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[Discussion] The sidearm-only logi argument.

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Cosgar ParagonX 7847	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:32:00 - [31] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? Cosgar, that is your stupidest argument you ever made. Taking away a class's means to defend itself in a FPS isn't a stupid idea? If this was such a great idea, wouldn't a dev had responded to one of the 5938745073405 nerf logi topics before this? Hell, they could've done this when they nerfed the CaLogi. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 942	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:32:00 - [32] - Quote A good player will always recognize when there is an issue with their class of choice and try to recommend a fix. I for one applaud Logi Bro for trying to make this game better even though in doing so he will make it harder for himself. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 489	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:34:00 - [33] - Quote First reading through this thread I was skeptical, but as I read I liked pretty much everything you said! +1 Also the scout extra equipment slot is much needed, as well as more PG and CPU for scouts. *-Minmatar Scout-* *-Minmatar Logistics-* *-Mass Driver and Sniper Rifle Expert-*
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1088	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:35:00 - [34] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: A good player will always recognize when there is an issue with their class of choice and try to recommend a fix. I for one applaud Logi Bro for trying to make this game better even though in doing so he will make it harder for himself. I believe that Assault suits simply need more slots. But sidearms only? He is an idiot. Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 957	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:37:00 - [35] - Quote Only with a proper bonus on side arms, you are a logi not cannon fodder. Side arms are very effective but to force a logi to use only sidearms there should be more sidearms, the only 2 sidearms that can replace a light weapon are the scrambler pistol and the SMG. Why not a new proper weapon class? Logi weapons. "Just another piece of duct tape" Some love for gunners
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:39:00 - [36] - Quote Atiim wrote: Resulting to immature post editing I see? Again. Post a youtube video of you and an entire squad using nothing but sidearms. And remember that not everyone can afford to run PRO gear (even sidearms) 24/7. So make your squad use ONE STD or ADV sidearm. (Logistics only have 1 weapon slot, so you should only use one sidearm). If sidearms are so viable, then why don't we make Assaults use sidearms only? Because it's idiotic and unnecessary? Well so is the idea of forcing the Logistics class to use sidearms. Again, I'd love to see someone try to brick tank my Minmatar Logistics and have complex damage mods while still having enough CPU/PG for PRO equipment. Go on I'm waiting. A brick tanked, high DPS suit is an Assault. What was Cat Merc's equipment? If It wasn't ADV or PRO then I refuse to count that as being a medic. Therefore, Cat Merc had a good assault fit but a terrible medic fit. Also, what Logistics do you use? What tier? If you had read my any of my thread, you will have noticed that I said something along the lines of, "if you don't post a reasonable argument, then I will simply read your post as pwease don't take my crutch." Yes, I am very immature for making up a long thought-out argument and then get annoyed when you trolls show up to post literally nothing useful. But alright, I'll humor you. Why would I run a full squad of sidearms? I am proposing this nerf to a single suit, and ideally you would only have one or two logistics suits per squad, so you're point makes no real sense. Why don't assaults use sidearms only? Oh, gee, IDK, maybe it's because assault suits are specifically designed for combat, so they bring heavier weaponry to the field, and logistics suits are designed specifically support, so they carry a weapon as a second thought. Can't fit damage mods on a Minmatar suit with full PRO equipment? No ****. Logissaults don't use any equipment AT ALL. Your point is again null, and you miss the point entirely. I use Minmatar Logistics, I run full ADV equipment, ADV weaponry, and I annihilate the opposition like a hot knife through butter. The logistics suit is too self-sufficient. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1238	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:40:00 - [37] - Quote Why do you think logis being allowed a light weapon is a "crutch"? Marston VC, STB director
