I'd propose we hold off on overhauling Active Scanners until they make it onto a Hotfix agenda.

For Echo, I'd pitch just one change:
28 dB Active Scanners --> 25 dB.

Easiest on the Devs this way, and it'd solve one of the biggest issues at the heart of this thread.

Edit: I'd probably append that one change with a 5 dB reduction to Assault Scan Profile so they can still beat Proto Scans with two complex damps; we don't want to nerf them by accident.

Instead of buffing the active scanners which would have unforseen consequences for the medium suit ewar I again propose to make scout bonuses modify ewar module efficiency.

Et voila!

Undampened scouts can be seen by a proto active scanner even when they use a proto cloak.

We're only tweaking one variable here. Easy to check for unintended consequences.

Drop Logi/Assault Profile by 5 dB. No unforeseen consequences. 2 damps (24 dB) beats proto scans just like before (no change w/GA Logi either).

Efficacy bonuses made more sense prior to EWAR normalization. I'm not altogether opposed to the concept, but I believe there are cleaner ways to solve the "assault lite" problem (if it is in fact a problem).

Make the profile 44db so mediums with 2x damps can hide from scouts (cal/min) with 2x precision.

Stats would then be:

Assault 44/50 profile/precision
Logi 44/44 profile/precision
STD Active scanner 44db

We're only tweaking one variable here. Easy to check for unintended consequences.

Drop Logi/Assault Profile by 5 dB. No unforeseen consequences. 2 damps (24 dB) beats proto scans just like before (no change w/GA Logi either).

Efficacy bonuses made more sense prior to EWAR normalization. I'm not altogether opposed to the concept, but I believe there are cleaner ways to solve the "assault lite" problem (if it is in fact a problem).

Stats would then be:

Assault 44/50 profile/precision
Logi 44/44 profile/precision
STD Active scanner 44db

why would the logi be better than the assault when the assault should be the hunter?

Logi Precision is currently 5 better than Assault.

not sure I understand what you mean by EWAR normalisation.

I realise that precision amp skills etc affects all suits - so the base stats need to be reviewed and there are more variables in play....

why would the logi be better than the assault when the assault should be the hunter?

Care to elaborate why Assaults should be hunters and what your proposed stats then would be and why?

We can't satisfy demand to scan at high end of the spectrum (where assault lite lives) without interfering with interplay at the low end of the spectrum. If the baseline gets moved, CA/MN/AM scouts get marginalized. Hence the compromise with Active Scanners.

While the tool looks cool, something to do the math for us will have no bearing on our disagreement.

Scouts being the only counter to scouts is a problem.

It's no different than the only counter to snipers being snipers (it's not anymore) or the only counter to a sentinel being a a sentinel (it never was). That kind of deliberate design has always been abused. Just look at all of the FOTM stuff and the number of times it has been pointed out that x feature had no real counters.

The idea that a scout has to screw up to be killed or that a enemy should get lucky and happen to spot them inbound is not a counter.

A counter should be a counter and be dependant upon mechanics and some functioning level of skill and awareness.

The curretnt EWAR system renders the only hard counter to a scout being the cout screwing up badly or having a bad luck moment. Scout EWAR needs a counter that lime AV vs V. Is not an assured win. But by the same token the scout needs to have some chance of failure of stealth so that they can occasionally be pinged.

The curretn syatem allows no margin for error. It is binary. It is permascan/permahide.

Both permascan and permahide are bad and need to be killed. There needs to be a variable whether that variable is range, movement or amount of time spent inside enemy scan range or an RNG that sets a 1 in 20 chance that a scout appears on your radar or the sentinel briefly vanishes.

In DUST the only sure outcome is the results of scanning and profile. Because there is no variable involved it will always be permascan and permahide. This is not healthy over the long term for the game when one subset of players haas a clear and uncounterable advantage over the rest of the players.

No any counter dependent upon the scout screwing up or for the circumstances to unfold so you happen to notice a cloak is not a counter.

Dumb luck is never a counter. It's just dumb luck..

1. No, you are the one who only wants to tweak one variable.
2. You are the only one who thinks it is fine that an assault CANNOT see an undamped scout with just a cloak on it.
3. The interplay between passives is still utter garbage, and that needs to change.
4. Basically the tool will make it easier to show how completely broken passive EWAR system still is.
5. Medium suits need to be part of this discussion, the fact you think they don't is the problem.

You are the only one who thinks it is fine that an assault CANNOT see an undamped scout with just a cloak on it.

1. Which would give more mercs means to scan undampened Scouts, yes.
2. Nonsense. I just handed you the solution.
3. Does restating your opinion eventually make it a fact?
4. Your premise if fundamentally flawed. Spreadsheet cannot fix this for you.
5. Logis can already scan undampened scouts; assaults could too with the 25dB AS buff. If you want scan properly dampened scouts at low dB, add a counter-recon unit to your squad.

I will say again. The counter to scouts is not scanning. You are looking at this from the wrong angle. Scanning is one counter, but it is not the primary method that people should use to beat scouts.

Beating scouts is about awareness, reactions and team play (this most of all). This is fundamental to the whole mechanics of having a stealth class in the game. Remove this and you destroy the whole idea of scouts.

You know what, I am pretty sure you just don't want an assault(with THREE ENHANCERS) to be able to passively scan a scout that has 1 damp and a cloak.... you don't want that as possiblity. Just go ahead and admit that. Actually you don't want any medium suit to be able to passively scan a scout that only commits one damp do you? No matter how many enhancers a medium puts on...

The solution is not buffing precision, it is buffing damps.

I admit that I don't want an assault with 3x enhancers to be able to scan a scout with 1x damp + cloak.

I admit that I don't want a CAL/MN scout with 2x enhancers to be able to scan an assault with 2x damps.

The solution is not buffing precision, it is buffing damps.

Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do.

See the issue?

Which suit? The GalLogi?

Use a focused scanner and there you have your RNG fail rate.

AM/MN scouts need 3x damps + active cloak to avoid that.

CAL/GAL scouts need 2x damps + active cloak to avoid that.

Catch them while not cloaked and you know from where they are coming from and you can prepare by keeping your eyes and ears open.

Same goes for the AM scout with 2x enhancers.

All scouts have to use 2x damps + active cloak to avoid an AM scout fit for scout hunting.

Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted and skill bonused for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do.

See the issue?

I've already told you several times, Magnus. Because we can't tweak the top-end of the spectrum without impacting the low-end of the spectrum.

The Active Scanner change would be an effective work around. It'd permit you to solve top-end issues without creating new imbalance at the low end.

Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them?

Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them?