All scouts would still be extremely viable, even with these changes scouts may still be overpowered

1. Your spreadsheet is wrong. Dust, like eve, truncates values. This means 30.6 = 30 (gallente scout with 1 x cmplx damp)
It messes up quite a few figures of yours actually. It also means that unless you make the tradeoff (scan profile for HP) you will be detected. This is the #1 problem with scouts still, they can have HP and be undetected.

2. Scouts are assault lites because they ALWAYS have the initiative against other suits... ever since 1.8. No, my proposal would make it so that if you fit an scout like an assault you will be deteced by suits that have more eHP/reps and you will have to deal with them on equal footing. No more stealthy tanky scouts. It also makes it so that if you want to be undetected, you will fit for it.

1. Would you like to provide some proof? A poster before you used incorrect values, then posted them for everyone to see how he and his argument were wrong.

2. I am totally open to the fact that my math might be wrong, but don't think for a second I did not double/triple check the figures, and that I will not do the same to you.

1. Lets get a DEV in here, because unless this has changed, no CCP truncates values. They do for ammo, they do for HP, they do ranges, so what makes this special? Unless you can provide some type of proof, I think we can maintain the status quo here.

2. Just to be certain I did a search on google with the broad terms "Dust 514" and "truncate" and nothing confirmed what you have said... at all. Not one developer has spoken about a change to this, and there is not one video showing proof otherwise.

3. All of that aside, did you completely forget that active scanners were nerfed pretty hard? There is no 360 spin (unless you use passive scans, then it is always), and the duration of scans has also increased. On top of that, active scanning requires you to fit a module and actually use it, exposing yourself. Passive scanning is ALWAYS on.

Flux active scanner can be completely avoided by scouts, forever, permanently. The flux would have a 20 dB resolution on a max skilled gallente logi, a triple damped gal would avoid it. The thing is you would have to fit for it though....

Please for the love of god look up what you are writing.

"go find it yourself."

Honestly, thank you. I will admit I must have been wrong. So while a very few tweaks to the numbers will be required, such as changing the proto active scanners to 25-26 dB rather than 24, the underlying logic of the post I think is solid.

I have just logged in and tested it agaiIn, just as CCP said, scanners now take snapshots of the range that they are pointed at when they activate, this means that you get what you are pointed at. To do this I suicided into the middle of a domination match (where we were getting destroyed) a few times with a 60 degree scanner.

I really hope CCP is smarter than the OP ...

How is it balanced that the only participants in EWAR are scouts?

Come up with a compelling argument as to why the scouts shouldn't have to compete in EWAR ...

... while you stomp about all frothy and indignant? No thank you. I can think of better ways to waste time.

I know I said we should not mess with EWAR, but what if we just reduced medium suit profile to 45db and left everything else the same? This would make them much easier to damp below common scanning threats if people wanted to.

It might even make active scanners better in competitive play as at proto they generally have better precision than scout passive scans.

Bluntly scanning ranges should START at 50m minimum. This 10m crap is pretty much the most useless inception of the personal radar I have ever seen in a game.

Hell these two ALONE would fix 99% of the problems

1)Profile damps to 20% from 25%

2) profile/precision "scouts go to 40/40, logis go to 45/45, assaults to 50/50 (no change), heavies to 55/55

To compensate for the changes: amarr precision goes to 3% (unless you want it scanning all suits including gall/cal scouts with 3 damps)

But thanks again for insulting me, what is that, your 5th time insulting me in this thread? Reported.

Scout player detected.

I will not support anything related to making anyone immune to being detected.

A thin-ass chance that they might be seen for one second as a blip isn't unreasonable, nor is it insurmountable. Do I want them PAINTED?

No, that's about the stupidest idea ever. it would guarantee annihilation.

there needs to be a chance of failure. But the "Always wins/always fails" binary equation is crap, cannot be balanced and has to have been the laziest game design i have ever seen.

Cloaks don't bother me.

Utter immunity to being detected on scans doesn't bother me.

Combining the two bothers me.

My thought is that if I choose to forgo tank on my fatsuits in order to rock range and precision mods I should have a CHANCE to catch that little turd coming at me with the knives.

in practice, the game is full of scouts running as assaults ...

One part of the solution is to bring EWAR to other suits by bleeding it across the classes. This forces the scout to use EWAR modules to counter fits used by other EWAR suit set ups - and then play to the supposed scout strengths.

But there needs to be a chance that detection could happen randomly. The scoits need to have that "**** did he see me?" Butt pucker moment on approach.

It needs to be more cautious and more thoughtful. Scouts currently have fear of nothing. Plus all of the "just roll a scout. The assault better than assaults."

Can you please quit lying now Adipem? I am getting really tired of you being deceitful.

I already did, last page, go look. Then come back here and say something. Fact of the matter is you ARE being misleading and you know it, that is known as lying.

I'm afraid I must counterpoint that "Because Adipem Nothi says so" is not a valid reason for things to remain as they are.

