And why did this thread suddenly go from being about expanding ewar access to frames outside of Scouts to being about balancing ewar amongst just Scouts?

"to see you and kill you in a fatsuit 100% of the time."

^ Your exact words, sport. What else could this possibly mean?

Scout sees and kills fatsuit 100% of the time?
Fatsuit sees and kills Scout 100% of the time?

That 100% of the time part sure is exciting.
But what exactly do you mean by 100% of the time?

OP isn't interested in better EWAR interplay among MedFrames or fixing "assault lite".
His goal is to make all Scouts easier to scan, even low-HP dampened ones.

This thread is and has always been about nerfing Scouts.
All Scouts. Not just the problematic ones.

* Nerf Profile Dampeners by 5%
* Nerf Scout Scan Profile by 5 dB
* Nerf AM Scout Precision by 10%

---

Amadeuss EWAR might work if:

* Replace GA Scout precision bonus
* Reduce GA Logi precision bonus
* Fully Fix Spin Scan
* Disable Shared Passives

So I put together a few charts as I did before for swarms (4 missiles for all/increasing damage for lower tiers... yep that was me) and the amarr scout bonus issue (was a while ago).

This time it is exploring how EWAR is fundamentally broken right now, and how we could bring it back to balance so that other suits can also be a part of this metagame.

Here is a graph of what EWAR looks like now. The (p) stands for precision and the (d) stands for dampening. As you can see, it is quite easy to avoid all scan with minimal sacrifice, and there is no sacrifice great enough to try to keep up.

1) Change a few scan profile/precision numbers.
The scout goes to 40/40, logi to 45/45, assault to 50/50, and heavy suits to 55/55.

2) Change precision dampners to mirror the values of precision enhancers. (i.e. cmplx-20%, enhanced-15%, basic-10%)

3) Change amarr precision bonus to 3% per level

Doing these changes would alter the above chart from what it is to THIS. Much more balanced, dampening specialized suit can still become fully undetectable, and even an assault can pick up on scouts who don't dampen at all.

4) Change active scanners to mirror the new values, change gallente logi bonus to 3% / level)
value/{gal logi value}
Proto focused = 20 / {17}
Proto = 26 / {22}
Advanced = 30 / {25}
Standard = 40 / {34}

Scanners are now useful for all suits again, but can easily be dampened to not be seen (1 cmplx damp on a sentinel evades the standard scanner on a non-bonused suit)

Some examples of the new system.

An assault with 1 complex enhancer picks up undampened amarr/minnie scouts, 2 enhancerss picks up the caldari and gallente ones too. Basically assault scouts now have to deal with prepared normal assaults.

A logi with 3 cmplx dampners picks up all amarr/minnie scouts with two dampners and cal/gal with 1 dampner. Useful for watching a squads back.

A crazy caldari sentinel that fits all complex precision enhancers could pick up undamned scouts (and even amarr/minnie scouts who go with only 1 damp). I would say that is one heck of a sacrifice, but it could potentially pay off.

EDIT: Changed proto active non-focused scanner to not pick up minmatar/amarr scouts when they fit to avoid scans.
EDIT: Update OP

Remember, this will allow scout to remain the very best at any single category of EWAR, but now they have to make trade-offs like every other suit in the game.

EWAR should never be a go scout or go home proposition.

The game does math weird. Protofits is hooked up to the SDE so it gives you the correct numbers.

You are wrong.

Also, the 23.63 is without a cloak. +Cloak should put scout under 3x precision

OP isn't interested in better EWAR interplay among MedFrames or fixing "assault lite".
His goal is to make all Scouts easier to scan, even low-HP dampened ones.

This thread is and has always been about nerfing Scouts.
All Scouts. Not just the problematic ones.

* Nerf Profile Dampeners by 5%
* Nerf Scout Scan Profile by 5 dB
* Nerf AM Scout Precision by 10%

---

If precision can beat profile, it will always beat profile. We witnessed this prior to 1.8 with spin scanning Logis, and we saw it again prior to Charlie with CA Scout spam. If low-dB profile/precision interplay is shifted to favor precision, precision scans will become the norm and counter-recon units will lock Scouts out of play. This is the precise cause of MinScout underutilization prior to Charlie. This proposal is an attempt to replace the best EWAR system we've seen to date with one which repeats past failures.

The underlined statement is so incredible mouthbreathing dumb I don't even know how to approach it.... care to expand on that or are you actually proud of that mindnumbing statement? I mean, there are like a few thousands of ways to fit each suit, and each suit has different bonuses, and there are variation of each module, and you somehow pull out this nugget of idiocy?


