DUST Search - [Discussion] The sidearm-only logi argument.

Eskel Bondfree wrote:

This is not a good idea. What you suggest in the OP would be interesting as an additional specialization of the medium frame suits, but absolutely not as a substitute for the current logi suits.

Here are the problems I'm seeing:

You are forcing every player to make a decision between being useful in combat, or using equipment as a support character (you wrote it yourself, logis will be useless except for self defense in close combat). As cosgar pointed out, this is the opposite of the idea behind Dust and the fitting system. It limits the possibilities of how you can play this game, and with that it limits the fun you can have with the game and its long term motivation.

As I believe we have already established, sidearms do not make you useless in combat, just less useful than light weapons. It just so happens that the sidearms we have now are close range, so at the moment that would be all they would be useful for.

Running side arms only is simply boring. There are two weapon classes available: pistols and SMGs. This is an FPS, people want to play with all sorts of different weapons, so don't take the weapons away from them. If you do, you also take away the fun (see above).

As I stated in the thread (I can see you skimmed lightly) I would expect CCP to release more sidearms before anything like this would happen. This would mean more choices.

The entire concept of the Amarr logi would be nullified and the suit would have to be redone completely. A second side arm does not help at all in combat if you can't engage the enemy with a proper weapon to begin with. Except if you allowed dual wielding, which would be a balancing nightmare for CCP and is very unlikely to happen.

A second sidearm is actually VERY powerful, especially on a suit that only carries one weapon to begin with.

Also, I have some question:

Why do you think that the ability to use a decent weapon is the reason for logi suits appearing OP? Imho, the problem is their ability to equip more modules than any assault suit. Did you ever consider another suggestion that has been around at least as long as the side arm only idea: a role bonuse for logi suits that grants massive reduction to CPU/PG costs of equipment, and a reduction of overall CPU/PG of all logi suits?

The change you are proposing leaves logi's with no CPU/PG to fill their slots. Assault suits already have issues filling their slots, if logi suits had the same PG/CPU, but also had more module space and had to fill up equipment slots, how would that in any way be more balanced?

Why go ahead and risk a brutal overnerf of a whole play style instead of fixing the obvious problems first? Everyone can see that the boni for assault and logi suits are not appropriate and that the 5 HP/s armor repair for logis is a combat advantage they clearly shouldn't have. This has to be fixed first, then the balance between logi and assault needs to be reevaluated. This is especially true for the Gallente logi and assault.

I've already advocated to fix basic issues. I've had threads with far more thought put into them and far more constructive feedback from the community, and a dev never even so much as said, "we're no going to do that." It just died off with no acknowledgement whatsoever. Since CCP is either unwilling or unable to make basic changes, and a logi nerf seems to be on the horizon, I am making a recommendation that would hurt logi's the least.

Is there actually a convincing argument anywhere on this forum that all logi suits are in fact OP with respect to their racial assault variants? Since CCP nerfed logi suits and changed the bonus of the Caldari logi, I see people complaining about the Gallente logi exclusively. Imho this is because the Gallente assault sucks and has not a single bonus to armor tanking, which creates a massive imbalance between Gallente logi (getting a free complex armor repper) and assault suit.

Try using the dust fitting tool and seeing how much more powerful each logi suit is in comparison to its assault counterpart.


