what's the point of a radar if no matter what you do and how many sensor strength modifications you add you will still never catch them.

I mean hell, you can't even detect a sentinel until he's WELL within his optimal range on that thing. But another dropsuit fitted to detect scouts instead of fitting for damage or tank should absolutely be able to detect scouts in exchange for their sacrifice.

This might come in handy for Haerr's cloak concept ...

If cloak is active, set precision = 99 (scouts are effectively ewar blind while cloaked).

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One of few problems with the concept is that the cloak can only affect one scan parameter at a time, which is currently pointed to Profile. If we zeroed profile, we'd muck up low-end profile/precision interplay unless it was offset elsewhere (i.e. damps). I'll check the math :-)

Why would I ever expect you to give me a direct answer... ever. No that would mean you want to have a discussion.

In fact, when we're done crunching numbers, you can put your name on this solution and call it your own. After all, the solution originated in your thread.

Correct. I'm not here to debate the benefits of bad ideas, or to debunk each and every opinion you state as fact. I've explained why you're proposal is flawed. Whether or not you agree with my explanation does not make it less right. Take it or leave it.

That said, you have stumbled upon a legitimate issue which I believe we can solve without creating new, bigger issues. If you wish to participate, feel free. In fact, when we're done crunching numbers, you can put your name on this idea and call it your own.

No, you are here to say you are right and everyone else is wrong, plug your ears, and have no discussion at all. You do not get to solely declare an idea good or bad definitively. I am not sure why you have this delusion of grandeur.

Medium suits being able to passively scan a tanked scout with a token damp is a HUGE issue.

No, I do not want you involved because you cannot see that one simple thing. You have no concept of balance. Just the mere idea that you think that it is currently balanced is a HUGE problem, and you should really GTFO.

You refuse to directly answer questions, you refuse to expand on ideas, you refuse to clarify reasoning. You are not here for discussion, and because of that you need to leave.

Boosting scanners was never your idea, you are just here to make sure that scouts can fit 2 damps and never worry about EWAR, you just want to maintain the status quo. To think I would even want you involved at this point, after you have dodged every question, sidestepped every piece of evidence, and refuse to think that there might even be a problem, is laughable.

So you think 1 damp should make a scout invisible, ok then I guess all scouts should only have 1-2 lowslots then. You see how ridiculous that sounds right?

If you are invisible, you should be a paper towel.

I didn't mean just 1 damp. 1 or 2 though, yes. With 2 damps a scout is paper thin. There are other modules that scouts should be using in lows other than damps. What about code breakers, biotics, scan range, (shock) a little armour maybe? It's not just a case of "all damps" or "super-brick-fit".

Don't forget mediums have more slots.

You refuse to directly answer questions, you refuse to expand on ideas, you refuse to clarify reasoning. You are not here for discussion, and because of that you need to leave.

Whether or not I leave, your House of Cards will fail because its foundation is flawed. I'm not going help you expand upon an unsound idea or waste time answering your cherry-picked questions. I've been very clear as to my reasoning:

Shifting profile/precision interplay to address concerns at the high end of the dB spectrum will create significant issues at the low end of the dB spectrum.

This isn't my opinion. This is simple math. We witnessed the effects very recently with pre-Charlie CA Scout v MN Scout interplay.

... but when they only commit 1-2 lows to damps, are they really committed to dampening, or is that a token effort that should be negated by another suit that sacrifices more?

It has to be rebuilt to be fixed

A) Undampened Scouts are not making sacrifices and can't be scanned by Assaults. Its unfair.

B) Scouts running 2 damps aren't making significant sacrifices. They can still double their HP or more. They can't be scanned by Assaults. Its unfair.

So which is it, Magnus? If you're going to blow hard, at least be consistent about it.

Shifting profile/precision interplay to address concerns at the high end of the dB spectrum will create significant issues at the low end of the dB spectrum.

this would be because in it's current incarnation EWAR is impossible to balance.