You are so full of crap it isn't funny, all you have done all thread is obfuscate and misdirect in order to keep complaining about something you obviously don't even fully understand. Why would I say you don't fully understand it?

As Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p highlighted, you thought that 3 complex precision enhancers picking up a scout with 1 cloak and 1 damp was "reasonable" when you were under the delusion of that being possible right now. When I pointed out your failure of simple arithmetic and how your fudged "reasonable" numbers you changed the subject.

You couldn't care less about balance, and you have proven that over and over. This thread is about keeping the interplay between scouts more or less the same, with a small BUFF to amarr scout (which for some reason you can't comprehend), and allowing medium suits to detect poorly fir scouts with cloaks.

I am sure your next response will be "PERMASCAN!!!" which has already been disproven.

Holy cow, do you even know how to read? Seriously....

He claimed scouts had a 23.85 profile WITH cloak and 1 damp, the he claimed that a logistics suit with 3 x complex precision enhancers could scan it, then he said it was "reasonable." I then showed him how he was wrong and the actual profile was 21.** (I forget), but that what he thought was "reasonable" was what my OP would accomplish... he then changed the subject. Try to keep up.


I think that this is enough to prove that if there should be anyone who has a right to revert to ad homonyms, it's myself.

The underlined statement is so incredible mouthbreathing dumb I don't even know how to approach it.... care to expand on that or are you actually proud of that mindnumbing statement? I mean, there are like a few thousands of ways to fit each suit, and each suit has different bonuses, and there are variation of each module, and you somehow pull out this nugget of idiocy?

Are you retarded? Serious question because Im beginning to think that this isn't a troll. If you have ever played this game, you should understand that it is based entirely off of min/maxing. Meaning, in a competitive environment, if there is a way for a scout to be scanned, that scout will be scanned, and will remain scanned all the time.

As Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p highlighted, you thought that 3 complex precision enhancers picking up a scout with 1 cloak and 1 damp was "reasonable" when you were under the delusion of that being possible right now. When I pointed out your failure of simple arithmetic and how your fudged "reasonable" numbers you changed the subject.
Putting words into my mouth. Max skills-3 Precision should detect one damp, but not 1 damp+ any cloak. That is very fair, considering shared passives.

Throwing tantrums again, I see?
Please report me again for pointing out that you conduct yourself like a spoiled toddler.

EWAR tables are currently structured such that at max values, Profile beats Precision. Meaning a max-skilled Scout who commits his lows to damps can beat all scans. Competitive scans "keep Scouts honest" by encouraging them to run damps over plates. The current system could use some tuning here-and-there, but it is fundamentally healthy.

Your system shifts interplay to favor precision over profile, meaning a max-skilled non-Gallente Scout who commits his lows to damps will still be scanned. If a Scout is going to getting scanned whether or not he's running damps, he won't run damps. This is what I mean in the underlined portion above, and this is why your proposal is fundamentally flawed and unhealthy.

My responses are underlined.

we dont need to "fix" ewar.. we just need to nerf scouts and buff active scanners

When a extremely specialized scanner on a specialized suit just might be able to pick up some non-specialized scouts for 12.5% of the time if the scanner's extremely narrow view is pointed in the right direction. You claim "Permascan"

Opinions, hyperbole and ad hominem in response to plain-and-simple facts.

You're bad at this, Magnus. And you should feel bad.

Narrow view? Ever get around to testing spin scan?
Or is that on your list of inconvenient facts to ignore?

Apart for your "12.5% narrow view" claim, there is nothing of substance in your response to debate. Explain for me again how overhauling EWAR to marginalize all but GA Scouts is good for balance?

So I guess once again I can expect you to ignore the argument in my prior post, and instead use an ad hominem again (see thats the proper usage)? (check)

So I guess you won't address how you think a logi with 3 complex enhancers SHOULD be able to scan a scout with 1 cloak and 1 dampner on it? (check)

I guess you will not address how what you claim is an amarr scout nerf is actually a buff? (check)

I guess you won't address how incredibly lobsided the current system is towards dampening? (check)

No, the way EWAR is set up right now is so OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of dampening it isn't funny. By default ONLY scouts have a profile that is 12.5% lower than precision, all other suits are either equal or precision is better than profile.

By default, precision enhancers are 20% less powerful than profile dampners.

On top of all of these insanely unbalanced mechanics, cloaks also add a 10% non-stacking-penalized reduction to profile.

The funniest part about all of this though? In my proposal (which you agreed the results of are "reasonable") dampening specialized suits can always win... always.

1. No, the way EWAR is set up right now is so OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of dampening it isn't funny. By default ONLY scouts have a profile that is 12.5% lower than precision, all other suits are either equal or precision is better than profile.

