Problem number 2, which is "How this idea is built on a false premise and will destroy the logistics class"

TechMechMeds suggested sidearms only a month or so ago, and I talked him out of it. My argument is this. He, like probably the rest of you who actually play logistics and think this is a good idea (people who don't play logistics are not qualified to comment here, sorry) likely base it on the fact that you run sidearm only (probably SMG, maybe some ScP) and still kill a lot of people...
IN YOUR PROTO SUIT WITH AN ISHUKONE SMG (and probably proficiency 5).

So, are you going to give away a free no skill requirement ishukone SMG with every basic logi suit? No? Well, guess what, nobody will ever decide to play logistics again. Even if a lot of us don't just abandon the class, it will die a slow death of attrition because nobody in their right mind will go into it!

Why? Picture yourself as a new player. One hour after you make your toon, you are done with the academy and start getting protostomped. Relentlessly. In a way that none of us that started in beta can identify with because there just weren't as many proto players.

Obviously their train of thought will be exactly like this: Boy, I sure do love getting crushed every single battle I play. Nothing beats going 1/12 with 75 WP! If only I could make this experience better somehow.... *slaps forehead* OF COURSE! I can limit myself to just a sidearm! Running around in a STD logi suit with my militia SMG will make me so OP! Good thing I have a toxin BPO to make it a little easier... Oh shoot, they don't offer those anymore. Oh well.

No one in their right mind will decide to become a logi! Hooray, we fixed Dust! Everyone has a gallente assault suit and an AR now. Man this is paradise. That's funny, I don't remember running out of ammo so easily before. Weird.

Lets face it. You don't have a problem with logi's having a light weapon.

There is nothing wrong with them having a;
sniper rifle
mass driver
plasma cannon
laser rifle
or shotgun.

It is the AR primarily that you have a problem with. Stop hating on the logi's cus of the minority of weapons. If the weapon was balanced and not the master of all situations then this issue would never be raised.
As I said, the racial weapons and the AR being brought in line with them should be the answer. If CCP have balanced them right then there is no need to limit the logi

End of. I'm sick and tired of these damned posts

problem isnt weaponry its the fact that with so many module slots and cpu/pg you can make a logi suit out-spec an assault for dps and ehp. plus carry more equipment on top of that.
...

Thats not quite true as the Gallente Logi has exactly the same amount of High Slots so the Assault will be able to tank as much DPS as any logi.

But its true any logi can outtank their assault counterparts but they still do not get a sidearm nor will they be as fast (regarding base speed) as assaults. And Logies cant outtank as assault while beeing faster. Logis can just specialize in more different ways.

If its worth to tank a logi close to Heavy eHP is questionable as you could just spent a few SP into Heavy dropsuits grab a std Heavy slap in one Repairmodule (or two) and you would have more EHP, faster selfrep plus a sidearm.

So by the eHP logic everyone must complain about heavies as they could be better assaults as well....

problem isnt weaponry its the fact that with so many module slots and cpu/pg you can make a logi suit out-spec an assault for dps and ehp. plus carry more equipment on top of that.

so, my alternative would be to nerf the logis module slots to be the same or less than the assault.




my far out spec idea would be for all mediums suits to have the same basic stats and same *total* number of slots (hi+lo+wep+equip) then split as you see fit.

basic = 6 slots adv= 8 proto =10

caveats - max 1 light, max 1 side.... max 3 hi/lo modules for basic, 4 for advanced, 5 for proto

so you could run this advanced;

2hi 3lo 1light 2 equip = 8

or this;

1 hi 4lo 1 light 1side 1 equip = 8

but not this;

6lo 2light = 8

with these figures the most ehp/dps fit would be this proto;

4hi 5lo 1 light = 10 slots

as game stands currently this is caldari proto logi;

5hi 4lo 1light 3 equip = 13 slots.

compare to caldari assault;

4hi 3 lo 1 side 1 light 1 equip = 10 slots

Npt this again.

You're asking for a change that isn't nrrdrd at all.

Do you have a proto ogi and a proto assault suit of the same race?

If not, you're not really entitled to presenting this as an "enlightened suggestion". Everyone I've talked to that has both the Amar suits or bith the Caldari suits like I have, say that they're fine except for a few racial bonuses. Caldari logistics has by far the worst and should be changed.

IMO giving the Logi an equipment fitting bonus and the assault class a general weaponry bonus would be enough.

This only one sidearm slot sounds like a good idea for officer suits.

See, this is kind of the issue with the whole sidearm argument. Would you rather have a guy that can fight along side you and run support, or a guy that can't really do anything unless you take damage, run out of ammo or go down? Dust is still a FPS (even though it doesn't feel like one at times) and we're all slayers first and class roles second.

As I've said before, the only real problem with the logis is the ability to forgo equipment and use their higher fitting capabilities to fit everything else to proto. There is no need to reduce their damage output.

