More misleading information

A thin-ass chance that they might be seen for one second as a blip isn't unreasonable, nor is it insurmountable. Do I want them PAINTED?

No, that's about the stupidest idea ever. it would guarantee annihilation.

there needs to be a chance of failure. But the "Always wins/always fails" binary equation is crap, cannot be balanced and has to have been the laziest game design i have ever seen.

Cloaks don't bother me.

Utter immunity to being detected on scans doesn't bother me.

Combining the two bothers me.

I forgot to mention gal scout goes to 1% scan precision, my bad, that is on me.

Am/Mimatar profile WITH PROTO CLOAK (seriously, stop ignoring this, it just makes you look like you are hiding something)
Damps Profile
----0--------33----
----1--------26----
----2--------21----
----3--------19----
----4--------18----

All passive scan avoidable
Only scannable by the gall-logi with a 5 million SP investment, for 5/40 seconds, within a tiny sliver of the battlefield that the logi must be pointed at, that requires ACTIVE USE OF.

Cal/Gall profile WITH PROTO CLOAK (seriously, stop ignoring this, it just makes you look like you are hiding something)
Damps Profile
----0--------28----
----1--------22----
----2--------18----
----3--------16----
----4--------15----

All passive scans avoidable
Only the caldari is scannable by the gall-logi with a 5 million SP investment, for 5/40 seconds, within a tiny sliver of the battlefield that the logi must be pointed at, that requires ACTIVE USE OF.

Logi scan precision
Mods Precision
----0--------41----
----1--------33----
----2--------27----
----3--------24----
----4--------22----

Looks to me like the logi can't pick up an all undampened scout with 1 precision mod. Adipem lying again....
Looks like 2 are actually required

Assault scan precision
Mods Precision
----0--------45----
----1--------36----
----2--------30----
----3--------26----
----4--------25----

Looks like an assault is just SOL. Too bad too, since the scout has a few OHK weapons that can easily kill an assault without him ever having a chance.

This isn't balanced here, pretty easy to see


Can you please quit lying now Adipem?

I am getting really tired of you being deceitful.


EDIT: adding gal/am scout precisions

AM scout scan precision
Mods Precision
----0--------31----
----1--------24----
----2--------20----

Cannot pick up all scouts...

GAL scout scan precision
Mods Precision
----0--------34----
----1--------27----
----2--------23----

Cannot pick up all scouts....

Yeah I love my minmitar scouts 4th low slot!

Also, **** scouts being able to dodge scans!

They should be perma scanned all the time by suits with 5x their HP and twice their damage output!

In other news, thread is a 10/10 troll.

6 pages of actual responses, as well as dragging in Shotty to actually argue with you on a mathematical level, and baiting a large amount of the community.

If Rattati had responded, Id nominate it as "Troll of the Year"

Can you please quit lying now Adipem? I am getting really tired of you being deceitful.

Dude, if I were trying to deceive anyone, I wouldn't be providing spreadsheets. How 'bout you put together the progressions for yourself instead of peddling platitudes and ad hominem?

Feel free to use my math.

Am/Mimatar profile WITH PROTO CLOAK (seriously, stop ignoring this, it just makes you look like you are hiding something)
Damps Profile
----0--------33----
----1--------26----
----2--------21----
----3--------19----
----4--------18----

All passive scan avoidable
Only scannable by the gall-logi with a 5 million SP investment, for 5/40 seconds, within a tiny sliver of the battlefield that the logi must be pointed at, that requires ACTIVE USE OF.

Cal/Gall profile WITH PROTO CLOAK (seriously, stop ignoring this, it just makes you look like you are hiding something)
Damps Profile
----0--------28----
----1--------22----
----2--------18----
----3--------16----
----4--------15----

All passive scans avoidable
Only the caldari is scannable by the gall-logi with a 5 million SP investment, for 5/40 seconds, within a tiny sliver of the battlefield that the logi must be pointed at, that requires ACTIVE USE OF.

Logi scan precision
Mods Precision
----0--------41----
----1--------33----
----2--------27----
----3--------24----
----4--------22----

Looks to me like the logi can't pick up an all undampened scout with 1 precision mod. Adipem lying again....
Looks like 2 are actually required

Assault scan precision
Mods Precision
----0--------45----
----1--------36----
----2--------30----
----3--------26----
----4--------25----

Looks like an assault is just SOL. Too bad too, since the scout has a few OHK weapons that can easily kill an assault without him ever having a chance.

This isn't balanced here, pretty easy to see


Can you please quit lying now Adipem?

I am getting really tired of you being deceitful.


EDIT: adding gal/am scout precisions

AM scout scan precision
Mods Precision
----0--------31----
----1--------24----
----2--------20----

Cannot pick up all scouts...

GAL scout scan precision
Mods Precision
----0--------32----
----1--------26----
----2--------21----

Cannot pick up all scouts....

Of course you could conceed that cloaks should not give you a dampening bonus at all and then I could rework the numbersm because as long as cloaks give you that bonus, they NEED to be taken into account.