It has to be rebuilt to be fixed

No, a scout is paper thin by default, with two lowslots you can still add scout 406 HP to an amarr/gal scout (with 3 hp/sec regen armor), 313 HP to a minmatar, and 290 HP to the caldari, more than doubling their eHP. I don't know why you would think that a scout with over DOUBLE close to TRIPLE their original HP isn't a tanked scout.

You are right in that scouts should be using other modules in their lows, but when they only commit 1-2 lows to damps, are they really committed to dampening, or is that a token effort that should be negated by another suit that sacrifices more?

i didn't say it wasn't tanked, just that it was still low hp. Considering you are talking about completely bricking the suit (other than the damps) to get to about (or a little over) half the average hp of a proto assault I would consider that pretty low on the hp scale.

look the gal scout can do it ewar and brick or speed tank. proto suit- 2 complex precisions, 2 complex dampners, and proto cloak (full ewar ready) proto shotgun, adv sidearm(your choice) basic grenades, remotes or hives, OH THAT IS RIGHT you still have 2 free low slots armor or speed armor puts it up to 460 armor or speed puts it up to 10.01 sprint speed or half and half armor 311 & sprint speed 8.57 oh plus natural regen of 3 :)

caldari and armarr are more ewar and tanking balanced for they roles. amarr- defend or assault a point. caldari long range recon or long range fighting.

however the Minnie have to give up a lot just to one or the other, full ewar means no ehp or speed. tanking means give up damping or precision, trying to do both means you are below the other scouts in every field.


switch the bonus to modules.
normalize the bonus of dampeners and precision enhancers to be equal in strength
normalize the base precision and siganture of scouts to be equal in strength
solved.

that would solve a lot. the only bonus that would be hurt by this is the Minnie nova knife damage. but if ccp willing to they could come out with the other racial knives and give the racial nk damage to each one. so then the Minnie could get a new bonus to a module like the others.

700 eHP with 3 hp/sec armor rep is not low and 30 hp/sec shield (with a small delay). Especially when that suit is 100% invisible and puts out over 500 DPS, runs at over 7m/sec for a long time, with great stamina recharge, while being able to see all non damped suits (aside from the gal/caldari scouts) from 30 meters away. No sacrifice made there.

That is pretty solid mid-HP numbers, with rep, with great shield recharge, and great damage, and immunity to scans, and great ewar, on a suit that didn't focus on anything.

And proto assaults have really high HP, not sure why you would think to compare to that.

I am with you on alot of that.

I totally agree we should normalize the damps/enhancers to ewither 20/20 or 25/25

I fully agree that we should normalize scout profile/scan to 40/40

I also think switching to module based bonuses would probably be enough in that circumstance.... but (you knew there was a but)

The minmatar scout will still be left out in the cold. The caldari/minmatar scouts will still be the best, thisis the reason why I think it really should be 1 EWAR bonus MAX per scout suit.

I also think if minmatar do not get an ewar bonus, they should get 39/39 profile/dampening versus 40/40. This makes them slightly (and I do mean slighty) below base passive scan and above base passive damp. It at least involves them in the EWAR battle.

Those 3hp/s rep won't help you much. If you survive your first fight you will die in the second one if you don't want to wait for 2 minutes.

700eHP sounds like a lot but it really is not.

You won't have much room to fit a good sidearm, grenade, and 2nd equipment.

Your strafe speed will be pathetic.

Stamina regen of the Gal scout really isn't all that great.

You will only be invisible as long as you are cloaked, and as long as you are not engaging anyone.

Since you sacrificed all of your speed you won't even be able to run away when suddenly more than one guy decides to start shooting at you. You won't withstand fire from multiple people, even those 700eHP won't save you.

30m scan range for a scout really is kinda... meh. 30m means that you will be inside the optimal range of pretty much any weapon when people finally start showing up on your radar.

Compared to an Assault you will have sacrificed eHP, regen, and damage in order to accomplish invisibility.

