None of us is going to argue that the SMG is as good as the AR in every situation, and that is the point Cosgar. By limiting logistics suits to a light weapon we are restricting them to a weapon that excels at CQC but is lacking in aggressive long range combat ability.

Assaults typically use a toxin (even on their proto suits) because of fitting issues even with maxed out electronics and engineering. Since assaults need to be able to engage enemies at all ranges they need a high power med range weapon (AR or SCR being the most common of these). The side arm is a back up for use in CQC combat only in the case of the Assault suit.

Now a Logi with a proto SMG will be a beast to deal with in CQC but assaults would have a range advantage with their AR. This means that while the Logi will still be able to kill it will be limited to doing so in specific situations. Instead of running into combat at the front of the pack Logis would have to hang back a bit, support their squad, and cover the rear. All roles the SMG and other side arms are suited for.

Assault suit bonus: CPU/PG fitting reduction to all weapons and weapon mods. Assaults get access to better firepower, logis keep their survivability at the cost of less firepower. Sidearms stop being underrated and everyone can STFU about suits so we can ***** about TTK until CCP fixes it. Done and done.

Gallente Assaults already have a bonus like this for all light weapons and it doesn't make it so I can fit a decent side arm or a logi-like tank. I don't think this will solve the problem.

Edit: How much of a bonus were you thinking? Too much and the Assault players would have proto in every slot (which would make us way OP) too little and it won't make any difference at all.

And limiting the most SP and ISK intensive suit class to only 2 viable weapons with massive drawbacks in a FPS is? Logis are more than worth the SP investment. The other suits need to be as well before we touch logistics again. Also, core problems need to be addressed for better balancing. They jumped the gun on the flaylock nerf and now it's barely good at prototype. Let's not do this to an entire suit class we're going to need more than ever in FW next patch. Unless some of the assaults on here want to put down their militia nanohives and carry injectors.

And what about combat engineers, field mechanics, communications experts, demolitions specialists? What about all those logi suits who's primary goal isn't his equipment?

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. On these points. The SMG and the Scrambler Pistol would be the only two real options at this point., we have a while to go before we get the other side arms I fear, and this would be rather limiting for the logi players.

What I'm looking for isn't a nerf for logistics players. I want all the classes to be balanced. If that means increasing the usability of all the classes, great. If it means decreasing the power of one, that is fine too.

The only reason we are having this discussion is to go into depth about one possible way to add more balance to all the classes by addressing one class. There are certainly other ways this balance could be obtained and I don't think any of us who is in favor of this change to Logi's would be opposed to discussing any of those other balancing methods.

Start a thread Cosgar. Lets talk about class balance as a whole since clearly you feel like we are attacking you with our conversation being directed at how to rebalance via the logistics class.

Putting the Assault back into Assault Dropsuits

As most of you know, there is always this ongoing debate about how Assault dropsuits are not as effective at frontline combat when compared to Logistics dropsuits fitted for a slayer role. While I think the gap is not as significant as it is made out to be on the Dust forums, I do recognize there is room for some improvements. Now many argue that the best way to address the perceived imbalance is to some how nerf the Logistics dropsuit. Things like reducing module slots, reducing CPU/PG, making equipment slots mandatory and limiting Logis to only sidearm weapons have all been suggested. However, I believe the best solution is to make Assault dropsuits better, by enhancing their offensive capability. This can be done by adjusting some simple game mechanics and rethinking role and race bonuses for both the Assault and Logistics classes.

Step one would be to dial back the 10% buff given to Light Weapons a few updates ago.

Step two would be to reduce the damage increase of Weapons Damage Modules. Militia/Basic to +2%, Advanced to +3% and Prototype to +5%. The stacking penalty for these modules would also be double their current rate.

Step three would be to change the current Assault bonus (+5% Shield Recharge Rate at each level) to something more fitting the slayer role. This would be a +2% Damage Increase to Light Weapons at each level. This way the Assault class become the more appealing choice for frontline combat by giving it the chance to regain that 10% damage buff at the highest level. Some adjustments to racial bonuses would also include:

• Amarr: 5% Reduction to laser weapon heat build-up (stays the same)
• Caldari: 3% Increase to max ammo (change from +2% efficacy to shield extenders)
• Gallente: 5% Reduction to weapon CPU/PG (change from -5% to hybrid weapon CPU/PG)
• Minmatar: 5% Increase to Light and Sidearm weapon clip size (change from +5% to sidearm clip size)

Step four would be to change some current Logistics racial bonuses. Logistics would keep the role bonus of +1 HP of Dropsuit Armor Repair, since there is generally no one to heal the healer and survivability is key in a support role. Changes to racial bonuses include:

• Amarr: 5% Reduction to active scanner CPU/PG (change from +5% efficacy to armor repair modules)
• Caldari: 5% Reduction to nano equipment CPU/PG (change from +5% efficacy to shield regulators)
• Gallente: 5% Reduction to repair tool CPU/PG (change from -5% to equipment CPU/PG)
• Minmatar: 5% Increase to hacking speed (stays the same)

Aside from the increase in damage output for Assault, the racial bonuses all now reflect important improvements in offensive weapon capability. Amarr remains the same with bonuses to Lasers and Scrambler Rifles; Caldari gets increased ammo, crucial for weapons like Mass Drivers and Swarm Launchers; Gallente gets significant CPU/PG savings from both weapons slots; and Minmatar gets larger magazines to offset its low HP.

