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Magnus Amadeuss wrote:

Varoth Drac wrote:

Magnus Amadeuss wrote:

Varoth Drac wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted and skill bonused for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do.

See the issue?

Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them?

So you think 1 damp should make a scout invisible, ok then I guess all scouts should only have 1-2 lowslots then. You see how ridiculous that sounds right?

If you are invisible, you should be a paper towel.

I didn't mean just 1 damp. 1 or 2 though, yes. With 2 damps a scout is paper thin. There are other modules that scouts should be using in lows other than damps. What about code breakers, biotics, scan range, (shock) a little armour maybe? It's not just a case of "all damps" or "super-brick-fit".

Don't forget mediums have more slots.

No, a scout is paper thin by default, with two lowslots you can still add scout 406 HP to an amarr/gal scout (with 3 hp/sec regen armor), 313 HP to a minmatar, and 290 HP to the caldari, more than doubling their eHP. I don't know why you would think that a scout with over DOUBLE close to TRIPLE their original HP isn't a tanked scout.

You are right in that scouts should be using other modules in their lows, but when they only commit 1-2 lows to damps, are they really committed to dampening, or is that a token effort that should be negated by another suit that sacrifices more?


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Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 250	Posted - 2014.10.09 20:29:00 - [1] - Quote Making scout wear skills dependant on fitting mods would do a lot to fix things. This is an idea that CCP has previously supported. For example, if Gallente scouts replaced their precision bonus to a bonus to precision enhancers, an assault suit with one dampener could avoid Gallente scout scans unless they run precision mods. Precision modded Gallente scouts are rare as they only have a minor bonus to it and generally shield extenders are much more useful in their limited high slots. Congratulations, an easy way to counter the most common type of scout on the field. If the same was done to all scout dampening and precision bonuses it would do a lot to improve balance: Amarr only really make good of their precision bonus by using precision mods so not much change there, Gallente and Caldari scout would have to sacrifice tank to maintain their edge in dampening, Assaults could easily avoid passive scans from common scout fits, Caldari scout's amazing scan range would only be accessible with the use of some of their limited low slots, forcing them to sacrifice dampening or armour, A scout that really wants to be the EWAR McDaddy would be forced to sacrifice significant tank to do it (kind of like now but without shortcuts). The important thing is though, assaults and logis would be able to counter scout EWAR by fitting a dampener. Unless the scout sacrifices tank to fit precision, which would (in my opinion) remain rare, allowing smart assaults to be more viable vs scouts.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 250	Posted - 2014.10.09 20:38:00 - [2] - Quote Or, in the case where my previous post makes little difference you could do this: Reduce the alpha of shotguns. Do this by: Reduce damage Increase range Increase rate of fire Increase clip size Increase reload speed Bonus effects: Shotguns viable on assaults Nova Knives take their rightful place as the sneaky assassin weapon of choice. Extra note: Anyone that wants to nerf nova knives can (commence ban evasion) receive a stern telling off and mild humiliation on the internet.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 268	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:05:00 - [3] - Quote Having thought about this more I am strongly of the opinion that EWAR is as balanced as it is going to be and any changes are far more likely to break things than improve anything.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 273	Posted - 2014.10.11 12:00:00 - [4] - Quote I know I said we should not mess with EWAR, but what if we just reduced medium suit profile to 45db and left everything else the same? This would make them much easier to damp below common scanning threats if people wanted to. It might even make active scanners better in competitive play as at proto they generally have better precision than scout passive scans.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 273	Posted - 2014.10.11 16:27:00 - [5] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: permascan and perma-evade are both crap and should not be a thing. NOW. this does not mean I think every frisbee-tossing twit in a Minmatar scout should automatically pop up on my radar. I agree that's pretty much idiot ball. My thought is that if I choose to forgo tank on my fatsuits in order to rock range and precision mods I should have a CHANCE to catch that little turd coming at me with the knives. Edit: this has the side effect of making me easier to kill. Not that THAT's particularly hard unless you're in a vehicle. The simple fact is, currently all EWAR mods only have any useful utility on scout suits and on gallente logis running scanners. Otherwise they're almost entirely a waste of slots because of the whole binary ewar equation. In my eyes an important balancing factor for heavies is that they can't reach their full potential without support from their team/squad. I like the fact that a heavy needs another class in squad to benefit from scans. I always use EWAR mods on my logi suits because it makes my sentinel buddies unstoppable. I don't think we need heavy suits scanning scouts.