DUST Search - [Discussion] The sidearm-only logi argument.

Logi Bro wrote:

Eskel Bondfree wrote:

You are forcing every player to make a decision between being useful in combat, or using equipment as a support character (you wrote it yourself, logis will be useless except for self defense in close combat). As cosgar pointed out, this is the opposite of the idea behind Dust and the fitting system. It limits the possibilities of how you can play this game, and with that it limits the fun you can have with the game and its long term motivation.

As I believe we have already established, sidearms do not make you useless in combat, just less useful than light weapons. It just so happens that the sidearms we have now are close range, so at the moment that would be all they would be useful for.

Running side arms only is simply boring. There are two weapon classes available: pistols and SMGs. This is an FPS, people want to play with all sorts of different weapons, so don't take the weapons away from them. If you do, you also take away the fun (see above).

As I stated in the thread (I can see you skimmed lightly) I would expect CCP to release more sidearms before anything like this would happen. This would mean more choices.

The entire concept of the Amarr logi would be nullified and the suit would have to be redone completely. A second side arm does not help at all in combat if you can't engage the enemy with a proper weapon to begin with. Except if you allowed dual wielding, which would be a balancing nightmare for CCP and is very unlikely to happen.

A second sidearm is actually VERY powerful, especially on a suit that only carries one weapon to begin with.

Logi Bro wrote:

Commander Marquess wrote:

I believe, if this idea were ever implemented, instead of giving the amarr Logi 2 sidearms that it should instead be given 1 light weapon slot and no sidearm. This way it would live up to its description of a combat oriented Logistics.

I can relent to this, it seems like a fair enough argument.
I'll make edits in the OP.


