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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
4674
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Posted - 2014.10.09 16:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
I can't get behind anything that will make all scouts visible even when they are making a significant sacrifice to max their dampening. Especially when the only sacrifice the Gal Logi needs to scan them is carry a single piece of equipment.
I don't mind the concept of giving assaults and logis a reason to use EWAR. That is reasonable. Shared passives need to go, and the great majority of players will agree on that.
As a minja, who was not able to play Alpha to Charlie because of EWAR changes that negated my role completely, I cannot get behind any math that doesn't enable a scout to be invisible with significant sacrifice. A scanned scout is a dead scout, period.
If this is intended as a fix for tanked scouts, there are much more precise measures to do so without obliterating all other scouts roles too.
You can always tell a Millford Minja
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
4675
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Posted - 2014.10.09 17:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:One Eyed King wrote:I can't get behind anything that will make all scouts visible even when they are making a significant sacrifice to max their dampening. Especially when the only sacrifice the Gal Logi needs to scan them is carry a single piece of equipment.
I don't mind the concept of giving assaults and logis a reason to use EWAR. That is reasonable. Shared passives need to go, and the great majority of players will agree on that.
As a minja, who was not able to play Alpha to Charlie because of EWAR changes that negated my role completely, I cannot get behind any math that doesn't enable a scout to be invisible with significant sacrifice. A scanned scout is a dead scout, period.
If this is intended as a fix for tanked scouts, there are much more precise measures to do so without obliterating all other scouts roles too. See I think this is part of the problem. Thinking that a non-specialized suit should be able to defeat a specialized suit at its own game. Minmatar scout is NOT a dampening SPECIALIZED suit. The Gallente/Caldari scouts are. The Gallente logi is a SPECIALIZED scanning suit. It SHOULD be able to scan a minmatar/amarr scouts, given adequate skill investment and equipment. If you look at the interplay here, all scouts can always defeat the active scans of other non-specialized suits, but to beat the specialized suit you need to bring a specialized suit of your own. That's the way balance works. I am totally open to discussing changes in the individual scanners (like the Creodon Flux is just stupid), but like I said, that should be in a different thread. Why do you think a a non-specialized suit should be able to defeat a specialized suit? EDIT: Now if you were to suggest that the person scanning (i.e. lets say a galllogi) should light up on the scout's tacnet when scanned, I would say thats a good idea and makes sense, but I am not sure that is possible without a client update.
Specialized suits should have advantages, but for balance reasons they shouldn't completely negate a role.
Minmatar suits are CQC assassins and hackers. You cannot do either if all a Gal Logi has to do is pull out a Focused Scanner, which takes all of an EQ slot and a bit of SP, while a Minja had to level up Dampening and Hacking, not to mention Electronics and Engineering for fitting reasons.
Squishy suits cannot have a role on the battlefield so long as the current Tacnet system is in place if they are scanned, regardless of whether they have a special dampening bonus or not.
Just because Amarr suits have a specialization for armor doesn't mean that all other brands of Sentinal should not be able to tank armor.
In the same way, Minmatar have to make an extreme fitting sacrifice in order to be invisible, as things currently stand, and MUST have the proto cloak active. This is reasonable. It is still a significant sacrifice compared to only needing the 1 piece of EQ that the Gal Logi can use, but it enables us to hack and knife. Its Active Scanner vs Active Dampener. It works.
Your current system would render useless the suit, just as Alpha had.
Any system that negates the role of an entire suit is not a balanced system.
You can always tell a Millford Minja
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
4678
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Posted - 2014.10.10 01:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:
All scouts should be visible at some point, otherwise how do we stop the ninja shotgun bs that ruins games when someone uses it?
Do you like having someone running around who cant be seen or detected in any way who can also one shot the vast majority of suits?
Do you think its fair or good gameplay that the only "counter" to invisible one shotting scouts is to also run a damped scout and depend on dumb luck for him to run into your vision before you run into his? Then half the time when he does run into your vision your own weapons fire makes it very likely that he can evade you just due to weapon flash making the stupidly variable cloak effect practically invisible for long enough for him to slip away?
