I'm for just about everything you suggest as it allows non-proto scanners to actually scan undamped scouts, I mean who would have thought undamped scouts would have to actually worry about scanners.

My only problem is the scan ranges.

Kind of pointless having the above changes when both the heavy and assault dropsuits can't scan anything past 15m, assuming their skill is maxed without wasting another slot for another pathetic 1 - 3 meters. It never sat well with me having the same scan range as a heavy while being in a much smaller/agile suit.

This still gives scout a complete monopoly on EWAR. I would, pwrsonally, much rather ewar be split three fold between each suit tier. Medium gets best scans, scout best dampening, and heavy best scan radii.

I can agree with you on all but number three. Fat bois are pretty much blind Ewar wise, but that normally doesn't matter seeing as they're so fat and tanky, it doesn't even matter. Assaults having best scans would give them an edge over scouts, so points there.

This is a good effort, but I see some serious problems.

1. With your changes, Assault and Logi suits would need to only run 2 complex precision enhancers, and he will defeat nearly EVERY *practical* ewar solution employed by Scouts today, and if the Assault or Logi uses 3...? Congratulations you just broke the Amarr and Minmatar scouts.

2. These changes simply force the Amarr scout to share its ONE advantage (scan precision) with the suit that doesn't need anymore advantages, the Gallente Scout. These changes would make BOTH of those suits the undisputed kings of detection.

3. Amarr and Minmatar scouts will simply be incapable of hiding from other scouts... and as I said before, Assaults and Logis that feel like finding them, dampened or not.

4. The Gallente scout will again come out on top as best dampening scout, AND (unlike now) it will be able to detect people running 2+ dampeners.

These changes simply ensure that Assaults can kill the majority of dampened Scouts with ease (don't forget Assaults have a LOT of base health now, it would NOT hurt them to run ewar modules). It will also ensure that only the Gallente scout is viable; the Amarr scout, despite the precision advantage, would be the only Scout suit capable of hiding.

Edited: To ensure that the threat posed by Assault and Logi suits is emphasized.

Addendum: EWAR in this game is not broken. The Cloaked Shotgun spam is. To solve the issue of CQC Scout spam, a simple hotzone of absolute detection could be implemented around Logi or Assault suits. If a hostile comes within 3-5 meters of you, you get detected, cloaked and dampened or not, and that detection is squad-shared so that the victims buddies can turn around and floor you as needed. This will force shotgun scouts to be more methodical with their approach, since they won't be able to wipe out whole squads without being detected.

This is a good effort, but I see some serious problems.

1. With your changes, Assault and Logi suits would need to only run 2 complex precision enhancers, and he will defeat nearly EVERY *practical* ewar solution employed by Scouts today, and if the Assault or Logi uses 3...? Congratulations you just broke the Amarr and Minmatar scouts.

2. These changes simply force the Amarr scout to share its ONE advantage (scan precision) with the suit that doesn't need anymore advantages, the Gallente Scout. These changes would make BOTH of those suits the undisputed kings of detection.

3. Amarr and Minmatar scouts will simply be incapable of hiding from other scouts... and as I said before, Assaults and Logis that feel like finding them, dampened or not.

4. The Gallente scout will again come out on top as best dampening scout, AND (unlike now) it will be able to detect people running 2+ dampeners.

These changes simply ensure that Assaults can kill the majority of dampened Scouts with ease (don't forget Assaults have a LOT of base health now, it would NOT hurt them to run ewar modules). It will also ensure that only the Gallente scout is viable; the Amarr scout, despite the precision advantage, would be the only Scout suit capable of hiding.

Edited: To ensure that the threat posed by Assault and Logi suits is emphasized.

Addendum: EWAR in this game is not broken. The Cloaked Shotgun spam is. To solve the issue of CQC Scout spam, a simple hotzone of absolute detection could be implemented around Logi or Assault suits. If a hostile comes within 3-5 meters of you, you get detected, cloaked and dampened or not, and that detection is squad-shared so that the victims buddies can turn around and floor you as needed. This will force shotgun scouts to be more methodical with their approach, since they won't be able to wipe out whole squads without being detected.

All scouts would still be extremely viable, even with these changes scouts may still be overpowered

Don't be fooled by the pretty chart or the cherry picked examples.

