This is a good effort, but I see some serious problems.

1. With your changes, Assault and Logi suits would need to only run 2 complex precision enhancers, and he will defeat nearly EVERY *practical* ewar solution employed by Scouts today, and if the Assault or Logi uses 3...? Congratulations you just broke the Amarr and Minmatar scouts.

2. These changes simply force the Amarr scout to share its ONE advantage (scan precision) with the suit that doesn't need anymore advantages, the Gallente Scout. These changes would make BOTH of those suits the undisputed kings of detection.

3. Amarr and Minmatar scouts will simply be incapable of hiding from other scouts... and as I said before, Assaults and Logis that feel like finding them, dampened or not.

4. The Gallente scout will again come out on top as best dampening scout, AND (unlike now) it will be able to detect people running 2+ dampeners.

These changes simply ensure that Assaults can kill the majority of dampened Scouts with ease (don't forget Assaults have a LOT of base health now, it would NOT hurt them to run ewar modules). It will also ensure that only the Gallente scout is viable; the Amarr scout, despite the precision advantage, would be the only Scout suit capable of hiding.

Edited: To ensure that the threat posed by Assault and Logi suits is emphasized.

Addendum: EWAR in this game is not broken. The Cloaked Shotgun spam is. To solve the issue of CQC Scout spam, a simple hotzone of absolute detection could be implemented around Logi or Assault suits. If a hostile comes within 3-5 meters of you, you get detected, cloaked and dampened or not, and that detection is squad-shared so that the victims buddies can turn around and floor you as needed. This will force shotgun scouts to be more methodical with their approach, since they won't be able to wipe out whole squads without being detected.

All scouts would still be extremely viable, even with these changes scouts may still be overpowered

1. Your spreadsheet is wrong. Dust, like eve, truncates values. This means 30.6 = 30 (gallente scout with 1 x cmplx damp)
It messes up quite a few figures of yours actually. It also means that unless you make the tradeoff (scan profile for HP) you will be detected. This is the #1 problem with scouts still, they can have HP and be undetected.

2. Scouts are assault lites because they ALWAYS have the initiative against other suits... ever since 1.8. No, my proposal would make it so that if you fit an scout like an assault you will be deteced by suits that have more eHP/reps and you will have to deal with them on equal footing. No more stealthy tanky scouts. It also makes it so that if you want to be undetected, you will fit for it.

1. Would you like to provide some proof? A poster before you used incorrect values, then posted them for everyone to see how he and his argument were wrong.

2. I am totally open to the fact that my math might be wrong, but don't think for a second I did not double/triple check the figures, and that I will not do the same to you.

1. Lets get a DEV in here, because unless this has changed, no CCP truncates values. They do for ammo, they do for HP, they do ranges, so what makes this special? Unless you can provide some type of proof, I think we can maintain the status quo here.

2. Just to be certain I did a search on google with the broad terms "Dust 514" and "truncate" and nothing confirmed what you have said... at all. Not one developer has spoken about a change to this, and there is not one video showing proof otherwise.

3. All of that aside, did you completely forget that active scanners were nerfed pretty hard? There is no 360 spin (unless you use passive scans, then it is always), and the duration of scans has also increased. On top of that, active scanning requires you to fit a module and actually use it, exposing yourself. Passive scanning is ALWAYS on.

Lets get a DEV in here, because unless this has changed, no CCP truncates values. They do for ammo, they do for HP, they do ranges, so what makes this special? Unless you can provide some type of proof, I think we can maintain the status quo here.

I have just logged in and tested it agaiIn, just as CCP said, scanners now take snapshots of the range that they are pointed at when they activate, this means that you get what you are pointed at. To do this I suicided into the middle of a domination match (where we were getting destroyed) a few times with a 60 degree scanner.

How is it balanced that the only participants in EWAR are scouts?

Great, now you are going to be pedantic like a teenager losing an argument.


No you haven't. Like I said, you cherry picked some examples, and I just showed you how there is absolutely no interplay here.

Go scout or go home for EWAR. The fact that you are trying to dispute this common knowledge with misleading cherry picked examples just shows that you have no interest in balance, only supremacy. You think 1-2 lowslots is enough sacrifice for a suit to be beyond reproach. 1-2 lowslots dedicated is a middle of the ground jack of all trades fitting, and isn't worthy of being unchallengable.

Let me guess, you run a scout most of the time.... your bias is showing.

