DUST Search - [Discussion] The sidearm-only logi argument.

All Channels

General Discussions

[Discussion] The sidearm-only logi argument.

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2325	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:03:00 - [1] - Quote Let me preface this thread by saying I want to discuss this idea, how it would affect the logi class, how it would be implemented, etc. If you disagree with the argument, I would urge you to explain why, because if you simply write, "lol this is a bad idea," then I will simply read it as, "pwease don't take away my crutch!" Also, I'd like to throw out some stipulations before I make my own argument. First, Amarr logi's, in this situation, would receive a second sidearm slot. Second, I would not expect CCP to implement this idea until there have been AT LEAST three more sidearms released for us to use, so that not every logi is running a Winmatar SMG. Alright, so let me start with the implications. What would happen if every logi had to run a sidearm at this exact moment from now on? Well, I imagine that most logissaults would come to the forums to cry, and to be fair to them, it is a very drastic change, so a respec might be justified in this situation. (when I say respec, I mean specifically SP taken out of logi dropsuit command skills, and nothing else.) All pure logistics players, on the other hand, would also likely come to the forums to complain that their light weapon skills are now useless to them, so a respec specifically in the light weapons tree would also be justified. The logistics class as a whole would become more vulnerable, but not actually useless, there are people that run dual sidearms despite having a light weapon slot because they WANT to, I imagine logi's will still be able to defend themselves in CQC. Outside of CQC, of course, they would be shooting practice, so logi's that currently run lone-wolf mode(myself included) would be encouraged to stick close to team-mates to keep them safe over long distance combat. Overall, it means that logi's can still combat, but not as effectively as assault players. As for how it would be implemented, I would expect a few buffs to help the logi out with this extreme change. First, the maximum amount of equipment carried should be increased to five, so that Amarr/Caldari would get four slots at the proto tier, and Minmatar/Gallente would get five at proto. Obviously, this is strengthening the logistics role. Second, logi speed should be buffed to be exactly at level with assault, currently logi speed is about 5% below assault. This would allow logi's to keep pace with their assault brethren, so that they don't get left in the dust trying to keep up with a group. Lastly, stamina and stamina regeneration would be buffed to an area somewhere between assaults and scouts. Logistics suits will need to be mobile to cope with the new change, and this will help tremendously. Overall, it makes the logistics class more logisctic-y. So let's talk about the other classes and how they might be affected by this difference. Assault suits would become more popular, because a large majority of assault players are currently residing in god-mode logistics suits. Heavy suits would come out of hiding if they thought there was a high chance that they would find a logi bro in most games, and scouts would be pretty much the same. I think removal of the assault suit's equipment slots would be appropriate, to make logistics player more needed on the battlefield, and it would be wise to increase the scout's equipment max to two so that nanohives don't become too rare. Overall, I'd say the other classes would be happy not getting outperformed in every way by the logi. My TL;DR: Yes, I am advocating that the logistics class should get only a sidearm. If you didn't read the thread and just scrolled down here to get a quick version, then suck it up and read the rest of my post. Constructive criticism is welcomed if you actually have a reasonable argument, like I said before, don't give me a "lolno," because it makes you look like a crutch-using tool. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2325	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:03:00 - [2] - Quote [Reserved] Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Mr Machine Guns Nyain San 143	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:06:00 - [3] - Quote this is what i would do when the new weapons come out, give each assault drop suit a bonus for using their ffactions weapon tech kinda like what the amarr assault already has
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1757	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:07:00 - [4] - Quote Why not a damage De-buff OR this Make a deal... give us Base 40-50% equipment PG/CPU reduction and 5% per level after that and I'll take the PG and CPU of an assault Then Gals get .5HP/s Regen Amarr get some bonus to base armor HP +5% per level Cals get something to increase base shield HP Minnies get something to help base speed And we change the assault general bonus of 5% per level fitting light weapons AND sidearms and possibly a inherent +5% increase to damage with the loss of an equipment slot Gals get .5HP/s Regen Amarr get some bonus to base armor HP +5% per level Cals get something to increase base shield HP Minnies get something to help base speed BUT THEY just repeated the same bonuses again, yep it's what they need treat the medium suits the same so nobody bitches about unfairesss or in equality Level 1 Forum Warrior I'm a bittervet, if I seem like a douche it's because of your stupidity
Musta Tornius Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 657	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:10:00 - [5] - Quote Posting for Godin as he doesn't know why he's banned: "Godin says that he Agrees, and also says if that's not an option, then instead of taking sidearms away, you can reduce the damage output of the ligt weapon." Dust514 Weapon Range & Information
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1084	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:11:00 - [6] - Quote The logistics class if fine where it is. Sure it can preform the tasks of all roles, but it can't do so at the same time . And why does everyone assume that logistics should only be in the back repping and resupplying everyone. Run with literally nothing but ONE sidearms for 2 weeks and see how well you perform. This argument is idiotic and not worth explaining in vast amounts of detail Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2325	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:12:00 - [7] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: Why not a damage De-buff OR this Make a deal... give us Base 40-50% equipment PG/CPU reduction and 5% per level after that and I'll take the PG and CPU of an assault Then Gals get .5HP/s Regen Amarr get some bonus to base armor HP +5% per level Cals get something to increase base shield HP Minnies get something to help base speed And we change the assault general bonus of 5% per level fitting light weapons AND sidearms and possibly a inherent +5% increase to damage with the loss of an equipment slot Gals get .5HP/s Regen Amarr get some bonus to base armor HP +5% per level Cals get something to increase base shield HP Minnies get something to help base speed BUT THEY just repeated the same bonuses again, yep it's what they need treat the medium suits the same so nobody bitches about unfairesss or in equality Problem is, with the CPU/PG of an assault plus using equipment, you would never be able to fill out all of those module slots, which kind of makes one of the huge pros of being logistics null. I like the inherent +5% to damage on assault suits, though. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1757	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:13:00 - [8] - Quote Musta Tornius wrote: Posting for Godin as he doesn't know why he's banned: "Godin says that he Agrees, and also says if that's not an option, then instead of taking sidearms away, you can reduce the damage output of the ligt weapon." See the Idea of a De-buff is to allow the Logi to use anything they want but they just are less effective than an assault. Level 1 Forum Warrior I'm a bittervet, if I seem like a douche it's because of your stupidity
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 1391	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:13:00 - [9] - Quote Npt this again. You're asking for a change that isn't nrrdrd at all. Do you have a proto ogi and a proto assault suit of the same race? If not, you're not really entitled to presenting this as an "enlightened suggestion". Everyone I've talked to that has both the Amar suits or bith the Caldari suits like I have, say that they're fine except for a few racial bonuses. Caldari logistics has by far the worst and should be changed. IMO giving the Logi an equipment fitting bonus and the assault class a general weaponry bonus would be enough. This only one sidearm slot sounds like a good idea for officer suits. http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/KingBabar/media/BannerKingbabarcopy.png.html
Cosgar ParagonX 7841	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:16:00 - [10] - Quote Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2325	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:16:00 - [11] - Quote Atiim wrote: Pwease don't take away my crutch I never at any point said logi's need to be at the back repping. I have used sidearms and they are far more powerful that people give them credit for, logi's would in no way be useless in combat. Ask Cat Merc what he thinks of 'not being able to do everything at once,' because I'm pretty sure he did the math and found Gal logi can brick tank plus damage stack, that's doing two things at once that the assault could only do one at a time. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Jackof All-Trades The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 272	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:18:00 - [12] - Quote I'll miss my plasma cannon on my logi suit "Pulvis et umbra sums." We are but dust and shadow GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace \ Omni-Specialist / Focus: Gallente
Funkmaster Whale Whale Farm 1135	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:19:00 - [13] - Quote The problem with Logis isn't their weapon. It's their ability to single-handedly outperform the Assault suit in almost every aspect. The 5 HP/s regen coupled with having 2x the fitting potential AND carry 3-4 equipment is what makes them function as Super Assaults. We need to take baby steps to fix this. First, get rid of the 5 HP/s like they've said they would months ago and give them a proper Logi bonus. Get rid of the blanket 10% damage buff from Uprising 1.0 and give the Assault suit a 2% per level damage bonus. That way the bonus is actually useful to ALL Assault suits and not just shield-tankers. Let me play you the song of my people!
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2329	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:20:00 - [14] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
skippy678 F.T.U. 120	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:22:00 - [15] - Quote just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. U.play.good? F.T.U. Recruiting Thread
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4514	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:23:00 - [16] - Quote Atiim wrote: The logistics class if fine where it is. Sure it can preform the tasks of all roles, but it can't do so at the same time . And why does everyone assume that logistics should only be in the back repping and resupplying everyone. Run with literally nothing but ONE sidearms for 2 weeks and see how well you perform. This argument is idiotic and not worth explaining in vast amounts of detail So... Logistics is a do everything suit. But the other suits can't morph into other suits, and Logistics are the only suits with more than 2 equipment. Do you not see the problem? *Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant* *Beta Vet* *Level 4 Forum Warrior*
Mr Machine Guns Nyain San 144	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:23:00 - [17] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: The problem with Logis isn't their weapon. It's their ability to single-handedly outperform the Assault suit in almost every aspect. The 5 HP/s regen coupled with having 2x the fitting potential AND carry 3-4 equipment is what makes them function as Super Assaults. We need to take baby steps to fix this. First, get rid of the 5 HP/s like they've said they would months ago and give them a proper Logi bonus. Get rid of the blanket 10% damage buff from Uprising 1.0 and give the Assault suit a 2% per level damage bonus. That way the bonus is actually useful to ALL Assault suits and not just shield-tankers. gallente logi bonus is also ridiculous to have all their equipment get a reduction in cpu/pg, one would be fine but for every equipment they put on it. Since they already have a ton of cpu and pg there is no point to give them this insane bonus
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2329	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:24:00 - [18] - Quote skippy678 wrote: just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. ....do you have the ability to read? Try again, and look at my name, and then tell me that I am talking about a different class. (Psst here's a hint, I AM a logi) Been Logistics since before it was cool.
skippy678 F.T.U. 120	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:25:00 - [19] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. then why dont you use it? instead of whatever you use... the real way to know what is balanced is trying to think of what you would espec into....I am having a hardish time deciding..i have it down to a handfull but no 1 or 2 suits stand out as being an immeddiate first choice..a few stnd out as hell no and they are the suits CCP should work on. U.play.good? F.T.U. Recruiting Thread
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4514	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:25:00 - [20] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? Cosgar, that is your stupidest argument you ever made. *Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant* *Beta Vet* *Level 4 Forum Warrior*

Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 939	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:26:00 - [21] - Quote I kind of imagine the two options as looking like this. Option 1: All logistics suits trade their light weapon slots for side arm slots with the exception of the Amarr logi which keeps the light weapon thus retaining its "assault like" capabilities. The Amarr logi would have the additional requirement of having to fill its equipment slots to help retain balance with the other logi suits (more versatile but less able and all that). To make this option more palatable logistics suits would have to provide a large bonus to equipment usage. Option 2: All logistics suits provide a -20% bonus to weapon damage (not just light weapon damage). This penalty is reduced by skilling into logistics suits by 3% per level, leaving proto-logis with a 5% reduction in damage output. This penalty reduction would need to be paired with a small per level bonus that increases ability with equipment in some way. Option 3: Require logistics suits to fill all their equipment slots. No other changes needed for this balancing option. Using the above options as a basis for comparison of the ideas it would seem that option 2 provides more flexibility to logistics players which they will enjoy but still makes them less efficient than assaults at killing. Option one on the other hand reduces character flexibility but would force more of a support style of play since being aggressive would not be a very successful strategy for most players (except for those who are amazing at getting head shots with the scrambler pistol). This rebalancing method would probably frustrate a lot of logistics players who have put skills into light weapons and would probably necessitate a partial skill refunding for logistics only players. The third option seems to be the one that is most palatable for logistics players as it results in very few changes to how their skills work but does restrict their fitting options in a way that would reduce their combat efficiency. It would also probably be the simplest change for CCP to code. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Tectonic Fusion 577	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:26:00 - [22] - Quote Then give me a respec for 90% of the SP I invested in. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
skippy678 F.T.U. 120	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:27:00 - [23] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: skippy678 wrote: just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. ....do you have the ability to read? Try again, and look at my name, and then tell me that I am talking about a different class. (Psst here's a hint, I AM a logi) Your name dosent make you a Logi.....the fact that you are trying to nerf your own suit means your an idiot or lying. end of my conversation here troll U.play.good? F.T.U. Recruiting Thread
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 17	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:29:00 - [24] - Quote Just fix my assault suit you can leave the logi guys alone i don't like nerfs cause it screws people over. Why the crap do i have a shield bonus on my gallente suit. Were is my Cpu and Pg its like wearing a tight pair of pants with no room for my car keys. The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu
Cosgar ParagonX 7847	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:29:00 - [25] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves. But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1088	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:29:00 - [26] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Atiim wrote: Pwease don't take away my crutch I never at any point said logi's need to be at the back repping. I have used sidearms and they are far more powerful that people give them credit for, logi's would in no way be useless in combat. Ask Cat Merc what he thinks of 'not being able to do everything at once,' because I'm pretty sure he did the math and found Gal logi can brick tank plus damage stack, that's doing two things at once that the assault could only do one at a time. Resulting to immature post editing I see? Again. Post a youtube video of you and an entire squad using nothing but sidearms. And remember that not everyone can afford to run PRO gear (even sidearms) 24/7. So make your squad use ONE STD or ADV sidearm. (Logistics only have 1 weapon slot, so you should only use one sidearm). If sidearms are so viable, then why don't we make Assaults use sidearms only? Because it's idiotic and unnecessary? Well so is the idea of forcing the Logistics class to use sidearms. Again, I'd love to see someone try to brick tank my Minmatar Logistics and have complex damage mods while still having enough CPU/PG for PRO equipment. Go on I'm waiting. A brick tanked, high DPS suit is an Assault. What was Cat Merc's equipment? If It wasn't ADV or PRO then I refuse to count that as being a medic. Therefore, Cat Merc had a good assault fit but a terrible medic fit. Also, what Logistics do you use? Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2330	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:29:00 - [27] - Quote skippy678 wrote: Logi Bro wrote: skippy678 wrote: just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. ....do you have the ability to read? Try again, and look at my name, and then tell me that I am talking about a different class. (Psst here's a hint, I AM a logi) Your name dosent make you a Logi.....the fact that you are trying to nerf your own suit means your an idiot or lying. end of my conversation here troll As you are obviously the troll, I can be certain that you will, in fact, come back to make more useless posting. I am trying to nerf my own class because I know for a fact that it will be nerfed anyways, I am simply trying to recommend the nerf that I think would hurt the class the least. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Funkmaster Whale Whale Farm 1135	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:30:00 - [28] - Quote Mr Machine Guns wrote: gallente logi bonus is also ridiculous to have all their equipment get a reduction in cpu/pg, one would be fine but for every equipment they put on it. Since they already have a ton of cpu and pg there is no point to give them this insane bonus IMO, this would make more sense to me: Get rid of the 5 HP/s. Replace the Logi bonus with a 5% per level to fitting equipment. Next, lower the base CPU/PG of Logi suits across the board to compensate. This would accomplish two things: (1) it would allow the Logi suit to focus on what it's intended for: providing support through equipment; (2) it would lower the potential for Logi suits to brick-tank their suits with all Complex mods. Of course the Logis would be in an uproar about it because they couldn't super-fit their suits anymore with any and every module. Let me play you the song of my people!
Ander Thedas Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 22	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:30:00 - [29] - Quote My main issue with this would be a lack of support versatility. A lot of times that I'm playing a logi I'll hit a situation where no one on the team is running dedicated AV against a 3 LAVs and a HAV, and it falls on me to swap to a logi suit with swarms to at least hold them back if not take them out. Losing the ability to do so would really inhibit what I do on the battlefield in a support capacity or force me to skill into a whole new assault suit just to run a secondary use support weapon that no one else wants to be bothered with running (hence it falling on my lap as a support player). Besides that I don't hate the idea. I just wish there was a more sensible way of balancing everything out.
DeadlyAztec11 Gallente Federation 2615	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:31:00 - [30] - Quote I like this idea, but as you said, I do not want to see this implemented until we get more sidearms. Not only that, I believe that there should be a Carbine type class, it is very similar to main light weapons, but not nearly as effective, they can fit in a sidearm slot but they take up a lot of CPU and PG if put in that slot, except on Logi suits, they would not be penalized with extra fitting requirements. A short AR and Scrambler Rifle come to mind. By the way, this is what real medics and engineers do, they get a Carbine instead of a larger variant. Madness is the emergency exit. You can just step outside, and close the door on all those dreadful things that happened.

Cosgar ParagonX 7847	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:32:00 - [31] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? Cosgar, that is your stupidest argument you ever made. Taking away a class's means to defend itself in a FPS isn't a stupid idea? If this was such a great idea, wouldn't a dev had responded to one of the 5938745073405 nerf logi topics before this? Hell, they could've done this when they nerfed the CaLogi. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 942	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:32:00 - [32] - Quote A good player will always recognize when there is an issue with their class of choice and try to recommend a fix. I for one applaud Logi Bro for trying to make this game better even though in doing so he will make it harder for himself. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 489	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:34:00 - [33] - Quote First reading through this thread I was skeptical, but as I read I liked pretty much everything you said! +1 Also the scout extra equipment slot is much needed, as well as more PG and CPU for scouts. *-Minmatar Scout-* *-Minmatar Logistics-* *-Mass Driver and Sniper Rifle Expert-*
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1088	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:35:00 - [34] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: A good player will always recognize when there is an issue with their class of choice and try to recommend a fix. I for one applaud Logi Bro for trying to make this game better even though in doing so he will make it harder for himself. I believe that Assault suits simply need more slots. But sidearms only? He is an idiot. Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 957	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:37:00 - [35] - Quote Only with a proper bonus on side arms, you are a logi not cannon fodder. Side arms are very effective but to force a logi to use only sidearms there should be more sidearms, the only 2 sidearms that can replace a light weapon are the scrambler pistol and the SMG. Why not a new proper weapon class? Logi weapons. "Just another piece of duct tape" Some love for gunners
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:39:00 - [36] - Quote Atiim wrote: Resulting to immature post editing I see? Again. Post a youtube video of you and an entire squad using nothing but sidearms. And remember that not everyone can afford to run PRO gear (even sidearms) 24/7. So make your squad use ONE STD or ADV sidearm. (Logistics only have 1 weapon slot, so you should only use one sidearm). If sidearms are so viable, then why don't we make Assaults use sidearms only? Because it's idiotic and unnecessary? Well so is the idea of forcing the Logistics class to use sidearms. Again, I'd love to see someone try to brick tank my Minmatar Logistics and have complex damage mods while still having enough CPU/PG for PRO equipment. Go on I'm waiting. A brick tanked, high DPS suit is an Assault. What was Cat Merc's equipment? If It wasn't ADV or PRO then I refuse to count that as being a medic. Therefore, Cat Merc had a good assault fit but a terrible medic fit. Also, what Logistics do you use? What tier? If you had read my any of my thread, you will have noticed that I said something along the lines of, "if you don't post a reasonable argument, then I will simply read your post as pwease don't take my crutch." Yes, I am very immature for making up a long thought-out argument and then get annoyed when you trolls show up to post literally nothing useful. But alright, I'll humor you. Why would I run a full squad of sidearms? I am proposing this nerf to a single suit, and ideally you would only have one or two logistics suits per squad, so you're point makes no real sense. Why don't assaults use sidearms only? Oh, gee, IDK, maybe it's because assault suits are specifically designed for combat, so they bring heavier weaponry to the field, and logistics suits are designed specifically support, so they carry a weapon as a second thought. Can't fit damage mods on a Minmatar suit with full PRO equipment? No ****. Logissaults don't use any equipment AT ALL. Your point is again null, and you miss the point entirely. I use Minmatar Logistics, I run full ADV equipment, ADV weaponry, and I annihilate the opposition like a hot knife through butter. The logistics suit is too self-sufficient. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1238	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:40:00 - [37] - Quote Why do you think logis being allowed a light weapon is a "crutch"? Marston VC, STB director
Adelia Lafayette DUST University Ivy League 434	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:42:00 - [38] - Quote why don't people just kill us when we are reloading? its not like we have a side arm or anything cept for the amarr.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 135	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:43:00 - [39] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: 1) Also, I'd like to throw out some stipulations before I make my own argument. First, Amarr logi's, in this situation, would receive a second sidearm slot. 2) Alright, so let me start with the implications. What would happen if every logi had to run a sidearm at this exact moment from now on? Well, I imagine that most logissaults would come to the forums to cry, and to be fair to them, it is a very drastic change, so a respec might be justified in this situation. (when I say respec, I mean specifically SP taken out of logi dropsuit command skills, and nothing else.) 1) Well, that's not really the same, is it? A sidearm is a sidearm and they are quite clearly not designed to be primary weapons: they are distinctly lacking in range which makes them substandard for anything but emergency or close in firefights, and even then you're still at a disadvantage overall. Having two of them is not a fair trade for Amarrian Logis. 2) Yes, because - as you talk about below - people run things how they want to run things. Running dual sidearms because you choose to is an entirely different thing to running a single sidearm only because you are forced to. Speaking as a Logibro, I could care less about K/DR tryhards, but this suggestions is a terrible idea for many reasons. Logi Bro wrote: All pure logistics players, on the other hand, would also likely come to the forums to complain that their light weapon skills are now useless to them, so a respec specifically in the light weapons tree would also be justified. The logistics class as a whole would become more vulnerable, but not actually useless, there are people that run dual sidearms despite having a light weapon slot because they WANT to, I imagine logi's will still be able to defend themselves in CQC. Outside of CQC, of course, they would be shooting practice, so logi's that currently run lone-wolf mode(myself included) would be encouraged to stick close to team-mates to keep them safe over long distance combat. So, you're suggesting that Logistics suits become easy prey at ranges exceeding 20 metres because some people abuse the slot layout for a minor gain? Why are we not buffing up Assault/Heavy/Scout suits again? The issue with Logistics suits is that they 'outshine' all the other classes and it's primarily due to slot layout and **** role bonuses: why don't we increase the Assaults to having the same number (with relevantly increased CPU/PG) and give them an actually useful (non-Racial) Role Bonus (since the Racial Role Bonuses are generally decent, but even they could do with a tweak.)? Logi Bro wrote: Overall, it means that logi's can still combat, but not as effectively as assault players. As for how it would be implemented, I would expect a few buffs to help the logi out with this extreme change. First, the maximum amount of equipment carried should be increased to five, so that Amarr/Caldari would get four slots at the proto tier, and Minmatar/Gallente would get five at proto. Obviously, this is strengthening the logistics role. Overall, it makes the logistics class more logisctic-y.[/quote] What it would mean is a Logi is relegated to being a pack mule and a battlefield **. The Logistics suit is not meant to be a live target for people to practice their skills on just because they've chosen to actually help the team!* Increasing the amount of slots would not make Logistics suits more appealing as a role when you reduce their offensive capabilities to next to naught: they would be brought out to lay down a plethora of equipment then immediately switched away from once their load was dropped. Logi Bro wrote: Assault suits would become more popular, because a large majority of assault players are currently residing in god-mode logistics suits. Heavy suits would come out of hiding if they thought there was a high chance that they would find a logi bro in most games, and scouts would be pretty much the same. I think removal of the assault suit's equipment slots would be appropriate, to make logistics player more needed on the battlefield, and it would be wise to increase the scout's equipment max to two so that nanohives don't become too rare. Logistics are not god-mode. They have an advantage over Assaults in the EHP department. It is small, but present. The fix is to rebalance - aka, buff - the Assault suits. Heavies would lament the dearth of true Logibros, since their little brothers would be essentially worthless in a firefight over 20 metres. Assaults would ***** that there aren't enough nanohives/links because Logistics are so niche. Scouts would love the second equipment slot and you'd likely see Scouts being brought out as precursors to assaults, laying down uplinks and then people would switch to Logistics when areas need thorough seeding with nanohives. Logistics would be so rare during actual combat because they would be nearly useless. Logi Bro wrote: Overall, I'd say the other classes would be happy not getting outperformed in every way by the logi. Yes. Which is why buffing them is the answer: Assaults: Increase number of slots (with relevant increase in CPU/PG) Increase base stats somewhat to further open the gap and remove the minimal EHP difference that way Alter the Role Bonus such that it is significant to the role (this is difficult because of the various styles Assaults fill; likely a damage mod following a widespread damage reduction, eg, 1% damage per level for light weapons, maybe light and sidearm weapons: ammo bonus could work, perhaps increased clip size and/or spare ammunition) A shake up of the entire bonus system to operate much more like EVE (ie, bonuses are tied to the dropsuit and based on different skills, rather than being tied directly to the skills themselves.)
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 835	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:44:00 - [40] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: . . Overall, it means that logi's can still combat, but not as effectively as assault players. . . Overall, it makes the logistics class more logisctic-y. . . AFAIK logistic suits are still supposed to be capable combat suits with only a slight balance shift from assaults. (Naturally that does not mean they should be better than assaults - tuning still needed.) If developers choose to change their previous vision on things, in this case logi role, then it's fine and good and I've got no complaints. Before that happens I'm against sidearm-onlying logis. Sidearm does give defensive capability but that's it - you really can't support any attack with it and supporting from behing the very first wave is close to impossible (no lasers, TACs, MDs, plasmas...) Note that I would like to see a following new 'sidearmy' suit type which could fill the role you are suggesting and also could live with sidearm due to mobility: Light Frame Flanking Engineer - that could complement current logi by creating a great hull for scanners and uplinks but with a price (scout frame, two EQ slots, only sidearm or two, fast movement) Feeling the scanner is too simple and off balance? The fix:

Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:46:00 - [41] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves. But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence? Your god mode is, as I keep saying, too self sufficient. Logi can't defend himself? That's a bad argument and you know it, if sidearms are so useless, why do they exist in the game in the first place? They are deadly, just less so than light weaponry. If you are running full proto equipment, I imagine that you are with a squad. Why is it that you are by yourself trying to fight the enemy in the scenario that you are depicting? More mod slots, more equipment, more CPU/PG, all at the expense of one sidearm. If sidearms are as useless as you depict them to be, then how is it balanced that logi's get all these extra bells and whistles at the loss of one measly little sidearm? Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:48:00 - [42] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Only with a proper bonus on side arms, you are a logi not cannon fodder. Side arms are very effective but to force a logi to use only sidearms there should be more sidearms, the only 2 sidearms that can replace a light weapon are the scrambler pistol and the SMG. Why not a new proper weapon class? Logi weapons. Like I said, I would expect CCP to release at least three more sidearms before any change like this. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Snaps Tremor DUST University Ivy League 398	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:49:00 - [43] - Quote The primary combat 'nerf' of a Logi suit is that they have to use one firearm to cover all eventualities, instead of two. The way Dust plays right now, with several light weapons able to effectively Do Everything and dominate the field, this is irrelevant. So the problem is less that having a primary-type weapon slot is overpowered, and more that there are still a few weapons in the game that make running with one gun a very mild disadvantage. To my mind, the sidearm slot idea is just a hacky fix to a bigger balance problem. But a hacky fix is better than no fix at all.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 943	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:49:00 - [44] - Quote Atiim wrote: I believe that Assault suits simply need more slots. But sidearms only? He is an idiot. The issue with that approach is that once you give the assaults more high/low slots you're also going to have to boost the slot count on heavies and scouts as well as all of those classes cpu/pg to make the slots useful. That is a lot more in the way of changes then just altering the logistics suit. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:49:00 - [45] - Quote Marston VC wrote: Why do you think logis being allowed a light weapon is a "crutch"? Not specifically the light weapon, but the light weapon combined with everything else. It is just a better assault without the sidearm. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1094	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:50:00 - [46] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Atiim wrote: Resulting to immature post editing I see? Again. Post a youtube video of you and an entire squad using nothing but sidearms. And remember that not everyone can afford to run PRO gear (even sidearms) 24/7. So make your squad use ONE STD or ADV sidearm. (Logistics only have 1 weapon slot, so you should only use one sidearm). If sidearms are so viable, then why don't we make Assaults use sidearms only? Because it's idiotic and unnecessary? Well so is the idea of forcing the Logistics class to use sidearms. Again, I'd love to see someone try to brick tank my Minmatar Logistics and have complex damage mods while still having enough CPU/PG for PRO equipment. Go on I'm waiting. A brick tanked, high DPS suit is an Assault. What was Cat Merc's equipment? If It wasn't ADV or PRO then I refuse to count that as being a medic. Therefore, Cat Merc had a good assault fit but a terrible medic fit. Also, what Logistics do you use? What tier? If you had read my any of my thread, you will have noticed that I said something along the lines of, "if you don't post a reasonable argument, then I will simply read your post as pwease don't take my crutch." Yes, I am very immature for making up a long thought-out argument and then get annoyed when you trolls show up to post literally nothing useful. But alright, I'll humor you. Why would I run a full squad of sidearms? I am proposing this nerf to a single suit, and ideally you would only have one or two logistics suits per squad, so you're point makes no real sense. Why don't assaults use sidearms only? Oh, gee, IDK, maybe it's because assault suits are specifically designed for combat, so they bring heavier weaponry to the field, and logistics suits are designed specifically support, so they carry a weapon as a second thought. Can't fit damage mods on a Minmatar suit with full PRO equipment? No ****. Logissaults don't use any equipment AT ALL. Your point is again null, and you miss the point entirely. I use Minmatar Logistics, I run full ADV equipment, ADV weaponry, and I annihilate the opposition like a hot knife through butter. The logistics suit is too self-sufficient. I'm telling you to run a full squad with nothing but one sidearm because you seem to be under the illusion that having only 1 sidearm makes you combat effective. If you don't use your equipment at all, then you are an assault. You are not a medic so you are not fulfilling two roles at the same time. Your point about logistics being able to fulfill multiple roles at the same time in null and void. Not every logistics was designed specifically for support. Just look at the Amarr logistics. Just give Assaults more slots. The sidearm only idea is utterly ridiculous. Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 19	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:50:00 - [47] - Quote Atiim wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: A good player will always recognize when there is an issue with their class of choice and try to recommend a fix. I for one applaud Logi Bro for trying to make this game better even though in doing so he will make it harder for himself. I believe that Assault suits simply need more slots. But sidearms only? He is an idiot. Just fix the assault suit bonus some more slots and higher cpu pg than you can leave the logi alone everyone is happy. I hate that something i have put skill points in gets nerfed because something someone else uses is not as good more buffs less nerfs. The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu
Paran Tadec Imperfect Bastards 1660	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:51:00 - [48] - Quote Only after you remove equipment slots from all of the non-logi suits. This is stupid. Remove 10% buff from all hitscan weapons, and put a 2% dmg bonus per level on assualt suits. ITS A FREE COMPLEX DAMAGE MOD. Bittervet Proficiency V thanks logibro!
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1094	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:53:00 - [49] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Atiim wrote: I believe that Assault suits simply need more slots. But sidearms only? He is an idiot. The issue with that approach is that once you give the assaults more high/low slots you're also going to have to boost the slot count on heavies and scouts as well as all of those classes cpu/pg to make the slots useful. That is a lot more in the way of changes then just altering the logistics suit. But the change would be benifical to all classes, as opposed to making one class useless for anything other than healing and resupplying others. That is why we should just give the other suits more slots and CPU/PG. Scouts? They already needed more slots and CPU/PG to being with. Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 460	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:54:00 - [50] - Quote Atiim wrote: The logistics class if fine where it is. Sure it can preform the tasks of all roles, but it can't do so at the same time . Heh. Atiim wrote: And why does everyone assume that logistics should only be in the back repping and resupplying everyone. I don't think too many believe that. Me in my SMG certainly don't and we both got a second opinion from Mr.Scrambler Atiim wrote: Run with literally nothing but ONE sidearms for 2 weeks and see how well you perform. Pretty well actually. It's not like they shoot pebbles or something. Your not going to be running out of ammo either soooo... Seeing as how I only use a side arm anyhow, loosing the ability to use a light weapon wouldn't affect me at all. As I see it, that'd help with all the rage over logisaults too. Doubt many would use them for slaying if they couldn't have their precious Duvs or whatever the big thing now is. Damn Imperials! Dust 514 belongs to the ARs!

DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7685	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:55:00 - [51] - Quote I actually wish I had proto SMG instead of HMG, since it performs better than the HMG in most cases Story / Vids / OSG
Commander Marquess 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 56	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:55:00 - [52] - Quote I believe, if this idea were ever implemented, instead of giving the amarr Logi 2 sidearms that it should instead be given 1 light weapon slot and no sidearm. This way it would live up to its description of a combat oriented Logistics. Amarr logistic Description " the Amarr variant is a durable, Combat-Focused suit that provides Above-Average protection, allowing logistics units to operate in the middle of a firefight, actively dispersing aid and support as needed while simultaneously engaging the enemy and inflicting trauma of its own." >"You want to fuck with the Eagles, you have to learn to fly." `- Heather Chandler`
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 943	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:56:00 - [53] - Quote Atiim wrote: Scouts? They already needed more slots and CPU/PG to being with. I certainly can't disagree with you on that matter. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Tectonic Fusion 578	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:59:00 - [54] - Quote Atiim wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: A good player will always recognize when there is an issue with their class of choice and try to recommend a fix. I for one applaud Logi Bro for trying to make this game better even though in doing so he will make it harder for himself. I believe that Assault suits simply need more slots. But sidearms only? He is an idiot. Yeah... But an assault with OCD would go crazy if they have perfect fit with ONE slot empty if they got more slots. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:00:00 - [55] - Quote Atiim wrote: I'm telling you to run a full squad with nothing but one sidearm because you seem to be under the illusion that having only 1 sidearm makes you combat effective. If you don't use your equipment at all, then you are an assault. You are not a medic so you are not fulfilling two roles at the same time. Your point about logistics being able to fulfill multiple roles at the same time in null and void. Not every logistics was designed specifically for support. Just look at the Amarr logistics. Just give Assaults more slots. The sidearm only idea is utterly ridiculous. I started with a very very long response to this but gave up, you aren't seeing the same picture that I am. Let me just say that running the logi without the equipment is the entire reason this is a problem. Obviously they are not running logistics if you call them logissaults. Making it required to fit all the equipment slots would simply make it so people would fill all the slots with basic nanite injectors, it fills the parameters, and uses a measly amount of CPU/PG. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Cosgar ParagonX 7852	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:00:00 - [56] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves. But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence? Your god mode is, as I keep saying, too self sufficient. Logi can't defend himself? That's a bad argument and you know it, if sidearms are so useless, why do they exist in the game in the first place? They are deadly, just less so than light weaponry. If you are running full proto equipment, I imagine that you are with a squad. Why is it that you are by yourself trying to fight the enemy in the scenario that you are depicting? More mod slots, more equipment, more CPU/PG, all at the expense of one sidearm. If sidearms are as useless as you depict them to be, then how is it balanced that logi's get all these extra bells and whistles at the loss of one measly little sidearm? Never said sidearms are useless. Hell, most of them are good enough to be primaries. I even run a sidearm from time to time when I need the extra CPU/PG for that extra triage hive in a domination match, or a fit to lay out a field of proximity mines. But should I have to all the time just because I can? I use mass drivers to disorient reds for my squad/team a TAC AR to pick off any would be flankers, and a standard AR when the above two aren't viable. Limiting the logistics (or any class for that matter) takes away the principle of versatility this game was supposed to offer. Ask any heavy if they like being shoved into their new role of point defense for example. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 1663	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:01:00 - [57] - Quote I am an amarr logi. I dislike this idea. I dislike this idea because having both a sidearm and a light weapon is my suits defining feature. My suit gives up extra equipment slots to have a sidearm and a light weapon. Restricting my suit to side arms would be (IMO) the death of the amarr logi. "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle I'll take your Iskies
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:02:00 - [58] - Quote Commander Marquess wrote: I believe, if this idea were ever implemented, instead of giving the amarr Logi 2 sidearms that it should instead be given 1 light weapon slot and no sidearm. This way it would live up to its description of a combat oriented Logistics. Amarr logistic Description " the Amarr variant is a durable, Combat-Focused suit that provides Above-Average protection, allowing logistics units to operate in the middle of a firefight, actively dispersing aid and support as needed while simultaneously engaging the enemy and inflicting trauma of its own." I can relent to this, it seems like a fair enough argument. I'll make edits in the OP. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 959	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:05:00 - [59] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: shaman oga wrote: Only with a proper bonus on side arms, you are a logi not cannon fodder. Side arms are very effective but to force a logi to use only sidearms there should be more sidearms, the only 2 sidearms that can replace a light weapon are the scrambler pistol and the SMG. Why not a new proper weapon class? Logi weapons. Like I said, I would expect CCP to release at least three more sidearms before any change like this. Probably a new class of weapons made appositely for logi would solve the problem. Something between light weapons and sidearms. The problem is that logistic suit is a derivation of the medium frame suit, medium frame have the ability to carry light weapons, lose that ability in an higher tier class of suits is not logic. A new class of weapons specifically designed for logi would solve both the logic and gameplay problem. You can explain it by saying that the suit systems are not designed to carry light weapons but only logi weapons and sidearms. Of course assaults will be able to carry light, logi and sidearms weapons (logi weapons should use light weapon slot). "Just another piece of duct tape" Some love for gunners
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 170	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:09:00 - [60] - Quote This is not a good idea. What you suggest in the OP would be interesting as an additional specialization of the medium frame suits, but absolutely not as a substitute for the current logi suits. Here are the problems I'm seeing: You are forcing every player to make a decision between being useful in combat, or using equipment as a support character (you wrote it yourself, logis will be useless except for self defense in close combat). As cosgar pointed out, this is the opposite of the idea behind Dust and the fitting system. It limits the possibilities of how you can play this game, and with that it limits the fun you can have with the game and its long term motivation. Running side arms only is simply boring. There are two weapon classes available: pistols and SMGs. This is an FPS, people want to play with all sorts of different weapons, so don't take the weapons away from them. If you do, you also take away the fun (see above). The entire concept of the Amarr logi would be nullified and the suit would have to be redone completely. A second side arm does not help at all in combat if you can't engage the enemy with a proper weapon to begin with. Except if you allowed dual wielding, which would be a balancing nightmare for CCP and is very unlikely to happen. Also, I have some question: Why do you think that the ability to use a decent weapon is the reason for logi suits appearing OP? Imho, the problem is their ability to equip more modules than any assault suit. Did you ever consider another suggestion that has been around at least as long as the side arm only idea: a role bonuse for logi suits that grants massive reduction to CPU/PG costs of equipment, and a reduction of overall CPU/PG of all logi suits? Why go ahead and risk a brutal overnerf of a whole play style instead of fixing the obvious problems first? Everyone can see that the boni for assault and logi suits are not appropriate and that the 5 HP/s armor repair for logis is a combat advantage they clearly shouldn't have. This has to be fixed first, then the balance between logi and assault needs to be reevaluated. This is especially true for the Gallente logi and assault. Is there actually a convincing argument anywhere on this forum that all logi suits are in fact OP with respect to their racial assault variants? Since CCP nerfed logi suits and changed the bonus of the Caldari logi, I see people complaining about the Gallente logi exclusively. Imho this is because the Gallente assault sucks and has not a single bonus to armor tanking, which creates a massive imbalance between Gallente logi (getting a free complex armor repper) and assault suit.

Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:10:00 - [61] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Never said sidearms are useless. Hell, most of them are good enough to be primaries. I even run a sidearm from time to time when I need the extra CPU/PG for that extra triage hive in a domination match, or a fit to lay out a field of proximity mines. But should I have to all the time just because I can? I use mass drivers to disorient reds for my squad/team a TAC AR to pick off any would be flankers, and a standard AR when the above two aren't viable. Limiting the logistics (or any class for that matter) takes away the principle of versatility this game was supposed to offer. Ask any heavy if they like being shoved into their new role of point defense for example. Is it limiting the role of the assault to not let him carry a heavy weapon? If no, then why is is limiting the logi by not letting him carry a light weapon? How limited would it be if we had ten different sidearms to choose from? You are seeing the game as it is now. I am seeing the game as it would be when all content is actually released. This is CCP, even if every single player in the entire game came into this thread and agreed with it, they wouldn't make the change until months from now, and we should have at least the Magsec by then, if not more. The versatility of this game is gimped by lack of content, let me assure you that there would be no lack of it in the future, limited to a sidearm or not. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 136	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:15:00 - [62] - Quote Repost, so that it doesn't get missed. Logi Bro wrote: 1) Also, I'd like to throw out some stipulations before I make my own argument. First, Amarr logi's, in this situation, would receive a second sidearm slot. 2) Alright, so let me start with the implications. What would happen if every logi had to run a sidearm at this exact moment from now on? Well, I imagine that most logissaults would come to the forums to cry, and to be fair to them, it is a very drastic change, so a respec might be justified in this situation. (when I say respec, I mean specifically SP taken out of logi dropsuit command skills, and nothing else.) 1) Well, that's not really the same, is it? A sidearm is a sidearm and they are quite clearly not designed to be primary weapons: they are distinctly lacking in range which makes them substandard for anything but emergency or close in firefights, and even then you're still at a disadvantage overall. Having two of them is not a fair trade for Amarrian Logis. 2) Yes, because - as you talk about below - people run things how they want to run things. Running dual sidearms because you choose to is an entirely different thing to running a single sidearm only because you are forced to. Speaking as a Logibro, I could care less about K/DR tryhards, but this suggestions is a terrible idea for many reasons. Logi Bro wrote: All pure logistics players, on the other hand, would also likely come to the forums to complain that their light weapon skills are now useless to them, so a respec specifically in the light weapons tree would also be justified. The logistics class as a whole would become more vulnerable, but not actually useless, there are people that run dual sidearms despite having a light weapon slot because they WANT to, I imagine logi's will still be able to defend themselves in CQC. Outside of CQC, of course, they would be shooting practice, so logi's that currently run lone-wolf mode(myself included) would be encouraged to stick close to team-mates to keep them safe over long distance combat. So, you're suggesting that Logistics suits become easy prey at ranges exceeding 20 metres because some people abuse the slot layout for a minor gain? Why are we not buffing up Assault/Heavy/Scout suits again? The issue with Logistics suits is that they 'outshine' all the other classes and it's primarily due to slot layout and **** role bonuses: why don't we increase the Assaults to having the same number (with relevantly increased CPU/PG) and give them an actually useful (non-Racial) Role Bonus (since the Racial Role Bonuses are generally decent, but even they could do with a tweak.)? Logi Bro wrote: Overall, it means that logi's can still combat, but not as effectively as assault players. As for how it would be implemented, I would expect a few buffs to help the logi out with this extreme change. First, the maximum amount of equipment carried should be increased to five, so that Amarr/Caldari would get four slots at the proto tier, and Minmatar/Gallente would get five at proto. Obviously, this is strengthening the logistics role. Overall, it makes the logistics class more logisctic-y. What it would mean is a Logi is relegated to being a pack mule and a battlefield **. The Logistics suit is not meant to be a live target for people to practice their skills on just because they've chosen to actually help the team!* Increasing the amount of slots would not make Logistics suits more appealing as a role when you reduce their offensive capabilities to next to naught: they would be brought out to lay down a plethora of equipment then immediately switched away from once their load was dropped. Logi Bro wrote: Assault suits would become more popular, because a large majority of assault players are currently residing in god-mode logistics suits. Heavy suits would come out of hiding if they thought there was a high chance that they would find a logi bro in most games, and scouts would be pretty much the same. I think removal of the assault suit's equipment slots would be appropriate, to make logistics player more needed on the battlefield, and it would be wise to increase the scout's equipment max to two so that nanohives don't become too rare. Logistics are not god-mode. They have an advantage over Assaults in the EHP department. It is small, but present. The fix is to rebalance - aka, buff - the Assault suits. Heavies would lament the dearth of true Logibros, since their little brothers would be essentially worthless in a firefight over 20 metres. Assaults would ***** that there aren't enough nanohives/links because Logistics are so niche. Scouts would love the second equipment slot and you'd likely see Scouts being brought out as precursors to assaults, laying down uplinks and then people would switch to Logistics when areas need thorough seeding with nanohives. Logistics would be so rare during actual combat because they would be nearly useless. Logi Bro wrote: Overall, I'd say the other classes would be happy not getting outperformed in every way by the logi. Yes. Which is why buffing them is the answer: Assaults: Increase number of slots (with relevant increase in CPU/PG) Increase base stats somewhat to further open the gap and remove the minimal EHP difference that way Alter the Role Bonus such that it is significant to the role (this is difficult because of the various styles Assaults fill; likely a damage mod following a widespread damage reduction, eg, 1% damage per level for light weapons, maybe light and sidearm weapons: ammo bonus could work, perhaps increased clip size and/or spare ammunition) A shake up of the entire bonus system to operate much more like EVE (ie, bonuses are tied to the dropsuit and based on different skills, rather than being tied directly to the skills themselves.)
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 1455	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:17:00 - [63] - Quote First off, I do not Logi. Second, I think it would be a bad idea to take away the Logi self defense ablity. It's not the Logi being able to use a light weapon, it's the Logis that choose to stack DMG mods and maybe a few armour plates that are the problem(nyan san or whatever they are called...cough) Not make DMG mods have a really large stacking penalty and or make it so they draw even more CPU/PG. The guys that are skipping equipment and throwing only dmg mods on proto weapons are going to get real Logis nerfed(as they already did once) I can see making a type-2 suit and giving it two sidearm slots but I can not see taking away light weapons.
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 1667	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:19:00 - [64] - Quote Not going to lie.....I would cry if my amarr logi was restricted to sidearms. If I'm being restricted to sidearms. Than assaults get no grenades. "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle I'll take your Iskies
Cosgar ParagonX 7853	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:21:00 - [65] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Never said sidearms are useless. Hell, most of them are good enough to be primaries. I even run a sidearm from time to time when I need the extra CPU/PG for that extra triage hive in a domination match, or a fit to lay out a field of proximity mines. But should I have to all the time just because I can? I use mass drivers to disorient reds for my squad/team a TAC AR to pick off any would be flankers, and a standard AR when the above two aren't viable. Limiting the logistics (or any class for that matter) takes away the principle of versatility this game was supposed to offer. Ask any heavy if they like being shoved into their new role of point defense for example. Is it limiting the role of the assault to not let him carry a heavy weapon? If no, then why is is limiting the logi by not letting him carry a light weapon? How limited would it be if we had ten different sidearms to choose from? You are seeing the game as it is now. I am seeing the game as it would be when all content is actually released. This is CCP, even if every single player in the entire game came into this thread and agreed with it, they wouldn't make the change until months from now, and we should have at least the Magsec by then, if not more. The versatility of this game is gimped by lack of content, let me assure you that there would be no lack of it in the future, limited to a sidearm or not. Assaults are the most flexible class when it comes to weapon choice. There's quite a few weapons logis wouldn't be caught dead with due to not having access to two weapons. Amarr logi is an exception, but they pay for it for lack of equipment. Even with a variety of sidearms, it's still restricting to be limited to one specific weapon type when every other suit in the game has a wider range. I think you have an issue with seeing the game as it is now. Trying to re-balance something on top of core mechanics imbalance is counter productive. Short TTK puts an emphasis on brick tanking which give logistics an advantage, but really not by much when an a weapon's average DPS matches or exceeds a suits average EHP in what's supposed to be a high health FPS to begin with. Fix the core, then focus on the rest. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 946	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:22:00 - [66] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: Not going to lie.....I would cry if my amarr logi was restricted to sidearms. If I'm being restricted to sidearms. Than assaults get no grenades. I don't think the side arm only restriction should apply to Amarr logi's since they are supposed to be logi-assaults. They should just have some other restriction placed upon them to force them to use equipment as well. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2332	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:22:00 - [67] - Quote Eskel Bondfree wrote: This is not a good idea. What you suggest in the OP would be interesting as an additional specialization of the medium frame suits, but absolutely not as a substitute for the current logi suits. Here are the problems I'm seeing: You are forcing every player to make a decision between being useful in combat, or using equipment as a support character (you wrote it yourself, logis will be useless except for self defense in close combat). As cosgar pointed out, this is the opposite of the idea behind Dust and the fitting system. It limits the possibilities of how you can play this game, and with that it limits the fun you can have with the game and its long term motivation. As I believe we have already established, sidearms do not make you useless in combat, just less useful than light weapons. It just so happens that the sidearms we have now are close range, so at the moment that would be all they would be useful for. Running side arms only is simply boring. There are two weapon classes available: pistols and SMGs. This is an FPS, people want to play with all sorts of different weapons, so don't take the weapons away from them. If you do, you also take away the fun (see above). As I stated in the thread (I can see you skimmed lightly) I would expect CCP to release more sidearms before anything like this would happen. This would mean more choices. The entire concept of the Amarr logi would be nullified and the suit would have to be redone completely. A second side arm does not help at all in combat if you can't engage the enemy with a proper weapon to begin with. Except if you allowed dual wielding, which would be a balancing nightmare for CCP and is very unlikely to happen. A second sidearm is actually VERY powerful, especially on a suit that only carries one weapon to begin with. Also, I have some question: Why do you think that the ability to use a decent weapon is the reason for logi suits appearing OP? Imho, the problem is their ability to equip more modules than any assault suit. Did you ever consider another suggestion that has been around at least as long as the side arm only idea: a role bonuse for logi suits that grants massive reduction to CPU/PG costs of equipment, and a reduction of overall CPU/PG of all logi suits? The change you are proposing leaves logi's with no CPU/PG to fill their slots. Assault suits already have issues filling their slots, if logi suits had the same PG/CPU, but also had more module space and had to fill up equipment slots, how would that in any way be more balanced? Why go ahead and risk a brutal overnerf of a whole play style instead of fixing the obvious problems first? Everyone can see that the boni for assault and logi suits are not appropriate and that the 5 HP/s armor repair for logis is a combat advantage they clearly shouldn't have. This has to be fixed first, then the balance between logi and assault needs to be reevaluated. This is especially true for the Gallente logi and assault. I've already advocated to fix basic issues. I've had threads with far more thought put into them and far more constructive feedback from the community, and a dev never even so much as said, "we're no going to do that." It just died off with no acknowledgement whatsoever. Since CCP is either unwilling or unable to make basic changes, and a logi nerf seems to be on the horizon, I am making a recommendation that would hurt logi's the least. Is there actually a convincing argument anywhere on this forum that all logi suits are in fact OP with respect to their racial assault variants? Since CCP nerfed logi suits and changed the bonus of the Caldari logi, I see people complaining about the Gallente logi exclusively. Imho this is because the Gallente assault sucks and has not a single bonus to armor tanking, which creates a massive imbalance between Gallente logi (getting a free complex armor repper) and assault suit. Try using the dust fitting tool and seeing how much more powerful each logi suit is in comparison to its assault counterpart. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1253	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:24:00 - [68] - Quote Drop all dps by 10%, except maybe the HMG, and then give all assault suits an ADDITIONAL bonus of 1% per level (of assault suit) to their racial weapon dps. I think removing the option for a light weapon does take away from the sandbox feel. If I were developing a mid sized frame most of my EHP and CPU/PG would be very close with bonuses that make the frame better at one role or another. Where I think the logi frame messes up is with the equipment and the slots they are supposed to use. The repair tool and scanner should be a light weapon or sidearm. A rep tool bonus (Amarr) and a weapon slot tool encourages players to give up their weapon for a support tool and gain a bonus or use the suit as the assault suit and lose the abiltiy to rep. We need to hit the suits where it counts and that is the SP gained from wearing them. Make a suit used as intended more profitable than a suit that is performing out of its role. I don't want to lose the ability to use a logi as an assault but it shouldn't do well and I think that using a suit's set of bonuses as a guide to how it is supposed to be used it the best way to encourage suit roles. Make the suit really fu@#$ng good at what it does when the bonuses are used and not much better than a starter if not using them. The suit isn't what needs to be addressed, it is the tools and bonuses given while using those tools. The ability of the suit to make ISK,WP or SP should be hampered if the bonuses are not used. I am even up for removing the built in regen and replacing it with a needle that revives and 5% per level of armor revived. The suit should not stand there not fitted and be better than any other and the logi rep bonus does that. Make us logi use a slot for that repper and trade it with a needle. We can carry a better needle if we want more than the bonus gives. First they should reduce all DPS by 10% and drop an equipment slot or two; make scanners and rep tools use a weapon slot. Rethink all bonuses to all suits and use them to guide players in the suits role on the battlefield and make the use outside of that role difficult or only half as profitable. Finally pull all level based built in reps and replace them with a level based nanite injector. Dr. Gonzo: I hate to say this, but this place is getting to me. I think I'm getting the Fear.
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 1667	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:25:00 - [69] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: Not going to lie.....I would cry if my amarr logi was restricted to sidearms. If I'm being restricted to sidearms. Than assaults get no grenades. I don't think the side arm only restriction should apply to Amarr logi's since they are supposed to be logi-assaults. They should just have some other restriction placed upon them to force them to use equipment as well. My solution to this whole thing. 1. Remove all Dmg mods. 2.require all logi suits to have a max of 1 unfilled equipment slot. Problem solved. Ttk is raised, less slayer logis on the field. "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle I'll take your Iskies
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 1950	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:25:00 - [70] - Quote I hope they do this. But only after a RESPEC. It will be funny to hear all the people screaming about ammo, scans, uplinks, reps, etc. Since this will never happen they should just remove the 10% weapon damage buff and give heavies and assaults damage bonuses to their suits. Increasing the stacking penalties of damage mods would help too. Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.

Oswald Rehnquist 617	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:28:00 - [71] - Quote I actually understand where you are coming from, because even I've contemplated having scout's light weapon slot removed on the basis that CCP is then forced to actually give us some strong unique out of direct combat abilities that came compare wp wise like logistics hae to cement scout utility it would also prevent the "weaker light assault" I'm seeing with scouts. Though this idea wouldn't be popular among scouts, and I perfectly understand why. Back to logis now, the largest irony is that people going against your idea saying that it is to keep things as open as possible, yet the only extremely effective build is literally brick tanking with an AR like weapon for assault, logistics, and scouts, which is a problem that to me implies a not very well fleshed out balance. And with logistics as equipment kings they can effectively operate on this role, but......... Why I disagree with Removing the Light Weapon Slot Thy main problem of the logistics when compared to other suits is that it is very versatile. I disagree with versatility as a feature of any suit because any uniqueness/niche for other suits then have to come from exclusive items like heavy weapons for sentinels only. But am also inclined to keep the the light weapon on the logistics suit it just plain out makes sense role wise due to where they are located on the battlefield. The assaults are going to be at light weapons length, to help contribute you need that range too, plus good assaults can buff each other up with their own equipment which could eat into the logi role, so logis still need that light weapon to operate offensively with their assaults in their trench should that option be taken away from them. The Solution I agree with Now if you drop the logis cpu/pg slightly below that of the assault, and make the general logi bonus 50% reduction to equipment, then the logi would have been cemented on that alone. Logibros still work and logisaults will have to make a damage or tank sacrifice when assaulting. Logis lose out on their racial bonus if they go with cheap equipment, and it now becomes harder to both tank and damage at the same time. Now before anybody says that is not enough we also got to remember that the other suits in the game still have sucky content/racials. So if we give the assault its 5% damage boost, plus racial weapon utility, then there really is no comarison between logis and assaults anymore. We do have to remember that CCP literally left everybody else in the dark, so buffing them for the sake of unique utility is also part of the equation. Below 28 dB
Cosgar ParagonX 7853	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:28:00 - [72] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Drop all dps by 10%, except maybe the HMG, and then give all assault suits an ADDITIONAL bonus of 1% per level (of assault suit) to their racial weapon dps. I think removing the option for a light weapon does take away from the sandbox feel. If I were developing a mid sized frame most of my EHP and CPU/PG would be very close with bonuses that make the frame better at one role or another. Where I think the logi frame messes up is with the equipment and the slots they are supposed to use. The repair tool and scanner should be a light weapon or sidearm. A rep tool bonus (Amarr) and a weapon slot tool encourages players to give up their weapon for a support tool and gain a bonus or use the suit as the assault suit and lose the abiltiy to rep. We need to hit the suits where it counts and that is the SP gained from wearing them. Make a suit used as intended more profitable than a suit that is performing out of its role. I don't want to lose the ability to use a logi as an assault but it shouldn't do well and I think that using a suit's set of bonuses as a guide to how it is supposed to be used it the best way to encourage suit roles. Make the suit really fu@#$ng good at what it does when the bonuses are used and not much better than a starter if not using them. The suit isn't what needs to be addressed, it is the tools and bonuses given while using those tools. The ability of the suit to make ISK,WP or SP should be hampered if the bonuses are not used. I am even up for removing the built in regen and replacing it with a needle that revives and 5% per level of armor revived. The suit should not stand there not fitted and be better than any other and the logi rep bonus does that. Make us logi use a slot for that repper and trade it with a needle. We can carry a better needle if we want more than the bonus gives. First they should reduce all DPS by 10% and drop an equipment slot or two; make scanners and rep tools use a weapon slot. Rethink all bonuses to all suits and use them to guide players in the suits role on the battlefield and make the use outside of that role difficult or only half as profitable. Finally pull all level based built in reps and replace them with a level based nanite injector. Biggest issue is the tagging system. When the CaLogi got nerfed, they hinted that the bonus system would get reworked for all classes and logistcis to better define their roles. That 1HP/s would probably be changed to something equipment oriented, which I'm fine with as long as it's not limited to a specific piece of equipment but something that can affect a wide variety, including what might be added in the game later. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 457	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:31:00 - [73] - Quote I challenge you to a more interested thread where all the roles are remade as you see fit. Also: I would support more randoms if they wouldn't end up killing themselves and me with them. Thank you.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1105	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:42:00 - [74] - Quote You get a like (despite being a part of the farmer empire). I've been running Sidearm-Only Logi for closing in on a year now (I will admit that I have some assault fits, though they are predominantly for AV, outside of swarms they are Sidearm-Only as well). I make no claims of being elite, though I feel that I am in no way hindered in my ability to provide logistical support to my squad/team (in fact, I'd go so far as to say that it gives me greater ability to support my squad/team). I would welcome such a change (as well as the deluge of Assport Logi tears ) and I commend you for taking up the fight as I grew tired of beating my head bloody against the wall. Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
Brynjar Reko Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 30	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:44:00 - [75] - Quote As a scout, I am used to running sidearm only sometimes as a way to get more out of my fit and as I am never useful at range anyway, the smg is always a useful weapon to me. I don't know about removing the speed nerf but I'm sure playtesting would show whether they need it, which they might with only sidearms. Giving Amarr a light weapon is a mistake though I think, perhaps an additional secondary or grenade but giving them and only them a light weapon makes the other change irrelevant, anyone that wanted to assault logi would hide in an Amarr suit and complain until it was put back to the old way.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4519	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:45:00 - [76] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves. But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence? ISK is not a balancing point. Base HP doesn't matter when you get more slots and 5hp/s on armor. *Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant* *Beta Vet* *Level 4 Forum Warrior*
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4519	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:46:00 - [77] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? Cosgar, that is your stupidest argument you ever made. Taking away a class's means to defend itself in a FPS isn't a stupid idea? If this was such a great idea, wouldn't a dev had responded to one of the 5938745073405 nerf logi topics before this? Hell, they could've done this when they nerfed the CaLogi. But... If it only needed something for self defense, then an SMG would do... Unless of course you want to rush forward, which would require something more potent like an assault rifle ;) *Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant* *Beta Vet* *Level 4 Forum Warrior*
Cosgar ParagonX 7855	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:47:00 - [78] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves. But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence? ISK is not a balancing point. Base HP doesn't matter when you get more slots and 5hp/s on armor. Didn't say ISK was a balancing point, you did. But like everyone lately, you seem to come from the school of thought that the only module slots in this game available are shield extenders and armor plates. If this were the case, then sure logis would be OP, but it isn't. But let's see how much of a balancing aspect ISK might have in 1.7 FW. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4519	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:47:00 - [79] - Quote Atiim wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Atiim wrote: Pwease don't take away my crutch I never at any point said logi's need to be at the back repping. I have used sidearms and they are far more powerful that people give them credit for, logi's would in no way be useless in combat. Ask Cat Merc what he thinks of 'not being able to do everything at once,' because I'm pretty sure he did the math and found Gal logi can brick tank plus damage stack, that's doing two things at once that the assault could only do one at a time. Resulting to immature post editing I see? Again. Post a youtube video of you and an entire squad using nothing but sidearms. And remember that not everyone can afford to run PRO gear (even sidearms) 24/7. So make your squad use ONE STD or ADV sidearm. (Logistics only have 1 weapon slot, so you should only use one sidearm). If sidearms are so viable, then why don't we make Assaults use sidearms only? Because it's idiotic and unnecessary? Well so is the idea of forcing the Logistics class to use sidearms. Again, I'd love to see someone try to brick tank my Minmatar Logistics and have complex damage mods while still having enough CPU/PG for PRO equipment. Go on I'm waiting. A brick tanked, high DPS suit is an Assault. What was Cat Merc's equipment? If It wasn't ADV or PRO then I refuse to count that as being a medic. Therefore, Cat Merc had a good assault fit but a terrible medic fit. Also, what Logistics do you use? My equipment was two triage hives (proto), a gauged hive (proto), and an advanced scanner. So does my fit count yet *Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant* *Beta Vet* *Level 4 Forum Warrior*
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 457	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:48:00 - [80] - Quote Brynjar Reko wrote: As a scout, I am used to running sidearm only sometimes as a way to get more out of my fit and as I am never useful at range anyway, the smg is always a useful weapon to me. I don't know about removing the speed nerf but I'm sure playtesting would show whether they need it, which they might with only sidearms. Giving Amarr a light weapon is a mistake though I think, perhaps an additional secondary or grenade but giving them and only them a light weapon makes the other change irrelevant, anyone that wanted to assault logi would hide in an Amarr suit and complain until it was put back to the old way. 'A speed nerf' and the word logistics, don't go hand in hand. The times I couldn't jump over a stupid elevation,.... and a teammate got killed because I couldn't reach him fast enough... Luckily we have more slots to put stuff into like cardiac regs, but then everyone complains that we use those extra slots for assault-reasons, those complainers never think about the other side do they?

Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 948	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:48:00 - [81] - Quote Good point Cat Merc. Side arms are potent PDW (personal defense weapons) in in close quarters the SMG will frequently own an AR. Especially the assault SMG, that thing is a beast. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Cosgar ParagonX 7857	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:49:00 - [82] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? Cosgar, that is your stupidest argument you ever made. Taking away a class's means to defend itself in a FPS isn't a stupid idea? If this was such a great idea, wouldn't a dev had responded to one of the 5938745073405 nerf logi topics before this? Hell, they could've done this when they nerfed the CaLogi. But... If it only needed something for self defense, then an SMG would do... Unless of course you want to rush forward, which would require something more potent like an assault rifle ;) What about sitting behind a squad lobbing MD rounds or using a TAC AR? There's way to much emphasis on an easy mode weapon. Make it less easy mode and see how OP a logi really is. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
ADAM-OF-EVE Svartur Bjorn 483	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:50:00 - [83] - Quote lol... some of these suggestions people are making are beyond stupid this whole thing is the tank/av argument all over again but just in another format. Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99075&find
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4521	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:53:00 - [84] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves. But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence? ISK is not a balancing point. Base HP doesn't matter when you get more slots and 5hp/s on armor. Didn't say ISK was a balancing point, you did. But like everyone lately, you seem to come from the school of thought that the only module slots in this game available are shield extenders and armor plates. If this were the case, then sure logis would be OP, but it isn't. But let's see how much of a balancing aspect ISK might have in 1.7 FW. Cosgar, I am not even sure if you tried a proto assault suit, and then compared it's racial counterpart to the logi. I have, and at least when it comes to the Gallente, it far outperforms the Assault. There is no ***** denying it, when my Logi can get 1.5x the armor of my assault, 3x damage mods, a duvolle, and in addition to that 4 equipment. My assault is limited to 2x damage mods, a GEK 38, and one equipment. That's *** dumb as . Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant Beta Vet Level 4 Forum Warrior**
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation Zero-Day 3	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:54:00 - [85] - Quote Making Logis a sidearm only class is a terrible idea. 1) Every suit needs the capability to engage at medium range.Scouts have speed and stealth to close the distance. Heavies have sheer amount of HP. Logis do not. Running slowly across the map under a hail of AR rounds, mass driver shells, fighting scouts in close quarters combat with shotguns, engaging heavys with 1k hp with just a sub machine gun is suicide. Logis will die before they can get near the front line to rep, resupply, and revive. 2) Having no side arm is a enough of a handicap. I have lost many a logi suit reloading my weapon while the assault suit just switches to thier side arm. I've killed many logi suits with my assault suits doing the same thing. In terms of damage output the assault has an overwhelming advantage. 3)Sidearms limited in number. Restricting an entire player base to nova knives, scrambler pistols and SMGs deprives logistic players of all the content DUST 514 has to offer. 4) Sidearms are no match class by class for light weapons. Which is self evident, as sidearms are meant for back up. 5) Stop comparing proto logis to regular suits. Sure your basic suit got crushed by a proto gallente logi rocking a duvolle. Since when have you seen basic/ adv assault get crushed by a basic adv logi suit? 6) Stop the unfair comparision of WP earning. So far the only distinct advantage logis have is the amount of warpoints they can earn. But nanohives, uplinks, scanners, repair tools etc take massive amounts of sp to skill into rather than assaults who can just by pass the whole lot. Basic and adv logis get killed a lot, using their light weapons already Those wp comes at a price of isk, kd, and a ton of precious SP and saves every other class money, and sp (logis invest in nanocircutry so you don't have too). So called 'slayers' might whine about this, yet compared to Dropship pilots slayers bask in glory. 7) Players have the right to be versatile. If a player wants to take advantage of a proto logi cpu and PG, well after investing 2 million plus SP in just the suit why shouldn't they? Because they killed you? Assaults don't have a special right to be the end all of killers and WP earners in DUST. Logis dont cry about assaults using a needle to stick players. Heavies with ARs turn my stomach, but i'm not going to remove access to light weapons for heavy suits.Scouts use shotguns, but i'm not goin to restrict scouts to only shotguns. Players earn the sp, they have right to spend it anywhere they want. 8) you are ignoring the logi/heavy balance. Logi protects heavy at long range, and reps heavy. Heavy annihlates at close range while getting reppe by logi. they already protect the other. Instead you wnt the logi heavy combo to be close range only, and then both of them gets annihilated bu assauls. Thats Bull s'**t. 9) Realize your are only advocating for your self. Its fine you dont like the idea of logis being able to defend themselves, and clones they run out to revive. If you like running a logis suit with the bare minimum of weaponry at a distinct disadvantage to every suit in the game is fine.But that's you. I like the idea of shooting the enemy 50 m away that nearly took down the heavy i'm repping. I like forcing enemies from range into cover before i stab a clone, get him up to 50% hp, and the both of us engage. You want logis to do that with a pistol? You want logis to depend assault players? You might call your self a logi, but you are the only supposed logi i've seen that wants thier class to become useless. I hereby reject your claim logis should be sidearm only.
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 1667	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:55:00 - [86] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: My solution to this whole thing. 1. Remove all Dmg mods. 2.require all logi suits to have a max of 1 unfilled equipment slot. Problem solved. Ttk is raised, less slayer logis on the field. Quoting so it doesn't get lost. "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle I'll take your Iskies
Cosgar ParagonX 7857	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:58:00 - [87] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar, I am not even sure if you tried a proto assault suit, and then compared it's racial counterpart to the logi. I have, and at least when it comes to the Gallente, it far outperforms the Assault. There is no ***** denying it, when my Logi can get 1.5x the armor of my assault, 3x damage mods, a duvolle, and in addition to that 4 equipment. My assault is limited to 2x damage mods, a GEK 38, and one equipment. That's *** dumb as . Same ** happened to the Caldari assault/logi. I'm telling you, it's not the suits, but core mechanic imbalance and lack of core content. You're ignoring the big picture and looking at little short term problems that could be fixed when the big ones are. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4522	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:03:00 - [88] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Making Logis a sidearm only class is a terrible idea. 1) Every suit needs the capability to engage at medium range.Scouts have speed and stealth to close the distance. Heavies have sheer amount of HP. Logis do not. Running slowly across the map under a hail of AR rounds, mass driver shells, fighting scouts in close quarters combat with shotguns, engaging heavys with 1k hp with just a sub machine gun is suicide. Logis will die before they can get near the front line to rep, resupply, and revive. 2) Having no side arm is a enough of a handicap. I have lost many a logi suit reloading my weapon while the assault suit just switches to thier side arm. I've killed many logi suits with my assault suits doing the same thing. In terms of damage output the assault has an overwhelming advantage. 3)Sidearms limited in number. Restricting an entire player base to nova knives, scrambler pistols and SMGs deprives logistic players of all the content DUST 514 has to offer. 4) Sidearms are no match class by class for light weapons. Which is self evident, as sidearms are meant for back up. 5) Stop comparing proto logis to regular suits. Sure your basic suit got crushed by a proto gallente logi rocking a duvolle. Since when have you seen basic/ adv assault get crushed by a basic adv logi suit? 6) Stop the unfair comparision of WP earning. So far the only distinct advantage logis have is the amount of warpoints they can earn. But nanohives, uplinks, scanners, repair tools etc take massive amounts of sp to skill into rather than assaults who can just by pass the whole lot. Basic and adv logis get killed a lot, using their light weapons already Those wp comes at a price of isk, kd, and a ton of precious SP and saves every other class money, and sp (logis invest in nanocircutry so you don't have too). So called 'slayers' might whine about this, yet compared to Dropship pilots slayers bask in glory. 7) Players have the right to be versatile. If a player wants to take advantage of a proto logi cpu and PG, well after investing 2 million plus SP in just the suit why shouldn't they? Because they killed you? Assaults don't have a special right to be the end all of killers and WP earners in DUST. Logis dont cry about assaults using a needle to stick players. Heavies with ARs turn my stomach, but i'm not going to remove access to light weapons for heavy suits.Scouts use shotguns, but i'm not goin to restrict scouts to only shotguns. Players earn the sp, they have right to spend it anywhere they want. 8) you are ignoring the logi/heavy balance. Logi protects heavy at long range, and reps heavy. Heavy annihlates at close range while getting reppe by logi. they already protect the other. Instead you wnt the logi heavy combo to be close range only, and then both of them gets annihilated bu assauls. Thats Bull s't. 9) Realize your are only advocating for your self. Its fine you dont like the idea of logis being able to defend themselves, and clones they run out to revive. If you like running a logis suit with the bare minimum of weaponry at a distinct disadvantage to every suit in the game is fine.But that's you. I like the idea of shooting the enemy 50 m away that nearly took down the heavy i'm repping. I like forcing enemies from range into cover before i stab a clone, get him up to 50% hp, and the both of us engage. You want logis to do that with a pistol? You want logis to depend assault players? You might call your self a logi, but you are the only supposed logi i've seen that wants thier class to become useless. I hereby reject your claim logis should be sidearm only. 1. Why? Is there any design choice from CCP that says this must always be true? 2. Congrats, I saw myself tank the damage while I reloaded in my logi and then continued to murder the person. 3. That's now, there are more coming. 4. SMG's often beat assault rifles in CQC. Scrambler pistols were once called OP because of their incredible headshot damage. 5. Uhh... We're comparing both proto, I have no idea where you got that idea. 6. Logis have more advantages than WP, much more. 7. Assaults, Scouts, Sentinels, Commandos can't do all of that. Why should logis be allowed? 8. Uhhh... Heavy is capable of using Assault rifles you know.... 9. If it was self defense you wouldn't care as SMG's are potent. And personally? It doesn't matter what CCP does, I have both proto logi and assault and my logi beats the crap out of the assault. If they aren't going to change it, I guess I'll just use my logi Conclusion: This was a wall of text with zero sense, and whoever liked you should be ashamed of themselves of not reading it properly Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant Beta Vet Level 4 Forum Warrior**
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4522	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:04:00 - [89] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar, I am not even sure if you tried a proto assault suit, and then compared it's racial counterpart to the logi. I have, and at least when it comes to the Gallente, it far outperforms the Assault. There is no ***** denying it, when my Logi can get 1.5x the armor of my assault, 3x damage mods, a duvolle, and in addition to that 4 equipment. My assault is limited to 2x damage mods, a GEK 38, and one equipment. That's *** dumb as . Same happened to the Caldari assault/logi. I'm telling you, it's not the suits, but core mechanic imbalance and lack of core content. You're ignoring the big picture and looking at little short term problems that could be fixed when the big ones are. I have a friend who is like me but Amarr. He reports the same results. I have a friend with Minmatar stuff, and he reports similar results. This is accross the logi suits, not just the Gallente one. Also, what is the bigger picture? What is the core mechanic imbalance? Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant Beta Vet Level 4 Forum Warrior**
Cosgar ParagonX 7863	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:09:00 - [90] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar, I am not even sure if you tried a proto assault suit, and then compared it's racial counterpart to the logi. I have, and at least when it comes to the Gallente, it far outperforms the Assault. There is no ***** denying it, when my Logi can get 1.5x the armor of my assault, 3x damage mods, a duvolle, and in addition to that 4 equipment. My assault is limited to 2x damage mods, a GEK 38, and one equipment. That's *** dumb as . Same ** happened to the Caldari assault/logi. I'm telling you, it's not the suits, but core mechanic imbalance and lack of core content. You're ignoring the big picture and looking at little short term problems that could be fixed when the big ones are. I have a friend who is like me but Amarr. He reports the same results. I have a friend with Minmatar stuff, and he reports similar results. This is accross the logi suits, not just the Gallente one. Also, what is the bigger picture? What is the core mechanic imbalance? I have a friend with both Minmatar logi and assault, he likes the assault more. I have afriend with both Amarr logi and assault, he likes them both given the situation. I have a friend with Gallente logi and assault... yeah, I can say the same anecdotal drivel too. If you haven't seen the complaints about ScRs, ARs, and TTK on here, are you living under a rock. Dust is pretty FUBAR right now and nerfing one suit isn't going to magically fix the core problem(s) by a country mile. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Oswald Rehnquist 619	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:13:00 - [91] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Also, what is the bigger picture? What is the core mechanic imbalance? The core mechanic imbalance is the cpu/pg combined with many slots to not have to compromised, meaning light weapons are not the most optimal changes. Logis should be with assaults, meaning they will be at the same range from hostile enemy assaults. Thus a light weapon makes sense. A sidearm only logi means that assaults should lose their equipment slot. Reduce logi cpu/pg below assaults and give them a 50% reduction to equipment, does several things 1) going cheap on equipment means the logi loses out on his bonus has ends up with less than the assault due to lower cpu/pg 2) They can't stack tank and damage at the same time because the reduction is in equipment 3) They can still engage their enemies with their assaults assuming there is no support needed. Below 28 dB
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4523	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:15:00 - [92] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar, I am not even sure if you tried a proto assault suit, and then compared it's racial counterpart to the logi. I have, and at least when it comes to the Gallente, it far outperforms the Assault. There is no ***** denying it, when my Logi can get 1.5x the armor of my assault, 3x damage mods, a duvolle, and in addition to that 4 equipment. My assault is limited to 2x damage mods, a GEK 38, and one equipment. That's *** dumb as . Same happened to the Caldari assault/logi. I'm telling you, it's not the suits, but core mechanic imbalance and lack of core content. You're ignoring the big picture and looking at little short term problems that could be fixed when the big ones are. I have a friend who is like me but Amarr. He reports the same results. I have a friend with Minmatar stuff, and he reports similar results. This is accross the logi suits, not just the Gallente one. Also, what is the bigger picture? What is the core mechanic imbalance? I have a friend with both Minmatar logi and assault, he likes the assault more. I have afriend with both Amarr logi and assault, he likes them both given the situation. I have a friend with Gallente logi and assault... yeah, I can say the same anecdotal drivel too. If you haven't seen the complaints about ScRs, ARs, and TTK on here, are you living under a rock. Dust is pretty FUBAR right now and nerfing one suit isn't going to magically fix the core problem(s) by a country mile. There are multiple problems to fix. Sure, TTK is low, but that doesn't change that logis were, and still are, the best suit. Also, I trust these people. Especially since the Gallente Logi beats the crap from the Gallente Assault, which leads me to believe the rest of the logis are similar. Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant Beta Vet Level 4 Forum Warrior**
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 458	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:19:00 - [93] - Quote I don't get how everyone seems to understand that "There are multiple problems to fix." but then try to discuss the ONE thing closest to their playstyle. Time to discuss how DUST 2.0 should look like, because you know it, 1.7 isn't going to meet the hopes of us all.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 948	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:20:00 - [94] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: There are multiple problems to fix. Sure, TTK is low, but that doesn't change that logis were, and still are, the best suit. Also, I trust these people. Especially since the Gallente Logi beats the crap from the Gallente Assault, which leads me to believe the rest of the logis are similar. It is the EHP that makes the Gallente Logi so superiour to the Gallente Assault. In one-v-one combat those extra 300 hp the Gal logi can pack make it hard as hell to take down for a Gal Assault. I only say this because I run Gal Assault and end up in these kinds of conflicts regularly. The assault will win if he gets the drop on the logi (assuming similar player skill and SP) but if they both start shooting at the same time the logi will definitely win. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Broonfondle Majikthies Bannana Boat Corp Relentless Heroes Alliance 434	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:20:00 - [95] - Quote oh for the love of god not this again. We are COMBAT logistics. we should be able to defend ourselves, even at range. Were not as versatile as assaults and that is enough. If the rifles work as intended this will solve a lot of issues "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
Cosgar ParagonX 7867	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:21:00 - [96] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar, I am not even sure if you tried a proto assault suit, and then compared it's racial counterpart to the logi. I have, and at least when it comes to the Gallente, it far outperforms the Assault. There is no ***** denying it, when my Logi can get 1.5x the armor of my assault, 3x damage mods, a duvolle, and in addition to that 4 equipment. My assault is limited to 2x damage mods, a GEK 38, and one equipment. That's *** dumb as . Same ** happened to the Caldari assault/logi. I'm telling you, it's not the suits, but core mechanic imbalance and lack of core content. You're ignoring the big picture and looking at little short term problems that could be fixed when the big ones are. I have a friend who is like me but Amarr. He reports the same results. I have a friend with Minmatar stuff, and he reports similar results. This is accross the logi suits, not just the Gallente one. Also, what is the bigger picture? What is the core mechanic imbalance? I have a friend with both Minmatar logi and assault, he likes the assault more. I have afriend with both Amarr logi and assault, he likes them both given the situation. I have a friend with Gallente logi and assault... yeah, I can say the same anecdotal drivel too. If you haven't seen the complaints about ScRs, ARs, and TTK on here, are you living under a rock. Dust is pretty FUBAR right now and nerfing one suit isn't going to magically fix the core problem(s) by a country mile. There are multiple problems to fix. Sure, TTK is low, but that doesn't change that logis were, and still are, the best suit. Also, I trust these people. Especially since the Gallente Logi beats the crap from the Gallente Assault, which leads me to believe the rest of the logis are similar. Minmatar assault/logi are both pretty middle of the road when it comes to dropsuits. Both are hurting right now since they have the lowest average EHP. Amar assault/logi have a really good thing going from what I've seen. Logi is viable on the frontline, but lacks the offensive bonuses that the assault has. In a way, Amarr don't really have a logistics suit. Both are just assaults with different slot layouts. Not sure about the Caldari. I see just as many of both classes and the assault has always been a solid suit. Only assault that has a huge disadvantage is the Gallente assault, but I'd rather see the assault touched before the logi. Shield bonus is about as useful as sharpshooter for nova knives. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4523	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:22:00 - [97] - Quote Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: oh for the love of god not this again. We are COMBAT logistics. we should be able to defend ourselves, even at range. Were not as versatile as assaults and that is enough. If the rifles work as intended this will solve a lot of issues Defend? ok Beat the crap out of assaults in a straight up fight because of superior gear? **** no Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4523	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:23:00 - [98] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Minmatar assault/logi are both pretty middle of the road when it comes to dropsuits. Both are hurting right now since they have the lowest average EHP. Amar assault/logi have a really good thing going from what I've seen. Logi is viable on the frontline, but lacks the offensive bonuses that the assault has. In a way, Amarr don't really have a logistics suit. Both are just assaults with different slot layouts. Not sure about the Caldari. I see just as many of both classes and the assault has always been a solid suit. Only assault that has a huge disadvantage is the Gallente assault, but I'd rather see the assault touched before the logi. Shield bonus is about as useful as sharpshooter for nova knives. "Shield bonus is about as useful as sharpshooter for nova knives." Dude, that's totally my new sig. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Cosgar ParagonX 7867	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:24:00 - [99] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: oh for the love of god not this again. We are COMBAT logistics. we should be able to defend ourselves, even at range. Were not as versatile as assaults and that is enough. If the rifles work as intended this will solve a lot of issues Defend? ok Beat the crap out of assaults in a straight up fight because of superior gear? **** no The proposed idea of sidearm only would work if this were a turn based MMO, but it's not. Dust is first and foremost an FPS. (Even though it doesn't feel like one at times.) I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 891	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:24:00 - [100] - Quote it's irrational to think that ccp is going to limit any suit to sidearms unless a suit is developed to do just that.

Leithe Askarii Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 4	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:25:00 - [101] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: TLDR- Good suggestion, would Logi if only could use Light weapons Yeah I would logi if this were the case and Logi suits got their own frames. That and EWAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4523	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:26:00 - [102] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: oh for the love of god not this again. We are COMBAT logistics. we should be able to defend ourselves, even at range. Were not as versatile as assaults and that is enough. If the rifles work as intended this will solve a lot of issues Defend? ok Beat the crap out of assaults in a straight up fight because of superior gear? **** no The proposed idea of sidearm only would work if this were a turn based MMO, but it's not. Dust is first and foremost an FPS. (Even though it doesn't feel like one at times.) How won't it work? Explain. You have a fricking automatic compact PDW that deals as much damage as an AR but just has less range with sidearms only. Is that not enough shooty? Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Broonfondle Majikthies Bannana Boat Corp Relentless Heroes Alliance 434	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:28:00 - [103] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: oh for the love of god not this again. We are COMBAT logistics. we should be able to defend ourselves, even at range. Were not as versatile as assaults and that is enough. If the rifles work as intended this will solve a lot of issues Defend? ok Beat the crap out of assaults in a straight up fight because of superior gear? **** no You ever get up close to a Logi Sniper? Its pathetic "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4523	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:29:00 - [104] - Quote Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: oh for the love of god not this again. We are COMBAT logistics. we should be able to defend ourselves, even at range. Were not as versatile as assaults and that is enough. If the rifles work as intended this will solve a lot of issues Defend? ok Beat the crap out of assaults in a straight up fight because of superior gear? **** no You ever get up close to a Logi Sniper? Its pathetic Ever get up close to a insert suit here Sniper? It's pathetic. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 458	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:29:00 - [105] - Quote and se still would have more HP than assault suits, only less range so we would still be called OP.... You guys are just having discussions for discussions sake... I'll be back for DUST 2.0. See ya.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 1458	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:29:00 - [106] - Quote RKKR wrote: I don't get how everyone seems to understand that "There are multiple problems to fix." but then try to discuss the ONE thing closest to their playstyle. Time to discuss how DUST 2.0 should look like, because you know it, 1.7 isn't going to meet the hopes of us all. I'd rather they tackle a part of the problem instead of just ignoring it and saying it's fine(coughAssault FG heaviecough) When you don't offer solutions to a problem like this that can be hammered out, then you get sledge that just comes down and wrecks it completely. I don't think taking away the light weapon slot is a good idea, but starting at the end and working your way back is the best way IMO to solve this.
Cosgar ParagonX 7867	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:32:00 - [107] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: oh for the love of god not this again. We are COMBAT logistics. we should be able to defend ourselves, even at range. Were not as versatile as assaults and that is enough. If the rifles work as intended this will solve a lot of issues Defend? ok Beat the crap out of assaults in a straight up fight because of superior gear? **** no The proposed idea of sidearm only would work if this were a turn based MMO, but it's not. Dust is first and foremost an FPS. (Even though it doesn't feel like one at times.) How won't it work? Explain. You have a fricking automatic compact PDW that deals as much damage as an AR but just has less range with sidearms only. Is that not enough shooty? If sidearms are so great, why do so few assaults not use something above a toxin? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 171	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:34:00 - [108] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Eskel Bondfree wrote: You are forcing every player to make a decision between being useful in combat, or using equipment as a support character (you wrote it yourself, logis will be useless except for self defense in close combat). As cosgar pointed out, this is the opposite of the idea behind Dust and the fitting system. It limits the possibilities of how you can play this game, and with that it limits the fun you can have with the game and its long term motivation. As I believe we have already established, sidearms do not make you useless in combat, just less useful than light weapons. It just so happens that the sidearms we have now are close range, so at the moment that would be all they would be useful for. Running side arms only is simply boring. There are two weapon classes available: pistols and SMGs. This is an FPS, people want to play with all sorts of different weapons, so don't take the weapons away from them. If you do, you also take away the fun (see above). As I stated in the thread (I can see you skimmed lightly) I would expect CCP to release more sidearms before anything like this would happen. This would mean more choices. The entire concept of the Amarr logi would be nullified and the suit would have to be redone completely. A second side arm does not help at all in combat if you can't engage the enemy with a proper weapon to begin with. Except if you allowed dual wielding, which would be a balancing nightmare for CCP and is very unlikely to happen. A second sidearm is actually VERY powerful, especially on a suit that only carries one weapon to begin with. I'm quoting your OP here: Quote: What would happen if every logi had to run a sidearm at this exact moment from now on? Outside of CQC, of course, they [the logi suits] would be shooting practice Imho you gave a correct assesment of the situation, and the situation will not change significantly with the release of a Gallente pistol or Caldari SMG. What makes you think CCP ever planned to include sidearms that are suitable for more than self defense or backup outside of close combat? We have no indication of such plans whatsoever, and the very existence of a 'side arm' category as opposed to the light weapon category makes me doubt we will ever see this. If your entire argument relies on CCP implementing a host of new side arms, then you should have started this whole discussion 24 months from now, if those items would have been in the game then. There is no point in advocating a balance proposal that relies on speculative content we might not see until years from know, if ever. As it stands right know, side arms only for logis is a bad idea and it takes away many of the fitting choices a player has. About the Amarr logi: I think you are contradicting yourself now: Logi Bro wrote: Commander Marquess wrote: I believe, if this idea were ever implemented, instead of giving the amarr Logi 2 sidearms that it should instead be given 1 light weapon slot and no sidearm. This way it would live up to its description of a combat oriented Logistics. I can relent to this, it seems like a fair enough argument. I'll make edits in the OP. Please make up your mind, are 2 SMGs, as opposed to just one, suitable for a combat role or not? I say they are not, especially considering basic SMGs on a basic logi. Apparently you thougth the same when you made the comment I quoted (I wrote my own post before you edited the OP). So did you really think this whole proposal through? Because now you advocate to remove light weapons from all logi suits, with the argument that only losing the side arm is not enough to balance them. And at the same time you want to make the Amarr logi exactly what every logi is right now: a suit with more CPU/PG and slots than an assault, but only with a light weapon and no side arm. Well I guess then we will only have one logi that is OP as opposed to all four of them? You have yet to come up with a good solution for the role of the Amarr logi in your side arm only scenario.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4523	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:45:00 - [109] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: oh for the love of god not this again. We are COMBAT logistics. we should be able to defend ourselves, even at range. Were not as versatile as assaults and that is enough. If the rifles work as intended this will solve a lot of issues Defend? ok Beat the crap out of assaults in a straight up fight because of superior gear? **** no The proposed idea of sidearm only would work if this were a turn based MMO, but it's not. Dust is first and foremost an FPS. (Even though it doesn't feel like one at times.) How won't it work? Explain. You have a fricking automatic compact PDW that deals as much damage as an AR but just has less range with sidearms only. Is that not enough shooty? If sidearms are so great, why do so few assaults not use something above a toxin? To save on CPU/PG? We don't have the spare CPU/PG, unlike you. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1105	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:47:00 - [110] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: oh for the love of god not this again. We are COMBAT logistics. we should be able to defend ourselves, even at range. Were not as versatile as assaults and that is enough. If the rifles work as intended this will solve a lot of issues Defend? ok Beat the crap out of assaults in a straight up fight because of superior gear? ** no Hey, hey, don't you "** no" me. Just the other night I beat the crap out of a duvolle wielding assault with my ADV Quantum Scanner. I lol'd heartily. Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta

Cosgar ParagonX 7868	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:48:00 - [111] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: To save on CPU/PG? We don't have the spare CPU/PG, unlike you. Then downgrade that Duvolle to a GEK and get a TT-3 or M209. Since they're good enough for logis to be limited to, it'd be worth giving up a proto weapon right? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 458	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:48:00 - [112] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: To save on CPU/PG? We don't have the spare CPU/PG, unlike you. I'm pretty sure Cosgar is using his logi as intended, meaning he gives up on assault-fit-stuff to bring his equipment while pushing his CPU/PG to the limits. Now you guys are discussing for discussion sake based on two different view-points.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation Zero-Day 9	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:55:00 - [113] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: [ 1. Why? Is there any design choice from CCP that says this must always be true? 2. Congrats, I saw myself tank the damage while I reloaded in my logi and then continued to murder the person. 3. That's now, there are more coming. 4. SMG's often beat assault rifles in CQC. Scrambler pistols were once called OP because of their incredible headshot damage. 5. Uhh... We're comparing both proto, I have no idea where you got that idea. 6. Logis have more advantages than WP, much more. 7. Assaults, Scouts, Sentinels, Commandos can't do all of that. Why should logis be allowed? 8. Uhhh... Heavy is capable of using Assault rifles you know.... 9. If it was self defense you wouldn't care as SMG's are potent. And personally? It doesn't matter what CCP does, I have both proto logi and assault and my logi beats the crap out of the assault. If they aren't going to change it, I guess I'll just use my logi Conclusion: This was a wall of text with zero sense, and whoever liked you should be ashamed of themselves of not reading it properly [/quote] 1) Because logis are on the front lines. Even if you want them soley remain behind the lines repping they have to shoot beyond their lines, at medium to long range. It isnt a design flaw no matter how much you whine about it, its common sense. 2) So you always empty your AR while getting shot, stop shooting to reload while getting hit, tank all the damage, aim again and shoot, before an assault using the same level suit you are empties the same weapon you are using and switches to their sidearm? You must have the greatest armor evaaaarr....or maybe you actually ereload from cover so you dont get annihilated in the open when the enemy switches to a sidearm. Please dont bulls##t. 3) Yeah. Soon TM. 4) Are you insane? Shotguns are light weapons and they destroy SMGs. They are the kings off CQC. Thats why scouts use them. Maps are not restricted to CQC. Come at me on Manus peak with your dual SMGs and me with a SCR. You'll get wrecked all day. 5) What you are advocating affects all levels of logis so i am comparing all classes of logi suits to all classes of assaults. Thats what you conveniently left out. Basic/adv assault suits are far STRONGER than basic/adv logi. Proto logis have a slight advantage because of CPU needed to use PROTO equipment. 6) like what? 7) yes they can within thier roles. Assault, scouts and commandos can fit 1 of every equipmet in that slot, can snipe, cqn rock shotguns, , drop hives, uplinks, run injectors and reppers. I can use any suit and drop links, switch out, seed K2s, switch out, grab a needle to revive. heavies cant, but then heavies can use hmgs and forge guns. Logis do it more sufficiently because that is the purpose they were designed for. Its called 'roles'' silly. 8) They can (don't notice you whining about that), and they are also enormous slow sitting ducks. Thats why they still need and count on logis.The majority of heavies don't run AR with thier suits because assaults are better at that type of warfare. You also must have never seen a heavy with a hmg unleash hell with a logi keeping him alive. 9) SMGs are potent as BACKUP ONLY. Thats why there are no matches where every player on both teams run only sidearms. respone: Your one line troll type questions are pretty easy to answer, and are a good sign that you don't know what the f**k you are talking about. I fly I shoot I rep I tank/ Heavy, Scout, Assault and Logi at range/ I'm the Jack of all trades/ Master of Some
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4524	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:10:00 - [114] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: To save on CPU/PG? We don't have the spare CPU/PG, unlike you. Then downgrade that Duvolle to a GEK and get a TT-3 or M209. Since they're good enough for logis to be limited to, it'd be worth giving up a proto weapon right? I'm already using a GEK? :X Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Cosgar ParagonX 7873	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:12:00 - [115] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: To save on CPU/PG? We don't have the spare CPU/PG, unlike you. Then downgrade that Duvolle to a GEK and get a TT-3 or M209. Since they're good enough for logis to be limited to, it'd be worth giving up a proto weapon right? I'm already using a GEK? :X Then downgrade the GEK to a standard. Remember sidearms are so great, logis will be limited to them. Is that not shooty enough for you? Edit: If this does ever happen, let me respec all my light weapon SP into a scrambler pistol and give kb/m raw input. Let's see how man nerf logi topics come up then. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Tek Hound Death In Xcess Corporation 136	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:15:00 - [116] - Quote Fine with me as long as assaults and scouts give up their equipment slots.Also armor reps logi only
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 950	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:18:00 - [117] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: To save on CPU/PG? We don't have the spare CPU/PG, unlike you. Then downgrade that Duvolle to a GEK and get a TT-3 or M209. Since they're good enough for logis to be limited to, it'd be worth giving up a proto weapon right? I'm already using a GEK? :X None of us is going to argue that the SMG is as good as the AR in every situation, and that is the point Cosgar. By limiting logistics suits to a light weapon we are restricting them to a weapon that excels at CQC but is lacking in aggressive long range combat ability. Assaults typically use a toxin (even on their proto suits) because of fitting issues even with maxed out electronics and engineering. Since assaults need to be able to engage enemies at all ranges they need a high power med range weapon (AR or SCR being the most common of these). The side arm is a back up for use in CQC combat only in the case of the Assault suit. Now a Logi with a proto SMG will be a beast to deal with in CQC but assaults would have a range advantage with their AR. This means that while the Logi will still be able to kill it will be limited to doing so in specific situations. Instead of running into combat at the front of the pack Logis would have to hang back a bit, support their squad, and cover the rear. All roles the SMG and other side arms are suited for. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1105	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:18:00 - [118] - Quote Wow, the Assport Logi have come out in force haven't they? Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
Jastad D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 203	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:19:00 - [119] - Quote Crazy solution for easy solving problems. Make the Equip slot mandatory for the fitting and ONE of them must be in par with the Suit lvl. STD suit- std equip ADV suit- ADV equip PRO suit- pro equip. So we don't **** on REAL logi and with this fake logi go to hell. Forcing a Side on a logo when CCP is about to release a rifle that have 105 m range sound pretty lame. ...and may the FORGE be with you.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 950	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:20:00 - [120] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Edit: If this does ever happen, let me respec all my light weapon SP into a scrambler pistol and give kb/m raw input. Let's see how man nerf logi topics come up then. KBM does have raw input. Its turn speed limits were removed in 1.6. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long

Cosgar ParagonX 7873	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:25:00 - [121] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: To save on CPU/PG? We don't have the spare CPU/PG, unlike you. Then downgrade that Duvolle to a GEK and get a TT-3 or M209. Since they're good enough for logis to be limited to, it'd be worth giving up a proto weapon right? I'm already using a GEK? :X None of us is going to argue that the SMG is as good as the AR in every situation, and that is the point Cosgar. By limiting logistics suits to a light weapon we are restricting them to a weapon that excels at CQC but is lacking in aggressive long range combat ability. Assaults typically use a toxin (even on their proto suits) because of fitting issues even with maxed out electronics and engineering. Since assaults need to be able to engage enemies at all ranges they need a high power med range weapon (AR or SCR being the most common of these). The side arm is a back up for use in CQC combat only in the case of the Assault suit. Now a Logi with a proto SMG will be a beast to deal with in CQC but assaults would have a range advantage with their AR. This means that while the Logi will still be able to kill it will be limited to doing so in specific situations. Instead of running into combat at the front of the pack Logis would have to hang back a bit, support their squad, and cover the rear. All roles the SMG and other side arms are suited for. Assault suit bonus: CPU/PG fitting reduction to all weapons and weapon mods. Assaults get access to better firepower, logis keep their survivability at the cost of less firepower. Sidearms stop being underrated and everyone can STFU about suits so we can ***** about TTK until CCP fixes it. Done and done. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 950	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:27:00 - [122] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Assault suit bonus: CPU/PG fitting reduction to all weapons and weapon mods. Assaults get access to better firepower, logis keep their survivability at the cost of less firepower. Sidearms stop being underrated and everyone can STFU about suits so we can ***** about TTK until CCP fixes it. Done and done. Gallente Assaults already have a bonus like this for all light weapons and it doesn't make it so I can fit a decent side arm or a logi-like tank. I don't think this will solve the problem. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Levithunder Butt Hurt Try Hards 131	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:32:00 - [123] - Quote They buffed repair tools logi's are fine again nuff said (-í° -£-û -í°) Nerf Me If You Dare.
Cosgar ParagonX 7876	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:32:00 - [124] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Cosgar wrote: Assault suit bonus: CPU/PG fitting reduction to all weapons and weapon mods. Assaults get access to better firepower, logis keep their survivability at the cost of less firepower. Sidearms stop being underrated and everyone can STFU about suits so we can *** about TTK until CCP fixes it. Done and done. Gallente Assaults already have a bonus like this for all light weapons and it doesn't make it so I can fit a decent side arm or a logi-like tank. I don't think this will solve the problem. And limiting the most SP and ISK intensive suit class to only 2 viable weapons with massive drawbacks in a FPS is? Logis are more than worth the SP investment. The other suits need to be as well before we touch logistics again. Also, core problems need to be addressed for better balancing. They jumped the gun on the flaylock nerf and now it's barely good at prototype. Let's not do this to an entire suit class we're going to need more than ever in FW next patch. Unless some of the assaults on here want to put down their militia nanohives and carry injectors. Quote:** Edit: How much of a bonus were you thinking? Too much and the Assault players would have proto in every slot (which would make us way OP) too little and it won't make any difference at all. Depends, how much do you think is needed? The idea is for assaults to get something to better reinforce their offensive role better, keep in mind this includes grenades too. Also, give Gallente assault -2% movement penalty per level or +2% plate efficacy per level to give it a better advantage over the logi. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Monkey MAC killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance 988	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:39:00 - [125] - Quote Yet another one of these discussions? Ok before I start I don't currently run logi, but once we get shield bubbles, drones and turrets I plan to become a logi combat engineer! Now, lets be honest short of making the logi absolutely useless, it will always beat the assault because of its flexibility. Now if you take the light weapon off the logi who will want to play it in a supposed high action First Person *SHOOTER. That is the most important thing you should be capable of turning round and shooting people in the face for the hell of it. Yeah sure you could shoot someone withva sidearm, but your not gonna nearly have as much fun. People don't want to play a logi suit purely with the intention of being a pack mule! And what about combat engineers, field mechanics, communications experts, demolitions specialists? What about all those logi suits who's primary goal isn't his equipment? The pen is mightier than the sword* The gun is mightier than both
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 951	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:39:00 - [126] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: Cosgar wrote: Assault suit bonus: CPU/PG fitting reduction to all weapons and weapon mods. Assaults get access to better firepower, logis keep their survivability at the cost of less firepower. Sidearms stop being underrated and everyone can STFU about suits so we can ***** about TTK until CCP fixes it. Done and done. Gallente Assaults already have a bonus like this for all light weapons and it doesn't make it so I can fit a decent side arm or a logi-like tank. I don't think this will solve the problem. And limiting the most SP and ISK intensive suit class to only 2 viable weapons with massive drawbacks in a FPS is? Logis are more than worth the SP investment. The other suits need to be as well before we touch logistics again. Also, core problems need to be addressed for better balancing. They jumped the gun on the flaylock nerf and now it's barely good at prototype. Let's not do this to an entire suit class we're going to need more than ever in FW next patch. Unless some of the assaults on here want to put down their militia nanohives and carry injectors. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you on these points. The SMG and the Scrambler Pistol would be the only two real options at this point, we have a while to go before we get the other side arms I fear, and this would be rather limiting for the logi players. What I'm looking for isn't a nerf for logistics players. I want all the classes to be balanced. If that means increasing the usability of all the classes, great. If it means decreasing the power of one, that is fine too. The only reason we are having this discussion is to go into depth about one possible way to add more balance to all the classes by addressing one class. There are certainly other ways this balance could be obtained and I don't think any of us who is in favor of this change to Logi's would be opposed to discussing any of those other balancing methods. Start a thread Cosgar. Lets talk about class balance as a whole since clearly you feel like we are attacking you with our conversation being directed at how to rebalance via the logistics class. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 951	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:41:00 - [127] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: And what about combat engineers, field mechanics, communications experts, demolitions specialists? What about all those logi suits who's primary goal isn't his equipment? All of the roles you just mentioned would be equipment focused roles in DUST. Fun > Realism
Cosgar ParagonX 7877	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:43:00 - [128] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Cosgar wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: Cosgar wrote: Assault suit bonus: CPU/PG fitting reduction to all weapons and weapon mods. Assaults get access to better firepower, logis keep their survivability at the cost of less firepower. Sidearms stop being underrated and everyone can STFU about suits so we can ***** about TTK until CCP fixes it. Done and done. Gallente Assaults already have a bonus like this for all light weapons and it doesn't make it so I can fit a decent side arm or a logi-like tank. I don't think this will solve the problem. And limiting the most SP and ISK intensive suit class to only 2 viable weapons with massive drawbacks in a FPS is? Logis are more than worth the SP investment. The other suits need to be as well before we touch logistics again. Also, core problems need to be addressed for better balancing. They jumped the gun on the flaylock nerf and now it's barely good at prototype. Let's not do this to an entire suit class we're going to need more than ever in FW next patch. Unless some of the assaults on here want to put down their militia nanohives and carry injectors. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. On these points. The SMG and the Scrambler Pistol would be the only two real options at this point., we have a while to go before we get the other side arms I fear, and this would be rather limiting for the logi players. What I'm looking for isn't a nerf for logistics players. I want all the classes to be balanced. If that means increasing the usability of all the classes, great. If it means decreasing the power of one, that is fine too. The only reason we are having this discussion is to go into depth about one possible way to add more balance to all the classes by addressing one class. There are certainly other ways this balance could be obtained and I don't think any of us who is in favor of this change to Logi's would be opposed to discussing any of those other balancing methods. Start a thread Cosgar. Lets talk about class balance as a whole since clearly you feel like we are attacking you with our conversation being directed at how to rebalance via the logistics class. What's the point of starting another thread? It's just going to turn into another 10+ page nerf logi thread just like every one before it. Besides, I'd rather talk about core mechanics that are stopping people from wanting to play. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 610	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:46:00 - [129] - Quote Hi my name is RydogV and I am a "True Logi' through and through. I have played Logistics (primarily triage-based) since Closed Beta. I can count the number of times I entered the Burnzone without all my equipment slots filled on one hand. A 'sidearm only' restriction is probably THE WORST effort at a compromise that has yet been forwarded to stop everyone from feeling sad because the so called 'Assault' Logi's that apparently ruining the game. A premise I do not completely subscribe to. The only 'solution' to the 'problem' is to make the Assault Class more appealing as a frontline combat option. You do this by making the suits better via changes in Bonuses and such. Here is an example of such an idea. It is neither ideal or inflexible. It was just a jumping off point to move the discussion into a more plausible light. Read it or don't. All I know is that if, as a Logistics player, I am forced to use a friggin' sidearm only, I will simply switch to another class. RydogV wrote: Putting the Assault back into Assault Dropsuits As most of you know, there is always this ongoing debate about how Assault dropsuits are not as effective at frontline combat when compared to Logistics dropsuits fitted for a slayer role. While I think the gap is not as significant as it is made out to be on the Dust forums, I do recognize there is room for some improvements. Now many argue that the best way to address the perceived imbalance is to some how nerf the Logistics dropsuit. Things like reducing module slots, reducing CPU/PG, making equipment slots mandatory and limiting Logis to only sidearm weapons have all been suggested. However, I believe the best solution is to make Assault dropsuits better, by enhancing their offensive capability. This can be done by adjusting some simple game mechanics and rethinking role and race bonuses for both the Assault and Logistics classes. Step one would be to dial back the 10% buff given to Light Weapons a few updates ago. Step two would be to reduce the damage increase of Weapons Damage Modules. Militia/Basic to +2%, Advanced to +3% and Prototype to +5%. The stacking penalty for these modules would also be double their current rate. Step three would be to change the current Assault bonus (+5% Shield Recharge Rate at each level) to something more fitting the slayer role. This would be a +2% Damage Increase to Light Weapons at each level. This way the Assault class become the more appealing choice for frontline combat by giving it the chance to regain that 10% damage buff at the highest level. Some adjustments to racial bonuses would also include: Amarr: 5% Reduction to laser weapon heat build-up (stays the same) Caldari: 3% Increase to max ammo (change from +2% efficacy to shield extenders) Gallente: 5% Reduction to weapon CPU/PG (change from -5% to hybrid weapon CPU/PG) Minmatar: 5% Increase to Light and Sidearm weapon clip size (change from +5% to sidearm clip size) Step four would be to change some current Logistics racial bonuses. Logistics would keep the role bonus of +1 HP of Dropsuit Armor Repair, since there is generally no one to heal the healer and survivability is key in a support role. Changes to racial bonuses include: Amarr: 5% Reduction to active scanner CPU/PG (change from +5% efficacy to armor repair modules) Caldari: 5% Reduction to nano equipment CPU/PG (change from +5% efficacy to shield regulators) Gallente: 5% Reduction to repair tool CPU/PG (change from -5% to equipment CPU/PG) Minmatar: 5% Increase to hacking speed (stays the same) Aside from the increase in damage output for Assault, the racial bonuses all now reflect important improvements in offensive weapon capability. Amarr remains the same with bonuses to Lasers and Scrambler Rifles; Caldari gets increased ammo, crucial for weapons like Mass Drivers and Swarm Launchers; Gallente gets significant CPU/PG savings from both weapons slots; and Minmatar gets larger magazines to offset its low HP. The changes to Logistics don't take away from its durability with the inherent armor repair but do put more emphasis on support bonuses. The higher DPS potential of the Assault class, combined with the reduced effectiveness of Damage Modules, would make the Logistics suit a less capable platform for frontline combat. Comments welcome
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 951	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:47:00 - [130] - Quote Cosgar wrote: What's the point of starting another thread? It's just going to turn into another 10+ page nerf logi thread just like every one before it. Besides, I'd rather talk about core mechanics that are stopping people from wanting to play. Maybe this is wrongheaded of me but I feel like class imbalances are on of the core mechanics that is stopping people from wanting to play. That is just my 2 isk though. Fun > Realism

ACE OF JOKERS AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 60	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:49:00 - [131] - Quote So..OVerall, people like me that Run Sidearms only in their Logi suits will just get a buff. nice. Now we have ALL the slots for tanking because now i dont need them to increase stamina or speed. I just put in 1 Cx Profiledampner and tank. 2 Cx Sidearm dam mods and go crazy in a Fast 800+ EHP scout? Bro, if you want the sidearm only logi , its ok, but do not buff their speed and stamina. They have slots to fix that if wanted...
Cosgar ParagonX 7878	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:51:00 - [132] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Cosgar wrote: What's the point of starting another thread? It's just going to turn into another 10+ page nerf logi thread just like every one before it. Besides, I'd rather talk about core mechanics that are stopping people from wanting to play. Maybe this is wrongheaded of me but I feel like class imbalances are on of the core mechanics that is stopping people from wanting to play. That is just my 2 isk though. Think of why this topic exists right now. This isn't about a logi with a mass driver. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Monkey MAC killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance 988	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:54:00 - [133] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: And what about combat engineers, field mechanics, communications experts, demolitions specialists? What about all those logi suits who's primary goal isn't his equipment? All of the roles you just mentioned would be equipment focused roles in DUST. Combat Engineer won't be he deploys force multiplying equipment before joining the fight, he will spent his time fighting along side the assault suits. Field mechanics depend entirely on how they are used. Comms expert would probably work with more passive modules, hacking etc. Demolitions has a very narrow use he will spend time mostly with his gun, not his explosives! The pen is mightier than the sword The gun is mightier than both
m twiggz Eternal Beings 146	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:54:00 - [134] - Quote In the OP you asked us to argue our opinion if we disagree with your argument. Since you provided no actual information or statistics, just blatant opinions, I'll provide them for you. (All stats in this post will be based on a Logistic ck.0 suit as well as an Assault ck.0 suit, with all skills to level 5. Both of which I have, have played with, and will attest that the assault suit is by far a better slayer suit.) You say that the Logistic suits can run multiple roles while being sufficient at both of them, ending in a "god-mode" Logistic suit setup. Your OPINION is untrue. Heres the facts; Logistics ck.0 (logiassault) LW: Duvolle Assault Rifle G: Locus Grenade H: Complex Light Damage Modifier H: Complex Light Damage Modifier H: Complex Light Damage Modifier H: Complex Shield Extender H: Complex Shield Extender L: Complex Armor Plates L: Enhanced Armor Plates L: Enhanced Armor Plates L: Enhanced Armor Plates E: Empty E: Empty E: Empty Shield - 370; Armor - 624; Total EHP - 994; Movement - 4.3; Sprint - 6.32 Damage - 54.35 Assault ck.0 LW: Duvolle Assault Rifle S: Toxin' ICD-9 Submachine Gun G: Locus Grenade H: Complex Light Damage Modifier H: Complex Light Damage Modifier H: Complex Light Damage Modifier H: Complex Shield Extender L: Complex Armor Plates L: Enhanced Armor Plates L: Enhanced Armor Plates Shield - 342; Armor - 540; Total EHP - 882; Movement - 4.59; Sprint - 6.75 Damage - 54.35 In this example the Logistic ck.0 suit is fulfilling two roles; Assault (stacked damage mods) as well as "Brick Tanking". The DPS of both the Logistic ck.0 suit and the Assault ck.0 suit is at 54.35. The only clear cut advantage here is the total EHP of the Logistic ck.0 suit over the Assault ck.0 suit with a mere 112 EHP. At the given damage thats only an extra two bullets that the Logistic ck.0 suit can take over the Assault ck.0 suit. In my eyes, or in my opinion, thats really not a "god-mode" advantage. Especially if you factor in the speed and movement advantage of the Assault ck.0 suit over the Logistic ck.0 suit (both stats are included above), as well as the Assault ck.0 suit having a sidearm, which can provide extra DPS while the Logistic ck.0 suit would have to take cover and reload. Logi Bro wrote: Not specifically the light weapon, but the light weapon combined with everything else. It is just a better assault without the sidearm. With that being said, YES the Logistic ck.0 suit has somewhat of an advantage over the Assault ck.0 suit while the Logistic ck.0 suit is being used as an assaultlogi. But is this difference "god-mode" like? No. - Logistic suits being required to fill all equipment slots and still being better than an Assault suit. Logistics ck.0 (logiassault with equipment required) LW: Duvolle Assault Rifle G: Locus Grenade H: Complex Light Damage Modifier H: Complex Light Damage Modifier H: Complex Light Damage Modifier H: Complex Shield Extender H: Complex Shield Extender L: Enhanced Armor Plates L: Enhanced Armor Plates L: Enhanced Armor Plates L: Basic Armor Plates E: Compact Nanohive E: Compact Nanohive E: Compact Nanohive Shield - 370; Armor - 569; Total EHP - 939; Movement - 4.37; Sprint - 6.43 Damage - 54.35 Assault ck.0 LW: Duvolle Assault Rifle S: Toxin' ICD-9 Submachine Gun G: Locus Grenade H: Complex Light Damage Modifier H: Complex Light Damage Modifier H: Complex Light Damage Modifier H: Complex Shield Extender L: Complex Armor Plates L: Enhanced Armor Plates L: Enhanced Armor Plates Shield - 342; Armor - 540; Total EHP - 882; Movement - 4.59; Sprint - 6.75 Damage - 54.35 Logi Bro wrote: Let me just say that running the logi without the equipment is the entire reason this is a problem. Obviously they are not running logistics if you call them logissaults. Making it required to fit all the equipment slots would simply make it so people would fill all the slots with basic nanite injectors, it fills the parameters, and uses a measly amount of CPU/PG. In this option the Logistic ck.0 suit is required to fill all equipment slots. (used Compact Nanohives instead of Basic Nanite Injectors because they are the equipment with the least CPU/PG) In this example the Logistic ck.0 suit has a mere 57 more EHP than the Assault ck.0 suit. At the given damage that is a bit more than one bullet worth of extra EHP. Does this fitting make the Logistic ck.0 suit "god-mode" over the Assault ck.0 suit? No. - Lets move on to a "brick-tank" Logistic ck.0 vs. Assault ck.0 build. Logistics ck.0 (brick-tank) LW: Duvolle Assault Rifle G: Locus Grenade H: Complex Shield Extender H: Complex Shield Extender H: Complex Shield Extender H: Complex Shield Extender H: Basic Shield Extender L: Complex Armor Plates L: Complex Armor Plates L: Complex Armor Plates L: Enhanced Armor Plates E: Empty E: Empty E: Empty Shield - 540; Armor - 679; Total EHP - 1219; Movement - 4.18; Sprint - 6.14 Damage - 43.01 Assault ck.0 (brick-tank) LW: Duvolle Assault Rifle S: Toxin' ICD-9 Submachine Gun G: Locus Grenade H: Complex Shield Extender H: Complex Shield Extender H: Complex Shield Extender H: Basic Shield Extender L: Complex Armor Plates L: Complex Armor Plates L: Enhanced Armor Plates Shield - 529; Armor - 568; Total EHP - 1097; Movement - 4.51; Sprint - 6.63 Damage - 43.01 In this example the Logistic ck.0 suit is "brick-tanking", as is the Assault ck.0 suit. The Logistic ck.0 suit has 122 more EHP than the Assault ck.0 suit. With the given damage this is an extra three bullets that the Logistic ck.0 suit can take over the Assault ck.0 suit. Yet again the Assault ck.0 suit is much faster and has a sidearm. Does this give the Logistic ck.0 suit a "god-mode" advantage? No. - I would love for you to continue to argue your point of the "god-mode" logistic suits, please include facts and statistics if you plan to have a valid argument.
SgtDoughnut Red Star Jr. EoN. 373	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:55:00 - [135] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Atiim wrote: Pwease don't take away my crutch I never at any point said logi's need to be at the back repping. I have used sidearms and they are far more powerful that people give them credit for, logi's would in no way be useless in combat. Ask Cat Merc what he thinks of 'not being able to do everything at once,' because I'm pretty sure he did the math and found Gal logi can brick tank plus damage stack, that's doing two things at once that the assault could only do one at a time. If sidearms are so strong then, how would this fix anything at all. If they are just as viable as lights this wouldn't fix anything.
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1171	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:55:00 - [136] - Quote This is not a good idea. Beyond the logic of making a suit that can only fir a sidearm because reasons... no, lets keep going there. The only reason Heavy weapons can only be used by Heavy's is because the other suits can't handle their weight and bulk. If Logistics are limited to sidearms, so should scouts because hey, they're even slighter than Logistics. The whole reason Logis do not have a sidearm slot is because they use all the room on their person for equipment. The Amarr designers decided to not convert the sidearm slot into an equipment slot, so it still has a sidearm but not a full equipment set. It's stupid to give the suit just a sidearm because reasons. Now, for gameplay reasons. Give the Logi sidearms only, and more than half the players that use them will demand respecs or leave the game, and rightly so. Such a major and sudden change is more than anything before seen in DUST, rivaled only by the removal of Marauders. We don't even have a full set of sidearms yet, so the poor weapons development of the game will have the weapons choices parred down even farther than you think. The slow Logi suit would make the Nova Knives useless, the Scrambler Pistol doesn't have the ammo capacity to survive beyond the first few firefights, and has far too short a range for a laser weapon in my opinion, the Flaylock is... the Flaylock. The SMG is the only reasonable choice, and even then as a PDW it isn't a reliable deterrent. As your only gun the Assault version would waste ammo too fast, the Breach wouldn't have the DPS to be anywhere near competitive with other suits, and the standard has both problems to lesser degrees. The new sidearm, the Magsec SMG, will probably fall into a similar rut, but with more armor bias. You are asking an entire suit class to use weapons inferior to the overused Assault Rifle in every way. As it is overused, chances of fighting it in any one match are near 100%. In a 1v1 fight, it makes the outcome almost assured. In a team fight of equal numbers, it makes you a weak link. IF we were to do this, then EVERY SUIT IN THE GAME needs to have their equipment slots removed. ALL of them. Otherwise, there would be no reason to use the Logi if you have at least two friends. Alex brings the hives, Bob has the Triage, and Clem brings the Injectors. Derp has all three, but gets slaughtered whenever his glowing yellow posterior breaks wind. ECM Equipment
Nirwanda Vaughns Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 179	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:58:00 - [137] - Quote despite being a 30m sp assault logi i'd love if we only had a sidearm. i think it would force us logis to start acting like logis again. i've been running some alts with basic-adv logis and equipment and i've really started to enjoy it again but as soon as i'm back on my main i start runnin n gunnin again. yeah people would moan but i've been expecting my gal logi to be nerfed for the past 8months its that OP. i have a couple other suits i can use my light weapons on and i've been wanting a reason to get my SMG up so it'd be perfect. would i still use my logi as much? probably not. what i would liek to see though is the introduction of the Type II/B-Type/VK.1 and maybe have them as the sidearm logis? give the sidearm logis 4 or 5 equipment slots and lower the cpu/pg and equipment slots of the type I/A-Type/VK.0's
Cosgar ParagonX 7878	Posted - 2013.11.17 23:02:00 - [138] - Quote SgtDoughnut wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Atiim wrote: Pwease don't take away my crutch I never at any point said logi's need to be at the back repping. I have used sidearms and they are far more powerful that people give them credit for, logi's would in no way be useless in combat. Ask Cat Merc what he thinks of 'not being able to do everything at once,' because I'm pretty sure he did the math and found Gal logi can brick tank plus damage stack, that's doing two things at once that the assault could only do one at a time. If sidearms are so strong then, how would this fix anything at all. If they are just as viable as lights this wouldn't fix anything. Holy shi- I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
ACE OF JOKERS AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 60	Posted - 2013.11.17 23:09:00 - [139] - Quote IMO the best way to balance logis is: 1-Give them THE EXACT same amount of high and low slots as Assaults.The extra CPU-PG is for equipment,not Assault mode. 2-Change their bonus to the Gallente logi bonus: -Logi default bonus: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on equipment Specific racial: -GAllente Logi: +1 Armor rep per level (so this one stays the same) -Cal Logi:15% Shield regen rate per level (For a maximum of +75% = 35 Shield per sec) -Amarr Logi: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on Active Scanners and Drop Uplinks per level -Minmatar Logi: 5% Hacking speed per level I might even post this with its own thread later....
Cosgar ParagonX 7878	Posted - 2013.11.17 23:20:00 - [140] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: IMO the best way to balance logis is: 1-Give them THE EXACT same amount of high and low slots as Assaults.The extra CPU-PG is for equipment,not Assault mode. 2-Change their bonus to the Gallente logi bonus: -Logi default bonus: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on equipment Specific racial: -GAllente Logi: +1 Armor rep per level (so this one stays the same) -Cal Logi:15% Shield regen rate per level (For a maximum of +75% = 35 Shield per sec) -Amarr Logi: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on Active Scanners and Drop Uplinks per level -Minmatar Logi: 5% Hacking speed per level I might even post this with its own thread later.... What about Minmatar logi? It has a far different slot layout from the assault. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1174	Posted - 2013.11.17 23:20:00 - [141] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: IMO the best way to balance logis is: 1-Give them THE EXACT same amount of high and low slots as Assaults.The extra CPU-PG is for equipment,not Assault mode. 2-Change their bonus to the Gallente logi bonus: -Logi default bonus: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on equipment Specific racial: -GAllente Logi: +1 Armor rep per level (so this one stays the same) -Cal Logi:15% Shield regen rate per level (For a maximum of +75% = 35 Shield per sec) -Amarr Logi: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on Active Scanners and Drop Uplinks per level -Minmatar Logi: 5% Hacking speed per level I might even post this with its own thread later.... Work on those bonuses then. The Logistics wide bonus is nice, but the new individual ones make some weak links. Hacking, for example, is almost useless in two of three game modes so Minmatar would be right out. Amarr have limited equips already, so giving them further reductions to the Scout-type equipment is nice but having lost their tank bonus to the Gallente it is far from good. The Cal and Gal Logi both have survivability bonuses, good in every situation. ECM Equipment
ACE OF JOKERS AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 60	Posted - 2013.11.17 23:34:00 - [142] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: IMO the best way to balance logis is: 1-Give them THE EXACT same amount of high and low slots as Assaults.The extra CPU-PG is for equipment,not Assault mode. 2-Change their bonus to the Gallente logi bonus: -Logi default bonus: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on equipment Specific racial: -GAllente Logi: +1 Armor rep per level (so this one stays the same) -Cal Logi:15% Shield regen rate per level (For a maximum of +75% = 35 Shield per sec) -Amarr Logi: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on Active Scanners and Drop Uplinks per level -Minmatar Logi: 5% Hacking speed per level I might even post this with its own thread later.... Work on those bonuses then. The Logistics wide bonus is nice, but the new individual ones make some weak links. Hacking, for example, is almost useless in two of three game modes so Minmatar would be right out. Amarr have limited equips already, so giving them further reductions to the Scout-type equipment is nice but having lost their tank bonus to the Gallente it is far from good. The Cal and Gal Logi both have survivability bonuses, good in every situation. im posting a thread wit hthis ideas,see what everybody thinks of it :3
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1105	Posted - 2013.11.17 23:48:00 - [143] - Quote ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: Atiim wrote: The logistics class if fine where it is. Sure it can preform the tasks of all roles, but it can't do so at the same time . Heh. Atiim wrote: And why does everyone assume that logistics should only be in the back repping and resupplying everyone. I don't think too many believe that. Me in my SMG certainly don't and we both got a second opinion from Mr.Scrambler Atiim wrote: Run with literally nothing but ONE sidearms for 2 weeks and see how well you perform. Pretty well actually. It's not like they shoot pebbles or something. Your not going to be running out of ammo either soooo... Seeing as how I only use a side arm anyhow, loosing the ability to use a light weapon wouldn't affect me at all. As I see it, that'd help with all the rage over logisaults too. Doubt many would use them for slaying if they couldn't have their precious Duvs or whatever the big thing now is. Well I'm glad that you are able to run sidearms all the time. I on the other hand, don't feel like being restricted to three weapons in the game. (I'm not putting Nova Knives on my logi) I normally use my logistics as a medic, but I don't want to have to do absolutely nothing but that. If you think that your Ishukone SMG can survive a guy with a primary (who knows what their doing), then you need to stop the healing. Apparently it's hurting you to the point of brain damage. I am currently skilled in every light weapon in the game, and they are all trained to at least level 3. With the exception being Plasma Cannons. If they restrict the logistics to a sidearm slot then I will not run logistics ever again. I refuse to waste nearly 75% of my lifetime SP just because someone thought that it would be a good idea. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not worried about this because we all know it would never happen; but still. Also on another note, what makes you think I'm not going to run out of ammo? I fit my logi suits with injectors and repair tools no matter what so that only leaves me with 1 additional slot (can't afford PRO gear). Uplinks? Remote Explosives? Active Scanners? I hope you aren't assuming that I'll always run nanohives. Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
Brynjar Reko Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 30	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:00:00 - [144] - Quote RKKR wrote: Brynjar Reko wrote: As a scout, I am used to running sidearm only sometimes as a way to get more out of my fit and as I am never useful at range anyway, the smg is always a useful weapon to me. I don't know about removing the speed nerf but I'm sure playtesting would show whether they need it, which they might with only sidearms. Giving Amarr a light weapon is a mistake though I think, perhaps an additional secondary or grenade but giving them and only them a light weapon makes the other change irrelevant, anyone that wanted to assault logi would hide in an Amarr suit and complain until it was put back to the old way. 'A speed nerf' and the word logistics, don't go hand in hand. The times I couldn't jump over a stupid elevation,.... and a teammate got killed because I couldn't reach him fast enough... Luckily we have more slots to put stuff into like cardiac regs, but then everyone complains that we use those extra slots for assault-reasons, those complainers never think about the other side do they? I was trying to refer to their current low speed as someone suggested bringing them up to assault speed but that is my fault for wording it poorly. I wasn't proposing further nerfs to their speed, sorry for the confusion
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz 495	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:08:00 - [145] - Quote A stupid idea made up by butthurt assaults. The problem is the AR being good at everything while losing nothing and dropping everything in less than a second.. Outside of that, if you can't exploit the weakness of a Logi using a MD, Laser, Sniper Rifles, Shotguns, or Swarms without a sidearm, then I don't know what to tell you.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1105	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:15:00 - [146] - Quote @Atiim Nova Knife Logi is a whole lot of fun, I'm not 100% sure that I'd want to run it exclusively, though it is great for a change of pace. Scrambler Pistol/SMG Logi otoh, are staples for me. Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 349	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:24:00 - [147] - Quote My position: This is a horrible idea. My logic: It's overly restrictive and NOT fun. I win. Seriously. The logi suit needs a specific loadout requirement similar to the current loadout requirement for all classes, which is that a weapon be on every valid loadout. In other words, in similar fashion, the logi suit must utilize all of the equipment slots in order for it to be a valid, deployable loadout. Yes, I can already hear you saying "but faux logis will easily get around this by equipping 3 compact hives at 10 CPU and 2 PG a piece." Start there. Observe. Reevaluate. If that doesn't do the trick, then consider a minimum CPU total for equipment on proto suits to something like 100 CPU. Any proto logi worth his salt has at least that much equipment on his suit. Reduced figures could be set for advanced and standard logi suits. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. This "problem" deserves a smart solution, not a horrible uber nerf to every logis offensive capabilities.
Shadow Archeus OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 146	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:25:00 - [148] - Quote I support restricting logos to a sidearm.......but here's an alternative rather lengthy but would add a little more diversity Make a medium weapon class......this would include mass drivers.....sniper rifles......swarm launchers......scrambler rifles....and the new rifles All suits can use medium weapons but logistics suits Future suits could limit weapons in this manner I.e. a scout suit that can't use medium weapons but in turn is faster and more durable....or a heavy that is the same(faster than a commando but with 1000hp but can only use light weapons There's a lot that it could open up
Cosgar ParagonX 7881	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:29:00 - [149] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: My position: This is a horrible idea. My logic: It's overly restrictive and NOT fun. I win. Seriously. The logi suit needs a specific loadout requirement similar to the current loadout requirement for all classes, which is that a weapon be on every valid loadout. In other words, in similar fashion, the logi suit must utilize all of the equipment slots in order for it to be a valid, deployable loadout. Yes, I can already hear you saying "but faux logis will easily get around this by equipping 3 compact hives at 10 CPU and 2 PG a piece." Start there. Observe. Reevaluate. If that doesn't do the trick, then consider a minimum CPU total for equipment on proto suits to something like 100 CPU. Any proto logi worth his salt has at least that much equipment on his suit. Reduced figures could be set for advanced and standard logi suits. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. This "problem" deserves a smart solution, not a horrible uber nerf to every logis offensive capabilities. You can't penalize one class without penalizing them all. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 1399	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:29:00 - [150] - Quote Meh, I can only viably use an ar, auto scr or md and perhaps a smg (in the right situations), I'd call that limited enough. The Caldari assault suit is awesome, I know, I have one, best MD and AV suit IMO.. The Amar assault is probably currently the best suit for run and gun combat in the game. The Galente, don't rememer the details but I've seen what can be done with it... The Minmatar should probably get a buff... Logis should get fitting bonuses to equipments and assault should get fitting bonuses to all weaponry. This should be done through changeing the role bonuses Adjust CPU/PG to compencate AKA make it so that logis can't have Proto main and nade AND 2 dmg mods AND proto rep hive, scanner, needle, AND 820 hp The racical bonuses should be looked at too. The cal logi has +2% to shield regulator modules, really? http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/KingBabar/media/BannerKingbabarcopy.png.html

Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1106	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:36:00 - [151] - Quote Shadow Archeus wrote: I support restricting logos to a sidearm.......but here's an alternative rather lengthy but would add a little more diversity Make a medium weapon class......this would include mass drivers.....sniper rifles......swarm launchers......scrambler rifles....and the new rifles All suits can use medium weapons but logistics suits Future suits could limit weapons in this manner I.e. a scout suit that can't use medium weapons but in turn is faster and more durable....or a heavy that is the same(faster than a commando but with 1000hp but can only use light weapons There's a lot that it could open up I proposed something similar awhile back. The difference being that I proposed a "Logi" Weapon slot which would fit between Light and Sidearm. The "Logi Weapon" class would include Laser Rifle, Mass Driver, Plasma Cannon, Shotgun, Sniper Rifle and Swarm Launcher. It was shouted down by the Assport Logis. Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1106	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:36:00 - [152] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: If that doesn't do the trick, then consider a minimum CPU total for equipment on proto suits to something like 100 CPU. Any proto logi worth his salt has at least that much equipment on his suit. Reduced figures could be set for advanced and standard logi suits. I agree with you, but what about Gallente Logistics? They could probably squeeze less CPU/PG than that because of the reduction they have to equipment. Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1107	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:43:00 - [153] - Quote If I'm forced to use a sidearm, then why should other suits be able to carry equipment? If logistics can only use sidearms because of multiple equipment, then it would only be fair to allow 4 equipment across all tiers and prevent every other suit in the game from using equipment. Including Scouts. Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 351	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:43:00 - [154] - Quote Atiim wrote: SirManBoy wrote: If that doesn't do the trick, then consider a minimum CPU total for equipment on proto suits to something like 100 CPU. Any proto logi worth his salt has at least that much equipment on his suit. Reduced figures could be set for advanced and standard logi suits. I agree with you, but what about Gallente Logistics? They could probably squeeze less CPU/PG than that because of the reduction they have to equipment. That racial bonus actually encourages equipment use, which is a good thing. However, I would make the minimum CPU total requirement a pre-bonus figure. In other words, you have to have a minimum of 100 CPU prior to your bonus kicking in. The bonus (at max) makes that total 75 CPU in the end.
ACE OF JOKERS AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 62	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:46:00 - [155] - Quote Well HERE IT IS , a balancing idea im pretty sure ALL Logis will agree on, without the need to loose the right to use a Light weapon. please read and comment. BTW, sidearm only logis is not a very good idea thou... :3
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 351	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:56:00 - [156] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Well HERE IT IS , a balancing idea im pretty sure ALL Logis will agree on, without the need to loose the right to use a Light weapon. please read and comment. BTW, sidearm only logis is not a very good idea thou... :3 I'm as support-oriented as logis come and I absolutely don't agree on the loss of a slot. I would never get behind any proposal of that sort. NEVER!
pyramidhead 420 Carbon 7 CRONOS. 143	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:00:00 - [157] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Let me preface this thread by saying I want to discuss this idea, how it would affect the logi class, how it would be implemented, etc. If you disagree with the argument, I would urge you to explain why, because if you simply write, "lol this is a bad idea," then I will simply read it as, "pwease don't take away my crutch!" Also, I'd like to throw out some stipulations before I make my own argument. First, Amarr logi's, in this situation, would receive only a single light weapon. Second, I would not expect CCP to implement this idea until there have been AT LEAST three more sidearms released for us to use, so that not every logi is running a Winmatar SMG. Alright, so let me start with the implications. What would happen if every logi had to run a sidearm at this exact moment from now on? Well, I imagine that most logissaults would come to the forums to cry, and to be fair to them, it is a very drastic change, so a respec might be justified in this situation. (when I say respec, I mean specifically SP taken out of logi dropsuit command skills, and nothing else.) All pure logistics players, on the other hand, would also likely come to the forums to complain that their light weapon skills are now useless to them, so a respec specifically in the light weapons tree would also be justified. The logistics class as a whole would become more vulnerable, but not actually useless, there are people that run dual sidearms despite having a light weapon slot because they WANT to, I imagine logi's will still be able to defend themselves in CQC. Outside of CQC, of course, they would be shooting practice, so logi's that currently run lone-wolf mode(myself included) would be encouraged to stick close to team-mates to keep them safe over long distance combat. Overall, it means that logi's can still combat, but not as effectively as assault players. As for how it would be implemented, I would expect a few buffs to help the logi out with this extreme change. First, the maximum amount of equipment carried should be increased to five, so that Amarr/Caldari would get four slots at the proto tier, and Minmatar/Gallente would get five at proto. Obviously, this is strengthening the logistics role. Second, logi speed should be buffed to be exactly at level with assault, currently logi speed is about 5% below assault. This would allow logi's to keep pace with their assault brethren, so that they don't get left in the dust trying to keep up with a group. Lastly, stamina and stamina regeneration would be buffed to an area somewhere between assaults and scouts. Logistics suits will need to be mobile to cope with the new change, and this will help tremendously. Overall, it makes the logistics class more logisctic-y. So let's talk about the other classes and how they might be affected by this difference. Assault suits would become more popular, because a large majority of assault players are currently residing in god-mode logistics suits. Heavy suits would come out of hiding if they thought there was a high chance that they would find a logi bro in most games, and scouts would be pretty much the same. I think removal of the assault suit's equipment slots would be appropriate, to make logistics player more needed on the battlefield, and it would be wise to increase the scout's equipment max to two so that nanohives don't become too rare. Overall, I'd say the other classes would be happy not getting outperformed in every way by the logi. My TL;DR: Yes, I am advocating that the logistics class should get only a sidearm. If you didn't read the thread and just scrolled down here to get a quick version, then suck it up and read the rest of my post. Constructive criticism is welcomed if you actually have a reasonable argument, like I said before, don't give me a "lolno," because it makes you look like a crutch-using tool. wow 9 whole likes, with 8 pages of responses. i say that speaks for it self
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 165	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:12:00 - [158] - Quote This is a really well thought out post OP. As to reducing the damage of the light weapons this is a bad idea as would cripple the logis ability to fight in all ranges and would make long range the only way to play logi. Side arms tend to be very effective in the short range but lacking in long, and this would mean that a logi is force to run with a group but would not be a weight on a mobile group. I was thinking of reducing clip size or ammo cap size but this is much better.
Cosgar ParagonX 7881	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:13:00 - [159] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Well HERE IT IS , a balancing idea im pretty sure ALL Logis will agree on, without the need to loose the right to use a Light weapon. please read and comment. BTW, sidearm only logis is not a very good idea thou... :3 So your idea is to take a class that is designed on the idea of trading base stats and offensive capabilities for equipment and customization instead of completely ignoring the core issues that make anything other than shield extenders and armor plates completely useless? Ask yourself a serous question, would you put 5 levels into any of those 4 logistics suits? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 165	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:15:00 - [160] - Quote another thing that might be good in conjunction with this idea is to nerf pg/CPU to just above assault levels and then give a 90-99% role bonus to equipment fitting costs.

hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 165	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:17:00 - [161] - Quote Atiim wrote: The logistics class if fine where it is. Sure it can preform the tasks of all roles, but it can't do so at the same time . And why does everyone assume that logistics should only be in the back repping and resupplying everyone. Run with literally nothing but ONE sidearms for 2 weeks and see how well you perform. This argument is idiotic and not worth explaining in vast amounts of detail I have! Side arms are super powerful in CQC, although they do need to be filled out a little more.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 165	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:20:00 - [162] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? nope you are comparing apples to arseholes
ACE OF JOKERS AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 66	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:22:00 - [163] - Quote Cosgar wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Well HERE IT IS , a balancing idea im pretty sure ALL Logis will agree on, without the need to loose the right to use a Light weapon. please read and comment. BTW, sidearm only logis is not a very good idea thou... :3 So your idea is to take a class that is designed on the idea of trading base stats and offensive capabilities for equipment and customization instead of completely ignoring the core issues that make anything other than shield extenders and armor plates completely useless? Ask yourself a serous question, would you put 5 levels into any of those 4 logistics suits? ''So your idea is to take a class that is designed on the idea of trading base stats and offensive capabilities for equipment and customization instead '' THis phrase is complete bull: GÖª Trading base stats? Ok i would take that as a good reasoning,but at the moment the differences in ''base stats' are minimal. take away 40 total EHP, and 1 SPRT speed from all logis ad THEN say you are trading base stats. GÖªOffensive capabilities? While its true 3 out of 4 logis LAC sidearm, the fat the can equip 3-4 compelx damage mods and STILL be able to have over 700 HP is proof they are not lacking in offensive capabilities as many ''dont nerf my cruch''-logis claim. So overall. Base stats differences are minimal, Logis have more offensive capabilities, DPS wise. AND get more Equipment and Customization. '' Ask yourself a serous question, would you put 5 levels into any of those 4 logistics suits?'' Well yeah. I would.I made that post with this on Mind actually. Whats the big deal? You are trading 1 slot for better equipment and Better Logi bonuses. The fact people are disgusted with the idea proves most logis just want slots to assault/tank,and make me wonder if we really DO deserve a visit from the good old Nerf hammer. Punishment for being close minded selfish basterds....
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 165	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:24:00 - [164] - Quote Jackof All-Trades wrote: I'll miss my plasma cannon on my logi suit you sir are a bad ass!!!! hmmmmm my support wanes
Cosgar ParagonX 7882	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:24:00 - [165] - Quote hgghyujh wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? nope you are comparing apples to arseholes This whole logi vs assault thing started over the idea that logis can remove their equipment and get extra tank to be a better assault. If that's the case, why hasn't anyone complained about heavies with ARs. The get the extra tank and a sidearm. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1107	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:28:00 - [166] - Quote Cosgar wrote: hgghyujh wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? nope you are comparing apples to arseholes This whole logi vs assault thing started over the idea that logis can remove their equipment and get extra tank to be a better assault. If that's the case, why hasn't anyone complained about heavies with ARs. The get the extra tank and a sidearm. I complained about that long ago, surprise, surprise, I was shouted down in the name of almighty "customization" Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 1460	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:28:00 - [167] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: First off, I do not Logi. Second, I think it would be a bad idea to take away the Logi self defense ablity. It's not the Logi being able to use a light weapon, it's the Logis that choose to stack DMG mods and maybe a few armour plates that are the problem(nyan san or whatever they are called...cough) Not make DMG mods have a really large stacking penalty and or make it so they draw even more CPU/PG. The guys that are skipping equipment and throwing only dmg mods on proto weapons are going to get real Logis nerfed(as they already did once) I can see making a type-2 suit and giving it two sidearm slots but I can not see taking away light weapons. I really feel this well be the best way to handle the "slayer Logi" without punishing actual logis.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 165	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:28:00 - [168] - Quote and a significant movement penalty lets not forget that
Kasira Vorrikesh Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:29:00 - [169] - Quote I've often thought to myself (without expressing it until now) that Logistics having only a sidearm would be fair, so I agree here. Also I agree on increasing their speed and stamina and equipment slots; all sounds like a fair trade-off, and more importantly, sounds much more like the Logistics class should be. The loss of a light weapon (I don't agree with Amarr being allowed to keep one; maybe give them two Sidearm slots instead of one) and slight loss of base HP in exchange for more equipment would also seem to make sense from an in-game design standpoint (though between the Commando and Scout, I wonder if in-game logic is that sound to begin with...). Using EVE for analogy: as far as I understand it, EVE logistics ships are not (possibly never) used as assault ships; it's almost impossible to use them more successfully than a ship intended for pure combat, so why should Dust's support class be any different?
Cosgar ParagonX 7884	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:35:00 - [170] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Well HERE IT IS , a balancing idea im pretty sure ALL Logis will agree on, without the need to loose the right to use a Light weapon. please read and comment. BTW, sidearm only logis is not a very good idea thou... :3 So your idea is to take a class that is designed on the idea of trading base stats and offensive capabilities for equipment and customization instead of completely ignoring the core issues that make anything other than shield extenders and armor plates completely useless? Ask yourself a serous question, would you put 5 levels into any of those 4 logistics suits? ''So your idea is to take a class that is designed on the idea of trading base stats and offensive capabilities for equipment and customization instead '' THis phrase is complete bull: GÖª Trading base stats? Ok i would take that as a good reasoning,but at the moment the differences in ''base stats' are minimal. take away 40 total EHP, and 1 SPRT speed from all logis ad THEN say you are trading base stats. GÖªOffensive capabilities? While its true 3 out of 4 logis LAC sidearm, the fat the can equip 3-4 compelx damage mods and STILL be able to have over 700 HP is proof they are not lacking in offensive capabilities as many ''dont nerf my cruch''-logis claim. So overall. Base stats differences are minimal, Logis have more offensive capabilities, DPS wise. AND get more Equipment and Customization. '' Ask yourself a serous question, would you put 5 levels into any of those 4 logistics suits?'' Well yeah. I would.I made that post with this on Mind actually. Whats the big deal? You are trading 1 slot for better equipment and Better Logi bonuses. The fact people are disgusted with the idea proves most logis just want slots to assault/tank,and make me wonder if we really DO deserve a visit from the good old Nerf hammer. Punishment for being close minded selfish basterds.... There's no facts, just a bunch of people sitting back and playing armchair developer, looking at spread sheets and pretending they know everything. With your proposed changes, nobody would play logistics, including the ones that play it to support their team. It completely destroys any survivability the suit needs to help their team on the front lines. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Cosgar ParagonX 7884	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:36:00 - [171] - Quote Kasira Vorrikesh wrote: I've often thought to myself (without expressing it until now) that Logistics having only a sidearm would be fair, so I agree here. Also I agree on increasing their speed and stamina and equipment slots; all sounds like a fair trade-off, and more importantly, sounds much more like the Logistics class should be. The loss of a light weapon (I don't agree with Amarr being allowed to keep one; maybe give them two Sidearm slots instead of one) and slight loss of base HP in exchange for more equipment would also seem to make sense from an in-game design standpoint (though between the Commando and Scout, I wonder if in-game logic is that sound to begin with...). Using EVE for analogy: as far as I understand it, EVE logistics ships are not (possibly never) used as assault ships; it's almost impossible to use them more successfully than a ship intended for pure combat, so why should Dust's support class be any different? In EVE, Caldari are about as slow as Amarr, if not slower. See if any Caldari assault want to waddle around at the speed of a heavy. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 165	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:46:00 - [172] - Quote Cosgar wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Well HERE IT IS , a balancing idea im pretty sure ALL Logis will agree on, without the need to loose the right to use a Light weapon. please read and comment. BTW, sidearm only logis is not a very good idea thou... :3 So your idea is to take a class that is designed on the idea of trading base stats and offensive capabilities for equipment and customization instead of completely ignoring the core issues that make anything other than shield extenders and armor plates completely useless? Ask yourself a serous question, would you put 5 levels into any of those 4 logistics suits? ''So your idea is to take a class that is designed on the idea of trading base stats and offensive capabilities for equipment and customization instead '' THis phrase is complete bull: GÖª Trading base stats? Ok i would take that as a good reasoning,but at the moment the differences in ''base stats' are minimal. take away 40 total EHP, and 1 SPRT speed from all logis ad THEN say you are trading base stats. GÖªOffensive capabilities? While its true 3 out of 4 logis LAC sidearm, the fat the can equip 3-4 compelx damage mods and STILL be able to have over 700 HP is proof they are not lacking in offensive capabilities as many ''dont nerf my cruch''-logis claim. So overall. Base stats differences are minimal, Logis have more offensive capabilities, DPS wise. AND get more Equipment and Customization. '' Ask yourself a serous question, would you put 5 levels into any of those 4 logistics suits?'' Well yeah. I would.I made that post with this on Mind actually. Whats the big deal? You are trading 1 slot for better equipment and Better Logi bonuses. The fact people are disgusted with the idea proves most logis just want slots to assault/tank,and make me wonder if we really DO deserve a visit from the good old Nerf hammer. Punishment for being close minded selfish basterds.... There's no facts, just a bunch of people sitting back and playing armchair developer, looking at spread sheets and pretending they know everything. With your proposed changes, nobody would play logistics, including the ones that play it to support their team. It completely destroys any survivability the suit needs to help their team on the front lines. Have you ever used a sidearm as a primary??? cause let me tell you they are powerful as ****, your only limitation is range, which is a non issue if you are moving with a group as support, your group takes a lot of heat and you can still be as deadly as the guy next to you, you need to kill some one to pick a team mate up you can still do that.
Kasira Vorrikesh Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:48:00 - [173] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Kasira Vorrikesh wrote: I've often thought to myself (without expressing it until now) that Logistics having only a sidearm would be fair, so I agree here. Also I agree on increasing their speed and stamina and equipment slots; all sounds like a fair trade-off, and more importantly, sounds much more like the Logistics class should be. The loss of a light weapon (I don't agree with Amarr being allowed to keep one; maybe give them two Sidearm slots instead of one) and slight loss of base HP in exchange for more equipment would also seem to make sense from an in-game design standpoint (though between the Commando and Scout, I wonder if in-game logic is that sound to begin with...). Using EVE for analogy: as far as I understand it, EVE logistics ships are not (possibly never) used as assault ships; it's almost impossible to use them more successfully than a ship intended for pure combat, so why should Dust's support class be any different? In EVE, Caldari are about as slow as Amarr, if not slower. See if any Caldari assault want to waddle around at the speed of a heavy. You're using a racial trait instead of a class trait as a counter argument. Frankly it doesn't make sense in any game to have a class role titled "Logistics" being able to assault, snipe, hack, whatever, better than assaults and scouts and "commandos". The problem is that the Logistics class should never have had so much fitting freedom to begin with; there should be more variety in dropsuit roles so that Logistics suits would never be expected to do anything else but support. I suspect CCP allowed Logi to reach this point intentionally, so one suit could do many things in order to mask the lack of variety; but if that's the case, the name should be changed. Maybe to something like "Armor-stackable-unkillable-once-proto-jack-of-all-trades-master-of-them-all-too" instead. "Logistics" just doesn't fit the bill anymore.
ACE OF JOKERS AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 68	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:52:00 - [174] - Quote Cosgar wrote: There's no facts, just a bunch of people sitting back and playing armchair developer, looking at spread sheets and pretending they know everything. With your proposed changes, nobody would play logistics, including the ones that play it to support their team. It completely destroys any survivability the suit needs to help their team on the front lines. You want facts? The Logi suit is OP. It needs a NERF,not even a gentle rebalance like the one i proposed. you want Facts? After watching most videos regarding the Squad tournament; 90% Of the players were using Pro Logi suits. The Highest amount of proto suits is, guess what? yeah LOGI suits. and believe me, ITS NOT BECAUSE ALL OF THEM ARE SUPPORT. LOL no, Most of them are using them as modded Scouts, Or Assaults with more HP and the capacity to spam uplings and carry A.Scanners at the same time. The suit is broken and its sad that people hold on to their ''crutch'' so tightly...
Cosgar ParagonX 7885	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:56:00 - [175] - Quote hgghyujh wrote: Have you ever used a sidearm as a primary??? cause let me tell you they are powerful as **, your only limitation is range, which is a non issue if you are moving with a group as support, your group takes a lot of heat and you can still be as deadly as the guy next to you, you need to kill some one to pick a team mate up you can still do that. SgtDoughnut wrote:** If sidearms are so strong then, how would this fix anything at all. If they are just as viable as lights this wouldn't fix anything. And so I'm not just empty quoting, I use both SMG and ScP when I need to for higher tier equipment options. If this game was nothing but enclosed CoD style maps, it might make sense, but look at all the open fields and how well the mass driver works as a support weapon. This is still a FPS and you still got to kill the guy shooting at you, even if it's to raise the assault that wants you nerfed. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7888	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:00:00 - [176] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: There's no facts, just a bunch of people sitting back and playing armchair developer, looking at spread sheets and pretending they know everything. With your proposed changes, nobody would play logistics, including the ones that play it to support their team. It completely destroys any survivability the suit needs to help their team on the front lines. You want facts? The Logi suit is OP. It needs a NERF,not even a gentle rebalance like the one i proposed. you want Facts? After watching most videos regarding the Squad tournament; 90% Of the players were using Pro Logi suits. The Highest amount of proto suits is, guess what? yeah LOGI suits. and believe me, ITS NOT BECAUSE ALL OF THEM ARE SUPPORT. LOL no, Most of them are using them as modded Scouts, Or Assaults with more HP and the capacity to spam uplings and carry A.Scanners at the same time. The suit is broken and its sad that people hold on to their ''crutch'' so tightly... Fact, you're simply using bold text, ad hominem, and anecdotal observations to sell an argument. You're not the first one to do this because they disagree with me but others did a better job. You want to talk facts, show me some hard supported data. If you want to use power text and imaginary numbers, you're wasting my time. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 610	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:04:00 - [177] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: There's no facts, just a bunch of people sitting back and playing armchair developer, looking at spread sheets and pretending they know everything. With your proposed changes, nobody would play logistics, including the ones that play it to support their team. It completely destroys any survivability the suit needs to help their team on the front lines. You want facts? The Logi suit is OP. It needs a NERF,not even a gentle rebalance like the one i proposed. you want Facts? After watching most videos regarding the Squad tournament; 90% Of the players were using Pro Logi suits. The Highest amount of proto suits is, guess what? yeah LOGI suits. and believe me, ITS NOT BECAUSE ALL OF THEM ARE SUPPORT. LOL no, Most of them are using them as modded Scouts, Or Assaults with more HP and the capacity to spam uplings and carry A.Scanners at the same time. The suit is broken and its sad that people hold on to their ''crutch'' so tightly... You call it a crutch. Maybe it is for those that wish to abuse the class. But most of the hubbub out there refers to the so-called "Assault' Logi. But instead of addressing the real issue, it is 'cut off the head of all Logis' to cure the cancer. That is beyond foolish. The key to pushing Logistics back to where it was intended is not about nerfing the suit, it is about enhancing Assault to a place that makes it the preferred platform for frontline combat. Give it the bonuses it deserves to fight the good fight and make modules like Damages Mods, less effective to keep them the premiere warfighter. Weak Logi does not equal balance or even strong Assault. It just equals weak support for all classes. And every team is only as strong as the weakest link. #ThinkAboutIt
Cosgar ParagonX 7888	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:08:00 - [178] - Quote RydogV wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: There's no facts, just a bunch of people sitting back and playing armchair developer, looking at spread sheets and pretending they know everything. With your proposed changes, nobody would play logistics, including the ones that play it to support their team. It completely destroys any survivability the suit needs to help their team on the front lines. You want facts? The Logi suit is OP. It needs a NERF,not even a gentle rebalance like the one i proposed. you want Facts? After watching most videos regarding the Squad tournament; 90% Of the players were using Pro Logi suits. The Highest amount of proto suits is, guess what? yeah LOGI suits. and believe me, ITS NOT BECAUSE ALL OF THEM ARE SUPPORT. LOL no, Most of them are using them as modded Scouts, Or Assaults with more HP and the capacity to spam uplings and carry A.Scanners at the same time. The suit is broken and its sad that people hold on to their ''crutch'' so tightly... You call it a crutch. Maybe it is for those that wish to abuse the class. But most of the hubbub out there refers to the so-called "Assault' Logi. But instead of addressing the real issue, it is 'cut off the head of all Logis' to cure the cancer. That is beyond foolish. The key to pushing Logistics back to where it was intended is not about nerfing the suit, it is about enhancing Assault to a place that makes it the preferred platform for frontline combat. Give it the bonuses it deserves to fight the good fight and make modules like Damages Mods, less effective to keep them the premiere warfighter. Weak Logi does not equal balance or even strong Assault. It just equals weak support for all classes. And every team is only as strong as the weakest link. #ThinkAboutIt So make assaults better at killing than logistics could even think of being? Gee, why hasn't anyone else thought of that yet? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Robocop Junior The Surrogates Of War 358	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:14:00 - [179] - Quote Orrrrrrrrr we could just remove assaults entirely. Dumb idea? So are yours.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 165	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:20:00 - [180] - Quote RydogV wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: There's no facts, just a bunch of people sitting back and playing armchair developer, looking at spread sheets and pretending they know everything. With your proposed changes, nobody would play logistics, including the ones that play it to support their team. It completely destroys any survivability the suit needs to help their team on the front lines. You want facts? The Logi suit is OP. It needs a NERF,not even a gentle rebalance like the one i proposed. you want Facts? After watching most videos regarding the Squad tournament; 90% Of the players were using Pro Logi suits. The Highest amount of proto suits is, guess what? yeah LOGI suits. and believe me, ITS NOT BECAUSE ALL OF THEM ARE SUPPORT. LOL no, Most of them are using them as modded Scouts, Or Assaults with more HP and the capacity to spam uplings and carry A.Scanners at the same time. The suit is broken and its sad that people hold on to their ''crutch'' so tightly... You call it a crutch. Maybe it is for those that wish to abuse the class. But most of the hubbub out there refers to the so-called "Assault' Logi. But instead of addressing the real issue, it is 'cut off the head of all Logis' to cure the cancer. That is beyond foolish. The key to pushing Logistics back to where it was intended is not about nerfing the suit, it is about enhancing Assault to a place that makes it the preferred platform for frontline combat. Give it the bonuses it deserves to fight the good fight and make modules like Damages Mods, less effective to keep them the premiere warfighter. Weak Logi does not equal balance or even strong Assault. It just equals weak support for all classes. And every team is only as strong as the weakest link. #ThinkAboutIt assualt were that then logi's got some major rework done on them and...........you can keep buffing the **** out of every thing, or you can rebalanced them, the assualt doesn't need a buff, the logi needs to not be the most capable at everything.

