I really hope CCP is smarter than the OP ...

I really hope CCP is smarter than the OP because if scouts are rendered useless again, the vast majority of players will go hmg heavy.

If you recall long ago during the dark days of logi slayers they made up a majority of the battlefield because they were the best killers. If scouts get kicked in the nuts hmg heavies will be everywhere because they are the best killers. And with scouts roles reduced the only heavy spam counter will be more heavy spam.

I'm not saying it's perfect now but at last there is variety. Two teams of mostly HMGs and a few logis would get boring very quickly.

If this becomes a thing I'm going to flush points Into caldari and gallente assaults annd demonstrate loudly why anyone who thinks HMGs arr the "best killers" is a godamn idiot with no imagination.

I've been using the sentinel suits since chromosome and they have GLARING and OBVIOUS weaknesses that assaults can exploit and capitalize on.

But because EHP>all to this community anything more complicated than "run at him and hold the trigger down!" Is a little higher difficulty than most of you are capable.

The number of times I've had some dumbass try to gunslinger me down at 10 meters is mind boggling. Then they come here and ***** that the HMG is OP. This has been the pattern since closed beta.

Every cqc objective in this game has areas where you can get an elevation advantage that is outside Hmg Optimal and well within any rifle's.

You can pin a fatty inside his objective and make him helpless to blueberries, and if you happen to be ace with a laser rifle you can make anyone's life hell, not just shield suits..

Also scouts aren't the only mad bombers. I'm very familiar with every single spot you can drop RE on fattiea. I have been killed that way all the time in my maxed sent suits.

You don't even need to master the frisbee.

Patience has an amazing effect when combined with the assault suit.

Playing at 40m + pretty much neuters fatties and almost every hiding spot has a place where you can take free shots at them from outside HMG optimal.

Playing a sentinel constantly kind of makes me ridiculously familiar with how fatties die.

No RE are not the most common method. Its almost always getting ganged up or someone who refuses to close and instead finds a better angle.

I really hope CCP is smarter than the OP because if scouts are rendered useless again, the vast majority of players will go hmg heavy.

If you recall long ago during the dark days of logi slayers they made up a majority of the battlefield because they were the best killers. If scouts get kicked in the nuts hmg heavies will be everywhere because they are the best killers. And with scouts roles reduced the only heavy spam counter will be more heavy spam.

I'm not saying it's perfect now but at last there is variety. Two teams of mostly HMGs and a few logis would get boring very quickly.

Dampening is a scout thing. You obviously haven't been around very long, but the old bonus used to be 5% dampening as the ROLE bonus.

Scouts should not have to sacrifice much at a maximum level to dodge scans. Thats something that assaults and heavies should have to do because they have more HP and more offensive oriented bonuses.

Your blatant stupidity and lack of knowledge on how to balance anything as well as your bias towards politically nerfing scouts to even more useless than they were before they got buffed is not only frustrating, but is, quite simply, painful to read.

You are a prime example of why it helps to have some historical or any kind of knowledge whatsoever about this game before you post.

So it is post like these that show me people prefer to hang on to their OP crap than to talk about balance.

I love how you guys don't come up with any argument at all, and of course there is absolutely no admitting that scouts... as they are right now, are completely broken.

For instance, check out the underlined bit... it is so one dimensional it isn't funny. This basically boils down to "wanting to have your cake and eat it too."

Anyway, most of the rebuttals I am reading sound exactly like the responses I got from tankers about broken swarms, or CR users after they came out, or Logistics before the nerf. "Don't nerf my OP stuff" is what it boils down to. I can pretty much guarantee that the same people defending scouts right now defend the rail rifle, defended vehicles in 1.7, and defended logistics pre-nerf.

CCP has the metrics and I am positive they reflect that scouts are far and away the most popular suit among players 10+ mil sp (those who know the game works.)

To sum up, the OP details a method of fixing ewar, where scouts can still be the very best at any one category of ewar, but not all of them at the same time while still being versatile, you know kind of like logistics used to be (best at many things at the same time).

So it is post like these that show me people prefer to hang on to their OP crap than to talk about balance.

I love how you guys don't come up with any argument at all, and of course there is absolutely no admitting that scouts... as they are right now, are completely broken.