Also that "sacrifice" dampening/cloaking suits make is no sacrifice at all. You are sacrificing survivability for MORE SURVIVABILITY. That's not a sacrifice, its an investment.
Also I disagree that passive scans shouldnt be shared. Passive scan fits actually sacrifice a great deal more than damp fits, because they can be easily detected by anyone and have very low hp values at the same time. Passive scans can frequently be outdpsed and out healthed by comparable dampening suits.
The all or nothing EWAR we have now is the real reason we cant balance EWAR right now, if you see my post above thats an actual workable fix that puts a mechanics based counter to shotgun cloakers and at the same time gives damp/cloak scouts the ability to minimize the vulnerability the precision counter inflicts on them.
I want to emphasize that there is NO COUNTER to a scout using cloaks and dampeners in the game right now that isnt using the same fit and depending on dumb luck.
A running cloaked scout is visible. Period. They may be less visible, but they are visible, especially in darker settings where they glow. Plus, cloaks have a timer, and require at least 50% of that timer to be full in order to use the cloak.
There are many more counters than having to run another scout. An HMG heavy would be a prime example. They can't be one shoted, they simply turn after the first shot, and spray the HMG, and that is one dead scout.
Squads are another way. That shotgun scout is going to be much less successful when encountering a group because it is very likely a team member will see the scout before they are even able to get off a shot, even while cloaked (you know, with their eyes, because those should matter as much if not more than the tacnet). If not, then that shotgun blast and a dead red will be readily apparent. That equals a dead scout.
Jumping and backpeddaling is also a good counter. That shotgun only has a limited range. After the first shot, jumping while backing up and using whatever light weapon you choose is a good way to kill the scout before they can get off a second shot.
PLCs and MDs are great because of their splash damage, which given a dampened scouts HP is rather effective.
If that shotgun scout has enough HP that they would easily survive an attack, then they are not so dampened that they can't be scanned, or they are awfully slow.
If scouts were that OP, PC would be full of them instead of heavy/logi combos. But in PC, that is the meta, because that is much more powerful.
TL:DR There are lots of counters, your eyes and being conscientious enough to check out your flanks and back are just two. Not to mention working with others, and heavies.
If there are any fixes to be done, focusing the bonuses to modules is a good idea, as is doubling the speed penalty on armor plates for scouts. Making all scouts assault lights is not an answer to the problem.
You can always tell a Millford Minja
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
4718
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Posted - 2014.10.11 04:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:You claimed that only Scouts can participate in EWAR. Great, now you are going to be pedantic like a teenager losing an argument. Adipem Nothi wrote:
I've demonstrated that your claim is false.
Why are you flaming?
No you haven't. Like I said, you cherry picked some examples, and I just showed you how there is absolutely no interplay here. Go scout or go home for EWAR. The fact that you are trying to dispute this common knowledge with misleading cherry picked examples just shows that you have no interest in balance, only supremacy. You think 1-2 lowslots is enough sacrifice for a suit to be beyond reproach. 1-2 lowslots dedicated is a middle of the ground jack of all trades fitting, and isn't worthy of being unchallengable. Let me guess, you run a scout most of the time.... your bias is showing.
Considering he has readily worked with Rattati regarding scout balancing, and has offered reasonable solutions to situations like the Cal/Gal changes in Charlie, that essentially nerfed those two suits so Amarr and Minmatar could have a role, I think he is probably very level headed.
Especially considering someone whose bias is so strong that you are willing to negate an entire role simply because it causes you problems.
Remember, CCP has data that they can look to, and if they see that what you are complaining of isn't an issue, you really just come off as out of touch with what the real issue is.
You can always tell a Millford Minja
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
4719
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Posted - 2014.10.11 05:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:One Eyed King wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:You claimed that only Scouts can participate in EWAR. Great, now you are going to be pedantic like a teenager losing an argument. Adipem Nothi wrote:
I've demonstrated that your claim is false.
Why are you flaming?