I already did, last page, go look. Then come back here and say something. Fact of the matter is you ARE being misleading and you know it, that is known as lying.

You're right. I forgot to account for +10% proto cloak. Here are the new figures:

19 dB -Proto MN Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active
18 dB - Proto CA/AM Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active
15 dB - Proto GA Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active

Your model still isn't reasonable. You can't require an entire class to be max-skilled, always run proto gear, always run proto cloak, and always run straight damps, all to avoid being permascanned. The only way to pitch this is to do away with the GA Logi bonus and find a new bonus for the GA Scout.

Your model is impractical and imbalanced. The current model is working; why should we scrap it? Because you say so?

You're right. I forgot to account for +10% proto cloak. Here are the new figures:

19 dB -Proto MN Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active
18 dB - Proto CA/AM Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active
15 dB - Proto GA Scout, Straight Damps, Max Skilled, Proto Cloak Active

Your model still isn't reasonable. You can't require an entire class to be max-skilled, always run proto gear, always run proto cloak, and always run straight damps, all to avoid being permascanned. The only way to pitch this is to do away with the GA Logi bonus and find a new bonus for the GA Scout.

The current model is working. Your model is impractical and imbalanced.

Right now it is just perma-hide with little to no sacrifice, THAT IS NOT WORKING.

Those are some fantastic opinions you have there.
But because Magnus says so is not a legitimate basis for change.

I suggest we improve MedFrame and Commando base capacity for EWAR, but in doing so, we must avoid potential role overlap with the EWAR Scout. We all agreed that HP-tanked Scouts out-assaulting Assaults was bad. Same logic holds for EWAR Scouts and EWAR.

Suggestion:
* Scan Range: +3m Logi, +5m Assault, +5m Commando
* Scan Profile: -5 dB Assault
* Scan Precision: -5 dB Commando (equal to Assault)

I'm afraid I must counterpoint that "Because Adipem Nothi says so" is not a valid reason for things to remain as they are.

I didn't put things where they are. Rattati did.

No change to status quo at all.

Absolutely correct. Status quo holds that competitive EWAR is the realm of the Scout and the GA Logi. Other roles can benefit from EWAR -- moreso if buffed -- but they can't expect to compete in those capacities with EWAR specialists.

Just like Assaults can't expect to wield HMGs.
Just like Scouts can't expect to wield 2000HP.
Just like Heavies can't expect to carry 4 EQ.

We all have our specialties. If "assault lite" is any indication, things get ugly when the lines get blurred.

Those are some fantastic opinions you have there.
But because Magnus says so is not a legitimate basis for change.

How about you defend your position:

1. Is it ok that an assault with 3x complex enhancers will never see a caldari/gallente scout with a cloak, a cloak that also makes it so direct line of sight doesn't show on tacnet?

2. Is it ok that 1 cloak and 1 damp make caldari/gallente scout LITERALLY undetectable for ALL medium suits (sans gallogi with one specific, narrow, mostly inactive (87.5% of the time inactive) scanner?

3. Is it ok for a 900 eHP scout suit to be faster, run longer and more often, harder to hit (hitbox), do the same amount of damage, have an extra equipment slot, see farther, use OHK weapons directly from cloak, and remain completely hidden to an assault?

4. Is it ok that medium suits can never really take part in the passive (scan/range) EWAR game because they are just SOO hopelessly worse?

5. Is it a problem that EWAR in it's current stat has VERY little interplay outside of the scout suit?

6. Is it a problem that no one uses medium suits for EWAR?

What I'm seeing is that most of the arguments here are predicated on the BS idea that if scouts are not 100% undetectable they are useless.

That was true before the cloak existed.

It is no longer true.

However, permascan and permahide are BOTH BAD and need to be removed.

1. Absolutely. Counter recon is a specialty and squad sight is shared. If everyone were great at counter recon, we'd detract from the benefit of having an EWAR-fitted Scout or GA Logi in squad.

2. Yes.

3. Knives don't mix with plates, and Shotguns don't OHK much outside of other Scouts. No Scout has been good at all things at once since the pre-Alpha GalScout.

4. MedFrames engage in meaningful EWAR against other MedFrames, though this is an area we can improve upon to encourage EWAR module usage and build diversity.

5. Can't comment. I don't know that this is true.

6. I see little problem. If a merc wants to compete in EWAR games, he'd do well to use an EWAR suit.

1. Absolutely. Counter Recon is a specialty and squad sight is shared. If everyone were great at counter-recon, we'd detract from the benefit of having an EWAR-fitted Scout or GA Logi in squad.

2. Yes.

3. Knives don't mix with plates, and Shotguns don't OHK much outside of other Scouts. No Scout has been good at all things at once since the pre-Alpha GalScout.

4. MedFrames engage in meaningful EWAR against other MedFrames, though this is an area we can improve upon to encourage EWAR module usage and build diversity.

5. Can't comment. I don't know that this is true.

6. I see little problem. If a merc wants to compete in EWAR games, he'd do well to use an EWAR suit.

Unless there is a significant Db drop on both the commando AND the assault your numbers mean jack there hoss. No change to status quo at all.