Cosgar ParagonX 7888	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:25:00 - [181] - Quote hgghyujh wrote: assualt were that then logi's got some major rework done on them and...........you can keep buffing the **** out of every thing, or you can rebalanced them, the assualt doesn't need a buff, the logi needs to not be the most capable at everything. You can't just cry power creep when a class isn't worth the SP investment. For the same prerequisites the assault only gets a shield bonus and racial bonus on a medium suit compared to logistics that get a completely different slot layout compared to a medium suit. Assaults aren't worth the SP unless you want to save some money when you die. Every class suit should be worth the SP you put into it and should have bonuses worth skilling into. Hell, just making assaults into the basic medium would be a huge improvement. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 352	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:36:00 - [182] - Quote Another idea: Requiring a greater SP investment to enjoy the benefits of the logi class. [Insert race] logi suits level 1 Prerequisites: [Insert race] medium suit level 3 Uplinks level 1 Nanocircuitry level 1 Repair tool level 1 And for advanced... [Insert race] logi suits level 3 Prerequisites: [Insert race] medium suit level 4 Uplinks level 3 Nanocircuitry level 3 Repair tool level 3 And for proto... [Insert race] logi suits level 5 Prerequisites: [Insert race] medium suit level 5 Uplinks level 5 Nanocircuitry level 5 Repair tool level 5 Would this shut you logi haters up?
ACE OF JOKERS AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 69	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:37:00 - [183] - Quote RydogV wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: There's no facts, just a bunch of people sitting back and playing armchair developer, looking at spread sheets and pretending they know everything. With your proposed changes, nobody would play logistics, including the ones that play it to support their team. It completely destroys any survivability the suit needs to help their team on the front lines. You want facts? The Logi suit is OP. It needs a NERF,not even a gentle rebalance like the one i proposed. you want Facts? After watching most videos regarding the Squad tournament; 90% Of the players were using Pro Logi suits. The Highest amount of proto suits is, guess what? yeah LOGI suits. and believe me, ITS NOT BECAUSE ALL OF THEM ARE SUPPORT. LOL no, Most of them are using them as modded Scouts, Or Assaults with more HP and the capacity to spam uplings and carry A.Scanners at the same time. The suit is broken and its sad that people hold on to their ''crutch'' so tightly... You call it a crutch. Maybe it is for those that wish to abuse the class. But most of the hubbub out there refers to the so-called "Assault' Logi. But instead of addressing the real issue, it is 'cut off the head of all Logis' to cure the cancer. That is beyond foolish. The key to pushing Logistics back to where it was intended is not about nerfing the suit, it is about enhancing Assault to a place that makes it the preferred platform for frontline combat. Give it the bonuses it deserves to fight the good fight and make modules like Damages Mods, less effective to keep them the premiere warfighter. Weak Logi does not equal balance or even strong Assault. It just equals weak support for all classes. And every team is only as strong as the weakest link. #ThinkAboutIt I abuse the logi as an ASsault ver.2 If you read MY THREAD you'll see im not ''cutting'' off any suit. Its a sensible way to balance them while still regaining most of their qualities.
ACE OF JOKERS AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 69	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:39:00 - [184] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Fact, you're simply using bold text, ad hominem, and anecdotal observations to sell an argument. You're not the first one to do this because they disagree with me but others did a better job. You want to talk facts, show me some hard supported data. If you want to use power text and imaginary numbers, you're wasting my time. You are simply using big words to sound smart. But in the end,you aren't providing ANY facts yourself on why the suits are ''balanced'' LOL
Kasira Vorrikesh Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:40:00 - [185] - Quote RydogV wrote: Weak Logi does not equal balance or even strong Assault. It just equals weak support for all classes. And every team is only as strong as the weakest link. #ThinkAboutIt I fail to see how allowing Logis to have sidearms and ~800+ HP would weaken support for all classes. They would retain their tank ability, but lose their assault ability, which is how they should have been designed from the beginning. The whole problem with the perception of Logis being imbalanced, is that they have massive tanking potential alongside assault potential; they only need the former, not both. Or else completely rename the damn class so no one would have rational expectations based upon the support role their name implies.
Cosgar ParagonX 7889	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:42:00 - [186] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: I abuse the logi as an ASsault ver.2 If you read MY THREAD you'll see im not ''cutting'' off any suit. Its a sensible way to balance them while still regaining most of their qualities. No matter how much you shamelessly promote that topic, it's still a heavy handed nerf to people that do play logistics to support their team just because one suit is overpowered due to broken core mechanics. Remember when shields > armor and the CaLogi was OP? Now it's armor > shields and the GaLogi is the OP one. It's not the slots, it's imbalanced game mechanics. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 610	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:48:00 - [187] - Quote Kasira Vorrikesh wrote: RydogV wrote: Weak Logi does not equal balance or even strong Assault. It just equals weak support for all classes. And every team is only as strong as the weakest link. #ThinkAboutIt I fail to see how allowing Logis to have sidearms and ~800+ HP would weaken support for all classes. They would retain their tank ability, but lose their assault ability, which is how they should have been designed from the beginning. The whole problem with the perception of Logis being imbalanced, is that they have massive tanking potential alongside assault potential; they only need the former, not both. Or else completely rename the damn class so no one would have rational expectations based upon the support role their name implies. I have 800+ HP now....and an Assault Rifle....and 23m Skill Points....and I FRAKING DIE ALL THE TIME. Would you like to know why? Because I generally have a piece of equipment in my hand more than a weapon. But when I do have a weapon I want it to be effective, because killing others who are trying to kill me or my teammates is still SUPPORTING my team. Keep trying to hock this 'Snake Oil' of an idea any way you want. It's crap and CCP knows it. Good luck.
ACE OF JOKERS AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 70	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:52:00 - [188] - Quote Cosgar wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: I abuse the logi as an ASsault ver.2 If you read MY THREAD you'll see im not ''cutting'' off any suit. Its a sensible way to balance them while still regaining most of their qualities. No matter how much you shamelessly promote that topic, it's still a heavy handed nerf to people that do play logistics to support their team just because one suit is overpowered due to broken core mechanics. Remember when shields > armor and the CaLogi was OP? Now it's armor > shields and the GaLogi is the OP one. It's not the slots, it's imbalanced game mechanics. Even if i agree with the imbalanced game mechanics part,i dont really think its a Heavy handed nerf. While i AM removing a slot from every suit.i am giving back CPU to the cal, Pg and dual tanking capabilities to the amarr..and something else: The Cal logis is still as powerful as ever,being able to Out DPS or Out Tank a Gal logi. The real advantage of the gal logi is abusing equipment,thing in my post i specified should be the default LOGI bonus....
Cosgar ParagonX 7889	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:53:00 - [189] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: Fact, you're simply using bold text, ad hominem, and anecdotal observations to sell an argument. You're not the first one to do this because they disagree with me but others did a better job. You want to talk facts, show me some hard supported data. If you want to use power text and imaginary numbers, you're wasting my time. You are simply using big words to sound smart. But in the end,you aren't providing ANY facts yourself on why the suits are ''balanced'' LOL Not even the OP decided to use facts. Hell, there's only one person out of this entire topic that decided to break it down, but not even the OP, of whom the post was directed at decided to respond. You want facts? This topic is just another virtual lynch mob like the many before it. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7889	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:55:00 - [190] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: I abuse the logi as an ASsault ver.2 If you read MY THREAD you'll see im not ''cutting'' off any suit. Its a sensible way to balance them while still regaining most of their qualities. No matter how much you shamelessly promote that topic, it's still a heavy handed nerf to people that do play logistics to support their team just because one suit is overpowered due to broken core mechanics. Remember when shields > armor and the CaLogi was OP? Now it's armor > shields and the GaLogi is the OP one. It's not the slots, it's imbalanced game mechanics. Even if i agree with the imbalanced game mechanics part,i dont really think its a Heavy handed nerf. While i AM removing a slot from every suit.i am giving back CPU to the cal, Pg and dual tanking capabilities to the amarr..and something else: The Cal logis is still as powerful as ever,being able to Out DPS or Out Tank a Gal logi. The real advantage of the gal logi is abusing equipment,thing in my post i specified should be the default LOGI bonus.... Where are you getting this imaginary DPS from? Does a logi suit have some hidden damage bonus that I don't know about? Oh, you must mean damage mods. Since every suit has access to damage mods and stacking penalties only make them so useful after a certain amount, you point is moot. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Leithe Askarii Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 12	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:56:00 - [191] - Quote I cannot understand why no one in the game feels like the dropsuits should fill niche roles......
ACE OF JOKERS AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 70	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:57:00 - [192] - Quote Cosgar wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: Fact, you're simply using bold text, ad hominem, and anecdotal observations to sell an argument. You're not the first one to do this because they disagree with me but others did a better job. You want to talk facts, show me some hard supported data. If you want to use power text and imaginary numbers, you're wasting my time. You are simply using big words to sound smart. But in the end,you aren't providing ANY facts yourself on why the suits are ''balanced'' LOL Not even the OP decided to use facts. Hell, there's only one person out of this entire topic that decided to break it down, but not even the OP, of whom the post was directed at decided to respond. You want facts? This topic is just another virtual lynch mob like the many before it. ''Not even the OP decided to use facts.'' Neither are you.So dont request FACTS while you wont provide them yourself. At least i have common knowledge on my side. Everybody knows that what i was saying was the truth. Proto logis are the most seen/used dropsuits, for a reason.They fulfill any role easily. on another note:That person you say he ''BROKE IT DOWN'' did it incorrectly. Since the Logis can Fit Only armor plates to max tank armor and they STILL have 5HP per sec repair, AND slots to include (R) nanohives. No assault will EVER use a suit without repairers, so the HP difference in EVERY case, is actually BIGGER.
Cosgar ParagonX 7889	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:58:00 - [193] - Quote Leithe Askarii wrote: I cannot understand why no one in the game feels like the dropsuits should fill niche roles...... There's fulfilling a role, being shoehorned into a role, and being completely stripped of any means to defend yourself. Skills and gear should dictate what your role is, not a bunch of people in a 10+ page circle jerk. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7890	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:00:00 - [194] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: ''Not even the OP decided to use facts.'' Neither are you.So dont request FACTS while you wont provide them yourself. At least i have common knowledge on my side. Everybody knows that what i was saying was the truth. Proto logis are the most seen/used dropsuits, for a reason.They fulfill any role easily. on another note:That person you say he ''BROKE IT DOWN'' did it incorrectly. Since the Logis can Fit Only armor plates to max tank armor and they STILL have 5HP per sec repair, AND slots to include (R) nanohives. No assault will EVER use a suit without repairers, so the HP difference in EVERY case, is actually BIGGER,while doing the specified job BETTER . Well, he did challenge anyone to refute his data. Go ahead and have a crack at it. I'm not buying your make believe logi census. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
ACE OF JOKERS AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 71	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:09:00 - [195] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Where are you getting this imaginary DPS from? Does a logi suit have some hidden damage bonus that I don't know about? Oh, you must mean damage mods. Since every suit has access to damage mods and stacking penalties only make them so useful after a certain amount, you point is moot. BUT ITS NOT and you know it. ''Well, he did challenge anyone to refute his data. Go ahead and have a crack at it.'' Im on it. Imagine the following: ASsault Gk.0 ( A REALIST fitting,not the ones proposed by your friend there, without armor reps LOL) 3 Cx damage mods Complex armor rep Complex armor plates Enh Armor plates Duvolle (at prof 5 hitting around 54.5) Shields 150, Armor 680,(Total EHP 830)Speed:6.6,CPU/PG left: 38CPU/4PG,Armor rep:6.25 per sec Now look at the logi, fulfilling the SAME DPS role: Logi Gk.0 3 Cx damage mods 4 Cx Armor plates 1 Enh Armor plate Duvolle (Prof 5 hitting 54.5) Shields 112,Armor 940 (total 1052),Speed 6.15,CPU/PG left: 122 CPU/11PG (Enough to fit AT LEAST a Quantum active scanner.locus grenades,and 2 compact nanohives),Armor rep:5 per sec Now is it 0.45 sprt speed ,a little more stamina and a STD sidearm worth 222 HP and enough CPU and PG to fit a Scanner plus compact nanos to repair? I think not. Hell, Most good players think not....
Meeko Fent Commando Perkone Caldari State 1582	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:11:00 - [196] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: The problem with Logis isn't their weapon. It's their ability to single-handedly outperform the Assault suit in almost every aspect. The 5 HP/s regen coupled with having 2x the fitting potential AND carry 3-4 equipment is what makes them function as Super Assaults. We need to take baby steps to fix this. First, get rid of the 5 HP/s like they've said they would months ago and give them a proper Logi bonus. Get rid of the blanket 10% damage buff from Uprising 1.0 and give the Assault suit a 2% per level damage bonus. That way the bonus is actually useful to ALL Assault suits and not just shield-tankers. Hmmm.... Perhaps instead of a 2% bonus to Damage, how about a 5% decrease to Weapon fitting? More Fitting resources, more tank mods, more assaulting. But yeah, +1 For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy Replication Warrior
Cosgar ParagonX 7892	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:13:00 - [197] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: The problem with Logis isn't their weapon. It's their ability to single-handedly outperform the Assault suit in almost every aspect. The 5 HP/s regen coupled with having 2x the fitting potential AND carry 3-4 equipment is what makes them function as Super Assaults. We need to take baby steps to fix this. First, get rid of the 5 HP/s like they've said they would months ago and give them a proper Logi bonus. Get rid of the blanket 10% damage buff from Uprising 1.0 and give the Assault suit a 2% per level damage bonus. That way the bonus is actually useful to ALL Assault suits and not just shield-tankers. Hmmm.... Perhaps instead of a 2% bonus to Damage, how about a 5% decrease to Weapon fitting? More Fitting resources, more tank mods, more assaulting. But yeah, +1 How come when I said almost the exact same thing, you vehemently disagreed? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Meeko Fent Commando Perkone Caldari State 1582	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:13:00 - [198] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: Where are you getting this imaginary DPS from? Does a logi suit have some hidden damage bonus that I don't know about? Oh, you must mean damage mods. Since every suit has access to damage mods and stacking penalties only make them so useful after a certain amount, you point is moot. BUT ITS NOT and you know it. ''Well, he did challenge anyone to refute his data. Go ahead and have a crack at it.'' Im on it. Imagine the following: ASsault Gk.0 ( A REALIST fitting,not the ones proposed by your friend there, without armor reps LOL) 3 Cx damage mods Complex armor rep Complex armor plates Enh Armor plates Duvolle (at prof 5 hitting around 54.5) Shields 150, Armor 680,(Total EHP 830)Speed:6.6,CPU/PG left: 38CPU/4PG,Armor rep:6.25 per sec Now look at the logi, fulfilling the SAME DPS role: Logi Gk.0 3 Cx damage mods 4 Cx Armor plates 1 Enh Armor plate Duvolle (Prof 5 hitting 54.5) Shields 112,Armor 940 (total 1052),Speed 6.15,CPU/PG left: 122 CPU/11PG (Enough to fit AT LEAST a Quantum active scanner.locus grenades,and 2 compact nanohives),Armor rep:5 per sec Now is it 0.45 sprt speed ,a little more stamina and a STD sidearm worth 222 HP and enough CPU and PG to fit a Scanner plus compact nanos to repair? I think not. Hell, Most good players think not.... Yeah, Cosgar, I think you got outgunned. The Logi moves a bit slower, but, since both speed tanking is dead, and you can spawn a LAV wherever you want, That really doesn't make that big a difference. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy Replication Warrior
Meeko Fent Commando Perkone Caldari State 1582	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:14:00 - [199] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: The problem with Logis isn't their weapon. It's their ability to single-handedly outperform the Assault suit in almost every aspect. The 5 HP/s regen coupled with having 2x the fitting potential AND carry 3-4 equipment is what makes them function as Super Assaults. We need to take baby steps to fix this. First, get rid of the 5 HP/s like they've said they would months ago and give them a proper Logi bonus. Get rid of the blanket 10% damage buff from Uprising 1.0 and give the Assault suit a 2% per level damage bonus. That way the bonus is actually useful to ALL Assault suits and not just shield-tankers. Hmmm.... Perhaps instead of a 2% bonus to Damage, how about a 5% decrease to Weapon fitting? More Fitting resources, more tank mods, more assaulting. But yeah, +1 How come when I said almost the exact same thing, you vehemently disagreed? Hmm? When? For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy Replication Warrior
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 838	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:16:00 - [200] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Assault suit bonus: CPU/PG fitting reduction to all weapons and weapon mods. Assaults get access to better firepower, logis keep their survivability at the cost of less firepower. Sidearms stop being underrated and everyone can STFU about suits so we can ***** about TTK until CCP fixes it. Done and done. On a deeper thought that is a good idea. Assaults having a considerable bonus for all handheld weps fitting. That might give assaults a unique luxury: able to really utilize the sidearm slot with small PG+CPU cost. Maybe then they would be only suits which could really bring proto sidearms to common use and really use both in cqc combat. Feeling the scanner is too simple and off balance? The fix:

Cosgar ParagonX 7893	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:18:00 - [201] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: Where are you getting this imaginary DPS from? Does a logi suit have some hidden damage bonus that I don't know about? Oh, you must mean damage mods. Since every suit has access to damage mods and stacking penalties only make them so useful after a certain amount, you point is moot. BUT ITS NOT and you know it. ''Well, he did challenge anyone to refute his data. Go ahead and have a crack at it.'' Im on it. Imagine the following: ASsault Gk.0 ( A REALIST fitting,not the ones proposed by your friend there, without armor reps LOL) 3 Cx damage mods Complex armor rep Complex armor plates Enh Armor plates Duvolle (at prof 5 hitting around 54.5) Shields 150, Armor 680,(Total EHP 830)Speed:6.6,CPU/PG left: 38CPU/4PG,Armor rep:6.25 per sec Now look at the logi, fulfilling the SAME DPS role: Logi Gk.0 3 Cx damage mods 4 Cx Armor plates 1 Enh Armor plate Duvolle (Prof 5 hitting 54.5) Shields 112,Armor 940 (total 1052),Speed 6.15,CPU/PG left: 122 CPU/11PG (Enough to fit AT LEAST a Quantum active scanner.locus grenades,and 2 compact nanohives),Armor rep:5 per sec Now is it 0.45 sprt speed ,a little more stamina and a STD sidearm worth 222 HP and enough CPU and PG to fit a Scanner plus compact nanos to repair? I think not. Hell, Most good players think not.... Yeah, Cosgar, I think you got outgunned. The Logi moves a bit slower, but, since both speed tanking is dead, and you can spawn a LAV wherever you want, That really doesn't make that big a difference. Still only going to survive a 1v1 encounter, maybe 2 if you have enough time to use up those compact hives. Also, stop bringing up the LAV, some people still carry AV grenades and a forge gunner will always be out there. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 839	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:25:00 - [202] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: IMO the best way to balance logis is: 1-Give them THE EXACT same amount of high and low slots as Assaults.The extra CPU-PG is for equipment,not Assault mode. 2-Change their bonus to the Gallente logi bonus: -Logi default bonus: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on equipment Specific racial: -GAllente Logi: +1 Armor rep per level (so this one stays the same) -Cal Logi:15% Shield regen rate per level (For a maximum of +75% = 35 Shield per sec) -Amarr Logi: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on Active Scanners and Drop Uplinks per level -Minmatar Logi: 5% Hacking speed per level I might even post this with its own thread later.... Work on those bonuses then. The Logistics wide bonus is nice, but the new individual ones make some weak links. Hacking, for example, is almost useless in two of three game modes so Minmatar would be right out. Amarr have limited equips already, so giving them further reductions to the Scout-type equipment is nice but having lost their tank bonus to the Gallente it is far from good. The Cal and Gal Logi both have survivability bonuses, good in every situation. Harpyia, please focus on the real fixing change: the general logi bonus being Eq fitting reduction bonus. Ignore those extra suggestions of racial bonuses, they are a subject of another thread once the general bonus is really set... BTW Ace of Jokers suggestion is GREAT, it's roughly the same I've been trumpeting for long (nerf on logi PG+CPU but big reduction bonus for Eq) Feeling the scanner is too simple and off balance? The fix:
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Unit Unicorn 961	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:33:00 - [203] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: BTW Ace of Jokers suggestion is GREAT, it's roughly the same I've been trumpeting for long (nerf on logi PG+CPU but big reduction bonus for Eq) I think that it's all we're asking since...well 1.0? *"Quella non è latenza... è il livello di magia arcobaleno della squadra!"* Join the Rainbow side of the Force
ACE OF JOKERS AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 76	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:36:00 - [204] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Still only going to survive a 1v1 encounter, maybe 2 if you have enough time to use up those compact hives. . Thats the thing. It SURVIVES.It Wins.STILL you say? What the point of playing a FPS if its not Killing your opponent and Surviving? .all this While the assault is failing at what hes supposed to do best. The logi might be designed for adaptability, but the assaults are designed for ASSAULTING mostly,and they are being outdone by logis in every corner. Players constantly flocking to the Logi side to be better assaults or scouts like myself are proof.
Cosgar ParagonX 7899	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:53:00 - [205] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: Still only going to survive a 1v1 encounter, maybe 2 if you have enough time to use up those compact hives. . Thats the thing. It SURVIVES.It Wins.STILL you say? What the point of playing a FPS if its not Killing your opponent and Surviving? .all this While the assault is failing at what hes supposed to do best. The logi might be designed for adaptability, but the assaults are designed for ASSAULTING mostly,and they are being outdone by logis in every corner. Players constantly flocking to the Logi side to be better assaults or scouts like myself are proof. Simple question. Without simply trying to nerf another class, what would make assaults and scouts more attractive? Focus on that instead of limiting logistics, punishing people that don't abuse broken game mechanics. Hell, fix broken mechanics like armor/shield imbalance, TTK, and the absence of strafing before you touch another game mechanic that looks better on paper because nothing else does. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2426	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:13:00 - [206] - Quote Logistics is a support class, so it should be able to use supporting weapons such as the mass driver and any other that gets released. These are light weapons, so the logistics suit must be able to fit light weapons.
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 2858	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:19:00 - [207] - Quote skippy678 wrote: just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. lol you scrub. He was a logistics before your clone was even born. I've been with Logi bro when Zion TCD was good and Mr Zitro raged on the forums. We have been Logistics since the only Logistics suit was Minmatar. Know who you're speaking to vermin.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 921	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:23:00 - [208] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Let me preface this thread by saying I want to discuss this idea, how it would affect the logi class, how it would be implemented, etc. If you disagree with the argument, I would urge you to explain why, because if you simply write, "lol this is a bad idea," then I will simply read it as, "pwease don't take away my crutch!" Also, I'd like to throw out some stipulations before I make my own argument. First, Amarr logi's, in this situation, would receive only a single light weapon. Second, I would not expect CCP to implement this idea until there have been AT LEAST three more sidearms released for us to use, so that not every logi is running a Winmatar SMG. Alright, so let me start with the implications. What would happen if every logi had to run a sidearm at this exact moment from now on? Well, I imagine that most logissaults would come to the forums to cry, and to be fair to them, it is a very drastic change, so a respec might be justified in this situation. (when I say respec, I mean specifically SP taken out of logi dropsuit command skills, and nothing else.) All pure logistics players, on the other hand, would also likely come to the forums to complain that their light weapon skills are now useless to them, so a respec specifically in the light weapons tree would also be justified. The logistics class as a whole would become more vulnerable, but not actually useless, there are people that run dual sidearms despite having a light weapon slot because they WANT to, I imagine logi's will still be able to defend themselves in CQC. Outside of CQC, of course, they would be shooting practice, so logi's that currently run lone-wolf mode(myself included) would be encouraged to stick close to team-mates to keep them safe over long distance combat. Overall, it means that logi's can still combat, but not as effectively as assault players. As for how it would be implemented, I would expect a few buffs to help the logi out with this extreme change. First, the maximum amount of equipment carried should be increased to five, so that Amarr/Caldari would get four slots at the proto tier, and Minmatar/Gallente would get five at proto. Obviously, this is strengthening the logistics role. Second, logi speed should be buffed to be exactly at level with assault, currently logi speed is about 5% below assault. This would allow logi's to keep pace with their assault brethren, so that they don't get left in the dust trying to keep up with a group. Lastly, stamina and stamina regeneration would be buffed to an area somewhere between assaults and scouts. Logistics suits will need to be mobile to cope with the new change, and this will help tremendously. Overall, it makes the logistics class more logisctic-y. So let's talk about the other classes and how they might be affected by this difference. Assault suits would become more popular, because a large majority of assault players are currently residing in god-mode logistics suits. Heavy suits would come out of hiding if they thought there was a high chance that they would find a logi bro in most games, and scouts would be pretty much the same. I think removal of the assault suit's equipment slots would be appropriate, to make logistics player more needed on the battlefield, and it would be wise to increase the scout's equipment max to two so that nanohives don't become too rare. Overall, I'd say the other classes would be happy not getting outperformed in every way by the logi. My TL;DR: Yes, I am advocating that the logistics class should get only a sidearm. If you didn't read the thread and just scrolled down here to get a quick version, then suck it up and read the rest of my post. Constructive criticism is welcomed if you actually have a reasonable argument, like I said before, don't give me a "lolno," because it makes you look like a crutch-using tool. I was going to complain, until you mentioned the buffs. If they gave me the speed of the Assault suit and more equipment slots, I'd just run a Scrambler Pistol. The standard Scrambler Pistol with no skills has the same DPS as a Duvolle with Proficiency 5 and a 4.5x headshot modifier that 2HKOs people. However, I would like to point out that the Logistics suits do not outperform the Assaults in every way. They lack a sidearm, speed and health. You can replace the health with your slots, but this either slows you down further or lowers your damage mods. If you run full equipment, you also have a lot less CPU and PG. I would actually like it if the Amarr Logistics suit could carry two sidearms. With a wider variety of sidearms, it could be a lot of fun. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 654	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:34:00 - [209] - Quote Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" Plasma Cannon Advocate
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 613	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:51:00 - [210] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" Everybody has a playstyle, yours seems to work well. Congrats. But I don't have some symbiotic relationship with just one player. Someone I just cling to the entire game. I that works then all the power to you. But I work to keep all my teammates alive. In Squad matches that means my entire fireteam. In Pub battles that is everyone...blue or green. It is a dangerous world out there. I'd rather not traverse it with just a Scrambler Pistol. Thanks anyway. "True Logi"