No you haven't. Like I said, you cherry picked some examples, and I just showed you how there is absolutely no interplay here. Go scout or go home for EWAR. The fact that you are trying to dispute this common knowledge with misleading cherry picked examples just shows that you have no interest in balance, only supremacy. You think 1-2 lowslots is enough sacrifice for a suit to be beyond reproach. 1-2 lowslots dedicated is a middle of the ground jack of all trades fitting, and isn't worthy of being unchallengable. Let me guess, you run a scout most of the time.... your bias is showing. Considering he has readily worked with Rattati regarding scout balancing, and has offered reasonable solutions to situations like the Cal/Gal changes in Charlie, that essentially nerfed those two suits so Amarr and Minmatar could have a role, I think he is probably very level headed. Especially considering someone whose bias is so strong that you are willing to negate an entire role simply because it causes you problems. Remember, CCP has data that they can look to, and if they see that what you are complaining of isn't an issue, you really just come off as out of touch with what the real issue is. Not one person has shown how this is anyway negates a scout role.... Scouts can still be fully undetecable Scouts can still have amazing passive scanning ability (in both range and precision) Scouts can still be the fastest Scouts can still run the longest Scouts still have the smallest hitboxes Scouts still retain their extra equipment slot Scouts still retain equal damage to logi/assaults Scouts can still brick tank Scouts still have the highest default ewar stats scouts still have their insane shield regen Tell me, how exactly is this a HUGE nerf? It isn't, it just isn't a tiny adjustment that will do nothing in the current metagame, and that pisses of the newfound scout community. The only changes this proposes is not being able to do so many things at the same time. This proposal makes it so that to beat every other suit on the field in a catagory, a scout must sacrifice alot, rather than barely anything.
There is ONE scout that doesn't have to sacrifice as much, and that is the Gal scout.
This has a lot to do with their number of Low Slots, the greater utility of Lows, and the superiority of armor to shield modules.
All the rest have to make a significant sacrifice in order to be invisible, and can only do so with a proto cloak active.
It is already set up that way. A number of scouts spent days, if not longer, running through the numbers and making sure this happened.
Adipem is a big reason that you don't see Gal scouts tanking 1000 HP and still being tacnet invisible and getting two shots off with a shotgun, and he RUNS the darn build. Yet, he made sure it was nerfed because it was a problem.
At most, what needs to be done is to focus EWAR bonuses to mods, and/or double the speed penalty on plates just for scouts. A complete re work of EWAR is not necessary.
You can always tell a Millford Minja
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
4719
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Posted - 2014.10.11 05:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:One Eyed King wrote:
There is ONE scout that doesn't have to sacrifice as much, and that is the Gal scout.
This has a lot to do with their number of Low Slots, the greater utility of Lows, and the superiority of armor to shield modules.
All the rest have to make a significant sacrifice in order to be invisible, and can only do so with a proto cloak active.
It is already set up that way. A number of scouts spent days, if not longer, running through the numbers and making sure this happened.
Adipem is a big reason that you don't see Gal scouts tanking 1000 HP and still being tacnet invisible and getting two shots off with a shotgun, and he RUNS the darn build. Yet, he made sure it was nerfed because it was a problem.
At most, what needs to be done is to focus EWAR bonuses to mods, and/or double the speed penalty on plates just for scouts. A complete re work of EWAR is not necessary.
Two lowslots is not a "large sacrifice". Or lets say two slots is a sacrifice, can I "sacrifice" 4 slots, a much large number, on a logistics or assault suit to passively pick up the scout who only sacrificed two lowslots? What about 5 slots... surely that is enough to counter only a two slot investment... I mean that is the entire tank. Or are you saying sacrificing the entire tank of a suit in order to pick up scouts is less of a sacrifice than a scout sacrificing 1-2 lowslots? Also please remember, the extra equipment slot was put on the scouts so that they WOULDN'T have to sacrifice to run a cloak, so a cloak is no sacrifice at all.
In order for a Minja to get below a Gal Logi with a focused scanner (that is 1 slot FYI), I need to run 3 Complex Damps (which is all of my LS on an Adv or Proto suit) AND have my proto cloak active.