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Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 170	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:09:00 - [1] - Quote This is not a good idea. What you suggest in the OP would be interesting as an additional specialization of the medium frame suits, but absolutely not as a substitute for the current logi suits. Here are the problems I'm seeing: You are forcing every player to make a decision between being useful in combat, or using equipment as a support character (you wrote it yourself, logis will be useless except for self defense in close combat). As cosgar pointed out, this is the opposite of the idea behind Dust and the fitting system. It limits the possibilities of how you can play this game, and with that it limits the fun you can have with the game and its long term motivation. Running side arms only is simply boring. There are two weapon classes available: pistols and SMGs. This is an FPS, people want to play with all sorts of different weapons, so don't take the weapons away from them. If you do, you also take away the fun (see above). The entire concept of the Amarr logi would be nullified and the suit would have to be redone completely. A second side arm does not help at all in combat if you can't engage the enemy with a proper weapon to begin with. Except if you allowed dual wielding, which would be a balancing nightmare for CCP and is very unlikely to happen. Also, I have some question: Why do you think that the ability to use a decent weapon is the reason for logi suits appearing OP? Imho, the problem is their ability to equip more modules than any assault suit. Did you ever consider another suggestion that has been around at least as long as the side arm only idea: a role bonuse for logi suits that grants massive reduction to CPU/PG costs of equipment, and a reduction of overall CPU/PG of all logi suits? Why go ahead and risk a brutal overnerf of a whole play style instead of fixing the obvious problems first? Everyone can see that the boni for assault and logi suits are not appropriate and that the 5 HP/s armor repair for logis is a combat advantage they clearly shouldn't have. This has to be fixed first, then the balance between logi and assault needs to be reevaluated. This is especially true for the Gallente logi and assault. Is there actually a convincing argument anywhere on this forum that all logi suits are in fact OP with respect to their racial assault variants? Since CCP nerfed logi suits and changed the bonus of the Caldari logi, I see people complaining about the Gallente logi exclusively. Imho this is because the Gallente assault sucks and has not a single bonus to armor tanking, which creates a massive imbalance between Gallente logi (getting a free complex armor repper) and assault suit.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 171	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:34:00 - [2] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Eskel Bondfree wrote: You are forcing every player to make a decision between being useful in combat, or using equipment as a support character (you wrote it yourself, logis will be useless except for self defense in close combat). As cosgar pointed out, this is the opposite of the idea behind Dust and the fitting system. It limits the possibilities of how you can play this game, and with that it limits the fun you can have with the game and its long term motivation. As I believe we have already established, sidearms do not make you useless in combat, just less useful than light weapons. It just so happens that the sidearms we have now are close range, so at the moment that would be all they would be useful for. Running side arms only is simply boring. There are two weapon classes available: pistols and SMGs. This is an FPS, people want to play with all sorts of different weapons, so don't take the weapons away from them. If you do, you also take away the fun (see above). As I stated in the thread (I can see you skimmed lightly) I would expect CCP to release more sidearms before anything like this would happen. This would mean more choices. The entire concept of the Amarr logi would be nullified and the suit would have to be redone completely. A second side arm does not help at all in combat if you can't engage the enemy with a proper weapon to begin with. Except if you allowed dual wielding, which would be a balancing nightmare for CCP and is very unlikely to happen. A second sidearm is actually VERY powerful, especially on a suit that only carries one weapon to begin with. I'm quoting your OP here: Quote: What would happen if every logi had to run a sidearm at this exact moment from now on? Outside of CQC, of course, they [the logi suits] would be shooting practice Imho you gave a correct assesment of the situation, and the situation will not change significantly with the release of a Gallente pistol or Caldari SMG. What makes you think CCP ever planned to include sidearms that are suitable for more than self defense or backup outside of close combat? We have no indication of such plans whatsoever, and the very existence of a 'side arm' category as opposed to the light weapon category makes me doubt we will ever see this. If your entire argument relies on CCP implementing a host of new side arms, then you should have started this whole discussion 24 months from now, if those items would have been in the game then. There is no point in advocating a balance proposal that relies on speculative content we might not see until years from know, if ever. As it stands right know, side arms only for logis is a bad idea and it takes away many of the fitting choices a player has. About the Amarr logi: I think you are contradicting yourself now: Logi Bro wrote: Commander Marquess wrote: I believe, if this idea were ever implemented, instead of giving the amarr Logi 2 sidearms that it should instead be given 1 light weapon slot and no sidearm. This way it would live up to its description of a combat oriented Logistics. I can relent to this, it seems like a fair enough argument. I'll make edits in the OP. Please make up your mind, are 2 SMGs, as opposed to just one, suitable for a combat role or not? I say they are not, especially considering basic SMGs on a basic logi. Apparently you thougth the same when you made the comment I quoted (I wrote my own post before you edited the OP). So did you really think this whole proposal through? Because now you advocate to remove light weapons from all logi suits, with the argument that only losing the side arm is not enough to balance them. And at the same time you want to make the Amarr logi exactly what every logi is right now: a suit with more CPU/PG and slots than an assault, but only with a light weapon and no side arm. Well I guess then we will only have one logi that is OP as opposed to all four of them? You have yet to come up with a good solution for the role of the Amarr logi in your side arm only scenario.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 173	Posted - 2013.11.18 21:33:00 - [3] - Quote This threadnaught is getting out of hand, I don't see much actual 'discussion' happening here anymore. Imho there is not too much left of the initial argument after everything that has been said here. Especially considering the whole reasoning presented so far for why all logis need the nerf hammer in the first place boils down to this: Logi Bro wrote: Eskel Bondfree wrote: Is there actually a convincing argument anywhere on this forum that all logi suits are in fact OP with respect to their racial assault variants? [...] Try using the dust fitting tool and seeing how much more powerful each logi suit is in comparison to its assault counterpart. Logi Bro wrote: Ask Cat Merc what he thinks of 'not being able to do everything at once,' because I'm pretty sure he did the math and found Gal logi can brick tank plus damage stack[...] Cat Merc wrote: [...] Gallente Logi beats the crap from the Gallente Assault, which leads me to believe the rest of the logis are similar. [...] I have a friend who is like me but Amarr. He reports the same results. I have a friend with Minmatar stuff, and he reports similar results. [...] I trust these people.