For instance, check out the underlined bit... it is so one dimensional it isn't funny. This basically boils down to "wanting to have your cake and eat it too."

Anyway, most of the rebuttals I am reading sound exactly like the responses I got from tankers about broken swarms, or CR users after they came out, or Logistics before the nerf. "Don't nerf my OP stuff" is what it boils down to. I can pretty much guarantee that the same people defending scouts right now defend the rail rifle, defended vehicles in 1.7, and defended logistics pre-nerf.

CCP has the metrics and I am positive they reflect that scouts are far and away the most popular suit among players 10+ mil sp (those who know the game works.)

To sum up, the OP details a method of fixing ewar, where scouts can still be the very best at any one category of ewar, but not all of them at the same time while still being versatile, you know kind of like logistics used to be (best at many things at the same time).

Wow, I am totally done discussing scout balance with the guy who wrote this.

I agree with some of the thing you are saying but if you are making scouts unusable, in PC there will be nothing but HMGs and slayer logis on the field AGAIN!
this is a cycle. then they will moan about an hmg nerf, the assault will get more buffed, heavies nerfed, logis absolutely altered and scouts irrelevant. PC will get so boring and pub matches even more unfair to new players. If I was a new player I would rather fight a low ehp scout than a full on heavy hands down.
Scouts need a piece of dat nerf but nothing to drastic. I like your ideas of assaults being able to scan scouts using precision but removing shared passive scan is the worst idea of them all. It would paralize scouts roles as "intell-gatherer" and absolutely makes no sense what so ever why their main role should be taken away from them.

Having thought about this more I am strongly of the opinion that EWAR is as balanced as it is going to be and any changes are far more likely to break things than improve anything.

@OP

On the surface I think this is a good suggestion, so long as the AmarrScout bonus overlap is resolved, Shared Squad Vision STAYS, and the Cloak KEEPS its dampening values. All in all I think EWAR is one of the best elements to this game, especially considering the science far-future fiction setting, and increasing the availibility access for players is a good thing.

I do understand that the scouts have a roles they fulfill, but they are way way too many at the present, and they fufill some of those roles to the exclusion of the other suits.

On the shared PASSIVE vision, the problem is it makes scanners obsolete. Why would you want a limited cone of vision that shows for a smal period of time that is weak on all but one suit, when you can have something that is stronger, always on, envelops 360 degrees, and you can do it while cloaked.

Active Scans > Passive Scans because 1) Waaay more range and 2) Detection sensitivity is NOT based on the base profile of he user. The benefits to passives don't become worth a **** until the mods are stacked and even then really between the two they balance out fine.


How is it balanced that the only participants in EWAR are scouts?

I do understand that the scouts have a roles they fulfill, but they are way way too many at the present, and they fufill some of those roles to the exclusion of the other suits.

On the shared PASSIVE vision, the problem is it makes scanners obsolete. Why would you want a limited cone of vision that shows for a smal period of time that is weak on all but one suit, when you can have something that is stronger, always on, envelops 360 degrees, and you can do it while cloaked.


How is it balanced that the only participants in EWAR are scouts?

I do understand that the scouts have a roles they fulfill, but they are way way too many at the present, and they fufill some of those roles to the exclusion of the other suits.

On the shared PASSIVE vision, the problem is it makes scanners obsolete. Why would you want a limited cone of vision that shows for a small period of time that is weak on all but one suit, when you can have something that is stronger, always on, envelops 360 degrees, and you can do it while cloaked.

How is it balanced that the only participants in EWAR are scouts?

Fun Time ... with Facts!

Assault + 1 Cmp Dampener (34 dB): Dodges max-skilled passive scans of CA and MN Scout.
Assault + 2 Cmp Dampener (26 dB): Dodges max-skilled passives scans of all Scouts (even Amarr).
Logi + 1 Cmp Precision Amp (32 dB): Scans any undampened MN or CA Scout.
Logi + 2 Cmp Precision Amp (27 dB): Scans all undampened Scouts (even Gallente).


Bonus Question:
Does a Logi running 3 Precision Amps scan at the exact same intensity as MN or CA Scout running 2 Cmp Precision Amps?

You claimed that only Scouts can participate in EWAR.

I've demonstrated that your claim is false.

Why are you flaming?

Great, now you are going to be pedantic like a teenager losing an argument.