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 274	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:37:00 - [6] - Quote I don't see why we need to make scouts easier to detect. The point of scouts is to avoid scans. For example it isn't reasonable to expect Minmatar scouts to fit more than 2 damps and a proto cloak to avoid scans (other than focused active scanners). Making mediums less detectable is maybe a good idea, but if you make dampening too difficult for scouts there will only be Gallente scouts or Amarr radar scouts. A large variety of fits and strategies will be lost and I don't understand why. You could maybe buff active scan angle or cool down. Trouble is you are opening a can of worms. It's prety balanced right now. Messing with it is likely to break things. The most important thing to remember is that you do not counter scouts by scanning them. Your aren't supposed to. You don't need to. If you want to make it this way you are barking up the wrong tree and not embracing the diversity that makes this game so great.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 275	Posted - 2014.10.11 20:50:00 - [7] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I suggest we improve MedFrame and Commando base capacity for EWAR, but in doing so, we must avoid potential role overlap with the EWAR Scout. We all agreed that HP-tanked Scouts out-assaulting Assaults was bad. Same logic holds for EWAR Scouts and EWAR. Suggestion: * Scan Range: +3m Logi, +5m Assault, +5m Commando * Scan Profile: -5 dB Assault * Scan Precision: -5 dB Commando (equal to Assault) Unless there is a significant Db drop on both the commando AND the assault your numbers mean jack there hoss. No change to status quo at all. Actually a -5 db on mediums has a significant effect on the current EWAR balance. Mediums would be able to avoid unmodded Gallente scout scans with only 1 damp rather than 2 like now. This is a significant change as Gallente scouts without precision mods are common. Mediums can therefore get on a similar EWAR footing to a large number of scouts (unmodded Gal, Cal and Min) with just one module. This would immediately bring EWAR closer between scouts and mediums as they will be able to choose, without compromising their fit significantly, to hide from common scout scans. I totally get what you are saying about the whole scanning system being too binary. There would be lots of ways of improving it if you completely rework it. Unfortunately that isn't on the cards, we are stuck with the systems we have. In legion then yes, it would be much better if profile was based on distance to target, movement speed, weapons fire, type of weapon etc. You could implement all sorts of factors that make the whole thing very unpredictable and dynamic. However we are stuck with the systems we have now. As for mediums participating in EWAR, I use it extensively with my logi and half my assault fits carry an active scanner. I use a scanner on my LAV that I drive around in my assault suit. Mediums could counter this with a profile dampener. I would like to see active scanners used more, but it's not a huge problem. In my experience assault suits are definitely on the rise, and scouts in decline. Maybe people need to spend less time on the forum and go play the game.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 275	Posted - 2014.10.11 20:54:00 - [8] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: The problem with the scout is not that they can hide from scans permanently. The problem is that the dampening capabilities of other suits are not good enough to hide from the precision scouts have. What you propose is that it should be easier to detect scouts to restore balance? Instead of making everyone light up on everyones radars and the guy with the most HP winning, I propose to make it easier for assaults to hide from scout scans as well. Balance would be restored and the one who actually pays attention to their surroundings - instead of just shooting at red dots as soon as they appear on their radars - wins. Give assaults a base profile of 44db, so they can actually hide from scouts not fit for EWAR, if they choose to fit dampeners. Make scout bonuses modifiy the efficiency of EWAR modules. This way scouts would actually have to choose if they want to fit EWAR or tank because they can't have both anymore. And lastly remove wallhack TacNet chevrons and directional arrows, so even if the scout can see you on the radar they still can't simply outplay you because they don't know which way you are looking anymore. I don't agree with your last point about chevrons and arrow, and you wouldn't need to change scout bonuses if you reduced assault profile to 44db, but otherwise I totally agree. This is what I have been trying to say (whilst being generally ignored). If EWAR does need modifying (and I'm not convinced it even does), this would be a good way to go about it.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 284	Posted - 2014.10.13 15:42:00 - [9] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted and skill bonused for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do. See the issue? Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them?
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 285	Posted - 2014.10.13 16:24:00 - [10] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted and skill bonused for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do. See the issue? Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them? So you think 1 damp should make a scout invisible, ok then I guess all scouts should only have 1-2 lowslots then. You see how ridiculous that sounds right? If you are invisible, you should be a paper towel. I didn't mean just 1 damp. 1 or 2 though, yes. With 2 damps a scout is paper thin. There are other modules that scouts should be using in lows other than damps. What about code breakers, biotics, scan range, (shock) a little armour maybe? It's not just a case of "all damps" or "super-brick-fit". Don't forget mediums have more slots.

Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 286	Posted - 2014.10.13 18:16:00 - [11] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Might as well just remove the radar. The problem is scouts can and are unscannabe anyway and can still defeat the token suit bonused to scan them down even when it is fitted and skill bonused for max scans. And in EWAR if you CAN defeat it you always do. See the issue? Not really, you aren't supposed to scan scouts. That is what I am trying to say. Not profile dampened scouts anyway. What is the point of a stealth class if you can scan them? So you think 1 damp should make a scout invisible, ok then I guess all scouts should only have 1-2 lowslots then. You see how ridiculous that sounds right? If you are invisible, you should be a paper towel. I didn't mean just 1 damp. 1 or 2 though, yes. With 2 damps a scout is paper thin. There are other modules that scouts should be using in lows other than damps. What about code breakers, biotics, scan range, (shock) a little armour maybe? It's not just a case of "all damps" or "super-brick-fit". Don't forget mediums have more slots. No, a scout is paper thin by default, with two lowslots you can still add scout 406 HP to an amarr/gal scout (with 3 hp/sec regen armor), 313 HP to a minmatar, and 290 HP to the caldari, more than doubling their eHP. I don't know why you would think that a scout with over DOUBLE close to TRIPLE their original HP isn't a tanked scout. You are right in that scouts should be using other modules in their lows, but when they only commit 1-2 lows to damps, are they really committed to dampening, or is that a token effort that should be negated by another suit that sacrifices more? i didn't say it wasn't tanked, just that it was still low hp. Considering you are talking about completely bricking the suit (other than the damps) to get to about (or a little over) half the average hp of a proto assault I would consider that pretty low on the hp scale.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 286	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:03:00 - [12] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: i didn't say it wasn't tanked, just that it was still low hp. Considering you are talking about completely bricking the suit (other than the damps) to get to about (or a little over) half the average hp of a proto assault I would consider that pretty low on the hp scale. 700 eHP with 3 hp/sec armor rep is not low and 30 hp/sec shield (with a small delay). Especially when that suit is 100% invisible and puts out over 500 DPS, runs at over 7m/sec for a long time, with great stamina recharge, while being able to see all non damped suits (aside from the gal/caldari scouts) from 30 meters away. No sacrifice made there. That is pretty solid mid-HP numbers, with rep, with great shield recharge, and great damage, and immunity to scans, and great ewar, on a suit that didn't focus on anything. And proto assaults have really high HP, not sure why you would think to compare to that. Not bad, bit too slow to really make good use of the dampening, cloak and 30m scan though. Pretty terrible regen for all that armour. You say it isn't specialised but I would say that is pretty specisalised in dampening and hp, and not a terrible fit. I would have thought a proto assault would be the natural thing to compare to a tanked proto scout. I can make a Gallente assault with 500ish more hp, 4 times the armour regen and only marginally slower (yes the scout has slightly better shield regen, stamina and hitbox, not game-changers though). Plus the assault has a bonus to it's primary weapon. Now, the weapon bonus may be lackluster, but CCP has expressed a desire to look into this issue. People seem to think that losing the EWAR battle means immediate death. It doesn't. May I also point out that I supported the idea to slightly reduce assault suit profile. This would allow the assault to sacrifice 100ish hp to dampen below the scout's scans. Not a perfect EWAR solution due to the possibility of being scanned by more powerful scanners, but a pretty decent counter to some of the scout's EWAR I think. Edit, if your scout fit really is a problem. Wouldn't it make more sense to do something about a scout's ability to stack armour plates, than to attack it's EWAR capabilities?