No change to status quo at all.

How about you defend your position:

1. Is it ok that an assault with 3x complex enhancers will never see a caldari/gallente scout with a cloak, a cloak that also makes it so direct line of sight doesn't show on tacnet?

2. Is it ok that 1 cloak and 1 damp make caldari/gallente scout LITERALLY undetectable for ALL medium suits (sans gallogi with one specific, narrow, mostly inactive (87.5% of the time inactive) scanner?

3. Is it ok for a 900 eHP scout suit to be faster, run longer and more often, harder to hit (hitbox), do the same amount of damage, have an extra equipment slot, see farther, use OHK weapons directly from cloak, and remain completely hidden to an assault?

4. Is it ok that medium suits can never really take part in the passive (scan/range) EWAR game because they are just SOO hopelessly worse?

5. Is it a problem that EWAR in it's current stat has VERY little interplay outside of the scout suit?

6. Is it a problem that no one uses medium suits for EWAR?

1) So you are saying go scout or go home.. thanks. I was pretty sure that was your position, it is just good to here you say it.

2) So you are saying for nearly no sacrifice you get to be the undisputed best, with no interplay. Yep, that should definately lead to more interesting gameplay.....

3) Thanks for not answering my question..... with a creodon and 2x dmg mods, it rarely takes two hits to kill non sentinels, and you can fire 2 shots before a sentinel can turn around....

4) Also a non-answer

5) Why would you, you only run scouts.

6) Once again, go scout or go home. Can anyone name for me the suits that are DAMPENING specialized... oh right that would be the caldari/gallente scouts.

7) I appreciate it, you have illuminated your position quite well.

EDIT: Breaking stuff put it better than i did

CCP should put an RNG in so they have something to tweak to make sure scouts aren't undetectable and to insure I don't figure out a way to see you and kill you in a fatsuit 100% of the time.

Hey maybe we should make it so other suits can still see cloaked scouts if they fit for it and the scout doesn't.

In reference too?

Do you mean the amarr precision bonus?

Actually with the adjustments, the amarr precision bonus would be able to scan a cal/gallente scout with two damps and no cloak, or with one damp and 1 cloak. The caldari/gallente scouts would remain hidden with two damps and a cloak.

You should train reading comprehension 1. It might help your posting.

Caldari/Gallente scouts with 2 dampners and no cloaks

I think it is about the same usefulness as the bonuses are now, and a good reason why cal/gal remain the dominant scouts on the field.

Giving any scout more than 1 EWAR bonus was always a horrible decision, especially considering that there are only 3 EWAR attributes. I stand by it being absolutely the wrong decision, and that won't change.

Unfortunately I have battered wife syndrome, I am so used to amarr stuff just being underwhelming/missing at this point that I'll take what I can get.

In reality, I think, it should go like this:

All scouts should be 40/40 precision/damp

Dampeners/enhancers should be of equal stregnth

Amarr get precision, gallente get dampening, caldari get range, and minmatar get 39/39 precision/damp and hacking (thereby making them solely invisible by default and the definitive stealthy scouts.)

2nd bonus: Amarr get stamina, minmatar knives..... I haven't worked out the other two yet... I realized this proposal was a fools errand.

This proposal would fall on deaf ears as the scout community has a collective aneurysm.

EDIT: hell you could even make all of the secondary bonuses to the main pistol sidearm damage/blast radius... IDK. I think it would be pretty cool though.

EDIT 2: hell even those EWAR bonuses could be module based, and probably should be. The damage/blast radius/ammo/charge up or whatever to racial pistol though... golden.

And why did this thread suddenly go from being about expanding ewar access to frames outside of Scouts to being about balancing ewar amongst just Scouts?

The underlined statement is so incredible mouthbreathing dumb I don't even know how to approach it.... care to expand on that or are you actually proud of that mindnumbing statement? I mean, there are like a few thousands of ways to fit each suit, and each suit has different bonuses, and there are variation of each module, and you somehow pull out this nugget of idiocy?


You are so full of crap it isn't funny, all you have done all thread is obfuscate and misdirect in order to keep complaining about something you obviously don't even fully understand. Why would I say you don't fully understand it?

As Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p highlighted, you thought that 3 complex precision enhancers picking up a scout with 1 cloak and 1 damp was "reasonable" when you were under the delusion of that being possible right now. When I pointed out your failure of simple arithmetic and how your fudged "reasonable" numbers you changed the subject.

You couldn't care less about balance, and you have proven that over and over. This thread is about keeping the interplay between scouts more or less the same, with a small BUFF to amarr scout (which for some reason you can't comprehend), and allowing medium suits to detect poorly fir scouts with cloaks.

I am sure your next response will be "PERMASCAN!!!" which has already been disproven.

