@ Jebus

May have found a way to make Haerr's cloak nerf work. Would you mind spot-checking this for potential problems?

Why are dampners @ 28% on your thing?

Also, here is the link to the tool I made, try it out.

How did you make your data anonymous?

Not sure what you mean here.

Does the document have personal information about the people viewing it?

The icons up at the top right?

If a viewer is logged in, it'll display his user name. Otherwise, it'll assign the unauthenticated user an anonymous creature.

@ Jebus

May have found a way to make Haerr's cloak nerf work. Would you mind spot-checking this for potential problems?

Looks pretty solid so far.

There are only 2 things you might want to consider:

1) Buff Logi precision to 42db so that a Logi with 3x precision can scan an Assault with 2x damps.

2) I'm thinking about buffing Focused scanner to 19db.
This means that a CA/MN scout can never dodge a GA Logi + Foc scanner. (At least CA scout still has all of its high slots for tanking.)
GA scout needs 3x damps, AM scout needs 4x damps.

I'm not sure here if I am in favour of the scanner or the scout.

On the one hand if we leave it like you initially proposed then MN/AM would already need 3x damps to avoid the GA Logi + Foc, which is quite a commitment. (Not so much for CA/GA which can dodge it with just 2x damps.)

On the other hand I kinda somehow like the idea of having one very specialized and situational scanner type that can still scan those scouts. (Except a GA scout with 3x damps, which would then be the only truly 100% invisible scout.)

I don't know. What do you think?

You know what you stated is exactly what is written in the OP right?

So I put together a few charts as I did before for swarms (4 missiles for all/increasing damage for lower tiers... yep that was me) and the amarr scout bonus issue (was a while ago).

This time it is exploring how EWAR is fundamentally broken right now, and how we could bring it back to balance so that other suits can also be a part of this metagame.

Here is a graph of what EWAR looks like now. The (p) stands for precision and the (d) stands for dampening. As you can see, it is quite easy to avoid all scan with minimal sacrifice, and there is no sacrifice great enough to try to keep up.

1) Change a few scan profile/precision numbers.
The scout goes to 40/40, logi to 45/45, assault to 50/50, and heavy suits to 55/55.

2) Change precision dampners to mirror the values of precision enhancers. (i.e. cmplx-20%, enhanced-15%, basic-10%)

3) Change amarr precision bonus to 3% per level

Doing these changes would alter the above chart from what it is to THIS. Much more balanced, dampening specialized suit can still become fully undetectable, and even an assault can pick up on scouts who don't dampen at all.

4) Change active scanners to mirror the new values, change gallente logi bonus to 3% / level)
value/{gal logi value}
Proto focused = 20 / {17}
Proto = 26 / {22}
Advanced = 30 / {25}
Standard = 40 / {34}

Scanners are now useful for all suits again, but can easily be dampened to not be seen (1 cmplx damp on a sentinel evades the standard scanner on a non-bonused suit)

Some examples of the new system.

An assault with 1 complex enhancer picks up undampened amarr/minnie scouts, 2 enhancerss picks up the caldari and gallente ones too. Basically assault scouts now have to deal with prepared normal assaults.

A logi with 3 cmplx dampners picks up all amarr/minnie scouts with two dampners and cal/gal with 1 dampner. Useful for watching a squads back.

A crazy caldari sentinel that fits all complex precision enhancers could pick up undamned scouts (and even amarr/minnie scouts who go with only 1 damp). I would say that is one heck of a sacrifice, but it could potentially pay off.

EDIT: Changed proto active non-focused scanner to not pick up minmatar/amarr scouts when they fit to avoid scans.
EDIT: Update OP

Remember, this will allow scout to remain the very best at any single category of EWAR, but now they have to make trade-offs like every other suit in the game.

EWAR should never be a go scout or go home proposition.

1. You really need to stop acting like you give one bit of a care about EWAR interplay. You care about scout superiority and that is it, this has been proven time and again, so please for everyone's sanity stop.

2. I mean are you freaking kidding with those numbers? OH good, now dampeners are even more powerful than precision!!

3. lol @ that sheet. Complete garbage.

1. Ad Hominem
2. You bet, and EWAR baseline is intact. Does it make you angry?
3. Which parts aren't balanced?

3. 28% damps versus 20% enhancers. The counter to damps are enhancers. you want to make the counter only 72% as effective.
That is a joke right? I mean no one is really that stupid are they?

I think we fundamentally disagree on the premise.

Precision enhancers give you the ability to see enemies through walls (wallhack) and on your radar. They give you an advantage over other players.

And profile dampeners are the counters to precision enhancers. Not the other way around. They enable you to avoid a disadvantage, they don't give you an advantage.

Let's not forget ...

That advantage is shared among squadmates.

In Magnus terms, that's a 600% benefit ... 100% of the time!
Dampening doesn't have any 600% benefits! How is that fair!?

:: Flailing! ::

Dude, what?

It's 1:30am so it maybe is too late and I am too tired to find what exactly you are referring to.

Would you mind pointing it out for me?