Compared to a Scout you will have sacrificed, regen, speed, scan range, scan precision in order to get more eHP.

700 eHP with 3 hp/sec armor rep is not low and 30 hp/sec shield (with a small delay). Especially when that suit is 100% invisible and puts out over 500 DPS, runs at over 7m/sec for a long time, with great stamina recharge, while being able to see all non damped suits (aside from the gal/caldari scouts) from 30 meters away. No sacrifice made there.

That is pretty solid mid-HP numbers, with rep, with great shield recharge, and great damage, and immunity to scans, and great ewar, on a suit that didn't focus on anything.

And proto assaults have really high HP, not sure why you would think to compare to that.

Not bad, bit too slow to really make good use of the dampening, cloak and 30m scan though. Pretty terrible regen for all that armour. You say it isn't specialised but I would say that is pretty specisalised in dampening and hp, and not a terrible fit.

I would have thought a proto assault would be the natural thing to compare to a tanked proto scout. I can make a Gallente assault with 500ish more hp, 4 times the armour regen and only marginally slower (yes the scout has slightly better shield regen, stamina and hitbox, not game-changers though). Plus the assault has a bonus to it's primary weapon. Now, the weapon bonus may be lackluster, but CCP has expressed a desire to look into this issue.

People seem to think that losing the EWAR battle means immediate death. It doesn't. May I also point out that I supported the idea to slightly reduce assault suit profile. This would allow the assault to sacrifice 100ish hp to dampen below the scout's scans. Not a perfect EWAR solution due to the possibility of being scanned by more powerful scanners, but a pretty decent counter to some of the scout's EWAR I think.

Edit, if your scout fit really is a problem. Wouldn't it make more sense to do something about a scout's ability to stack armour plates, than to attack it's EWAR capabilities?

Magnus: You'll be way faster than the assault
An invisible Gal scout with 700eHP will move at little more than 7m/s. My Min Assault will out-run and out-strafe that.
with no non-ferroscale plates fitted, yes this is true. Maybe if you throw on a kincat... but hey you are sacrificing here, the scout isn't even interested in speed according to that fit and still better at nearly everything and hard to hit

Magnus: you see the assault coming before and he will never see you, without fitting anything for it
If the Assault is stupid enough to never check his corners or too blind to see the purple shimmer, then yes.
This argument has been shot down so many times. Cloaks have different visibility based upon: map, lighting conditions, surrounding terran, time of day. This have been proven on video (Judge) to be near invisible


Magnus: you WILL be invisible to all passive scans
Yes and that is good. Damps should beat enhancers, always. Gal with 2x damps beats Am scout with 2x enhancers.
With just two slots, you end any and all EWAR interplay, that is bad design

Magnus: dodging the proto focused scanner requires you to activate the cloak
The margin is small, but even a Gal scout with 2x damps is not unscannable 100% of the time.
You used protfits didn't you? Protofits doesn't take into account the 10% dampening of the cloak, this brings you down to 14.148, this beats all scanners (the proto gets down to 15 with gallogi lvl 5)

Magnus: you'll have 3x the HP of a non-tanked scout
And still 40% HP less than even the a badly fitted Assault. Plus you will have sacrificed scan range, scan precision, damage, and speed.
No, you still beat the other suits in range, scan precision(can detect undamped amarr/min scouts), faster than that badly fit assault, faster shield regen, free repper, and you are still at the very highest levels of damps in the entire game. This suit did not make a sacrifice to be utterly UNCHALENGED in EWAR.