The changes to Logistics don't take away from its durability with the inherent armor repair but do put more emphasis on support bonuses. The higher DPS potential of the Assault class, combined with the reduced effectiveness of Damage Modules, would make the Logistics suit a less capable platform for frontline combat.

Comments welcome

What's the point of starting another thread? It's just going to turn into another 10+ page nerf logi thread just like every one before it. Besides, I'd rather talk about core mechanics that are stopping people from wanting to play.

Maybe this is wrongheaded of me but I feel like class imbalances are on of the core mechanics that is stopping people from wanting to play.

That is just my 2 isk though.

All of the roles you just mentioned would be equipment focused roles in DUST.

Not specifically the light weapon, but the light weapon combined with everything else. It is just a better assault without the sidearm.

Let me just say that running the logi without the equipment is the entire reason this is a problem. Obviously they are not running logistics if you call them logissaults. Making it required to fit all the equipment slots would simply make it so people would fill all the slots with basic nanite injectors, it fills the parameters, and uses a measly amount of CPU/PG.

I never at any point said logi's need to be at the back repping. I have used sidearms and they are far more powerful that people give them credit for, logi's would in no way be useless in combat.

Ask Cat Merc what he thinks of 'not being able to do everything at once,' because I'm pretty sure he did the math and found Gal logi can brick tank plus damage stack, that's doing two things at once that the assault could only do one at a time.

If sidearms are so strong then, how would this fix anything at all. If they are just as viable as lights this wouldn't fix anything.

IMO the best way to balance logis is:
1-Give them THE EXACT same amount of high and low slots as Assaults.The extra CPU-PG is for equipment,not Assault mode.
2-Change their bonus to the Gallente logi bonus:

-Logi default bonus: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on equipment

Specific racial:
-GAllente Logi: +1 Armor rep per level (so this one stays the same)
-Cal Logi:15% Shield regen rate per level (For a maximum of +75% = 35 Shield per sec)
-Amarr Logi: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on Active Scanners and Drop Uplinks per level
-Minmatar Logi: 5% Hacking speed per level

I might even post this with its own thread later....

IMO the best way to balance logis is:
1-Give them THE EXACT same amount of high and low slots as Assaults.The extra CPU-PG is for equipment,not Assault mode.
2-Change their bonus to the Gallente logi bonus:

-Logi default bonus: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on equipment

Specific racial:
-GAllente Logi: +1 Armor rep per level (so this one stays the same)
-Cal Logi:15% Shield regen rate per level (For a maximum of +75% = 35 Shield per sec)
-Amarr Logi: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on Active Scanners and Drop Uplinks per level
-Minmatar Logi: 5% Hacking speed per level

I might even post this with its own thread later....

Work on those bonuses then. The Logistics wide bonus is nice, but the new individual ones make some weak links. Hacking, for example, is almost useless in two of three game modes so Minmatar would be right out. Amarr have limited equips already, so giving them further reductions to the Scout-type equipment is nice but having lost their tank bonus to the Gallente it is far from good. The Cal and Gal Logi both have survivability bonuses, good in every situation.

Heh.


I don't think too many believe that. Me in my SMG certainly don't and we both got a second opinion from Mr.Scrambler


Pretty well actually. It's not like they shoot pebbles or something. Your not going to be running out of ammo either soooo...

Seeing as how I only use a side arm anyhow, loosing the ability to use a light weapon wouldn't affect me at all. As I see it, that'd help with all the rage over logisaults too. Doubt many would use them for slaying if they couldn't have their precious Duvs or whatever the big thing now is.

'A speed nerf' and the word logistics, don't go hand in hand.

The times I couldn't jump over a stupid elevation,.... and a teammate got killed because I couldn't reach him fast enough...

Luckily we have more slots to put stuff into like cardiac regs, but then everyone complains that we use those extra slots for assault-reasons, those complainers never think about the other side do they?

My position: This is a horrible idea.

My logic: It's overly restrictive and NOT fun.

I win. Seriously.

The logi suit needs a specific loadout requirement similar to the current loadout requirement for all classes, which is that a weapon be on every valid loadout. In other words, in similar fashion, the logi suit must utilize all of the equipment slots in order for it to be a valid, deployable loadout. Yes, I can already hear you saying "but faux logis will easily get around this by equipping 3 compact hives at 10 CPU and 2 PG a piece."

Start there. Observe. Reevaluate.

If that doesn't do the trick, then consider a minimum CPU total for equipment on proto suits to something like 100 CPU. Any proto logi worth his salt has at least that much equipment on his suit. Reduced figures could be set for advanced and standard logi suits.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. This "problem" deserves a smart solution, not a horrible uber nerf to every logis offensive capabilities.