No you haven't. Like I said, you cherry picked some examples, and I just showed you how there is absolutely no interplay here.

Go scout or go home for EWAR. The fact that you are trying to dispute this common knowledge with misleading cherry picked examples just shows that you have no interest in balance, only supremacy. You think 1-2 lowslots is enough sacrifice for a suit to be beyond reproach. 1-2 lowslots dedicated is a middle of the ground jack of all trades fitting, and isn't worthy of being unchallengable.

Let me guess, you run a scout most of the time.... your bias is showing.

Considering he has readily worked with Rattati regarding scout balancing, and has offered reasonable solutions to situations like the Cal/Gal changes in Charlie, that essentially nerfed those two suits so Amarr and Minmatar could have a role, I think he is probably very level headed.

Especially considering someone whose bias is so strong that you are willing to negate an entire role simply because it causes you problems.

Remember, CCP has data that they can look to, and if they see that what you are complaining of isn't an issue, you really just come off as out of touch with what the real issue is.

Not one person has shown how this is anyway negates a scout role....

Scouts can still be fully undetecable
Scouts can still have amazing passive scanning ability (in both range and precision)
Scouts can still be the fastest
Scouts can still run the longest
Scouts still have the smallest hitboxes
Scouts still retain their extra equipment slot
Scouts still retain equal damage to logi/assaults
Scouts can still brick tank
Scouts still have the highest default ewar stats
scouts still have their insane shield regen

Tell me, how exactly is this a HUGE nerf? It isn't, it just isn't a tiny adjustment that will do nothing in the current metagame, and that pisses of the newfound scout community.

The only changes this proposes is not being able to do so many things at the same time.

This proposal makes it so that to beat every other suit on the field in a catagory, a scout must sacrifice alot, rather than barely anything.

You think I'm losing this argument?

Hit me up when you have something of substance to discuss.

But know that if you need a page of text to pitch your point, you likely don't have a point worth pitching.
Dig deep. And try to get your math straight next time.

I'm more than willing to help if you need your facts checked.

There is ONE scout that doesn't have to sacrifice as much, and that is the Gal scout.

This has a lot to do with their number of Low Slots, the greater utility of Lows, and the superiority of armor to shield modules.

All the rest have to make a significant sacrifice in order to be invisible, and can only do so with a proto cloak active.

It is already set up that way. A number of scouts spent days, if not longer, running through the numbers and making sure this happened.

Adipem is a big reason that you don't see Gal scouts tanking 1000 HP and still being tacnet invisible and getting two shots off with a shotgun, and he RUNS the darn build. Yet, he made sure it was nerfed because it was a problem.

At most, what needs to be done is to focus EWAR bonuses to mods, and/or double the speed penalty on plates just for scouts. A complete re work of EWAR is not necessary.

Two lowslots is not a "large sacrifice". Or lets say two slots is a sacrifice, can I "sacrifice" 4 slots, a much large number, on a logistics or assault suit to passively pick up the scout who only sacrificed two lowslots? What about 5 slots... surely that is enough to counter only a two slot investment... I mean that is the entire tank.

Or are you saying sacrificing the entire tank of a suit in order to pick up scouts is less of a sacrifice than a scout sacrificing 1-2 lowslots?

Also please remember, the extra equipment slot was put on the scouts so that they WOULDN'T have to sacrifice to run a cloak, so a cloak is no sacrifice at all.

Come up with a compelling argument as to why the scouts shouldn't have to compete in EWAR ...

In order for a Minja to get below a Gal Logi with a focused scanner (that is 1 slot FYI), I need to run 3 Complex Damps (which is all of my LS on an Adv or Proto suit) AND have my proto cloak active.

That is a hell of a sacrifice! Not only do I need to use 4 slots and lots of a meager fitting capacity, in order to do so, I need to have Dampening to level 5, Electronics to level 5, Engineering to level 5, Minmatar scout to level 4 or 5, and lastly cloaks to level 5. That is HUGE SP expense!

All the Gal Logi has to do is have level 5 Active Scanning and ONE slot!

In the same way that scouts weren't meant to tank as much as an Assaults, Assaults should not be able to EWAR as successfully as a scout.

As it stands, Assaults CAN beat scans of scouts with no precision mods if they so choose. They are not meant to beat ALL scans.