That is a hell of a sacrifice! Not only do I need to use 4 slots and lots of a meager fitting capacity, in order to do so, I need to have Dampening to level 5, Electronics to level 5, Engineering to level 5, Minmatar scout to level 4 or 5, and lastly cloaks to level 5. That is HUGE SP expense!
All the Gal Logi has to do is have level 5 Active Scanning and ONE slot!
In the same way that scouts weren't meant to tank as much as an Assaults, Assaults should not be able to EWAR as successfully as a scout.
As it stands, Assaults CAN beat scans of scouts with no precision mods if they so choose. They are not meant to beat ALL scans.
You can always tell a Millford Minja
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
4770
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Posted - 2014.10.12 20:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
For EWAR to work for one class, in favor of one class and to perpetuate gross overall game imbalance all scouts need to be able to beat all scans as well as retain all the other advantages of the class.
FTFY.
A scanned scout is a dead scout.
Why do you think Amarr and Minmatar were completely irrelevant between Alpha and Charlie?
Because Cal scouts could scan and broadcast their locations to every heavy in their squad.
If scouts were the most broken OP suit in the game, they would be a majority of fielded mercs in PC, but they are not. They are not even a majority.
When you come back with some real data to support your claim, let us know.
You can always tell a Millford Minja
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
4785
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Posted - 2014.10.13 22:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jebus McKing wrote:Magnus: You'll be way faster than the assault
An invisible Gal scout with 700eHP will move at little more than 7m/s. My Min Assault will out-run and out-strafe that.
Magnus: you see the assault coming before and he will never see you, without fitting anything for it
If the Assault is stupid enough to never check his corners or too blind to see the purple shimmer, then yes.
Magnus: you WILL be invisible to all passive scans
Yes and that is good. Damps should beat enhancers, always. Gal with 2x damps beats Am scout with 2x enhancers.
Magnus: dodging the proto focused scanner requires you to activate the cloak
The margin is small, but even a Gal scout with 2x damps is not unscannable 100% of the time.
Magnus: you'll have 3x the HP of a non-tanked scout
And still 40% HP less than even the a badly fitted Assault. Plus you will have sacrificed scan range, scan precision, damage, and speed.
Magnus: you will have a tiny hitbox
As do all the scouts. No changes to EWAR will fix that.
Magnus: your strafe speed will still be 4.41m/sec, 0nly .5 m/sec less than before, sitll way faster than that assault.
A properly fit MN Assault will have 4.77m/s and still have 40% more eHP, and better regen. Sure, if you put on more plates your speed will drop, but you eHP advantage will increase even more.
Magnus: 30m is a long range when you fit nothing to that end
Indeed it is. But these also are parameters we can tweak without giving Assaults the ability to scan scouts. For example, like I said a lot of times already, buffing the Assaults base profile would help a lot without giving even more suits wallhacks.
Magnus: I cannot believe you think nearly tripling a suits HP, while still being undetectable, fast, invisible, and doing the same amount of damage as a logi/assault does (sans dmg mods) is defensible.
Tripling a suits HP? What kind of parameter is that? You can triple the HP of an Assault just as well. You can even quadruple the HP of a Logi easily. How is that a problem when a scout does it? And don't say again that he doesn't have to sacrifice anything, because that is not true. Like I said before: You will be as slow as an Assault, deal less damage, have a **** regen, and still have at least 40% less eHP than an Assault.
Well argued.
You can always tell a Millford Minja
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
4813
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Posted - 2014.10.15 20:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Jebus McKing wrote:
If a scout catches you form behind he doesn't even need a cloak.
Then cloaks aren't neccessary for scouts to do their job?
That isn't true. Scouts don't just slay. They infiltrate and hack.
Pre 1.8, I would often take several minutes to skirt the entire map, as close to the redline as possible, just to get to a far off CRU and/or objective to give my team a better chance, only to have someone spot me from 100 m or more away after all my effort and take me out in the blink of an eye.
Just because you don't see everything I do as a team mate, and only pay attention to the scouts that are killing you, doesn't mean that killing is the only scout role.
I don't end up on the top of leader boards with 10 kills or less because I everyone else is just that bad, there are other ways to score WP and win matches.
You can always tell a Millford Minja
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