Here's the math, folks:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DRR1YkBcze0KNRLh-mQMV7FEC9rbs5BFj3T_f35Uhuo/edit?usp=sharing

In a word, we'd all be further under the permascan bus than MinScouts in Alpha.

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@ Magnus

I understand you've been away for awhile, and I hate to come at you aggressively, but what you've proposed here would create far more problems than it'd solve.

Your model negates all progress made toward EWAR normalization among scouts in HF Charlie, decentivizes use of EWAR modules among scouts, and pushes scouts back in the direction of Assault Lite. If there's no point to dampening, scouts will run plates instead of damps. We've been here before, and it wasn't for the better.

EWAR isn't perfect at present, but its closer to balanced than its been in the past. Your proposal is inferior to the current model.

PS: I agree with you 100% that shared passives should be disabled and that undampened Scouts should be more readily detected.

And what about knives? They would turn around before we get in range. How about no

Its very kind of you to say this, Magnus. Unfortunately, your math disagrees with your sentiment.

1. Your spreadsheet is wrong. Dust, like eve, truncates values. This means 30.6 = 30 (gallente scout with 1 x cmplx damp)
It messes up quite a few figures of yours actually. It also means that unless you make the tradeoff (scan profile for HP) you will be detected. This is the #1 problem with scouts still, they can have HP and be undetected.

2. Scouts are assault lites because they ALWAYS have the initiative against other suits... ever since 1.8. No, my proposal would make it so that if you fit an scout like an assault you will be deteced by suits that have more eHP/reps and you will have to deal with them on equal footing. No more stealthy tanky scouts. It also makes it so that if you want to be undetected, you will fit for it.

1. Would you like to provide some proof? A poster before you used incorrect values, then posted them for everyone to see how he and his argument were wrong.

2. I am totally open to the fact that my math might be wrong, but don't think for a second I did not double/triple check the figures, and that I will not do the same to you.

1. You're wrong. We've tested every conceivable Scout v Scout permutation. We've concluded that profile and precision values round to the nearest whole number, and ties favor precision.

2. Your assertions here are debatable. The math behind your proposal is not. What you've proposed risks permascan; it marginalizes all but heavily damped Gallente Scouts. Your proposal introduces imbalance; it does not fix EWAR.

1. One example. A single GA Logi with a couple Creodron Flux Active Scanners would clear from entire sockets all Scouts excluding triple damp'd GA. No CA, MN or AM Scout could beat this 200m / 90 degree scan ... and that's not even the focused scanner. Balanced?

2. I've not suggested your math is wrong; all I've done is put it in a spreadsheet. Your premise is what's wrong. If Precision can beat Profile, it will always beat Profile. For this reason, the current EWAR model favors Profile over Precision.

1. Lets get a DEV in here, because unless this has changed, no CCP truncates values. They do for ammo, they do for HP, they do ranges, so what makes this special? Unless you can provide some type of proof, I think we can maintain the status quo here.

2. Just to be certain I did a search on google with the broad terms "Dust 514" and "truncate" and nothing confirmed what you have said... at all. Not one developer has spoken about a change to this, and there is not one video showing proof otherwise.

3. All of that aside, did you completely forget that active scanners were nerfed pretty hard? There is no 360 spin (unless you use passive scans, then it is always), and the duration of scans has also increased. On top of that, active scanning requires you to fit a module and actually use it, exposing yourself. Passive scanning is ALWAYS on.

1. Nothing has changed. You lack knowledge. Grab a friend and test it for yourself.
2. WTF do you intend to prove with that lazy science?
3. Grab an active scanner and test spin scan for yourself. Tell us what you find.

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You're wrong. Do research. Get right.
No shortcuts. No ad hominem. No spin.

Get your facts straight, then we can chat.
Until then, you're wasting everyone's time.

Flux active scanner can be completely avoided by scouts, forever, permanently. The flux would have a 20 dB resolution on a max skilled gallente logi, a triple damped gal would avoid it. The thing is you would have to fit for it though....

Please for the love of god look up what you are writing.

"go find it yourself."

Lets get a DEV in here, because unless this has changed, no CCP truncates values. They do for ammo, they do for HP, they do ranges, so what makes this special? Unless you can provide some type of proof, I think we can maintain the status quo here.

hotfix Charlie EWar calcs direct from Rattati
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i0LbL4DJt6LGioHeUVfuCyJlDK1CHf_n9plFNUtrHOs/edit#gid=0


do those look rounded or truncated...... just going to let you decide