Adelia Lafayette DUST University Ivy League 434	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:42:00 - [38] - Quote why don't people just kill us when we are reloading? its not like we have a side arm or anything cept for the amarr.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 135	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:43:00 - [39] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: 1) Also, I'd like to throw out some stipulations before I make my own argument. First, Amarr logi's, in this situation, would receive a second sidearm slot. 2) Alright, so let me start with the implications. What would happen if every logi had to run a sidearm at this exact moment from now on? Well, I imagine that most logissaults would come to the forums to cry, and to be fair to them, it is a very drastic change, so a respec might be justified in this situation. (when I say respec, I mean specifically SP taken out of logi dropsuit command skills, and nothing else.) 1) Well, that's not really the same, is it? A sidearm is a sidearm and they are quite clearly not designed to be primary weapons: they are distinctly lacking in range which makes them substandard for anything but emergency or close in firefights, and even then you're still at a disadvantage overall. Having two of them is not a fair trade for Amarrian Logis. 2) Yes, because - as you talk about below - people run things how they want to run things. Running dual sidearms because you choose to is an entirely different thing to running a single sidearm only because you are forced to. Speaking as a Logibro, I could care less about K/DR tryhards, but this suggestions is a terrible idea for many reasons. Logi Bro wrote: All pure logistics players, on the other hand, would also likely come to the forums to complain that their light weapon skills are now useless to them, so a respec specifically in the light weapons tree would also be justified. The logistics class as a whole would become more vulnerable, but not actually useless, there are people that run dual sidearms despite having a light weapon slot because they WANT to, I imagine logi's will still be able to defend themselves in CQC. Outside of CQC, of course, they would be shooting practice, so logi's that currently run lone-wolf mode(myself included) would be encouraged to stick close to team-mates to keep them safe over long distance combat. So, you're suggesting that Logistics suits become easy prey at ranges exceeding 20 metres because some people abuse the slot layout for a minor gain? Why are we not buffing up Assault/Heavy/Scout suits again? The issue with Logistics suits is that they 'outshine' all the other classes and it's primarily due to slot layout and **** role bonuses: why don't we increase the Assaults to having the same number (with relevantly increased CPU/PG) and give them an actually useful (non-Racial) Role Bonus (since the Racial Role Bonuses are generally decent, but even they could do with a tweak.)? Logi Bro wrote: Overall, it means that logi's can still combat, but not as effectively as assault players. As for how it would be implemented, I would expect a few buffs to help the logi out with this extreme change. First, the maximum amount of equipment carried should be increased to five, so that Amarr/Caldari would get four slots at the proto tier, and Minmatar/Gallente would get five at proto. Obviously, this is strengthening the logistics role. Overall, it makes the logistics class more logisctic-y.[/quote] What it would mean is a Logi is relegated to being a pack mule and a battlefield **. The Logistics suit is not meant to be a live target for people to practice their skills on just because they've chosen to actually help the team!* Increasing the amount of slots would not make Logistics suits more appealing as a role when you reduce their offensive capabilities to next to naught: they would be brought out to lay down a plethora of equipment then immediately switched away from once their load was dropped. Logi Bro wrote: Assault suits would become more popular, because a large majority of assault players are currently residing in god-mode logistics suits. Heavy suits would come out of hiding if they thought there was a high chance that they would find a logi bro in most games, and scouts would be pretty much the same. I think removal of the assault suit's equipment slots would be appropriate, to make logistics player more needed on the battlefield, and it would be wise to increase the scout's equipment max to two so that nanohives don't become too rare. Logistics are not god-mode. They have an advantage over Assaults in the EHP department. It is small, but present. The fix is to rebalance - aka, buff - the Assault suits. Heavies would lament the dearth of true Logibros, since their little brothers would be essentially worthless in a firefight over 20 metres. Assaults would ***** that there aren't enough nanohives/links because Logistics are so niche. Scouts would love the second equipment slot and you'd likely see Scouts being brought out as precursors to assaults, laying down uplinks and then people would switch to Logistics when areas need thorough seeding with nanohives. Logistics would be so rare during actual combat because they would be nearly useless. Logi Bro wrote: Overall, I'd say the other classes would be happy not getting outperformed in every way by the logi. Yes. Which is why buffing them is the answer: Assaults: Increase number of slots (with relevant increase in CPU/PG) Increase base stats somewhat to further open the gap and remove the minimal EHP difference that way Alter the Role Bonus such that it is significant to the role (this is difficult because of the various styles Assaults fill; likely a damage mod following a widespread damage reduction, eg, 1% damage per level for light weapons, maybe light and sidearm weapons: ammo bonus could work, perhaps increased clip size and/or spare ammunition) A shake up of the entire bonus system to operate much more like EVE (ie, bonuses are tied to the dropsuit and based on different skills, rather than being tied directly to the skills themselves.)
