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[Discussion] The sidearm-only logi argument.

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Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2325	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:03:00 - [1] - Quote Let me preface this thread by saying I want to discuss this idea, how it would affect the logi class, how it would be implemented, etc. If you disagree with the argument, I would urge you to explain why, because if you simply write, "lol this is a bad idea," then I will simply read it as, "pwease don't take away my crutch!" Also, I'd like to throw out some stipulations before I make my own argument. First, Amarr logi's, in this situation, would receive a second sidearm slot. Second, I would not expect CCP to implement this idea until there have been AT LEAST three more sidearms released for us to use, so that not every logi is running a Winmatar SMG. Alright, so let me start with the implications. What would happen if every logi had to run a sidearm at this exact moment from now on? Well, I imagine that most logissaults would come to the forums to cry, and to be fair to them, it is a very drastic change, so a respec might be justified in this situation. (when I say respec, I mean specifically SP taken out of logi dropsuit command skills, and nothing else.) All pure logistics players, on the other hand, would also likely come to the forums to complain that their light weapon skills are now useless to them, so a respec specifically in the light weapons tree would also be justified. The logistics class as a whole would become more vulnerable, but not actually useless, there are people that run dual sidearms despite having a light weapon slot because they WANT to, I imagine logi's will still be able to defend themselves in CQC. Outside of CQC, of course, they would be shooting practice, so logi's that currently run lone-wolf mode(myself included) would be encouraged to stick close to team-mates to keep them safe over long distance combat. Overall, it means that logi's can still combat, but not as effectively as assault players. As for how it would be implemented, I would expect a few buffs to help the logi out with this extreme change. First, the maximum amount of equipment carried should be increased to five, so that Amarr/Caldari would get four slots at the proto tier, and Minmatar/Gallente would get five at proto. Obviously, this is strengthening the logistics role. Second, logi speed should be buffed to be exactly at level with assault, currently logi speed is about 5% below assault. This would allow logi's to keep pace with their assault brethren, so that they don't get left in the dust trying to keep up with a group. Lastly, stamina and stamina regeneration would be buffed to an area somewhere between assaults and scouts. Logistics suits will need to be mobile to cope with the new change, and this will help tremendously. Overall, it makes the logistics class more logisctic-y. So let's talk about the other classes and how they might be affected by this difference. Assault suits would become more popular, because a large majority of assault players are currently residing in god-mode logistics suits. Heavy suits would come out of hiding if they thought there was a high chance that they would find a logi bro in most games, and scouts would be pretty much the same. I think removal of the assault suit's equipment slots would be appropriate, to make logistics player more needed on the battlefield, and it would be wise to increase the scout's equipment max to two so that nanohives don't become too rare. Overall, I'd say the other classes would be happy not getting outperformed in every way by the logi. My TL;DR: Yes, I am advocating that the logistics class should get only a sidearm. If you didn't read the thread and just scrolled down here to get a quick version, then suck it up and read the rest of my post. Constructive criticism is welcomed if you actually have a reasonable argument, like I said before, don't give me a "lolno," because it makes you look like a crutch-using tool. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2325	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:03:00 - [2] - Quote [Reserved] Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Mr Machine Guns Nyain San 143	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:06:00 - [3] - Quote this is what i would do when the new weapons come out, give each assault drop suit a bonus for using their ffactions weapon tech kinda like what the amarr assault already has
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1757	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:07:00 - [4] - Quote Why not a damage De-buff OR this Make a deal... give us Base 40-50% equipment PG/CPU reduction and 5% per level after that and I'll take the PG and CPU of an assault Then Gals get .5HP/s Regen Amarr get some bonus to base armor HP +5% per level Cals get something to increase base shield HP Minnies get something to help base speed And we change the assault general bonus of 5% per level fitting light weapons AND sidearms and possibly a inherent +5% increase to damage with the loss of an equipment slot Gals get .5HP/s Regen Amarr get some bonus to base armor HP +5% per level Cals get something to increase base shield HP Minnies get something to help base speed BUT THEY just repeated the same bonuses again, yep it's what they need treat the medium suits the same so nobody bitches about unfairesss or in equality Level 1 Forum Warrior I'm a bittervet, if I seem like a douche it's because of your stupidity