Two lowslots is not a "large sacrifice". Or lets say two slots is a sacrifice, can I "sacrifice" 4 slots, a much large number, on a logistics or assault suit to passively pick up the scout who only sacrificed two lowslots? What about 5 slots... surely that is enough to counter only a two slot investment... I mean that is the entire tank.

Or are you saying sacrificing the entire tank of a suit in order to pick up scouts is less of a sacrifice than a scout sacrificing 1-2 lowslots?

Also please remember, the extra equipment slot was put on the scouts so that they WOULDN'T have to sacrifice to run a cloak, so a cloak is no sacrifice at all.

Come up with a compelling argument as to why the scouts shouldn't have to compete in EWAR ...

... while you stomp about all frothy and indignant? No thank you. I can think of better ways to waste time.

Can you please quit lying now Adipem? I am getting really tired of you being deceitful.

I already did, last page, go look. Then come back here and say something. Fact of the matter is you ARE being misleading and you know it, that is known as lying.

How about you defend your position:

1. Is it ok that an assault with 3x complex enhancers will never see a caldari/gallente scout with a cloak, a cloak that also makes it so direct line of sight doesn't show on tacnet?

2. Is it ok that 1 cloak and 1 damp make caldari/gallente scout LITERALLY undetectable for ALL medium suits (sans gallogi with one specific, narrow, mostly inactive (87.5% of the time inactive) scanner?

3. Is it ok for a 900 eHP scout suit to be faster, run longer and more often, harder to hit (hitbox), do the same amount of damage, have an extra equipment slot, see farther, use OHK weapons directly from cloak, and remain completely hidden to an assault?

4. Is it ok that medium suits can never really take part in the passive (scan/range) EWAR game because they are just SOO hopelessly worse?

5. Is it a problem that EWAR in it's current stat has VERY little interplay outside of the scout suit?

6. Is it a problem that no one uses medium suits for EWAR?

Your fail rate against Scouts is 100%? Magnus, this man need our help. Have you considered trying to pitch permascan?

Hey maybe we should make it so other suits can still see cloaked scouts if they fit for it and the scout doesn't.

Fun lies again (you know, misrepresenting the truth) always neglecting the cloak

Truth:

Logi + 2 complex enhancer for amarr/minmatar with only cloak
Logi + 3 complex enahancer with only cloak for cal/gal
Logi... never for 1 damp 1 cloak on any scout.

yeah that's balance.....

In reference too?

Do you mean the amarr precision bonus?

Actually with the adjustments, the amarr precision bonus would be able to scan a cal/gallente scout with two damps and no cloak, or with one damp and 1 cloak. The caldari/gallente scouts would remain hidden with two damps and a cloak.

Caldari/Gallente scouts with 2 dampners and no cloaks

And why did this thread suddenly go from being about expanding ewar access to frames outside of Scouts to being about balancing ewar amongst just Scouts?

The underlined statement is so incredible mouthbreathing dumb I don't even know how to approach it.... care to expand on that or are you actually proud of that mindnumbing statement? I mean, there are like a few thousands of ways to fit each suit, and each suit has different bonuses, and there are variation of each module, and you somehow pull out this nugget of idiocy?


You are so full of crap it isn't funny, all you have done all thread is obfuscate and misdirect in order to keep complaining about something you obviously don't even fully understand. Why would I say you don't fully understand it?

As Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p highlighted, you thought that 3 complex precision enhancers picking up a scout with 1 cloak and 1 damp was "reasonable" when you were under the delusion of that being possible right now. When I pointed out your failure of simple arithmetic and how your fudged "reasonable" numbers you changed the subject.

You couldn't care less about balance, and you have proven that over and over. This thread is about keeping the interplay between scouts more or less the same, with a small BUFF to amarr scout (which for some reason you can't comprehend), and allowing medium suits to detect poorly fir scouts with cloaks.

I am sure your next response will be "PERMASCAN!!!" which has already been disproven.

Holy cow, do you even know how to read? Seriously....

He claimed scouts had a 23.85 profile WITH cloak and 1 damp, the he claimed that a logistics suit with 3 x complex precision enhancers could scan it, then he said it was "reasonable." I then showed him how he was wrong and the actual profile was 21.** (I forget), but that what he thought was "reasonable" was what my OP would accomplish... he then changed the subject. Try to keep up.