Zatara Rought Imperfects 1689	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:54:00 - [211] - Quote Oh God. so much badposting. I don't know where to begin. I don't think logi's being relegated to sidearms is the answer. increased ttk, adding a 2nd equip to assaults and scouts while slightly increasing only scouts cpu/pg by say....10% and slightly nerfing logi's base hp are all better options. Personally in Competitive PC matches assault suits > logi's. I can't stretch this enough. Logi's are competitive with assaults...but per capita they win...increased ttk would be a passive nerf to logi's by making sidearms more relevant (currently with 2 damage mods on a prof 3 weapon you can pretty much down anyone without needing a sidearm) Just some thoughts I didn't want 2 delve 2 deeply. That's Master nader to you scrub. Skype me @ Zatara.Rought CCP's Motto: "SoonGäó"
SgtDoughnut Red Star Jr. EoN. 386	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:56:00 - [212] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: skippy678 wrote: just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. lol you scrub. He was a logistics before your clone was even born. I've been with Logi bro when Zion TCD was good and Mr Zitro raged on the forums. We have been Logistics since the only Logistics suit was Minmatar. Know who you're speaking to vermin. Exactly how far up your own asses are your heads?
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1120	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:58:00 - [213] - Quote SgtDoughnut wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: skippy678 wrote: just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. lol you scrub. He was a logistics before your clone was even born. I've been with Logi bro when Zion TCD was good and Mr Zitro raged on the forums. We have been Logistics since the only Logistics suit was Minmatar. Know who you're speaking to vermin. Exactly how far up your own asses are your heads? I would measure that for you, but it's way to far in. Even Thale's don't have that kind of range. Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1120	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:05:00 - [214] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" You are an idiot. How exactly do you think your friend is gonna guard you? By being your meatshield? I'll just gun you down and then work on your friend afterwards. Everyone doesn't always need a repair or resupply 24/7. And I shouldn't be restricted to only being a medic. That would kill most of the fun out of the logistics class. What happens when your partner is down but there is an enemy nearby? Are you gonna revive him and hope that you and him don't get gunned down in the process? You shouldn't even bother trying to kill that enemy because after all, Logis don't need weapons do they? Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 654	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:05:00 - [215] - Quote RydogV wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" Everybody has a playstyle, yours seems to work well. Congrats. But I don't have some symbiotic relationship with just one player. Someone I just cling to the entire game. I that works then all the power to you. But I work to keep all my teammates alive. In Squad matches that means my entire fireteam. In Pub battles that is everyone...blue or green. It is a dangerous world out there. I'd rather not traverse it with just a Scrambler Pistol. Thanks anyway. "True Logi" I completely understand and I can do exactly that. I just have a pet that's all Plasma Cannon Advocate
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 654	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:09:00 - [216] - Quote Atiim wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" You are an idiot. How exactly do you think your friend is gonna guard you? By being your meatshield? I'll just gun you down and then work on your friend afterwards. Everyone doesn't always need a repair or resupply 24/7. And I shouldn't be restricted to only being a medic. That would kill most of the fun out of the logistics class. What happens when your partner is down but there is an enemy nearby? Are you gonna revive him and hope that you and him don't get gunned down in the process? You shouldn't even bother trying to kill that enemy because after all, Logis don't need weapons do they? LOL you sir don't know how to logi. You can't touch this when I doing tactics. people don't play smart. All they want to do is run and gun... Then when something different comes in the field they get steamrolled. I see this all the time. People going after me they don't go after the person I'm repping. But squad play get it done. Playing slowly rewards the player . Since I didnt rush in, I didn't get surropunded. Since I didnt get surrounded My tam got the kills. Since MY team got the kills We won the match. You insult me but I have got the logi down to a T. If you want to slay with your logi then Hats off for being a leach on the system Plasma Cannon Advocate
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2428	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:10:00 - [217] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" You aren't being nearly as effective as you can be if you are glued to your squadmate's backside 24/7. If he's not hurt you should be doing something else like shooting, hacking, deploying equipment, or scanning. You may enjoy your limmited play style, but it would bore me to death.
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1178	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:11:00 - [218] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Shadow Archeus wrote: I support restricting logos to a sidearm.......but here's an alternative rather lengthy but would add a little more diversity Make a medium weapon class......this would include mass drivers.....sniper rifles......swarm launchers......scrambler rifles....and the new rifles All suits can use medium weapons but logistics suits Future suits could limit weapons in this manner I.e. a scout suit that can't use medium weapons but in turn is faster and more durable....or a heavy that is the same(faster than a commando but with 1000hp but can only use light weapons There's a lot that it could open up I proposed something similar awhile back. The difference being that I proposed a "Logi" Weapon slot which would fit between Light and Sidearm. The "Logi Weapon" class would include Laser Rifle, Mass Driver, Plasma Cannon, Shotgun, Sniper Rifle and Swarm Launcher. It was shouted down by the Assport Logis. I believe the reason it was shouted down is because it sounds asstarded. Why would you give the situational weapons, the ones that need a SIDEARM, to the only suit WITH NO SIDEARM. What do you do when someone gets right up on you with a Sniper Rifle? What do you do when you have a Shotgun and someone shoots at you at 30 meters out? What do you shoot at someone when they aren't in your Laser Rifle's five meters of effectiveness? ECM Equipment
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 654	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:11:00 - [219] - Quote Skihids wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" You aren't being nearly as effective as you can be if you are glued to your squadmate's backside 24/7. If he's not hurt you should be doing something else like shooting, hacking, deploying equipment, or scanning. You may enjoy your limmited play style, but it would bore me to death. You don't know what you are talking about. I hack, put equipment down but I am not trying to be a 1 man army like most of these wannabee logi's. They playstyle is not as limited as just pointing and shooting. I play enough to know that half the things people say in these forums are bull and am completely tired of it. Plasma Cannon Advocate
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1179	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:19:00 - [220] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Atiim wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" You are an idiot. How exactly do you think your friend is gonna guard you? By being your meatshield? I'll just gun you down and then work on your friend afterwards. Everyone doesn't always need a repair or resupply 24/7. And I shouldn't be restricted to only being a medic. That would kill most of the fun out of the logistics class. What happens when your partner is down but there is an enemy nearby? Are you gonna revive him and hope that you and him don't get gunned down in the process? You shouldn't even bother trying to kill that enemy because after all, Logis don't need weapons do they? LOL you sir don't know how to logi. You can't touch this when I doing tactics. people don't play smart. All they want to do is run and gun... Then when something different comes in the field they get steamrolled. I see this all the time. People going after me they don't go after the person I'm repping. But squad play get it done. Playing slowly rewards the player . Since I didnt rush in, I didn't get surropunded. Since I didnt get surrounded My tam got the kills. Since MY team got the kills We won the match. You insult me but I have got the logi down to a T. If you want to slay with your logi then Hats off for being a leach on the system Not to put too fine a point on it, but this isn't TF2. I'm a pro-level Medic in TF2, and what you're doing fits that to a T, but in here you're a damned moron. If he's at full HP and you still have your rep tool on him you are wasting everyone's time, mostly your own. You are far more effective in a fight aiming your gun than healing a target under fire. A Core Repair tool does 180-odd HP a second. An unskilled militia AR does 425 damage a second, 383 to the armor layer you are attempting to heal. There is QUITE the discrepancy, and you REALLY aren't helping much. You would be alot more effective if you countered the 425 with your own 425. ECM Equipment

Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2429	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:32:00 - [221] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Skihids wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" You aren't being nearly as effective as you can be if you are glued to your squadmate's backside 24/7. If he's not hurt you should be doing something else like shooting, hacking, deploying equipment, or scanning. You may enjoy your limmited play style, but it would bore me to death. You don't know what you are talking about. I hack, put equipment down but I am not trying to be a 1 man army like most of these wannabee logi's. They playstyle is not as limited as just pointing and shooting. I play enough to know that half the things people say in these forums are bull and am completely tired of it. Ummm, Quote: I have my rep tool on him 24/7 I'm pretty sure that I read this correctly. As an effective Logi you should at minimum be laying down cover fire to help your assault partner rather than hiding in the back letting him take all the heat. A couple MD rounds can make all the difference in a gunfight. You can't keep him alive with a rep tool if two ARs are aimed at him, and that's what will happen if I and my assault partner run into you.
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 654	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:33:00 - [222] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Atiim wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" You are an idiot. How exactly do you think your friend is gonna guard you? By being your meatshield? I'll just gun you down and then work on your friend afterwards. Everyone doesn't always need a repair or resupply 24/7. And I shouldn't be restricted to only being a medic. That would kill most of the fun out of the logistics class. What happens when your partner is down but there is an enemy nearby? Are you gonna revive him and hope that you and him don't get gunned down in the process? You shouldn't even bother trying to kill that enemy because after all, Logis don't need weapons do they? LOL you sir don't know how to logi. You can't touch this when I doing tactics. people don't play smart. All they want to do is run and gun... Then when something different comes in the field they get steamrolled. I see this all the time. People going after me they don't go after the person I'm repping. But squad play get it done. Playing slowly rewards the player . Since I didnt rush in, I didn't get surropunded. Since I didnt get surrounded My tam got the kills. Since MY team got the kills We won the match. You insult me but I have got the logi down to a T. If you want to slay with your logi then Hats off for being a leach on the system Not to put too fine a point on it, but this isn't TF2. I'm a pro-level Medic in TF2, and what you're doing fits that to a T, but in here you're a damned moron. If he's at full HP and you still have your rep tool on him you are wasting everyone's time, mostly your own. You are far more effective in a fight aiming your gun than healing a target under fire. A Core Repair tool does 180-odd HP a second. An unskilled militia AR does 425 damage a second, 383 to the armor layer you are attempting to heal. There is QUITE the discrepancy, and you REALLY aren't helping much. You would be alot more effective if you countered the 425 with your own 425. who ever said I dont do anything else but rep if he is full... Last I heard I had 4 equipment slots to do whatever the hell I want. Deducing That I'm just repping is basically ignorant. Just so you know Guardian 35 points scan bonus 15 points total 50 points without defend order. You decide whether I'm the one doing it wrong ^^ Plasma Cannon Advocate
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 654	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:35:00 - [223] - Quote Skihids wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Skihids wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" You aren't being nearly as effective as you can be if you are glued to your squadmate's backside 24/7. If he's not hurt you should be doing something else like shooting, hacking, deploying equipment, or scanning. You may enjoy your limmited play style, but it would bore me to death. You don't know what you are talking about. I hack, put equipment down but I am not trying to be a 1 man army like most of these wannabee logi's. They playstyle is not as limited as just pointing and shooting. I play enough to know that half the things people say in these forums are bull and am completely tired of it. Ummm, Quote: I have my rep tool on him 24/7 I'm pretty sure that I read this correctly. As an effective Logi you should at minimum be laying down cover fire to help your assault partner rather than hiding in the back letting him take all the heat. A couple MD rounds can make all the difference in a gunfight. You can't keep him alive with a rep tool if two ARs are aimed at him, and that's what will happen if I and my assault partner run into you. Taking things litterally is wrong. Use the experience you have in the game. Deduce that there are other things to be done. 24/7 thats a reference to every day of the week?? I wonder how litterally you took it Plasma Cannon Advocate
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 921	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:38:00 - [224] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Taking things litterally is wrong. Use the experience you have in the game. Deduce that there are other things to be done. 24/7 thats a reference to every day of the week?? I wonder how litterally you took it "24/7" refers to every hour of every day. It means "all the time." Is there another way to take it? Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2429	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:39:00 - [225] - Quote You state: Quote: I have my rep tool on him 24/7 Then you protest: Quote: That I'm just repping is basically ignorant. So you were blowing smoke up our asses with your first post?
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2429	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:46:00 - [226] - Quote Quote: Quote: Ummm, Quote: I have my rep tool on him 24/7 I'm pretty sure that I read this correctly. As an effective Logi you should at minimum be laying down cover fire to help your assault partner rather than hiding in the back letting him take all the heat. A couple MD rounds can make all the difference in a gunfight. You can't keep him alive with a rep tool if two ARs are aimed at him, and that's what will happen if I and my assault partner run into you. Taking things litterally is wrong. Use the experience you have in the game. Deduce that there are other things to be done. 24/7 thats a reference to every day of the week?? I wonder how litterally you took it Yes, there ARE other things to be done, like shooting the bad guy! But you seem to assume that some of these "other things" are legitimate and others are not with no list and no explanation as to why one is legit and another not.
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 234	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:49:00 - [227] - Quote As an adv logi and proto assault, both minmatar, i believe that having the 'logistics' class wirld a sidearm would be a somewhat useful change- somewhat- however i believe we should give scouts 2 equips at adv, and an extra module. However for the people who REALLY wanna do half slay half logi, we should give basic frames a 2nd equipment to begin with, and maybe a 3rd at proto. Tl:dr remove logi light weapon, replace with sidearm, hand em an extra equipment. Make a basic xk.1 that wields light weapon and 2-3 equipments. Generalist 'logi' and the dedicated 'logi', AKA EvE style. Not even gonna push it, just throwing it out there. -Newly proclaimed Lazor riffle specialist- "You said yourself fantastically 'congratulations you are all alone.'"
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz 504	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:49:00 - [228] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" Then "True" Logis are bad. Good Logis know to kill the enemy before you rez/revive, and killing the enemy takes priority since you're not helping anyone dead or with an enemy shooting at you when you're rezzing. Why? Because DPS speed > Rez speed.
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 2236	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:51:00 - [229] - Quote Shouldn't happen. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja. Forum Warrior level 2 A grunt of STB
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1179	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:53:00 - [230] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Atiim wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" You are an idiot. How exactly do you think your friend is gonna guard you? By being your meatshield? I'll just gun you down and then work on your friend afterwards. Everyone doesn't always need a repair or resupply 24/7. And I shouldn't be restricted to only being a medic. That would kill most of the fun out of the logistics class. What happens when your partner is down but there is an enemy nearby? Are you gonna revive him and hope that you and him don't get gunned down in the process? You shouldn't even bother trying to kill that enemy because after all, Logis don't need weapons do they? LOL you sir don't know how to logi. You can't touch this when I doing tactics. people don't play smart. All they want to do is run and gun... Then when something different comes in the field they get steamrolled. I see this all the time. People going after me they don't go after the person I'm repping. But squad play get it done. Playing slowly rewards the player . Since I didnt rush in, I didn't get surropunded. Since I didnt get surrounded My tam got the kills. Since MY team got the kills We won the match. You insult me but I have got the logi down to a T. If you want to slay with your logi then Hats off for being a leach on the system Not to put too fine a point on it, but this isn't TF2. I'm a pro-level Medic in TF2, and what you're doing fits that to a T, but in here you're a damned moron. If he's at full HP and you still have your rep tool on him you are wasting everyone's time, mostly your own. You are far more effective in a fight aiming your gun than healing a target under fire. A Core Repair tool does 180-odd HP a second. An unskilled militia AR does 425 damage a second, 383 to the armor layer you are attempting to heal. There is QUITE the discrepancy, and you REALLY aren't helping much. You would be alot more effective if you countered the 425 with your own 425. who ever said I dont do anything else but rep if he is full... Last I heard I had 4 equipment slots to do whatever the hell I want. Deducing That I'm just repping is basically ignorant. Just so you know Guardian 35 points scan bonus 15 points total 50 points without defend order. You decide whether I'm the one doing it wrong ^^ If you are, in fact, 'healing 24/7', you are 'doing it wrong'. Healing in combat is also 'doing it wrong.' If you're both behind cover and you are trying to heal him before the enemy rounds the corner that's one thing, but in combat, as demonstrated above, you are a waste of life healing instead of shooting. Furthermore, I am not ignorant for trusting what you said to be true. Is it my fault you lied to us about how you play the game? We were going off faulty information from an unreliable narrator if that was the case. In any case, I have mathematically proven that the most unskilled newberry can lay down more damage than the most skilled logistics player can heal, and by a minimum factor of THREE. Your turn. Also, FOUR equip slots? Nice protosuit Mr. Serious. As a special note, just because it gives more WP doesn't mean it's right. People used to get more WP ramming a car into a wall than actually fighting. Plus, in a 2v2 situation, battlehealing logis will lose every time :3 ECM Equipment

Cosgar ParagonX 7912	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:53:00 - [231] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" Then "True" Logis are bad. Good Logis know to kill the enemy before you rez/revive, and killing the enemy takes priority since you're not helping anyone dead or with an enemy shooting at you when you're rezzing. Why? Because DPS speed > Rez speed. See, this is kind of the issue with the whole sidearm argument. Would you rather have a guy that can fight along side you and run support, or a guy that can't really do anything unless you take damage, run out of ammo or go down? Dust is still a FPS (even though it doesn't feel like one at times) and we're all slayers first and class roles second. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Rusty Shallows 510	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:56:00 - [232] - Quote skippy678 wrote: Logi Bro wrote: skippy678 wrote: just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. ....do you have the ability to read? Try again, and look at my name, and then tell me that I am talking about a different class. (Psst here's a hint, I AM a logi) Your name dosent make you a Logi.....the fact that you are trying to nerf your own suit means your an idiot or lying. end of my conversation here troll He's the original Logi Bro, fighting the good fight back when the only logistics suit was the minmatar and the caldari assault rocked all with its two equipment slots. The guy whose posts set a combat-support play-style mentality that spread throughout the community. You are very correct Skippy678 his name does not automatically make Logi Bro a logi. His history however does. "She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 654	Posted - 2013.11.18 06:00:00 - [233] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" Then "True" Logis are bad. Good Logis know to kill the enemy before you rez/revive, and killing the enemy takes priority since you're not helping anyone dead or with an enemy shooting at you when you're rezzing. Why? Because DPS speed > Rez speed. See, this is kind of the issue with the whole sidearm argument. Would you rather have a guy that can fight along side you and run support, or a guy that can't really do anything unless you take damage, run out of ammo or go down? Dust is still a FPS (even though it doesn't feel like one at times) and we're all slayers first and class roles second. Hello cosgar. I actually have to disagree with you in this one. People think that just because you can only use a side arm you can't fight alongside. I think that train of thought is wrong. A sidearm can give support fore and with the new repair tool stats there is literally nothing that can kill my pet. Let's say I just use a BDR-8 triage repair tool. With the correct gameplay I will have kept my teammate alive and will have doubled our warpoint gain. I can tell you this, and you can ask anyone that squads with me on a regular basis. IT can be done. Just as I made the plasma cannon on my signature usefull, being a pure logi build without enfassis on weaponry is actually a force multiplier not a a drop in dps. While me and my mates are chipping away at their armor while mainting our ours intact we get through things that couldnt be done otherwise. Plasma Cannon Advocate
Illuminaughty-696 Omega Risk Control Services 305	Posted - 2013.11.18 06:06:00 - [234] - Quote Don't make major changes to the way a suit works without SP refunds of impacted skills. This game is such a frikkin' beta still despite arguments to the contrary. Now, that being said, logi's can far too easily be used as all-around suits as is, so I see the merit in your idea. However, few, if any would still play logi's except organized corps who can convince (or simply have recruited people willing to do so) such logi suits. All of my equipment slots are filled and I run around as a logi most times. However, remove the light weapon and I won't play them any longer, and I suspect this will be true of a sizable portion of the current logi club. Then consider what impact it would have on the balance of the game to have so many people stop playing logistics because their only point in life has become support and you can't even do that well on the large open maps because you can't even kind of toss out suppressing fire at would be assailants because sidearms have atrocious range. Yeah, fun. Anyway, not as well argued as it could have been, but it is 1:00 in the morning and I need to be up in a few hours. Toodles.
Cosgar ParagonX 7912	Posted - 2013.11.18 06:06:00 - [235] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Hello cosgar. I actually have to disagree with you in this one. People think that just because you can only use a side arm you can't fight alongside. I think that train of thought is wrong. A sidearm can give support fore and with the new repair tool stats there is literally nothing that can kill my pet. Let's say I just use a BDR-8 triage repair tool. With the correct gameplay I will have kept my teammate alive and will have doubled our warpoint gain. I can tell you this, and you can ask anyone that squads with me on a regular basis. IT can be done. Just as I made the plasma cannon on my signature usefull, being a pure logi build without enfassis on weaponry is actually a force multiplier not a a drop in dps. While me and my mates are chipping away at their armor while mainting our ours intact we get through things that couldnt be done otherwise. It all depends on the logi and their playstyle. You know I favor the mass driver in most cases, but I also use the GLU-5 on more wide open maps and a SMG/ScP in situations where it's more beneficial to run all proto equipment. Every situation is different and a wider variety of weapons is more beneficial than being restricted to a certain range or a certain playstyle. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 654	Posted - 2013.11.18 06:30:00 - [236] - Quote Cosgar wrote: It all depends on the logi and their playstyle. You know I favor the mass driver in most cases, but I also use the GLU-5 on more wide open maps and a SMG/ScP in situations where it's more beneficial to run all proto equipment. Every situation is different and a wider variety of weapons is more beneficial than being restricted to a certain range or a certain playstyle. I completely agree but we have our variety from what we can do on the field not by how we can kill. kiling variations belongs to assaults who can mostly only kill. Currently I am dead tired of seeing logi's everywhere and no nanohives, reps, uplinks, etc. Having more slot layout, more CPU/PWGRD whilst having the same killing power than assault breaks the system. Cosgar, you know I am a logi. I used to use the mass driver but switched to the plasma cannon on a logi. If that weapon doesn't prove that a logi can use a side arm then nothing will make a believer out of anyone. As things stands the logi suit is in real danger of having something worse happen to it than get their weapons restricted to sidearms. I for one don't wan't that to happen. I hear a lot of crazy talk being thrown around and I for one feel that being restricted to a side arm is much better than having my overall slot layout reduced or something like that. Plasma Cannon Advocate
Cosgar ParagonX 7913	Posted - 2013.11.18 06:38:00 - [237] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Cosgar wrote: It all depends on the logi and their playstyle. You know I favor the mass driver in most cases, but I also use the GLU-5 on more wide open maps and a SMG/ScP in situations where it's more beneficial to run all proto equipment. Every situation is different and a wider variety of weapons is more beneficial than being restricted to a certain range or a certain playstyle. I completely agree but we have our variety from what we can do on the field not by how we can kill. kiling variations belongs to assaults who can mostly only kill. Currently I am dead tired of seeing logi's everywhere and no nanohives, reps, uplinks, etc. Having more slot layout, more CPU/PWGRD whilst having the same killing power than assault breaks the system. Cosgar, you know I am a logi. I used to use the mass driver but switched to the plasma cannon on a logi. If that weapon doesn't prove that a logi can use a side arm then nothing will make a believer out of anyone. As things stands the logi suit is in real danger of having something worse happen to it than get their weapons restricted to sidearms. I for one don't wan't that to happen. I hear a lot of crazy talk being thrown around and I for one feel that being restricted to a side arm is much better than having my overall slot layout reduced or something like that. Given that outside of visible health bars, CCP hasn't said anything logi related since 1.3, I think we're safe. If changes need to be made though, the other suits should be touched and brought up to logistics level of attractiveness instead of the other way around. Just look at what an assault suit gets compared to a logistics when you look at the basic medium. Logis are an entirely different class and assaults keep the same base stats but different bonuses. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 410	Posted - 2013.11.18 06:42:00 - [238] - Quote My head hurts. OK, many years ago in The Simpsons, the school strikes oil and poll their employees as to how to spend the money. The lunch lady comes in and says: lunch lady Doris wrote: "The staff are complaining about the mice in the kitchen...." "I want to hire a new staff!" Logi bro said it himself, the problem is logis not using equipment. So, here's what we get: Logi bro wrote: "The logistics players aren't using their equipment....." "Let's take away their weapons!" How does taking away a light weapon fix the problem of people not filling equipment slots? Oh, right, it doesn't! You are solving one problem by causing an entirely new and worse one? Brilliant! CCP hire this man immediately! "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 410	Posted - 2013.11.18 06:43:00 - [239] - Quote Res "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Kazeno Rannaa BIG BAD W0LVES 308	Posted - 2013.11.18 07:07:00 - [240] - Quote Who are you people? CQC is only half the game and 90% I am supporting a squad that is ranging in the open. Hell more than half of the time I am the last one standing and have to revive several of my squad members after an engagement. No LW? Without it I would not be able to support my squad effectively in our intelligence gathering roles as LRRP members. I get that you were GÇ£logi before it was coolGÇ¥ but really, why the hatred? This kind of request is ridiculous and asinine. Because there has been a lack of all the basic racial variants in suits and weapons, this is your suggestion as a solution for what, the lack of available variety? The arguments that you present, while interestingly ludicrous, considering that logiGÇÖs need to be able to maintain themselves on the frontline and if they are being shot at by weapons from LW ranges, the Sidearm will do them nothing but get them killed. More equipment, greater stamina and speed when they are carrying exponentially more equipment than an assault. The makes absolutely no sense to me. And the argument about the slow speeds of the logos and how they are not able to keep up with the assaults, well that is usually solved by coordinated movements of a squad and the squad basing itGÇÖs speed off of the slowest individuals, which should be the heavies, not the logiGÇÖs. The Assault are SUPPOSED to be faster because they are the ones that are supposed to be IN FRONT of the logis and heavies. They are the reaction team that initiates the engagements. If I am luck I finish it off, or I run in a two -three person team to work security and parameter clearance. AS a matter of fact, if you were to take the example of current combat medics/ support in the military of today, you will see all of them with not only a sidearm, but also a battle rifle (i.e., AR, etc.). Your reasoning for this request is paper thin at best and lacks any real substantive elements. Your only reason is your arbitrary and capricious interpretation of GÇ£what a logi should act likeGÇ¥ on the battlefield. Bollocks. This idea of yours seems to be wanting for a basis, so please enlighten the rest of us with your wisdom. What are you real intentions here? Obviously not to make logiGÇÖs more logistically? And really, who are you to impose your version of how things should be in MY corp. If that is a rule that you wish to implement in EON, be my guest. But donGÇÖt come into somebody elseGÇÖs houser telling them what to cook, how to dress, or whether or not they are allowed to drink scotch. And if you donGÇÖt get the analogy, well I can see that I am talking with THE tool.