Musta Tornius Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 657	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:10:00 - [5] - Quote Posting for Godin as he doesn't know why he's banned: "Godin says that he Agrees, and also says if that's not an option, then instead of taking sidearms away, you can reduce the damage output of the ligt weapon." Dust514 Weapon Range & Information
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1084	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:11:00 - [6] - Quote The logistics class if fine where it is. Sure it can preform the tasks of all roles, but it can't do so at the same time . And why does everyone assume that logistics should only be in the back repping and resupplying everyone. Run with literally nothing but ONE sidearms for 2 weeks and see how well you perform. This argument is idiotic and not worth explaining in vast amounts of detail Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2325	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:12:00 - [7] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: Why not a damage De-buff OR this Make a deal... give us Base 40-50% equipment PG/CPU reduction and 5% per level after that and I'll take the PG and CPU of an assault Then Gals get .5HP/s Regen Amarr get some bonus to base armor HP +5% per level Cals get something to increase base shield HP Minnies get something to help base speed And we change the assault general bonus of 5% per level fitting light weapons AND sidearms and possibly a inherent +5% increase to damage with the loss of an equipment slot Gals get .5HP/s Regen Amarr get some bonus to base armor HP +5% per level Cals get something to increase base shield HP Minnies get something to help base speed BUT THEY just repeated the same bonuses again, yep it's what they need treat the medium suits the same so nobody bitches about unfairesss or in equality Problem is, with the CPU/PG of an assault plus using equipment, you would never be able to fill out all of those module slots, which kind of makes one of the huge pros of being logistics null. I like the inherent +5% to damage on assault suits, though. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1757	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:13:00 - [8] - Quote Musta Tornius wrote: Posting for Godin as he doesn't know why he's banned: "Godin says that he Agrees, and also says if that's not an option, then instead of taking sidearms away, you can reduce the damage output of the ligt weapon." See the Idea of a De-buff is to allow the Logi to use anything they want but they just are less effective than an assault. Level 1 Forum Warrior I'm a bittervet, if I seem like a douche it's because of your stupidity
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 1391	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:13:00 - [9] - Quote Npt this again. You're asking for a change that isn't nrrdrd at all. Do you have a proto ogi and a proto assault suit of the same race? If not, you're not really entitled to presenting this as an "enlightened suggestion". Everyone I've talked to that has both the Amar suits or bith the Caldari suits like I have, say that they're fine except for a few racial bonuses. Caldari logistics has by far the worst and should be changed. IMO giving the Logi an equipment fitting bonus and the assault class a general weaponry bonus would be enough. This only one sidearm slot sounds like a good idea for officer suits. http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/KingBabar/media/BannerKingbabarcopy.png.html
Cosgar ParagonX 7841	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:16:00 - [10] - Quote Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2325	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:16:00 - [11] - Quote Atiim wrote: Pwease don't take away my crutch I never at any point said logi's need to be at the back repping. I have used sidearms and they are far more powerful that people give them credit for, logi's would in no way be useless in combat. Ask Cat Merc what he thinks of 'not being able to do everything at once,' because I'm pretty sure he did the math and found Gal logi can brick tank plus damage stack, that's doing two things at once that the assault could only do one at a time. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Jackof All-Trades The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 272	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:18:00 - [12] - Quote I'll miss my plasma cannon on my logi suit "Pulvis et umbra sums." We are but dust and shadow GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace \ Omni-Specialist / Focus: Gallente
Funkmaster Whale Whale Farm 1135	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:19:00 - [13] - Quote The problem with Logis isn't their weapon. It's their ability to single-handedly outperform the Assault suit in almost every aspect. The 5 HP/s regen coupled with having 2x the fitting potential AND carry 3-4 equipment is what makes them function as Super Assaults. We need to take baby steps to fix this. First, get rid of the 5 HP/s like they've said they would months ago and give them a proper Logi bonus. Get rid of the blanket 10% damage buff from Uprising 1.0 and give the Assault suit a 2% per level damage bonus. That way the bonus is actually useful to ALL Assault suits and not just shield-tankers. Let me play you the song of my people!