I think that this is enough to prove that if there should be anyone who has a right to revert to ad homonyms, it's myself.

The underlined statement is so incredible mouthbreathing dumb I don't even know how to approach it.... care to expand on that or are you actually proud of that mindnumbing statement? I mean, there are like a few thousands of ways to fit each suit, and each suit has different bonuses, and there are variation of each module, and you somehow pull out this nugget of idiocy?

Are you retarded? Serious question because Im beginning to think that this isn't a troll. If you have ever played this game, you should understand that it is based entirely off of min/maxing. Meaning, in a competitive environment, if there is a way for a scout to be scanned, that scout will be scanned, and will remain scanned all the time.

As Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p highlighted, you thought that 3 complex precision enhancers picking up a scout with 1 cloak and 1 damp was "reasonable" when you were under the delusion of that being possible right now. When I pointed out your failure of simple arithmetic and how your fudged "reasonable" numbers you changed the subject.
Putting words into my mouth, and is not what I said. Max skills-3 Precision should detect one damp, but not 1 damp+ any cloak. That is very fair, considering shared passives, and the fact that Logis can derive all of their HP from just armor plates anyways.

When a extremely specialized scanner on a specialized suit just might be able to pick up some non-specialized scouts for 12.5% of the time if the scanner's extremely narrow view is pointed in the right direction. You claim "Permascan"

Caldari/Gallente scouts with 2 dampners and no cloaks

[snip] Active Scanner Improvements [/snip]

Actually I just finished a really nifty spreadsheet for passives...

1. No, you are the one who only wants to tweak one variable.
2. You are the only one who thinks it is fine that an assault CANNOT see an undamped scout with just a cloak on it.
3. The interplay between passives is still utter garbage, and that needs to change.
4. Basically the tool will make it easier to show how completely broken passive EWAR system still is.
5. Medium suits need to be part of this discussion, the fact you think they don't is the problem.

Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted and skill bonused for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do.

See the issue?

Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them?

Why would I ever expect you to give me a direct answer... ever. No that would mean you want to have a discussion.

So you think 1 damp should make a scout invisible, ok then I guess all scouts should only have 1-2 lowslots then. You see how ridiculous that sounds right?

If you are invisible, you should be a paper towel.

... but when they only commit 1-2 lows to damps, are they really committed to dampening, or is that a token effort that should be negated by another suit that sacrifices more?

700 eHP with 3 hp/sec armor rep is not low and 30 hp/sec shield (with a small delay). Especially when that suit is 100% invisible and puts out over 500 DPS, runs at over 7m/sec for a long time, with great stamina recharge, while being able to see all non damped suits (aside from the gal/caldari scouts) from 30 meters away. No sacrifice made there.

That is pretty solid mid-HP numbers, with rep, with great shield recharge, and great damage, and immunity to scans, and great ewar, on a suit that didn't focus on anything.

And proto assaults have really high HP, not sure why you would think to compare to that.

700 eHP with 3 hp/sec armor rep is not low and 30 hp/sec shield (with a small delay). Especially when that suit is 100% invisible and puts out over 500 DPS, runs at over 7m/sec for a long time, with great stamina recharge, while being able to see all non damped suits (aside from the gal/caldari scouts) from 30 meters away. No sacrifice made there.

That is pretty solid mid-HP numbers, with rep, with great shield recharge, and great damage, and immunity to scans, and great ewar, on a suit that didn't focus on anything.

And proto assaults have really high HP, not sure why you would think to compare to that.

How did you make your data anonymous?

Does the document have personal information about the people viewing it?

@ Jebus

May have found a way to make Haerr's cloak nerf work. Would you mind spot-checking this for potential problems?

1. You really need to stop acting like you give one bit of a care about EWAR interplay. You care about scout superiority and that is it, this has been proven time and again, so please for everyone's sanity stop.

2. I mean are you freaking kidding with those numbers? OH good, now dampeners are even more powerful than precision!!

3. lol @ that sheet. Complete garbage.

3. 28% damps versus 20% enhancers. The counter to damps are enhancers. you want to make the counter only 72% as effective.
That is a joke right? I mean no one is really that stupid are they?

You know what you stated is exactly what is written in the OP right?

So I put together a few charts as I did before for swarms (4 missiles for all/increasing damage for lower tiers... yep that was me) and the amarr scout bonus issue (was a while ago).

This time it is exploring how EWAR is fundamentally broken right now, and how we could bring it back to balance so that other suits can also be a part of this metagame.