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 835	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:44:00 - [40] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: . . Overall, it means that logi's can still combat, but not as effectively as assault players. . . Overall, it makes the logistics class more logisctic-y. . . AFAIK logistic suits are still supposed to be capable combat suits with only a slight balance shift from assaults. (Naturally that does not mean they should be better than assaults - tuning still needed.) If developers choose to change their previous vision on things, in this case logi role, then it's fine and good and I've got no complaints. Before that happens I'm against sidearm-onlying logis. Sidearm does give defensive capability but that's it - you really can't support any attack with it and supporting from behing the very first wave is close to impossible (no lasers, TACs, MDs, plasmas...) Note that I would like to see a following new 'sidearmy' suit type which could fill the role you are suggesting and also could live with sidearm due to mobility: Light Frame Flanking Engineer - that could complement current logi by creating a great hull for scanners and uplinks but with a price (scout frame, two EQ slots, only sidearm or two, fast movement) Feeling the scanner is too simple and off balance? The fix:

Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:46:00 - [41] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves. But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence? Your god mode is, as I keep saying, too self sufficient. Logi can't defend himself? That's a bad argument and you know it, if sidearms are so useless, why do they exist in the game in the first place? They are deadly, just less so than light weaponry. If you are running full proto equipment, I imagine that you are with a squad. Why is it that you are by yourself trying to fight the enemy in the scenario that you are depicting? More mod slots, more equipment, more CPU/PG, all at the expense of one sidearm. If sidearms are as useless as you depict them to be, then how is it balanced that logi's get all these extra bells and whistles at the loss of one measly little sidearm? Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:48:00 - [42] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Only with a proper bonus on side arms, you are a logi not cannon fodder. Side arms are very effective but to force a logi to use only sidearms there should be more sidearms, the only 2 sidearms that can replace a light weapon are the scrambler pistol and the SMG. Why not a new proper weapon class? Logi weapons. Like I said, I would expect CCP to release at least three more sidearms before any change like this. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Snaps Tremor DUST University Ivy League 398	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:49:00 - [43] - Quote The primary combat 'nerf' of a Logi suit is that they have to use one firearm to cover all eventualities, instead of two. The way Dust plays right now, with several light weapons able to effectively Do Everything and dominate the field, this is irrelevant. So the problem is less that having a primary-type weapon slot is overpowered, and more that there are still a few weapons in the game that make running with one gun a very mild disadvantage. To my mind, the sidearm slot idea is just a hacky fix to a bigger balance problem. But a hacky fix is better than no fix at all.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 943	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:49:00 - [44] - Quote Atiim wrote: I believe that Assault suits simply need more slots. But sidearms only? He is an idiot. The issue with that approach is that once you give the assaults more high/low slots you're also going to have to boost the slot count on heavies and scouts as well as all of those classes cpu/pg to make the slots useful. That is a lot more in the way of changes then just altering the logistics suit. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:49:00 - [45] - Quote Marston VC wrote: Why do you think logis being allowed a light weapon is a "crutch"? Not specifically the light weapon, but the light weapon combined with everything else. It is just a better assault without the sidearm. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1094	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:50:00 - [46] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Atiim wrote: Resulting to immature post editing I see? Again. Post a youtube video of you and an entire squad using nothing but sidearms. And remember that not everyone can afford to run PRO gear (even sidearms) 24/7. So make your squad use ONE STD or ADV sidearm. (Logistics only have 1 weapon slot, so you should only use one sidearm). If sidearms are so viable, then why don't we make Assaults use sidearms only? Because it's idiotic and unnecessary? Well so is the idea of forcing the Logistics class to use sidearms. Again, I'd love to see someone try to brick tank my Minmatar Logistics and have complex damage mods while still having enough CPU/PG for