2. By default, precision enhancers are 20% less powerful than profile dampners. On top of all of these insanely unbalanced mechanics, cloaks also add a 10% non-stacking-penalized reduction to profile.

3. The funniest part about all of this though? In my proposal (which you agreed the results of are "reasonable") dampening specialized suits can always win... always. But no, you act like this huge entitled baby when the absolutel supremecy of scouts is challenged:

4. When a extremely specialized scanner on a specialized suit just might be able to pick up some non-specialized scouts for 12.5% of the time if the scanner's extremely narrow view is pointed in the right direction. You claim "Permascan"

5. When a specialized scout suit (amarr) would be able to see specialized hiding suits some of the time (cal/gallente) you claim"permascan".

6. All you have done all thread is plug your ears and stomp your feet, fail at arithmetic, and then agree with the OP on accident.

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a form of criticism directed at something about the person one is criticizing, rather than something (potentially, at least) independent of that person. When used inappropriately, it is a fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized.

Opinions, hyperbole and ad hominem in response to plain-and-simple facts.

You're bad at this, Magnus. And you should feel bad.

When you and I first met prior to 1.8, you were very upset that AM Scout had no meaningful role or specialty. In your mind today, do the two lone instances above constitute a specialty?

PS: You were right about the AM Scout. From 1.8 through 1.8 Bravo, there was no function is could perform substantially better than the GA Scout. The AM Scout finally found its specialty in Hotfix Charlie. Progress, yes?

That would be an ad hominem because you do not address the arguments you purely dismiss it based upon character assassination. This is something you have done repeatedly in this thread.

Are you the same person as Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p

You say the current system is broken.
You say that your system is better.
I say these are opinions stated as fact.

Bottom Line:
Any system wherein precision trumps profile is a fundamentally flawed system.

So here is a rundown of the facts (always assuming proto because you balance around proto):

1) Profile dampening is much more powerful than precision mods

2) There are more modules that effect profile than precision

3) Scouts are the only suits with lower profiles than precision

4) 3 x complex enhancers on an assault will not pick up a cal/gal scout with just a cloak on

5) An assault can never pick up any scout with only one damp on

6) A logitics requires 2 complex precision enhancers to see a AM/min with just a cloak, 3 to see a gal/cal with only a cloak

7) A logistics can never passively see a scout with a cloak and just one damp

8) With only 1 cloak and 1 damp, gal/cal scouts are immune to all passive scans

9) Scanners are rarely if ever used

Yet you say EWAR is in a good place, looks to me like one hell of a broken system.

A few more FACTS

10) OP proposes no possible permascan scenario

11) OP allows scouts to still hide from all passive scans

12) OP allows gal suit to hide from gal logi

13) OP slightly buffs the amarr scout

Now address these PROVEN facts, or GTFO.

Cherry picking facts does not fix a fundamentally flawed premise.

So here is a rundown of the facts (always assuming proto because you balance around proto):

1) Profile dampening is much more powerful than precision mods

2) There are more modules that effect profile than precision

3) Scouts are the only suits with lower profiles than precision

4) 3 x complex enhancers on an assault will not pick up a cal/gal scout with just a cloak on

5) An assault can never pick up any scout with only one damp on

6) A logitics requires 2 complex precision enhancers to see a AM/min with just a cloak, 3 to see a gal/cal with only a cloak

7) A logistics can never passively see a scout with a cloak and just one damp

8) With only 1 cloak and 1 damp, gal/cal scouts are immune to all passive scans

9) Scanners are rarely if ever used

Yet you say EWAR is in a good place, looks to me like one hell of a broken system.

A few more FACTS

10) OP proposes no possible permascan scenario

11) OP allows scouts to still hide from all passive scans

12) OP allows gal suit to hide from gal logi

13) OP slightly buffs the amarr scout

All scouts are EWAR specialized suits, and thus should be the masters of eWAR in almost every way.

Sentinels are CQC combat specialized suits, and thus should be the masters of CQC combat in almost every way.

Assaults are mid range skirmishing specialized suits, with the versatility to go from mid range to long range to short range at a moments notice, and the excel at this in almost every way.

Logis are support specialized suits and thus should be the masters of support in almost every way.

Commandos are suppression specialists and thus should be the masters of suppression in almost every way

All scouts are EWAR specialized suits, and thus should be the masters of eWAR in almost every way.

Sentinels are CQC combat specialized suits, and thus should be the masters of CQC combat in almost every way.

Assaults are mid range skirmishing specialized suits, with the versatility to go from mid range to long range to short range at a moments notice, and the excel at this in almost every way.

Logis are support specialized suits and thus should be the masters of support in almost every way.

Commandos are suppression specialists and thus should be the masters of suppression in almost every way