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2329	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:20:00 - [14] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
skippy678 F.T.U. 120	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:22:00 - [15] - Quote just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. U.play.good? F.T.U. Recruiting Thread
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4514	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:23:00 - [16] - Quote Atiim wrote: The logistics class if fine where it is. Sure it can preform the tasks of all roles, but it can't do so at the same time . And why does everyone assume that logistics should only be in the back repping and resupplying everyone. Run with literally nothing but ONE sidearms for 2 weeks and see how well you perform. This argument is idiotic and not worth explaining in vast amounts of detail So... Logistics is a do everything suit. But the other suits can't morph into other suits, and Logistics are the only suits with more than 2 equipment. Do you not see the problem? *Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant* *Beta Vet* *Level 4 Forum Warrior*
Mr Machine Guns Nyain San 144	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:23:00 - [17] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: The problem with Logis isn't their weapon. It's their ability to single-handedly outperform the Assault suit in almost every aspect. The 5 HP/s regen coupled with having 2x the fitting potential AND carry 3-4 equipment is what makes them function as Super Assaults. We need to take baby steps to fix this. First, get rid of the 5 HP/s like they've said they would months ago and give them a proper Logi bonus. Get rid of the blanket 10% damage buff from Uprising 1.0 and give the Assault suit a 2% per level damage bonus. That way the bonus is actually useful to ALL Assault suits and not just shield-tankers. gallente logi bonus is also ridiculous to have all their equipment get a reduction in cpu/pg, one would be fine but for every equipment they put on it. Since they already have a ton of cpu and pg there is no point to give them this insane bonus
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2329	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:24:00 - [18] - Quote skippy678 wrote: just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. ....do you have the ability to read? Try again, and look at my name, and then tell me that I am talking about a different class. (Psst here's a hint, I AM a logi) Been Logistics since before it was cool.
skippy678 F.T.U. 120	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:25:00 - [19] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. then why dont you use it? instead of whatever you use... the real way to know what is balanced is trying to think of what you would espec into....I am having a hardish time deciding..i have it down to a handfull but no 1 or 2 suits stand out as being an immeddiate first choice..a few stnd out as hell no and they are the suits CCP should work on. U.play.good? F.T.U. Recruiting Thread
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4514	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:25:00 - [20] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? Cosgar, that is your stupidest argument you ever made. *Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant* *Beta Vet* *Level 4 Forum Warrior*

Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 939	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:26:00 - [21] - Quote I kind of imagine the two options as looking like this. Option 1: All logistics suits trade their light weapon slots for side arm slots with the exception of the Amarr logi which keeps the light weapon thus retaining its "assault like" capabilities. The Amarr logi would have the additional requirement of having to fill its equipment slots to help retain balance with the other logi suits (more versatile but less able and all that). To make this option more palatable logistics suits would have to provide a large bonus to equipment usage. Option 2: All logistics suits provide a -20% bonus to weapon damage (not just light weapon damage). This penalty is reduced by skilling into logistics suits by 3% per level, leaving proto-logis with a 5% reduction in damage output. This penalty reduction would need to be paired with a small per level bonus that increases ability with equipment in some way. Option 3: Require logistics suits to fill all their equipment slots. No other changes needed for this balancing option. Using the above options as a basis for comparison of the ideas it would seem that option 2 provides more flexibility to logistics players which they will enjoy but still makes them less efficient than assaults at killing. Option one on the other hand reduces character flexibility but would force more of a support style of play since being aggressive would not be a very successful strategy for most players (except for those who are amazing at getting head shots with the scrambler pistol). This rebalancing method would probably frustrate a lot of logistics players who have put skills into light weapons and would probably necessitate a partial skill refunding for logistics only players. The third option seems to be the one that is most palatable for logistics players as it results in very few changes to how their skills work but does restrict their fitting options in a way that would reduce their combat efficiency. It would also probably be the simplest change for CCP to code. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Tectonic Fusion 577	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:26:00 - [22] - Quote Then give me a respec for 90% of the SP I invested in. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
skippy678 F.T.U. 120	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:27:00 - [23] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: skippy678 wrote: just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. ....do you have the ability to read? Try again, and look at my name, and then tell me that I am talking about a different class. (Psst here's a hint, I AM a logi) Your name dosent make you a Logi.....the fact that you are trying to nerf your own suit means your an idiot or lying. end of my conversation here troll U.play.good? F.T.U. Recruiting Thread