PRO equipment. Go on I'm waiting. A brick tanked, high DPS suit is an Assault. What was Cat Merc's equipment? If It wasn't ADV or PRO then I refuse to count that as being a medic. Therefore, Cat Merc had a good assault fit but a terrible medic fit. Also, what Logistics do you use? What tier? If you had read my any of my thread, you will have noticed that I said something along the lines of, "if you don't post a reasonable argument, then I will simply read your post as pwease don't take my crutch." Yes, I am very immature for making up a long thought-out argument and then get annoyed when you trolls show up to post literally nothing useful. But alright, I'll humor you. Why would I run a full squad of sidearms? I am proposing this nerf to a single suit, and ideally you would only have one or two logistics suits per squad, so you're point makes no real sense. Why don't assaults use sidearms only? Oh, gee, IDK, maybe it's because assault suits are specifically designed for combat, so they bring heavier weaponry to the field, and logistics suits are designed specifically support, so they carry a weapon as a second thought. Can't fit damage mods on a Minmatar suit with full PRO equipment? No ****. Logissaults don't use any equipment AT ALL. Your point is again null, and you miss the point entirely. I use Minmatar Logistics, I run full ADV equipment, ADV weaponry, and I annihilate the opposition like a hot knife through butter. The logistics suit is too self-sufficient. I'm telling you to run a full squad with nothing but one sidearm because you seem to be under the illusion that having only 1 sidearm makes you combat effective. If you don't use your equipment at all, then you are an assault. You are not a medic so you are not fulfilling two roles at the same time. Your point about logistics being able to fulfill multiple roles at the same time in null and void. Not every logistics was designed specifically for support. Just look at the Amarr logistics. Just give Assaults more slots. The sidearm only idea is utterly ridiculous. Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 19	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:50:00 - [47] - Quote Atiim wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: A good player will always recognize when there is an issue with their class of choice and try to recommend a fix. I for one applaud Logi Bro for trying to make this game better even though in doing so he will make it harder for himself. I believe that Assault suits simply need more slots. But sidearms only? He is an idiot. Just fix the assault suit bonus some more slots and higher cpu pg than you can leave the logi alone everyone is happy. I hate that something i have put skill points in gets nerfed because something someone else uses is not as good more buffs less nerfs. The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu
Paran Tadec Imperfect Bastards 1660	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:51:00 - [48] - Quote Only after you remove equipment slots from all of the non-logi suits. This is stupid. Remove 10% buff from all hitscan weapons, and put a 2% dmg bonus per level on assualt suits. ITS A FREE COMPLEX DAMAGE MOD. Bittervet Proficiency V thanks logibro!
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1094	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:53:00 - [49] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Atiim wrote: I believe that Assault suits simply need more slots. But sidearms only? He is an idiot. The issue with that approach is that once you give the assaults more high/low slots you're also going to have to boost the slot count on heavies and scouts as well as all of those classes cpu/pg to make the slots useful. That is a lot more in the way of changes then just altering the logistics suit. But the change would be benifical to all classes, as opposed to making one class useless for anything other than healing and resupplying others. That is why we should just give the other suits more slots and CPU/PG. Scouts? They already needed more slots and CPU/PG to being with. Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 460	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:54:00 - [50] - Quote Atiim wrote: The logistics class if fine where it is. Sure it can preform the tasks of all roles, but it can't do so at the same time . Heh. Atiim wrote: And why does everyone assume that logistics should only be in the back repping and resupplying everyone. I don't think too many believe that. Me in my SMG certainly don't and we both got a second opinion from Mr.Scrambler Atiim wrote: Run with literally nothing but ONE sidearms for 2 weeks and see how well you perform. Pretty well actually. It's not like they shoot pebbles or something. Your not going to be running out of ammo either soooo... Seeing as how I only use a side arm anyhow, loosing the ability to use a light weapon wouldn't affect me at all. As I see it, that'd help with all the rage over logisaults too. Doubt many would use them for slaying if they couldn't have their precious Duvs or whatever the big thing now is. Damn Imperials! Dust 514 belongs to the ARs!

DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7685	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:55:00 - [51] - Quote I actually wish I had proto SMG instead of HMG, since it performs better than the HMG in most cases Story / Vids / OSG
Commander Marquess 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 56	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:55:00 - [52] - Quote I believe, if this idea were ever implemented, instead of giving the amarr Logi 2 sidearms that it should instead be given 1 light weapon slot and no sidearm. This way it would live up to its description of a combat oriented Logistics. Amarr logistic Description " the Amarr variant is a durable, Combat-Focused suit that provides Above-Average protection, allowing logistics units to operate in the middle of a firefight, actively dispersing aid and support as needed while simultaneously engaging the enemy and inflicting trauma of its own." >"You want to fuck with the Eagles, you have to learn to fly." `- Heather Chandler`
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 943	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:56:00 - [53] - Quote Atiim wrote: Scouts? They already needed more slots and CPU/PG to being with. I certainly can't disagree with you on that matter. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Tectonic Fusion 578	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:59:00 - [54] - Quote Atiim wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: A good player will always recognize when there is an issue with their class of choice and try to recommend a fix. I for one applaud Logi Bro for trying to make this game better even though in doing so he will make it harder for himself. I believe that Assault suits simply need more slots. But sidearms only? He is an idiot. Yeah... But an assault with OCD would go crazy if they have perfect fit with ONE slot empty if they got more slots. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:00:00 - [55] - Quote Atiim wrote: I'm telling you to run a full squad with nothing but one sidearm because you seem to be under the illusion that having only 1 sidearm makes you combat effective. If you don't use your equipment at all, then you are an assault. You are not a medic so you are not fulfilling two roles at the same time. Your point about logistics being able to fulfill multiple roles at the same time in null and void. Not every logistics was designed specifically for support. Just look at the Amarr logistics. Just give Assaults more slots. The sidearm only idea is utterly ridiculous. I started with a very very long response to this but gave up, you aren't seeing the same picture that I am. Let me just say that running the logi without the equipment is the entire reason this is a problem. Obviously they are not running logistics if you call them logissaults. Making it required to fit all the equipment slots would simply make it so people would fill all the slots with basic nanite injectors, it fills the parameters, and uses a measly amount of CPU/PG. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Cosgar ParagonX 7852	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:00:00 - [56] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves. But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence? Your god mode is, as I keep saying, too self sufficient. Logi can't defend himself? That's a bad argument and you know it, if sidearms are so useless, why do they exist in the game in the first place? They are deadly, just less so than light weaponry. If you are running full proto equipment, I imagine that you are with a squad. Why is it that you are by yourself trying to fight the enemy in the scenario that you are depicting? More mod slots, more equipment, more CPU/PG, all at the expense of one sidearm. If sidearms are as useless as you depict them to be, then how is it balanced that logi's get all these extra bells and whistles at the loss of one measly little sidearm? Never said sidearms are useless. Hell, most of them are good enough to be primaries. I even run a sidearm from time to time when I need the extra CPU/PG for that extra triage hive in a domination match, or a fit to lay out a field of proximity mines. But should I have to all the time just because I can? I use mass drivers to disorient reds for my squad/team a TAC AR to pick off any would be flankers, and a standard AR when the above two aren't viable. Limiting the logistics (or any class for that matter) takes away the principle of versatility this game was supposed to offer. Ask any heavy if they like being shoved into their new role of point defense for example. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 1663	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:01:00 - [57] - Quote I am an amarr logi. I dislike this idea. I dislike this idea because having both a sidearm and a light weapon is my suits defining feature. My suit gives up extra equipment slots to have a sidearm and a light weapon. Restricting my suit to side arms would be (IMO) the death of the amarr logi. "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle I'll take your Iskies