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Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2325	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:03:00 - [1] - Quote Let me preface this thread by saying I want to discuss this idea, how it would affect the logi class, how it would be implemented, etc. If you disagree with the argument, I would urge you to explain why, because if you simply write, "lol this is a bad idea," then I will simply read it as, "pwease don't take away my crutch!" Also, I'd like to throw out some stipulations before I make my own argument. First, Amarr logi's, in this situation, would receive a second sidearm slot. Second, I would not expect CCP to implement this idea until there have been AT LEAST three more sidearms released for us to use, so that not every logi is running a Winmatar SMG. Alright, so let me start with the implications. What would happen if every logi had to run a sidearm at this exact moment from now on? Well, I imagine that most logissaults would come to the forums to cry, and to be fair to them, it is a very drastic change, so a respec might be justified in this situation. (when I say respec, I mean specifically SP taken out of logi dropsuit command skills, and nothing else.) All pure logistics players, on the other hand, would also likely come to the forums to complain that their light weapon skills are now useless to them, so a respec specifically in the light weapons tree would also be justified. The logistics class as a whole would become more vulnerable, but not actually useless, there are people that run dual sidearms despite having a light weapon slot because they WANT to, I imagine logi's will still be able to defend themselves in CQC. Outside of CQC, of course, they would be shooting practice, so logi's that currently run lone-wolf mode(myself included) would be encouraged to stick close to team-mates to keep them safe over long distance combat. Overall, it means that logi's can still combat, but not as effectively as assault players. As for how it would be implemented, I would expect a few buffs to help the logi out with this extreme change. First, the maximum amount of equipment carried should be increased to five, so that Amarr/Caldari would get four slots at the proto tier, and Minmatar/Gallente would get five at proto. Obviously, this is strengthening the logistics role. Second, logi speed should be buffed to be exactly at level with assault, currently logi speed is about 5% below assault. This would allow logi's to keep pace with their assault brethren, so that they don't get left in the dust trying to keep up with a group. Lastly, stamina and stamina regeneration would be buffed to an area somewhere between assaults and scouts. Logistics suits will need to be mobile to cope with the new change, and this will help tremendously. Overall, it makes the logistics class more logisctic-y. So let's talk about the other classes and how they might be affected by this difference. Assault suits would become more popular, because a large majority of assault players are currently residing in god-mode logistics suits. Heavy suits would come out of hiding if they thought there was a high chance that they would find a logi bro in most games, and scouts would be pretty much the same. I think removal of the assault suit's equipment slots would be appropriate, to make logistics player more needed on the battlefield, and it would be wise to increase the scout's equipment max to two so that nanohives don't become too rare. Overall, I'd say the other classes would be happy not getting outperformed in every way by the logi. My TL;DR: Yes, I am advocating that the logistics class should get only a sidearm. If you didn't read the thread and just scrolled down here to get a quick version, then suck it up and read the rest of my post. Constructive criticism is welcomed if you actually have a reasonable argument, like I said before, don't give me a "lolno," because it makes you look like a crutch-using tool. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2325	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:03:00 - [2] - Quote [Reserved] Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2325	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:12:00 - [3] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: Why not a damage De-buff OR this Make a deal... give us Base 40-50% equipment PG/CPU reduction and 5% per level after that and I'll take the PG and CPU of an assault Then Gals get .5HP/s Regen Amarr get some bonus to base armor HP +5% per level Cals get something to increase base shield HP Minnies get something to help base speed And we change the assault general bonus of 5% per level fitting light weapons AND sidearms and possibly a inherent +5% increase to damage with the loss of an equipment slot Gals get .5HP/s Regen Amarr get some bonus to base armor HP +5% per level Cals get something to increase base shield HP Minnies get something to help base speed BUT THEY just repeated the same bonuses again, yep it's what they need treat the medium suits the same so nobody bitches about unfairesss or in equality Problem is, with the CPU/PG of an assault plus using equipment, you would never be able to fill out all of those module slots, which kind of makes one of the huge pros of being logistics null. I like the inherent +5% to damage on assault suits, though. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2325	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:16:00 - [4] - Quote Atiim wrote: Pwease don't take away my crutch I never at any point said logi's need to be at the back repping. I have used sidearms and they are far more powerful that people give them credit for, logi's would in no way be useless in combat. Ask Cat Merc what he thinks of 'not being able to do everything at once,' because I'm pretty sure he did the math and found Gal logi can brick tank plus damage stack, that's doing two things at once that the assault could only do one at a time. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2329	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:20:00 - [5] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2329	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:24:00 - [6] - Quote skippy678 wrote: just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. ....do you have the ability to read? Try again, and look at my name, and then tell me that I am talking about a different class. (Psst here's a hint, I AM a logi) Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2330	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:29:00 - [7] - Quote skippy678 wrote: Logi Bro wrote: skippy678 wrote: just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. ....do you have the ability to read? Try again, and look at my name, and then tell me that I am talking about a different class. (Psst here's a hint, I AM a logi) Your name dosent make you a Logi.....the fact that you are trying to nerf your own suit means your an idiot or lying. end of my conversation here troll As you are obviously the troll, I can be certain that you will, in fact, come back to make more useless posting. I am trying to nerf my own class because I know for a fact that it will be nerfed anyways, I am simply trying to recommend the nerf that I think would hurt the class the least. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:39:00 - [8] - Quote Atiim wrote: Resulting to immature post editing I see? Again. Post a youtube video of you and an entire squad using nothing but sidearms. And remember that not everyone can afford to run PRO gear (even sidearms) 24/7. So make your squad use ONE STD or ADV sidearm. (Logistics only have 1 weapon slot, so you should only use one sidearm). If sidearms are so viable, then why don't we make Assaults use sidearms only? Because it's idiotic and unnecessary? Well so is the idea of forcing the Logistics class to use sidearms. Again, I'd love to see someone try to brick tank my Minmatar Logistics and have complex damage mods while still having enough CPU/PG for PRO equipment. Go on I'm waiting. A brick tanked, high DPS suit is an Assault. What was Cat Merc's equipment? If It wasn't ADV or PRO then I refuse to count that as being a medic. Therefore, Cat Merc had a good assault fit but a terrible medic fit. Also, what Logistics do you use? What tier? If you had read my any of my thread, you will have noticed that I said something along the lines of, "if you don't post a reasonable argument, then I will simply read your post as pwease don't take my crutch." Yes, I am very immature for making up a long thought-out argument and then get annoyed when you trolls show up to post literally nothing useful. But alright, I'll humor you. Why would I run a full squad of sidearms? I am proposing this nerf to a single suit, and ideally you would only have one or two logistics suits per squad, so you're point makes no real sense. Why don't assaults use sidearms only? Oh, gee, IDK, maybe it's because assault suits are specifically designed for combat, so they bring heavier weaponry to the field, and logistics suits are designed specifically support, so they carry a weapon as a second thought. Can't fit damage mods on a Minmatar suit with full PRO equipment? No ****. Logissaults don't use any equipment AT ALL. Your point is again null, and you miss the point entirely. I use Minmatar Logistics, I run full ADV equipment, ADV weaponry, and I annihilate the opposition like a hot knife through butter. The logistics suit is too self-sufficient. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:46:00 - [9] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves. But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence? Your god mode is, as I keep saying, too self sufficient. Logi can't defend himself? That's a bad argument and you know it, if sidearms are so useless, why do they exist in the game in the first place? They are deadly, just less so than light weaponry. If you are running full proto equipment, I imagine that you are with a squad. Why is it that you are by yourself trying to fight the enemy in the scenario that you are depicting? More mod slots, more equipment, more CPU/PG, all at the expense of one sidearm. If sidearms are as useless as you depict them to be, then how is it balanced that logi's get all these extra bells and whistles at the loss of one measly little sidearm? Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:48:00 - [10] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Only with a proper bonus on side arms, you are a logi not cannon fodder. Side arms are very effective but to force a logi to use only sidearms there should be more sidearms, the only 2 sidearms that can replace a light weapon are the scrambler pistol and the SMG. Why not a new proper weapon class? Logi weapons. Like I said, I would expect CCP to release at least three more sidearms before any change like this. Been Logistics since before it was cool.

Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:49:00 - [11] - Quote Marston VC wrote: Why do you think logis being allowed a light weapon is a "crutch"? Not specifically the light weapon, but the light weapon combined with everything else. It is just a better assault without the sidearm. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:00:00 - [12] - Quote Atiim wrote: I'm telling you to run a full squad with nothing but one sidearm because you seem to be under the illusion that having only 1 sidearm makes you combat effective. If you don't use your equipment at all, then you are an assault. You are not a medic so you are not fulfilling two roles at the same time. Your point about logistics being able to fulfill multiple roles at the same time in null and void. Not every logistics was designed specifically for support. Just look at the Amarr logistics. Just give Assaults more slots. The sidearm only idea is utterly ridiculous. I started with a very very long response to this but gave up, you aren't seeing the same picture that I am. Let me just say that running the logi without the equipment is the entire reason this is a problem. Obviously they are not running logistics if you call them logissaults. Making it required to fit all the equipment slots would simply make it so people would fill all the slots with basic nanite injectors, it fills the parameters, and uses a measly amount of CPU/PG. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:02:00 - [13] - Quote Commander Marquess wrote: I believe, if this idea were ever implemented, instead of giving the amarr Logi 2 sidearms that it should instead be given 1 light weapon slot and no sidearm. This way it would live up to its description of a combat oriented Logistics. Amarr logistic Description " the Amarr variant is a durable, Combat-Focused suit that provides Above-Average protection, allowing logistics units to operate in the middle of a firefight, actively dispersing aid and support as needed while simultaneously engaging the enemy and inflicting trauma of its own." I can relent to this, it seems like a fair enough argument. I'll make edits in the OP. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2331	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:10:00 - [14] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Never said sidearms are useless. Hell, most of them are good enough to be primaries. I even run a sidearm from time to time when I need the extra CPU/PG for that extra triage hive in a domination match, or a fit to lay out a field of proximity mines. But should I have to all the time just because I can? I use mass drivers to disorient reds for my squad/team a TAC AR to pick off any would be flankers, and a standard AR when the above two aren't viable. Limiting the logistics (or any class for that matter) takes away the principle of versatility this game was supposed to offer. Ask any heavy if they like being shoved into their new role of point defense for example. Is it limiting the role of the assault to not let him carry a heavy weapon? If no, then why is is limiting the logi by not letting him carry a light weapon? How limited would it be if we had ten different sidearms to choose from? You are seeing the game as it is now. I am seeing the game as it would be when all content is actually released. This is CCP, even if every single player in the entire game came into this thread and agreed with it, they wouldn't make the change until months from now, and we should have at least the Magsec by then, if not more. The versatility of this game is gimped by lack of content, let me assure you that there would be no lack of it in the future, limited to a sidearm or not. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2332	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:22:00 - [15] - Quote Eskel Bondfree wrote: This is not a good idea. What you suggest in the OP would be interesting as an additional specialization of the medium frame suits, but absolutely not as a substitute for the current logi suits. Here are the problems I'm seeing: You are forcing every player to make a decision between being useful in combat, or using equipment as a support character (you wrote it yourself, logis will be useless except for self defense in close combat). As cosgar pointed out, this is the opposite of the idea behind Dust and the fitting system. It limits the possibilities of how you can play this game, and with that it limits the fun you can have with the game and its long term motivation. As I believe we have already established, sidearms do not make you useless in combat, just less useful than light weapons. It just so happens that the sidearms we have now are close range, so at the moment that would be all they would be useful for. Running side arms only is simply boring. There are two weapon classes available: pistols and SMGs. This is an FPS, people want to play with all sorts of different weapons, so don't take the weapons away from them. If you do, you also take away the fun (see above). As I stated in the thread (I can see you skimmed lightly) I would expect CCP to release more sidearms before anything like this would happen. This would mean more choices. The entire concept of the Amarr logi would be nullified and the suit would have to be redone completely. A second side arm does not help at all in combat if you can't engage the enemy with a proper weapon to begin with. Except if you allowed dual wielding, which would be a balancing nightmare for CCP and is very unlikely to happen. A second sidearm is actually VERY powerful, especially on a suit that only carries one weapon to begin with. Also, I have some question: Why do you think that the ability to use a decent weapon is the reason for logi suits appearing OP? Imho, the problem is their ability to equip more modules than any assault suit. Did you ever consider another suggestion that has been around at least as long as the side arm only idea: a role bonuse for logi suits that grants massive reduction to CPU/PG costs of equipment, and a reduction of overall CPU/PG of all logi suits? The change you are proposing leaves logi's with no CPU/PG to fill their slots. Assault suits already have issues filling their slots, if logi suits had the same PG/CPU, but also had more module space and had to fill up equipment slots, how would that in any way be more balanced? Why go ahead and risk a brutal overnerf of a whole play style instead of fixing the obvious problems first? Everyone can see that the boni for assault and logi suits are not appropriate and that the 5 HP/s armor repair for logis is a combat advantage they clearly shouldn't have. This has to be fixed first, then the balance between logi and assault needs to be reevaluated. This is especially true for the Gallente logi and assault. I've already advocated to fix basic issues. I've had threads with far more thought put into them and far more constructive feedback from the community, and a dev never even so much as said, "we're no going to do that." It just died off with no acknowledgement whatsoever. Since CCP is either unwilling or unable to make basic changes, and a logi nerf seems to be on the horizon, I am making a recommendation that would hurt logi's the least. Is there actually a convincing argument anywhere on this forum that all logi suits are in fact OP with respect to their racial assault variants? Since CCP nerfed logi suits and changed the bonus of the Caldari logi, I see people complaining about the Gallente logi exclusively. Imho this is because the Gallente assault sucks and has not a single bonus to armor tanking, which creates a massive imbalance between Gallente logi (getting a free complex armor repper) and assault suit. Try using the dust fitting tool and seeing how much more powerful each logi suit is in comparison to its assault counterpart. Been Logistics since before it was cool.