Do this and modify cpu/pg as needed.

Then

Assaults do more damage than any other class.
Logis are best at using equipment.
Heavies become better at tanking.

I really feel this well be the best way to handle the "slayer Logi" without punishing actual logis.

On my little logichick I have chosen the full support role, tried running just with a side arm, and it was kinda iffy at best.
I run cal logi, started her when calogi were tearing up, just toshow that you can run full support even if slasying seems more realistic. The thing that stops the side arm being effective is the state of the game, I'll be following my Armored monkey around core focused/ beast mode, then all of a sudden either the opposite will learn how to attack a repped slayer, or grenade the **** out of me, usually they grenade the **** out of me. Now I have to get back to my special ed. friend to get the leash back on him, SMG's are great weapons, but at 40-50m an AR/SCR will pwn your ass. I am slow, due to be tanked up, also I'm running no dmg mods. Now if I have my ADV Scrambler, I can return to him with ease.

My opinion on fixing the Logisics atm would be to fix the heavies, the scouts and the assault classes.
Heavies need their weapons, more added, current ones brought up to par. If I run into a heavy 30m away, he should be a monster, beyond problematic.

Commando - Needs a touch more speed, A 2nd grenade slot and the ability to use the active camoflage scout are getting(i think its scout only). There should also be a scout version of the commando, Using the current 'Black eagle' suit as the STD variant.

Scouts - Scouts suits should have lower profile signature on the base suit, higher speed, fall damage reduced severly. A scout should be unseen until they want to be seen. I also believe active scanners should be a scout only equipment. As it is their job to infiltrate and gather intel on the enemy.

Assault - This is the biggest issue, they are underpowered for what they are meant to do. I'm not sure how to fix them, but maybe bonus' to damage, speed and maybe the usse of resistance may help them.

I don't like limiting people but, I'd agree to this if:

You can't enter a vehicle without a CRU if you are not wearing a pilot suit and have the skills needed to operate it.
Only logis and scouts have equipment.
Sniper rifles and plasma cannons get reclassified as sidearms.
Heavies get more than 2 exclusive weapons.
Assaults and logi's switch high and low slots and stats and the PG/CPU adjusted so each can fit what they want.

This is the path I hope all role-based dropsuit specializations will take eventually. If you've ever looked at hulls in EVE, there are a ton of bonuses and reductions to very specific pieces or classes of modules. You could see a mass migration of every-last-drop-of-damage Slayers to Assault with two suit attribute lines like. . .

Logistics Suit : -30% Handheld Damage Module Efficacy

Assault Suit: -30% Handheld Damage Module Fitting Cost

People who want to kill fast will always find the most min/maxing way of doing so. If the developers want the best killing suit to be an Assault, all they have to do is make the numbers point that way.

The beautiful thing about role bonuses is that the will define the suits but will not constrain their use: a merc can choose to optimize around a suit's bonuses, focus on one bonus or ignore them completely as he sees fit.

Heavies are another argument, they're much slower and have a bigger hitbox, but do seem to be appearing with light weapons a lot more frequently.... need a different thread for that one.

Gallante have same hi slots but more low slots, so they can both fit 3 dps mods (if they like) but the logi has 5 lows to put plates in and has a 5/sec repper as racial. It can also use lesser plates for the same result IE basic have much less movement penalty and CPU/PG need. maths off top of head mebbwe incorrect unadjusted for skills but;

Logi
5 basic plates 180(225 skilled)+425 = 605(650)armour

4.7/6.6m/s - 5% move penalty = 4.5/6.3

5hps racial repper +4 compact hives (50 hp/s)

90cpu/13 pg

Assault
3 Enhanced plates 210(263 skilled)+345 = 555(608)armour

5/7m/s -6% move penalty = 4.7/6.6

6.25hps complex repper +1 compact hive (50hp/s)

115cpu/31pg

advantage logi.

Final point, why do logi get more mod slots than assaults in the first place. The trade offs are simple :
- No side-arm => more equipment slots
- Less HP => More PG\CPU

Where do the "more mod slots" part come from ? I'd rather see base HP of logistics buffed to be a lot closer to their assault equivalent and those extra mod slots, source of all evil (especially for Cals), taken out.

Ask Cat Merc what he thinks of 'not being able to do everything at once,' because I'm pretty sure he did the math and found Gal logi can brick tank plus damage stack[...]

[...]
Gallente Logi beats the crap from the Gallente Assault, which leads me to believe the rest of the logis are similar.
[...]
I have a friend who is like me but Amarr.
He reports the same results.
I have a friend with Minmatar stuff, and he reports similar results.
[...]
I trust these people.

WHAT? At least on the Sniper and the PC being side arms. Are you HIGH???!!!???!

EDIT: The reason I say this is because I am asking myself if you understand the the semantical association of the term GÇ£sidearmGÇ¥ to the imagery that has been established in this game?