1) interesting interplay for ewar between all suits

2) scanners that are useful

With your system, a Logi with 3x enhancers gives his whole squad the ability to scan AM/MN scouts if they don't completely ruin their fitting by using 3x damps.


What you propose is that X enhancers give you and your whole squad an advantage of X, and the counter, which only works on a personal level, has to be X+1 and you don't gain anything except avoiding one disadvantage while making yourself an easier target because you are using damps instead of plates.

With your system, how is an Assault ever going to be able to hide from MN/CA scouts (the non-precision specialized suits) with precision enhancers? That's right, they CANNOT.

Even an Assault with 4x damps can't beat a MN/CA scout with 2x enhancers!!!

How is that interesting interplay?

Scanners are useful RIGHT NOW.
A proto scanner (WITHOUT GA Logi bonus) can already scan undampened MN/AM scouts (with max level dampening skills), Assaults/Logis that don't have at least 2x damps, and Sentinels/Commandos that don't have at least 3x damps. That is already 18 out of 20 of the specialized suits, even if they use a considerable amount of slots for dampening.

And the focused scanner? Assaults, Logis, Sentinels, and Commandos CANNOT dodge it, ever, even without the GA Logi bonus, RIGHT NOW.

And focused scanner with GA Logi bonus? CA/GA scouts already either need 3x damps, or 2x damps +cloak , and AM/MN need either 5x damps (!!!) or 3x damps +cloak.



I'm sorry but I just don't see how buffing precision/scanning is going to improve balance / fix EWAR / create interesting interplay at all.

Part of the reason why shared passive scan is b.s. and it needs to go. 1 suit getting free always on intel is, sharing it with the squad is 10 times worse than spinner active scanners ever were. That is called permascan, and it is B.S. gameplay. The suit being scanner doesn't even get notified that they are being scanned. Basically everyone in your squad is now a scout permanently.

Right now that same assault is pictked up by an amarr scout with 1x CPE, this same assault who sacrificed 4x lowslots shows up on 6 peoples screens.

I never EVER seen a "you have been scanned" anymore... ever. The only time anyone attempts to scan me anymore is with a vehicle. No scanners are just crap right now and no one uses them. The reason? Why equip something that is limited in field of view, is only working a faction of the time, requires you to put away your weapon, and is not very strong when you can just fit a scout and suffer none of those problems?

Right now the system is broke, if you are not in a dampened scout you ARE permascanned to up to 6 people at pretty much all times without even knowing it, with absolutely no way to counter it. The only reason people aren't super upset is because there isn't a notification at the top of the screen, but that is actually even worse.

Dude. Pretty please with sugar on top. Don't help.

The longer this thread goes, the farther I move from the opinion that the only adjustment scouts need is removal of one equipment slot and closer to the opinion of F scouts, nerf them on all points. Speed, profile, cpu/pg, slots and weapon access. The blatant self-service when supposedly discussing "balancing" in any thread that attempts to do so is disgusting.

a logi at least should be able to catch my undamped Min scout.

I understand where you're coming from in terms of the biased statements of many "balance" discussions. It is kind of funny that you post your reply after I point out my disappointment in the fact that when I use my scout suit (my primary suit) I slip under most passive scans, with other scouts being the primary group to spot me.
Honestly, a logi at least should be able to catch my undamped Min scout.

Also, the binary (yes/no, true/false) nature of the scan is harmful to gameplay, there should be at least a 5% chance of getting caught on radar no matter what the profile and precision of the two suits (or 1-16 suits, and one scanner involved); as well as at least a 5% chance of avoiding a scan.

Any Logi with 1x precision enhancer can scan an undampened, uncloaked MN/AM scout.

Make it 2x precision enhancers and the Logi can even scan them while cloaked.

Make it 3x precision and AM/MN scouts will need 2x damps to avoid the Logi scans while not cloaked.

Sorry, I concede that my information may be outdated and wrong.

Last I checked was a while ago (before cloaks were implemented), and I only really checked with a Min logi. The numbers may well have changed since then, but at the time I was deciding whether or not to invest in precision enhancers, and after doing the math, found extremely little reason to do so.

The simple fact that keeps being swept aside about the passive scan aspect is that even with stacked prec theres no enhancement to range , only precision, so even if that logi (or other medium) detects a non or single damped scout that scout is already on top of that medium, with a faster movement speed, smaller hitbox, light or sidearm weapon to use AND mix n match equipment to use.

EDIT: AND odds are good the scout is almost equal in hp, since the medium had to drop to stack the other mods, AND the scout will ALWAYS have the medium passively lit since the base profile is signifcantly lower.

Yes, and the fact that the other 5 assaults in that Logis squad have to sacrifice absolutely NOTHING and still receive all scanning bonuses is also too easily forgotten most of the time.

I don't want to defend scouts. I too think the gap between scouts EWAR and mediums EWAR is too big. But what I hate the most about scouts is that their precision is too good and that there is no way to avoid a scouts (or GA Logis) wallhack without ruining a fit.

And that is exactly the reason why I despise the idea of buffing precision even further. Giving more suits wallhacks cannot be the solution.