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:02:00 - [58] - Quote Commander Marquess wrote: I believe, if this idea were ever implemented, instead of giving the amarr Logi 2 sidearms that it should instead be given 1 light weapon slot and no sidearm. This way it would live up to its description of a combat oriented Logistics. Amarr logistic Description " the Amarr variant is a durable, Combat-Focused suit that provides Above-Average protection, allowing logistics units to operate in the middle of a firefight, actively dispersing aid and support as needed while simultaneously engaging the enemy and inflicting trauma of its own." I can relent to this, it seems like a fair enough argument. I'll make edits in the OP. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 959	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:05:00 - [59] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: shaman oga wrote: Only with a proper bonus on side arms, you are a logi not cannon fodder. Side arms are very effective but to force a logi to use only sidearms there should be more sidearms, the only 2 sidearms that can replace a light weapon are the scrambler pistol and the SMG. Why not a new proper weapon class? Logi weapons. Like I said, I would expect CCP to release at least three more sidearms before any change like this. Probably a new class of weapons made appositely for logi would solve the problem. Something between light weapons and sidearms. The problem is that logistic suit is a derivation of the medium frame suit, medium frame have the ability to carry light weapons, lose that ability in an higher tier class of suits is not logic. A new class of weapons specifically designed for logi would solve both the logic and gameplay problem. You can explain it by saying that the suit systems are not designed to carry light weapons but only logi weapons and sidearms. Of course assaults will be able to carry light, logi and sidearms weapons (logi weapons should use light weapon slot). "Just another piece of duct tape" Some love for gunners
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 170	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:09:00 - [60] - Quote This is not a good idea. What you suggest in the OP would be interesting as an additional specialization of the medium frame suits, but absolutely not as a substitute for the current logi suits. Here are the problems I'm seeing: You are forcing every player to make a decision between being useful in combat, or using equipment as a support character (you wrote it yourself, logis will be useless except for self defense in close combat). As cosgar pointed out, this is the opposite of the idea behind Dust and the fitting system. It limits the possibilities of how you can play this game, and with that it limits the fun you can have with the game and its long term motivation. Running side arms only is simply boring. There are two weapon classes available: pistols and SMGs. This is an FPS, people want to play with all sorts of different weapons, so don't take the weapons away from them. If you do, you also take away the fun (see above). The entire concept of the Amarr logi would be nullified and the suit would have to be redone completely. A second side arm does not help at all in combat if you can't engage the enemy with a proper weapon to begin with. Except if you allowed dual wielding, which would be a balancing nightmare for CCP and is very unlikely to happen. Also, I have some question: Why do you think that the ability to use a decent weapon is the reason for logi suits appearing OP? Imho, the problem is their ability to equip more modules than any assault suit. Did you ever consider another suggestion that has been around at least as long as the side arm only idea: a role bonuse for logi suits that grants massive reduction to CPU/PG costs of equipment, and a reduction of overall CPU/PG of all logi suits? Why go ahead and risk a brutal overnerf of a whole play style instead of fixing the obvious problems first? Everyone can see that the boni for assault and logi suits are not appropriate and that the 5 HP/s armor repair for logis is a combat advantage they clearly shouldn't have. This has to be fixed first, then the balance between logi and assault needs to be reevaluated. This is especially true for the Gallente logi and assault. Is there actually a convincing argument anywhere on this forum that all logi suits are in fact OP with respect to their racial assault variants? Since CCP nerfed logi suits and changed the bonus of the Caldari logi, I see people complaining about the Gallente logi exclusively. Imho this is because the Gallente assault sucks and has not a single bonus to armor tanking, which creates a massive imbalance between Gallente logi (getting a free complex armor repper) and assault suit.



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