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 17	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:29:00 - [24] - Quote Just fix my assault suit you can leave the logi guys alone i don't like nerfs cause it screws people over. Why the crap do i have a shield bonus on my gallente suit. Were is my Cpu and Pg its like wearing a tight pair of pants with no room for my car keys. The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu
Cosgar ParagonX 7847	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:29:00 - [25] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves. But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1088	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:29:00 - [26] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Atiim wrote: Pwease don't take away my crutch I never at any point said logi's need to be at the back repping. I have used sidearms and they are far more powerful that people give them credit for, logi's would in no way be useless in combat. Ask Cat Merc what he thinks of 'not being able to do everything at once,' because I'm pretty sure he did the math and found Gal logi can brick tank plus damage stack, that's doing two things at once that the assault could only do one at a time. Resulting to immature post editing I see? Again. Post a youtube video of you and an entire squad using nothing but sidearms. And remember that not everyone can afford to run PRO gear (even sidearms) 24/7. So make your squad use ONE STD or ADV sidearm. (Logistics only have 1 weapon slot, so you should only use one sidearm). If sidearms are so viable, then why don't we make Assaults use sidearms only? Because it's idiotic and unnecessary? Well so is the idea of forcing the Logistics class to use sidearms. Again, I'd love to see someone try to brick tank my Minmatar Logistics and have complex damage mods while still having enough CPU/PG for PRO equipment. Go on I'm waiting. A brick tanked, high DPS suit is an Assault. What was Cat Merc's equipment? If It wasn't ADV or PRO then I refuse to count that as being a medic. Therefore, Cat Merc had a good assault fit but a terrible medic fit. Also, what Logistics do you use? Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2330	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:29:00 - [27] - Quote skippy678 wrote: Logi Bro wrote: skippy678 wrote: just respec when you get the chance..but you wont. You just want a different class than yours too suffer...if it really is OP then respec into it and stop crying. ....do you have the ability to read? Try again, and look at my name, and then tell me that I am talking about a different class. (Psst here's a hint, I AM a logi) Your name dosent make you a Logi.....the fact that you are trying to nerf your own suit means your an idiot or lying. end of my conversation here troll As you are obviously the troll, I can be certain that you will, in fact, come back to make more useless posting. I am trying to nerf my own class because I know for a fact that it will be nerfed anyways, I am simply trying to recommend the nerf that I think would hurt the class the least. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Funkmaster Whale Whale Farm 1135	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:30:00 - [28] - Quote Mr Machine Guns wrote: gallente logi bonus is also ridiculous to have all their equipment get a reduction in cpu/pg, one would be fine but for every equipment they put on it. Since they already have a ton of cpu and pg there is no point to give them this insane bonus IMO, this would make more sense to me: Get rid of the 5 HP/s. Replace the Logi bonus with a 5% per level to fitting equipment. Next, lower the base CPU/PG of Logi suits across the board to compensate. This would accomplish two things: (1) it would allow the Logi suit to focus on what it's intended for: providing support through equipment; (2) it would lower the potential for Logi suits to brick-tank their suits with all Complex mods. Of course the Logis would be in an uproar about it because they couldn't super-fit their suits anymore with any and every module. Let me play you the song of my people!
Ander Thedas Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 22	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:30:00 - [29] - Quote My main issue with this would be a lack of support versatility. A lot of times that I'm playing a logi I'll hit a situation where no one on the team is running dedicated AV against a 3 LAVs and a HAV, and it falls on me to swap to a logi suit with swarms to at least hold them back if not take them out. Losing the ability to do so would really inhibit what I do on the battlefield in a support capacity or force me to skill into a whole new assault suit just to run a secondary use support weapon that no one else wants to be bothered with running (hence it falling on my lap as a support player). Besides that I don't hate the idea. I just wish there was a more sensible way of balancing everything out.
DeadlyAztec11 Gallente Federation 2615	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:31:00 - [30] - Quote I like this idea, but as you said, I do not want to see this implemented until we get more sidearms. Not only that, I believe that there should be a Carbine type class, it is very similar to main light weapons, but not nearly as effective, they can fit in a sidearm slot but they take up a lot of CPU and PG if put in that slot, except on Logi suits, they would not be penalized with extra fitting requirements. A short AR and Scrambler Rifle come to mind. By the way, this is what real medics and engineers do, they get a Carbine instead of a larger variant. Madness is the emergency exit. You can just step outside, and close the door on all those dreadful things that happened.



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