When a extremely specialized scanner on a specialized suit just might be able to pick up some non-specialized scouts for 12.5% of the time if the scanner's extremely narrow view is pointed in the right direction. You claim "Permascan"

1. No, the way EWAR is set up right now is so OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of dampening it isn't funny. By default ONLY scouts have a profile that is 12.5% lower than precision, all other suits are either equal or precision is better than profile.

2. By default, precision enhancers are 20% less powerful than profile dampners. On top of all of these insanely unbalanced mechanics, cloaks also add a 10% non-stacking-penalized reduction to profile.

3. The funniest part about all of this though? In my proposal (which you agreed the results of are "reasonable") dampening specialized suits can always win... always. But no, you act like this huge entitled baby when the absolutel supremecy of scouts is challenged:

4. When a extremely specialized scanner on a specialized suit just might be able to pick up some non-specialized scouts for 12.5% of the time if the scanner's extremely narrow view is pointed in the right direction. You claim "Permascan"

5. When a specialized scout suit (amarr) would be able to see specialized hiding suits some of the time (cal/gallente) you claim"permascan".

6. All you have done all thread is plug your ears and stomp your feet, fail at arithmetic, and then agree with the OP on accident.

That would be an ad hominem because you do not address the arguments you purely dismiss it based upon character assassination. This is something you have done repeatedly in this thread.

FTFY.

Again with the distraction kd leaderboard garbage?
Feel free to post ANY actual performance statistics you're privy to.
I didn't think that I would have to actually explain why the kdr leaderboards aren't relevent since anyone with even a basic actual understanding of statistical analysis would see that

1. The KDR leaderboard only goes for a couple thousand positions ( for a game with, by most estimates a population of roughly 12 thousand at any given point) which automatically excludes record of thousands of players. disclaimer: 12k is, yes, an estimate, based from threads on the topic and personal observation of the Tranquility player counter which, I know, is mostly EVE players.

2. In a game, such as Call of Duty or maybe HALO, where the overwhelming objective is killing the opponent solely using a kdr datapool could give a reasonable assessment of player activity. In a game like DUST514 however, since the perogative is not exclusively the killing of the opponent but rather the winning of the game by any of a number of means (elimination of clones being just one) focusing on kdrs solely ignores the other methods and the means of achieving them.

3. Your continuous insistence of focus on not just the kdr leaderboard but the top of it limits not just the scope of a sad datapool but also its breadth . You are pointing at statistical OUTLIERS and claiming that an average of them is an average of the entire group. Statistical outliers and any anomoly among them is proof of little nothing in general for the actual average and proof of ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING here.


A couple of times you have claimed or insinuated some knowledge or possession of "performance statistics". If you actually have either I invite, encourage and at this point demand you provide them here or in the words of Magnus^, " STFU and GTFO". So tired of theorycraft idiots trying to pony stupidity around as evidence. You affirm with every. Single. Self-interested Post. Exactly why crowdsourcing game improvement ideas from the playerbase can be such a **** idea.

Ok, so if you want to actually work with me, I would be more than willing to discuss scanners as I already admitted those stats are rough.

[snip] Active Scanner Improvements [/snip]

Instead of buffing the active scanners which would have unforseen consequences for the medium suit ewar I again propose to make scout bonuses modify ewar module efficiency.

Et voila!

Undampened scouts can be seen by a proto active scanner even when they use a proto cloak.

Make the profile 44db so mediums with 2x damps can hide from scouts (cal/min) with 2x precision.

Stats would then be:

Assault 44/50 profile/precision
Logi 44/44 profile/precision
STD Active scanner 44db

why would the logi be better than the assault when the assault should be the hunter?

not sure I understand what you mean by EWAR normalisation.

I realise that precision amp skills etc affects all suits - so the base stats need to be reviewed and there are more variables in play....

1. No, you are the one who only wants to tweak one variable.
2. You are the only one who thinks it is fine that an assault CANNOT see an undamped scout with just a cloak on it.
3. The interplay between passives is still utter garbage, and that needs to change.
4. Basically the tool will make it easier to show how completely broken passive EWAR system still is.
5. Medium suits need to be part of this discussion, the fact you think they don't is the problem.

The solution is not buffing precision, it is buffing damps.

Why would I ever expect you to give me a direct answer... ever. No that would mean you want to have a discussion.

You refuse to directly answer questions, you refuse to expand on ideas, you refuse to clarify reasoning. You are not here for discussion, and because of that you need to leave.

... but when they only commit 1-2 lows to damps, are they really committed to dampening, or is that a token effort that should be negated by another suit that sacrifices more?

It has to be rebuilt to be fixed

Well argued.

Why are dampners @ 28% on your thing?

Also, here is the link to the tool I made, try it out.

How did you make your data anonymous?

Does the document have personal information about the people viewing it?

1. You really need to stop acting like you give one bit of a care about EWAR interplay. You care about scout superiority and that is it, this has been proven time and again, so please for everyone's sanity stop.

2. I mean are you freaking kidding with those numbers? OH good, now dampeners are even more powerful than precision!!

3. lol @ that sheet. Complete garbage.