Kazeno Rannaa BIG BAD W0LVES 310	Posted - 2013.11.18 07:10:00 - [241] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Problem number 2, which is "How this idea is built on a false premise and will destroy the logistics class" TechMechMeds suggested sidearms only a month or so ago, and I talked him out of it. My argument is this. He, like probably the rest of you who actually play logistics and think this is a good idea (people who don't play logistics are not qualified to comment here, sorry) likely base it on the fact that you run sidearm only (probably SMG, maybe some ScP) and still kill a lot of people... IN YOUR PROTO SUIT WITH AN ISHUKONE SMG (and probably proficiency 5). So, are you going to give away a free no skill requirement ishukone SMG with every basic logi suit? No? Well, guess what, nobody will ever decide to play logistics again. Even if a lot of us don't just abandon the class, it will die a slow death of attrition because nobody in their right mind will go into it! Why? Picture yourself as a new player. One hour after you make your toon, you are done with the academy and start getting protostomped. Relentlessly. In a way that none of us that started in beta can identify with because there just weren't as many proto players. Obviously their train of thought will be exactly like this: Boy, I sure do love getting crushed every single battle I play. Nothing beats going 1/12 with 75 WP! If only I could make this experience better somehow.... slaps forehead OF COURSE! I can limit myself to just a sidearm! Running around in a STD logi suit with my militia SMG will make me so OP! Good thing I have a toxin BPO to make it a little easier... Oh shoot, they don't offer those anymore. Oh well. No one in their right mind will decide to become a logi! Hooray, we fixed Dust! Everyone has a gallente assault suit and an AR now. Man this is paradise. That's funny, I don't remember running out of ammo so easily before. Weird. A man who has at least .02ISK of sense. HOLY COW. Now this was wisdom. OP needs to get out of this thread and leave the rest of GÇ£us LogiGÇÖsGÇ¥ out of his hair brain schemes. As for JohnGÇÖs suggestions, those need to be seriously taken to mind. One Amarr logi to another. We have to keep it dialed in if the CRU is going to hit the LZ.
Zatara Rought Imperfects 1690	Posted - 2013.11.18 09:06:00 - [242] - Quote Dear God. so much badposting. I don't know where to begin. I don't think logi's being relegated to sidearms is the answer. increased ttk, adding a 2nd equip to assaults and scouts while slightly increasing only scouts cpu/pg by say....10% and slightly nerfing logi's base hp are all better options. Personally in Competitive PC matches assault suits > logi's. I can't stretch this enough. Logi's are competitive with assaults...but per capita they win...increased ttk would be a passive nerf to logi's by making sidearms more relevant (currently with 2 damage mods on a prof 3 weapon you can pretty much down anyone without needing a sidearm) Just some thoughts I didn't want 2 delve 2 deeply. That's Master nader to you scrub. Skype me @ Zatara.Rought CCP's Motto: "SoonGäó"
rpastry Carbon 7 CRONOS. 65	Posted - 2013.11.18 11:12:00 - [243] - Quote problem isnt weaponry its the fact that with so many module slots and cpu/pg you can make a logi suit out-spec an assault for dps and ehp. plus carry more equipment on top of that. so, my alternative would be to nerf the logis module slots to be the same or less than the assault. my far out spec idea would be for all mediums suits to have the same basic stats and same total number of slots (hi+lo+wep+equip) then split as you see fit. basic = 6 slots adv= 8 proto =10 caveats - max 1 light, max 1 side.... max 3 hi/lo modules for basic, 4 for advanced, 5 for proto so you could run this advanced; 2hi 3lo 1light 2 equip = 8 or this; 1 hi 4lo 1 light 1side 1 equip = 8 but not this; 6lo 2light = 8 with these figures the most ehp/dps fit would be this proto; 4hi 5lo 1 light = 10 slots as game stands currently this is caldari proto logi; 5hi 4lo 1light 3 equip = 13 slots. compare to caldari assault; 4hi 3 lo 1 side 1 light 1 equip = 10 slots
Broonfondle Majikthies Bannana Boat Corp Relentless Heroes Alliance 436	Posted - 2013.11.18 11:22:00 - [244] - Quote Lets face it. You don't have a problem with logi's having a light weapon. There is nothing wrong with them having a; sniper rifle mass driver plasma cannon laser rifle or shotgun. It is the AR primarily that you have a problem with. Stop hating on the logi's cus of the minority of weapons. If the weapon was balanced and not the master of all situations then this issue would never be raised. As I said, the racial weapons and the AR being brought in line with them should be the answer. If CCP have balanced them right then there is no need to limit the logi End of. I'm sick and tired of these damned posts "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 221	Posted - 2013.11.18 11:36:00 - [245] - Quote Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: Lets face it. You don't have a problem with logi's having a light weapon. There is nothing wrong with them having a; sniper rifle mass driver plasma cannon laser rifle or shotgun. It is the AR primarily that you have a problem with. Stop hating on the logi's cus of the minority of weapons. If the weapon was balanced and not the master of all situations then this issue would never be raised. As I said, the racial weapons and the AR being brought in line with them should be the answer. If CCP have balanced them right then there is no need to limit the logi End of. I'm sick and tired of these damned posts Just wait till the Rifles hit the ground I have a strong feeling that the Gal AR won't be the major problem then...
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 221	Posted - 2013.11.18 11:44:00 - [246] - Quote rpastry wrote: problem isnt weaponry its the fact that with so many module slots and cpu/pg you can make a logi suit out-spec an assault for dps and ehp. plus carry more equipment on top of that. ... Thats not quite true as the Gallente Logi has exactly the same amount of High Slots so the Assault will be able to tank as much DPS as any logi. But its true any logi can outtank their assault counterparts but they still do not get a sidearm nor will they be as fast (regarding base speed) as assaults. And Logies cant outtank as assault while beeing faster. Logis can just specialize in more different ways. If its worth to tank a logi close to Heavy eHP is questionable as you could just spent a few SP into Heavy dropsuits grab a std Heavy slap in one Repairmodule (or two) and you would have more EHP, faster selfrep plus a sidearm. So by the eHP logic everyone must complain about heavies as they could be better assaults as well....
rpastry Carbon 7 CRONOS. 65	Posted - 2013.11.18 12:43:00 - [247] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: rpastry wrote: problem isnt weaponry its the fact that with so many module slots and cpu/pg you can make a logi suit out-spec an assault for dps and ehp. plus carry more equipment on top of that. ... Thats not quite true as the Gallente Logi has exactly the same amount of High Slots so the Assault will be able to tank as much DPS as any logi. But its true any logi can outtank their assault counterparts but they still do not get a sidearm nor will they be as fast (regarding base speed) as assaults. And Logies cant outtank as assault while beeing faster. Logis can just specialize in more different ways. If its worth to tank a logi close to Heavy eHP is questionable as you could just spent a few SP into Heavy dropsuits grab a std Heavy slap in one Repairmodule (or two) and you would have more EHP, faster selfrep plus a sidearm. So by the eHP logic everyone must complain about heavies as they could be better assaults as well.... Heavies are another argument, they're much slower and have a bigger hitbox, but do seem to be appearing with light weapons a lot more frequently.... need a different thread for that one. Gallante have same hi slots but more low slots, so they can both fit 3 dps mods (if they like) but the logi has 5 lows to put plates in and has a 5/sec repper as racial. It can also use lesser plates for the same result IE basic have much less movement penalty and CPU/PG need. maths off top of head mebbwe incorrect unadjusted for skills but; Logi 5 basic plates 180+425 hp 5% move penalty plus 5hps repper racial +4 compact hives (50 hp/s) 50cpu/5 pg Assault 3 Enhanced plates 210+345 hp 6% move penalty, 6.25hps complex repper +1 compact hive (50hp/s) 60cpu/18pg advantage logi.
Sgt Buttscratch R 0 N 1 N 1006	Posted - 2013.11.18 13:30:00 - [248] - Quote On my little logichick I have chosen the full support role, tried running just with a side arm, and it was kinda iffy at best. I run cal logi, started her when calogi were tearing up, just toshow that you can run full support even if slasying seems more realistic. The thing that stops the side arm being effective is the state of the game, I'll be following my Armored monkey around core focused/ beast mode, then all of a sudden either the opposite will learn how to attack a repped slayer, of grenade the ** out of me, usually they grenade the out of me. Now I have to get back to my special ed. friend to get the leash back on him, SMG's are great weapons, but at 40-50m an AR/SCR will pwn your ass. I am slow, due to be tanked up, also I'm running no dmg mods. Now if I have my ADV Scrambler, I can return to him with ease. My opinion on fixing the Logisics atm would be to fix the heavies, the scouts and the assault classes. Heavies need their weapons, more added, current ones brought up to par. If I run into a heavy 30m away, he should be a monster, beyond problematic. Commando - Needs a touch more speed, A 2nd grenade slot and the ability to use the active camoflage scout are getting(i think its scout only). There should also be a scout version of the commando, Using the current 'Black eagle' suit as the STD variant. Scouts - Scouts suits should have lower profile signature on the base suit, higher speed, fall damage reduced severly. A scout should be unseen until they want to be seen. I also believe active scanners should be a scout only equipment. As it is their job to infiltrate and gather intel on the enemy. Assault** - This is the biggest issue, they are underpowered for what they are meant to do. I'm not sure how to fix them, but maybe bonus' to damage, speed and maybe the usse of resistance may help them. I stick my weiner in two buns and and then give it the gas Sour cream from my spleen into Levi jeans
Kazeno Rannaa BIG BAD W0LVES 311	Posted - 2013.11.18 14:14:00 - [249] - Quote rpastry wrote: problem isnt weaponry its the fact that with so many module slots and cpu/pg you can make a logi suit out-spec an assault for dps and ehp. plus carry more equipment on top of that. so, my alternative would be to nerf the logis module slots to be the same or less than the assault. my far out spec idea would be for all mediums suits to have the same basic stats and same total number of slots (hi+lo+wep+equip) then split as you see fit. basic = 6 slots adv= 8 proto =10 caveats - max 1 light, max 1 side.... max 3 hi/lo modules for basic, 4 for advanced, 5 for proto so you could run this advanced; 2hi 3lo 1light 2 equip = 8 or this; 1 hi 4lo 1 light 1side 1 equip = 8 but not this; 6lo 2light = 8 with these figures the most ehp/dps fit would be this proto; 4hi 5lo 1 light = 10 slots as game stands currently this is caldari proto logi; 5hi 4lo 1light 3 equip = 13 slots. compare to caldari assault; 4hi 3 lo 1 side 1 light 1 equip = 10 slots Um, no. But it was an interesting suggestion. Again the issue is no the logi an dhow they are being used, rather the fact that we are still thinking that we are at a buffet when in reality DUST is a limited tasting menu. As soon as the chefs decide to open the restaurant for business and they give us the REAL menu, then these kind of ridiculous suggestions and conversations can begin to dwindle down and we can get some real work done.
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2160	Posted - 2013.11.18 14:20:00 - [250] - Quote KingBabar wrote: Npt this again. You're asking for a change that isn't nrrdrd at all. Do you have a proto ogi and a proto assault suit of the same race? If not, you're not really entitled to presenting this as an "enlightened suggestion". Everyone I've talked to that has both the Amar suits or bith the Caldari suits like I have, say that they're fine except for a few racial bonuses. Caldari logistics has by far the worst and should be changed. IMO giving the Logi an equipment fitting bonus and the assault class a general weaponry bonus would be enough. This only one sidearm slot sounds like a good idea for officer suits. THIS ! Cal logi is the worst as the outrageous amount of mod slots it offers, with the 3 equipment makes it a "do-it-all-in-one-fit" suit. Meaning you can run with sick high HP, tactical equipments and a killer weapon. Turning logistic back to a situation where they are support AND slightly less effective in combat (meaning, little less HP and proficiency with weapons) than their assault equivalent is easy : => Changing logi bonuses to equipment specific ones enhancing and emphasizing their logi efficiency : - % to cpu\pg consumption for equipment as the logi spec bonus. - Racial bonus enhancing equipments efficiency : +5% to hive clusters and resupply rate ; +5% to repair guns range and rep speed ; -5% to uplink spawn times etc... Many possibilities. Will make choosing a specific logi depend on what tactical aspect you want to be the best at for your team. => Changing assault bonuses : - An assault specialization bonus usefull to every faction : light damage weapon buff ? - Racial Bonuses tied to specific faction weaponry (not that far atm.) Final point, why do logi get more mod slots than assaults in the first place. The trade offs are simple : - No side-arm => more equipment slots - Less HP => More PG\CPU Where do the "more mod slots" part come from ? I'd rather see base HP of logistics buffed to be a lot closer to their assault equivalent and those extra mod slots, source of all evil (especially for Cals), taken out. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !

Blaze Ashra Ametat Security Amarr Empire 31	Posted - 2013.11.18 14:36:00 - [251] - Quote I don't like limiting people but, I'd agree to this if: You can't enter a vehicle without a CRU if you are not wearing a pilot suit and have the skills needed to operate it. Only logis and scouts have equipment. Sniper rifles and plasma cannons get reclassified as sidearms. Heavies get more than 2 exclusive weapons. Assaults and logi's switch high and low slots and stats and the PG/CPU adjusted so each can fit what they want.
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 714	Posted - 2013.11.18 14:46:00 - [252] - Quote As I've said before, the only real problem with the logis is the ability to forgo equipment and use their higher fitting capabilities to fit everything else to proto. There is no need to reduce their damage output. Do this and modify cpu/pg as needed. !
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1110	Posted - 2013.11.18 15:03:00 - [253] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" Then "True" Logis are bad. Good Logis know to kill the enemy before you rez/revive, and killing the enemy takes priority since you're not helping anyone dead or with an enemy shooting at you when you're rezzing. Why? Because DPS speed > Rez speed. See, this is kind of the issue with the whole sidearm argument. Would you rather have a guy that can fight along side you and run support, or a guy that can't really do anything unless you take damage, run out of ammo or go down? Dust is still a FPS (even though it doesn't feel like one at times) and we're all slayers first and class roles second. I disagree with your assertion that we are all "slayers first and class roles second". I only engage the enemy on their terms if I absolutely must. Otherwise, I will wait until their back is turned or they're hacking the objective I've boobytrapped or their attention is somewhere other than my direction before shooting them in the back. You seem to forget that (in the right hands) a Scrambler Pistol can be more deadly than any other weapon in the game, or that an SMG is capable of more DPS than any AR and is murderous in CQC. If you're worried that you AR squadmates will be outgunned by the enemy ARs, scan down the enemy and get a friendly sniper (forge or otherwise) to soften/thin the enemy formation. If they're in an interior space, drop hives and spam nades into it (charging in alongside your AR squadmates after the nades detonate). Logis aren't useless without Light weapons, you're just allowing yourself to be painted in a corner by the AR assaults who want this to be CoD: The Sci-Fi Flavored Edition. Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2165	Posted - 2013.11.18 15:04:00 - [254] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: As I've said before, the only real problem with the logis is the ability to forgo equipment and use their higher fitting capabilities to fit everything else to proto. There is no need to reduce their damage output. Do this and modify cpu/pg as needed. Then Assaults do more damage than any other class. Logis are best at using equipment. Heavies become better at tanking. I couldnt agree more with the things in the thread you linked. imo i should be the first thing to do balance wise before taking any further decisions regarding suits balance wise (aside from the mod slot orgy the cal logi represents). So yeah, if some of you havent checked the linked thread yet, do it. And again, regarding limiting logis to side arms only, it would be really bad and drive too many players away from the role that the BF would suddenly lack a lot of logis. And it would make the role unappealing to newer players. So imo it's a bad thing to do. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Deacon Obvious S.e.V.e.N. 21	Posted - 2013.11.18 15:11:00 - [255] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: First off, I do not Logi. Second, I think it would be a bad idea to take away the Logi self defense ablity. It's not the Logi being able to use a light weapon, it's the Logis that choose to stack DMG mods and maybe a few armour plates that are the problem(nyan san or whatever they are called...cough) Not make DMG mods have a really large stacking penalty and or make it so they draw even more CPU/PG. The guys that are skipping equipment and throwing only dmg mods on proto weapons are going to get real Logis nerfed(as they already did once) I can see making a type-2 suit and giving it two sidearm slots but I can not see taking away light weapons. I really feel this well be the best way to handle the "slayer Logi" without punishing actual logis. This is the path I hope all role-based dropsuit specializations will take eventually. If you've ever looked at hulls in EVE, there are a ton of bonuses and reductions to very specific pieces or classes of modules. You could see a mass migration of every-last-drop-of-damage Slayers to Assault with two suit attribute lines like. . . Logistics Suit : -30% Handheld Damage Module Efficacy Assault Suit: -30% Handheld Damage Module Fitting Cost People who want to kill fast will always find the most min/maxing way of doing so. If the developers want the best killing suit to be an Assault, all they have to do is make the numbers point that way.
Kazeno Rannaa BIG BAD W0LVES 312	Posted - 2013.11.18 15:14:00 - [256] - Quote Sgt Buttscratch wrote: On my little logichick I have chosen the full support role, tried running just with a side arm, and it was kinda iffy at best. I run cal logi, started her when calogi were tearing up, just toshow that you can run full support even if slasying seems more realistic. The thing that stops the side arm being effective is the state of the game, I'll be following my Armored monkey around core focused/ beast mode, then all of a sudden either the opposite will learn how to attack a repped slayer, or grenade the ** out of me, usually they grenade the out of me. Now I have to get back to my special ed. friend to get the leash back on him, SMG's are great weapons, but at 40-50m an AR/SCR will pwn your ass. I am slow, due to be tanked up, also I'm running no dmg mods. Now if I have my ADV Scrambler, I can return to him with ease. My opinion on fixing the Logisics atm would be to fix the heavies, the scouts and the assault classes. Heavies need their weapons, more added, current ones brought up to par. If I run into a heavy 30m away, he should be a monster, beyond problematic. Commando - Needs a touch more speed, A 2nd grenade slot and the ability to use the active camoflage scout are getting(i think its scout only). There should also be a scout version of the commando, Using the current 'Black eagle' suit as the STD variant. Scouts - Scouts suits should have lower profile signature on the base suit, higher speed, fall damage reduced severly. A scout should be unseen until they want to be seen. I also believe active scanners should be a scout only equipment. As it is their job to infiltrate and gather intel on the enemy. Assault** - This is the biggest issue, they are underpowered for what they are meant to do. I'm not sure how to fix them, but maybe bonus' to damage, speed and maybe the usse of resistance may help them. Currently the issues you raise are some of those that people are attempting to solve with these bantering of buff and nerf. The reality is without the full spectrum of gear available this will continue. Proto-assaults should have their second slots for equipment. Commandos should be a bit faster, but not as fast as an assault (i.e., 10% speed buff), and then again . The scouts though, if anything should receive a buff to their CPU/PG and have a second equipment slot at proto. This way their jobs as scouts and intel gatherers can begin to be realized while stretching their survivability. An infiltration class would be nice for the scouts outside of the proposed pilot suits (i.e., the ones that would get the active camo/cloak). But again these are suggestions based upon the fact that we are looking into the future with an incomplete visual spectrum - i.e., incomplete basic equipment and dropsuit variants. Though we may speculate all day, most of these suggestions are only band-aids on wounds that are bleeding out the patient. The real solutions to these issues are the introduction of more content (i.e., ALL RACES) which will ACTUALLY require balancing. In my understanding each content release should emulate what is done in EVE right now - i.e., every race gets something that is comparable. Updates with half-content releases will only continue to perpetuate this nonsense of half-baked solutions that are really no solution at all. Just my 0.02 ISK.
Kazeno Rannaa BIG BAD W0LVES 312	Posted - 2013.11.18 15:18:00 - [257] - Quote Blaze Ashra wrote: I don't like limiting people but, I'd agree to this if: You can't enter a vehicle without a CRU if you are not wearing a pilot suit and have the skills needed to operate it. Only logis and scouts have equipment. Sniper rifles and plasma cannons get reclassified as sidearms. Heavies get more than 2 exclusive weapons. Assaults and logi's switch high and low slots and stats and the PG/CPU adjusted so each can fit what they want. WHAT? At least on the Sniper and the PC being side arms. Are you HIGH???!!!???!!
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1251	Posted - 2013.11.18 15:19:00 - [258] - Quote The beautiful thing about role bonuses is that the will define the suits but will not constrain their use: a merc can choose to optimize around a suit's bonuses, focus on one bonus or ignore them completely as he sees fit. One thing i think we should think about is number of bonuses: the 1 bonus/2 bonus format for basic frames/racial frames is imported from EVE traditions, but there is nothing that dictates we can't have 3 or four bonuses per suit. It may be that multiple smaller bonuses may help to better define roles and provide room to grow into interesting sidegrade suit models. Imo the core bonus for logis would be equpment fitting/efficacy bonuses, while the core bonus for assault would be a weapons fitting/drawback rediction bonus(maybe a racial weapons fitting bonus). I'm thinking we already have more than enough damage amplification in this game. This would allow logis to run basically whatever equipment they thought best for the job, without paying a severe penalty in terms of their defense/offense. It would also allow them to leverage lower tier gear so they could effectively perform their role in most situations with an ISK efficiency in logistics that other suits could not attain. For the assaults, mercs could run higher tier weapons while maintaining their tank. The drawback bonus would serve to reduce any built-in drawbacks associated with light weapons/sidearms. Less kick, less dispersion, less heat, etc. Ignoring these bonuses wouldn't cripple a suit, and yet exploiting them would allow the suits to shine in their role. And this approach leaves the door open for interesting sidegrades that won't be OP. P.S. Cat Merc's idea of equipment amplifying native dropsuit abilities works very well with these role bonuses ;) I support SP rollover.
Kazeno Rannaa BIG BAD W0LVES 312	Posted - 2013.11.18 15:20:00 - [259] - Quote Deacon Obvious wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: First off, I do not Logi. Second, I think it would be a bad idea to take away the Logi self defense ablity. It's not the Logi being able to use a light weapon, it's the Logis that choose to stack DMG mods and maybe a few armour plates that are the problem(nyan san or whatever they are called...cough) Not make DMG mods have a really large stacking penalty and or make it so they draw even more CPU/PG. The guys that are skipping equipment and throwing only dmg mods on proto weapons are going to get real Logis nerfed(as they already did once) I can see making a type-2 suit and giving it two sidearm slots but I can not see taking away light weapons. I really feel this well be the best way to handle the "slayer Logi" without punishing actual logis. This is the path I hope all role-based dropsuit specializations will take eventually. If you've ever looked at hulls in EVE, there are a ton of bonuses and reductions to very specific pieces or classes of modules. You could see a mass migration of every-last-drop-of-damage Slayers to Assault with two suit attribute lines like. . . Logistics Suit : -30% Handheld Damage Module Efficacy Assault Suit: -30% Handheld Damage Module Fitting Cost People who want to kill fast will always find the most min/maxing way of doing so. If the developers want the best killing suit to be an Assault, all they have to do is make the numbers point that way. Again, those kind of numbers belong on Tech III hulls/dropsuits. We donGÇÖt even have all of the Tech I. It is uninteresting suggestion, but the timing of it seems out of place.
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2169	Posted - 2013.11.18 15:21:00 - [260] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: The beautiful thing about role bonuses is that the will define the suits but will not constrain their use: a merc can choose to optimize around a suit's bonuses, focus on one bonus or ignore them completely as he sees fit. Again, couldnt agree more. I really like the content of this thread. it's a balanced talk without that much "logis arent OP you noob !" or "logi OP CCP Sucks" interventions. So here's for the thoughts : What about "negative" bonuses ? Hummm actually.... it's called penalties Like raising the fitting cost of equipment for assault ? raising it for damage mods for logis ? for using a light weapon on a High slot ? Some could affect efficiency ? Combined to better "positive" bonuses, it could help emphasize roles and still allow for some freedom in fitting. You know, eve has some modules that you can only fit on 1/2 ships. It's not restricted, they just have crazy PG\CPU amounts and those ships have a -99% cpu consumption for those modules (extra-drone mod, stealth mod etc..) Everything is about perks and penalties. not about strict restrictions. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !

Corbina Ninja Maphia Clan Corporation 343	Posted - 2013.11.18 15:38:00 - [261] - Quote I do not think that removing the sidearm from the logi is good a CPU and PG buff for the assault would be a good start a little more base tank and finally bonuses that are really useful for an assault for example damage on primary weapons diversify dropsuit assault from the base such as: add more equipment for the base but leave cpu, pg and the tank unchanged I have both logi and Minmatar assault and the assault ... I only use it for AV and sidearm only fit > *Test Signature Please Ignore*
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 224	Posted - 2013.11.18 16:17:00 - [262] - Quote rpastry wrote: Heavies are another argument, they're much slower and have a bigger hitbox, but do seem to be appearing with light weapons a lot more frequently.... need a different thread for that one. Gallante have same hi slots but more low slots, so they can both fit 3 dps mods (if they like) but the logi has 5 lows to put plates in and has a 5/sec repper as racial. It can also use lesser plates for the same result IE basic have much less movement penalty and CPU/PG need. maths off top of head mebbwe incorrect unadjusted for skills but; Logi 5 basic plates 180(225 skilled)+425 = 605(650)armour 4.7/6.6m/s - 5% move penalty = 4.5/6.3 5hps racial repper +4 compact hives (50 hp/s) 90cpu/13 pg Assault 3 Enhanced plates 210(263 skilled)+345 = 555(608)armour 5/7m/s -6% move penalty = 4.7/6.6 6.25hps complex repper +1 compact hive (50hp/s) 115cpu/31pg advantage logi. Just to correct your numbers the Logi would have a base speed 0f 4,24 and the Assault would have 4,56. So the Assault would be faster (including higher strafe speed), would regenerate faster while on the move and has a sidearm that some of you value high enough to suggest this as the logis only weapon. IMHO advantage Assault. Compakt hives are nice but your are stational (=bad idea) while you regenerate through them and one flux destroy them easily.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 225	Posted - 2013.11.18 16:34:00 - [263] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Final point, why do logi get more mod slots than assaults in the first place. The trade offs are simple : - No side-arm => more equipment slots - Less HP => More PG\CPU Where do the "more mod slots" part come from ? I'd rather see base HP of logistics buffed to be a lot closer to their assault equivalent and those extra mod slots, source of all evil (especially for Cals), taken out. Your List is not complete: The Logi Tradeoffs are: Less Speed (base Speed/Starfe Speed and Sprintspeed) Less base HP Less Stamina Less Shieldrecharge No Sidearm For in general one Slot more 3 to 4 Equipment Slots and More CPU/PG
George Moros Area 514 183	Posted - 2013.11.18 18:44:00 - [264] - Quote For what it's worth, here's my opinion on some of the dozens of ideas posted in this thread... First of all, I've given the OP a like, although I'm more inclined to say "no" to logis without light weapons than "yes". I beleive the OP has best intentions and has provided good ideas and arguments. To all the people saying logis should be good at everything, otherwise you're "killing the sandbox", I say that's bull****. EVE is considered the ultimate sandbox game today. In EVE, can one fly a logistics or recon cruiser fitted as a heavy assault? Heavy assault as logistics? No, you can't. At least, not efficiently. Logis should be best at logistics. Everything else - decent to good, but far from best. To fix the logi suit, you need to fix the problem with it, and that's not their light weapon slot. It's their excessive available CPU/PG (excessive compared to assaults). Give them assault-like CPU/PG allotment (along with base HP), and a fixed role bonus to fitting equipment. Logis shouldn't be as fast as assaults in terms of movement/running speed. They should however, have assault-like stamina and stamina regen. In general, dropsuit bonuses should be more in line with their according factional preference. I agree that having a shield bonus on a Gallente dropsuit is ridiculous (and useless). Assaults should be given assault bonuses. 2% per level bonus to light weapons damage seems appropriate to me. That's one complex damage mod at proto level. Or, they could receive bonuses more inclined with their factional weapons. For instance, Minmatar could have a RoF bonus, Caldari optimal range bonus etc. Something along those lines. Assaults should lose their equipment slot. If logis aren't supposed to be good at everything, so too aren't the assaults. On the other hand, basic medium frames should retain their equipment slot - they should be "jack of all trades, master of none". Logis have enough equipment slots as it is. Pulvereus ergo queritor.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 173	Posted - 2013.11.18 21:33:00 - [265] - Quote This threadnaught is getting out of hand, I don't see much actual 'discussion' happening here anymore. Imho there is not too much left of the initial argument after everything that has been said here. Especially considering the whole reasoning presented so far for why all logis need the nerf hammer in the first place boils down to this: Logi Bro wrote: Eskel Bondfree wrote: Is there actually a convincing argument anywhere on this forum that all logi suits are in fact OP with respect to their racial assault variants? [...] Try using the dust fitting tool and seeing how much more powerful each logi suit is in comparison to its assault counterpart. Logi Bro wrote: Ask Cat Merc what he thinks of 'not being able to do everything at once,' because I'm pretty sure he did the math and found Gal logi can brick tank plus damage stack[...] Cat Merc wrote: [...] Gallente Logi beats the crap from the Gallente Assault, which leads me to believe the rest of the logis are similar. [...] I have a friend who is like me but Amarr. He reports the same results. I have a friend with Minmatar stuff, and he reports similar results. [...] I trust these people.
Blaze Ashra Ametat Security Amarr Empire 31	Posted - 2013.11.18 21:48:00 - [266] - Quote Kazeno Rannaa wrote: Blaze Ashra wrote: I don't like limiting people but, I'd agree to this if: You can't enter a vehicle without a CRU if you are not wearing a pilot suit and have the skills needed to operate it. Only logis and scouts have equipment. Sniper rifles and plasma cannons get reclassified as sidearms. Heavies get more than 2 exclusive weapons. Assaults and logi's switch high and low slots and stats and the PG/CPU adjusted so each can fit what they want. WHAT? At least on the Sniper and the PC being side arms. Are you HIGH???!!!???! EDIT: The reason I say this is because I am asking myself if you understand the the semantical association of the term GÇ£sidearmGÇ¥ to the imagery that has been established in this game? The two viable sidearms at the moment are scrambler pistol and SMG and we all know nearly everyone runs an smg already. Sniper riffles and plasma cannon would still be an option while keeping close quarters engagements in assaults favor assuming there's more than one. Or are logi's not allowed to kill at all? So all the heavies and hybrid tanked assaults that are there now since aimbot made that the default build should be able to **** on every yellow suit under every situation? Hell, we cant even kill a heavy with a shotgun before they have enough time to charge a forge, turn around and vaporize us. And you guys are expecting us to fight against an assault riffle with a SMG, Scrambler pistol, flaylock or nova knife? If we're already dead before we can turn to see our attacker and are to slow to get out of the way then all your really asking is for us to have signal flares to give away our position. Really that's just asking for free-er kills.


Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.