideration into your plight, and good job in having a super heavy handed cheerleader advocating your changes with an all encompassing nerf to scouts. We all know why but we'll just let that be the elephant in the room. I couldn't have dismantled your position and argument better than you have yourself. I'm seriously fukn serious
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 388	Posted - 2014.10.15 22:15:00 - [365] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: If a scout catches you form behind he doesn't even need a cloak. Then cloaks aren't neccessary for scouts to do their job? That isn't true. Scouts don't just slay. They infiltrate and hack. Pre 1.8, I would often take several minutes to skirt the entire map, as close to the redline as possible, just to get to a far off CRU and/or objective to give my team a better chance, only to have someone spot me from 100 m or more away after all my effort and take me out in the blink of an eye. Just because you don't see everything I do as a team mate, and only pay attention to the scouts that are killing you, doesn't mean that killing is the only scout role. I don't end up on the top of leader boards with 10 kills or less because I everyone else is just that bad, there are other ways to score WP and win matches. And I don't frequently rank in the top 5 with 1 or 2 kills and a whole sheetton of deaths because I'm oblivious to there being more that needs to be done than kill. I am not anti-cloak. I am not anti-tactical play. I am also not anti-gamebalancing that prohibits any single one class from being overly dominant in battlefield effect, thus Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. P.S. I'm glad that some point you read or were taught section one, chapter one of basic recon 101- Use the Edge. That you missed chapter two, Don't Be in Line of Sight or chapter three, Create a Fallback Along the Way, doesn't justify retention of the stack of base advantages the scout frame has. Initially, I felt the biggest issue was dual equipments. After having attempted and observed various balancing discussions and witnessed the gross entitlement culture of todays scout community I am now very much a Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels. guy. Thank your own community for their help both in game and on forum in forging this mentality. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2593	Posted - 2014.10.15 22:59:00 - [366] - Quote I think you just broke the forums by calling me and Adipem the same person... We disagree on so much its hilarious. In fact, we had each other blocked and refused to communicate for an entire month, iirc. I think hell find it absolutely hilarious, if he reads this. However, he, unlike you, has an ounce of common sense, and therefore, in this situation, (as well as a few others), I can very easily agree with him, as all he tries to do is balance the game. Trust me, Ive known him for a very long time. He is one of the least self-serving people you could find on here, and his unbiased feedback is literally the opposite of you ultra-self serving, IQ lowering, rants. Therefore, Iv decided to side with him in this issue. Scanning should never be nearly as powerful of a force as dampening. Thats what you have eyeballs for. You know, for seeing the red dot above someones head when you aim at them or the fact that they exist at all without a blue chevron over their head, or the brilliant and lol- worthy blue-purple shimmer that signifies a cloaked unit. I dont understand how many more crutches heavies need... "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1168	Posted - 2014.10.16 07:08:00 - [367] - Quote mollerz wrote: Pro TIp: Calling someone a dummy is ad hominem. It is not incorrectly using the term. But I am glad I can clear that up for you. Someday, maybe a mod will as well?...cough cough. I would have had a more in depth conversation with you, but since I am just a dummy why waste your time? All you've done is remove any consideration into your plight, and good job in having a super heavy handed cheerleader advocating your changes with an all encompassing nerf to scouts. We all know why but we'll just let that be the elephant in the room. I couldn't have dismantled your position and argument better than you have yourself. Calling it, you are adiphem. I wish there was a way for me to prove it though. Based solely on contents: being pedantic, argumentative, condescending, and more interested in personal disputes than the subject at hand. Pretty sure that circumventing a forum ban must be bannable too. C'est la vie. So, unless you suddenly started to speak in latin at random times for some reason, colloqual usage of the term "ad hominem" is in reference to a logical fallacy in argument. The only reason someone would use that instead of "insult" I can think of is to cover the fact that they had been using it wrong all of this time. To further my point, dummy doesn't necessarily have to be an insulting term, ala 30 Rock (dennis) or the flinstones or whatever. It is interchangeable with tiger, bud, pal, hotshot, man, dude, bro(and all variations of bro) or whatever. Anyway, lets see if I can make a post relevant to the thread rather than just pure trolling (exactly what you have been doing). One Eyed King wrote: That isn't true. Scouts don't just slay. They infiltrate and hack. Pre 1.8, I would often take several minutes to skirt the entire map, as close to the redline as possible, just to get to a far off CRU and/or objective to give my team a better chance, only to have someone spot me from 100 m or more away after all my effort and take me out in the blink of an eye. Just because you don't see everything I do as a team mate, and only pay attention to the scouts that are killing you, doesn't mean that killing is the only scout role. I don't end up on the top of leader boards with 10 kills or less because I everyone else is just that bad, there are other ways to score WP and win matches. Just because you aren't abusing the scout suits, doesn't mean others aren't... and rest assured they are. Scouts are at the present time better slayers than all suits besides sentinels, you can see this in matches or ask CCP for metrics (I wish). The fact of the matter is that scouts are better at killing than assaults, on top of everything else about them.... this seems kinda wrong, and reminiscent of slayer logis. You have to see this parralel right? Fixing EWAR
poison Diego Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 456	Posted - 2014.10.16 12:38:00 - [368] - Quote Like the idea of negative effect on precision while cloaked. That is the best Idea I've heard so far I give up R.I.P ADS getting more proficiency in the shotgun so I can kill every single f*ck I see using swarmlauncher

CCP Frame C C P C C P Alliance 4384	Posted - 2014.10.16 12:54:00 - [369] - Quote Thread derailed all over the place. Locking it down. Rattati will come back to you if he finds something interesting to comment on. If so, he will make official thread regarding this. Thank you for your feedback so far guys. CCP Frame



Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.