Here is a graph of what EWAR looks like now. The (p) stands for precision and the (d) stands for dampening. As you can see, it is quite easy to avoid all scan with minimal sacrifice, and there is no sacrifice great enough to try to keep up.

1) Change a few scan profile/precision numbers.
The scout goes to 40/40, logi to 45/45, assault to 50/50, and heavy suits to 55/55.

2) Change precision dampners to mirror the values of precision enhancers. (i.e. cmplx-20%, enhanced-15%, basic-10%)

3) Change amarr precision bonus to 3% per level

Doing these changes would alter the above chart from what it is to THIS. Much more balanced, dampening specialized suit can still become fully undetectable, and even an assault can pick up on scouts who don't dampen at all.

4) Change active scanners to mirror the new values, change gallente logi bonus to 3% / level)
value/{gal logi value}
Proto focused = 20 / {17}
Proto = 26 / {22}
Advanced = 30 / {25}
Standard = 40 / {34}

Scanners are now useful for all suits again, but can easily be dampened to not be seen (1 cmplx damp on a sentinel evades the standard scanner on a non-bonused suit)

Some examples of the new system.

An assault with 1 complex enhancer picks up undampened amarr/minnie scouts, 2 enhancerss picks up the caldari and gallente ones too. Basically assault scouts now have to deal with prepared normal assaults.

A logi with 3 cmplx dampners picks up all amarr/minnie scouts with two dampners and cal/gal with 1 dampner. Useful for watching a squads back.

A crazy caldari sentinel that fits all complex precision enhancers could pick up undamned scouts (and even amarr/minnie scouts who go with only 1 damp). I would say that is one heck of a sacrifice, but it could potentially pay off.

EDIT: Changed proto active non-focused scanner to not pick up minmatar/amarr scouts when they fit to avoid scans.
EDIT: Update OP

Remember, this will allow scout to remain the very best at any single category of EWAR, but now they have to make trade-offs like every other suit in the game.

EWAR should never be a go scout or go home proposition.

In this thread, scouts complain about permascan while they permascan.

Maybe another poster in this thread had the right answer:

Scouts should get the best profiles

Mediums get should get the best precision

Heavies should get the best range

IDK, something needs to happen. Having spin-scanners was broken, everyone admits that. Scouts are spin-scanners on steroids.

Also thanks for not addressing that scouts a 10 times worse than perma-active scanners ever were.

Lol, says the guy who thought the original amarr scout was "just fine" and that the other scouts were "also fine."

You can see yourself to the door, but thanks for stopping by. Or do you want to continue and I can start linking older posts of yours?

Also thanks for not addressing that scouts a 10 times worse than perma-active scanners ever were.

Would you Like some math to go with that? Because it is there... Here lets run it down so your "above 70 IQ" can get it.

Proto Flux active scanner
21-28 db scan stregnth ( 1 damp on a cal/gallente assault easily dodges this, two for min/amarr)
ON for 26.6% of the time
Player is defenseless while scanning
200m x 90 degree CONE (~99,000 cubic meters)
Provides counter intel (the scanned/notscanned messeges)
shared with squad

vs.

Scout passive scan
18-36 db (requires 2 damps for gallente/caldari, 3 damps for amarr/minmatar)
On 100% of the time
Player can fire/cloak/heal/revive/run and scan at the same tiem
30-90 meter sphere (up to 381,000 cubic meters)
Provides no counter intel
shared with squad

So which one is more powerful again?

NOTE* I have all amarrian suits fully maxed out, with fully maxxed dropsuit upgrades (aside from shields) and ALMOST every non-side-arm weapon to proficiency lvl 3. I play all roles as well...often changing up the roles based upon the battle.

Anyone who says "use your eyes" is being ignorant at best and dishonest at worst.

Scans are no more of a crutch than cloaks are.

We already have that in this game, it is called the scout class.

LOL, yeah right. I use scouts dummy, I have everything to do with a scout at proto. It is easy mode.

I actually enjoy using all of the suits, I like the different strategies between suit classes, scouts kinda crap all over that.

Then cloaks aren't neccessary for scouts to do their job? Well, not what I was going for but I'm sure the throngs of "RemoveCloaks" opinionated players are happy to hear that from you. LOL brainscrub.


EDIT: Dang it, almost forgot-

Nerf scouts. All stats. At all levels.