Magnus: you will have a tiny hitbox
As do all the scouts. No changes to EWAR will fix that.
Doesn't mean it isn't a pretty damn good advantage

Magnus: your strafe speed will still be 4.41m/sec, 0nly .5 m/sec less than before, sitll way faster than that assault.
A properly fit MN Assault will have 4.77m/s and still have 40% more eHP, and better regen. Sure, if you put on more plates your speed will drop, but you eHP advantage will increase even more.
So 40% more HP means 980 HP right? So 280 more eHP means that the lows are all ferroscale plates and one repper and the highs are all shield extenders, these suits do the same damage, move at near the same speed and the assault reps armor a bit faster, but the scout is fully off the tacnet of the assault while seeing the assault through walls 30m away, the scout also can also hack faster, detect undamped min/amarr scouts, dodge WAY more bullets (tiny hitbox) which helps equalize the HP, and can become invisible. Sorry, Your mk.0 is a poor match for this scout.

Magnus: 30m is a long range when you fit nothing to that end
Indeed it is. But these also are parameters we can tweak without giving Assaults the ability to scan scouts. For example, like I said a lot of times already, buffing the Assaults base profile would help a lot without giving even more suits wallhacks.
still need a reason why a 3x complex enhancer assault shouldn't be able to scan an undampened scout

Magnus: I cannot believe you think nearly tripling a suits HP, while still being undetectable, fast, invisible, and doing the same amount of damage as a logi/assault does (sans dmg mods) is defensible.
Tripling a suits HP? What kind of parameter is that? You can triple the HP of an Assault just as well. You can even quadruple the HP of a Logi easily. How is that a problem when a scout does it? And don't say again that he doesn't have to sacrifice anything, because that is not true. Like I said before: You will be as slow as an Assault, deal less damage, have a **** regen, and still have at least 40% less eHP than an Assault.
Can you actually triple an assault's HP while being the very pinnacle of something else at the same time? Can you have a mirade of advantages over other suits all at the same time as tripling an assaults HP? OR does the assault turn into a sentinel without the HMG or resistance bonuses?

The logi? It becomes a sentinel when fully tanked, and now can't fit any equipment and easy to spot (bright yellow) and still can't see much and is easy to detect..... it is basically useless.

Magnus: You'll be way faster than the assault
An invisible Gal scout with 700eHP will move at little more than 7m/s. My Min Assault will out-run and out-strafe that.

Magnus: you see the assault coming before and he will never see you, without fitting anything for it
If the Assault is stupid enough to never check his corners or too blind to see the purple shimmer, then yes.

Magnus: you WILL be invisible to all passive scans
Yes and that is good. Damps should beat enhancers, always. Gal with 2x damps beats Am scout with 2x enhancers.

Magnus: dodging the proto focused scanner requires you to activate the cloak
The margin is small, but even a Gal scout with 2x damps is not unscannable 100% of the time.

Magnus: you'll have 3x the HP of a non-tanked scout
And still 40% HP less than even the a badly fitted Assault. Plus you will have sacrificed scan range, scan precision, damage, and speed.

Magnus: you will have a tiny hitbox
As do all the scouts. No changes to EWAR will fix that.

Magnus: your strafe speed will still be 4.41m/sec, 0nly .5 m/sec less than before, sitll way faster than that assault.
A properly fit MN Assault will have 4.77m/s and still have 40% more eHP, and better regen. Sure, if you put on more plates your speed will drop, but you eHP advantage will increase even more.

Magnus: 30m is a long range when you fit nothing to that end
Indeed it is. But these also are parameters we can tweak without giving Assaults the ability to scan scouts. For example, like I said a lot of times already, buffing the Assaults base profile would help a lot without giving even more suits wallhacks.

Magnus: I cannot believe you think nearly tripling a suits HP, while still being undetectable, fast, invisible, and doing the same amount of damage as a logi/assault does (sans dmg mods) is defensible.
Tripling a suits HP? What kind of parameter is that? You can triple the HP of an Assault just as well. You can even quadruple the HP of a Logi easily. How is that a problem when a scout does it? And don't say again that he doesn't have to sacrifice anything, because that is not true. Like I said before: You will be as slow as an Assault, deal less damage, have a **** regen, and still have at least 40% less eHP than an Assault.

Well argued.