Never said sidearms are useless. Hell, most of them are good enough to be primaries. I even run a sidearm from time to time when I need the extra CPU/PG for that extra triage hive in a domination match, or a fit to lay out a field of proximity mines. But should I have to all the time just because I can? I use mass drivers to disorient reds for my squad/team a TAC AR to pick off any would be flankers, and a standard AR when the above two aren't viable. Limiting the logistics (or any class for that matter) takes away the principle of versatility this game was supposed to offer. Ask any heavy if they like being shoved into their new role of point defense for example.

1) Also, I'd like to throw out some stipulations before I make my own argument. First, Amarr logi's, in this situation, would receive a second sidearm slot.

2) Alright, so let me start with the implications. What would happen if every logi had to run a sidearm at this exact moment from now on? Well, I imagine that most logissaults would come to the forums to cry, and to be fair to them, it is a very drastic change, so a respec might be justified in this situation. (when I say respec, I mean specifically SP taken out of logi dropsuit command skills, and nothing else.)

All pure logistics players, on the other hand, would also likely come to the forums to complain that their light weapon skills are now useless to them, so a respec specifically in the light weapons tree would also be justified. The logistics class as a whole would become more vulnerable, but not actually useless, there are people that run dual sidearms despite having a light weapon slot because they WANT to, I imagine logi's will still be able to defend themselves in CQC. Outside of CQC, of course, they would be shooting practice, so logi's that currently run lone-wolf mode(myself included) would be encouraged to stick close to team-mates to keep them safe over long distance combat.

Overall, it means that logi's can still combat, but not as effectively as assault players.

As for how it would be implemented, I would expect a few buffs to help the logi out with this extreme change. First, the maximum amount of equipment carried should be increased to five, so that Amarr/Caldari would get four slots at the proto tier, and Minmatar/Gallente would get five at proto. Obviously, this is strengthening the logistics role.

Overall, it makes the logistics class more logisctic-y.

Assault suits would become more popular, because a large majority of assault players are currently residing in god-mode logistics suits. Heavy suits would come out of hiding if they thought there was a high chance that they would find a logi bro in most games, and scouts would be pretty much the same. I think removal of the assault suit's equipment slots would be appropriate, to make logistics player more needed on the battlefield, and it would be wise to increase the scout's equipment max to two so that nanohives don't become too rare.

Overall, I'd say the other classes would be happy not getting outperformed in every way by the logi.

Is it limiting the role of the assault to not let him carry a heavy weapon? If no, then why is is limiting the logi by not letting him carry a light weapon? How limited would it be if we had ten different sidearms to choose from? You are seeing the game as it is now. I am seeing the game as it would be when all content is actually released.

This is CCP, even if every single player in the entire game came into this thread and agreed with it, they wouldn't make the change until months from now, and we should have at least the Magsec by then, if not more. The versatility of this game is gimped by lack of content, let me assure you that there would be no lack of it in the future, limited to a sidearm or not.

Not going to lie.....I would cry if my amarr logi was restricted to sidearms.

If I'm being restricted to sidearms. Than assaults get no grenades.

This is not a good idea. What you suggest in the OP would be interesting as an additional specialization of the medium frame suits, but absolutely not as a substitute for the current logi suits.

Here are the problems I'm seeing:

• You are forcing every player to make a decision between being useful in combat, or using equipment as a support character (you wrote it yourself, logis will be useless except for self defense in close combat). As cosgar pointed out, this is the opposite of the idea behind Dust and the fitting system. It limits the possibilities of how you can play this game, and with that it limits the fun you can have with the game and its long term motivation.

As I believe we have already established, sidearms do not make you useless in combat, just less useful than light weapons. It just so happens that the sidearms we have now are close range, so at the moment that would be all they would be useful for.


• Running side arms only is simply boring. There are two weapon classes available: pistols and SMGs. This is an FPS, people want to play with all sorts of different weapons, so don't take the weapons away from them. If you do, you also take away the fun (see above).

As I stated in the thread (I can see you skimmed lightly) I would expect CCP to release more sidearms before anything like this would happen. This would mean more choices.


• The entire concept of the Amarr logi would be nullified and the suit would have to be redone completely. A second side arm does not help at all in combat if you can't engage the enemy with a proper weapon to begin with. Except if you allowed dual wielding, which would be a balancing nightmare for CCP and is very unlikely to happen.

A second sidearm is actually VERY powerful, especially on a suit that only carries one weapon to begin with.

Also, I have some question:

• Why do you think that the ability to use a decent weapon is the reason for logi suits appearing OP? Imho, the problem is their ability to equip more modules than any assault suit. Did you ever consider another suggestion that has been around at least as long as the side arm only idea: a role bonuse for logi suits that grants massive reduction to CPU/PG costs of equipment, and a reduction of overall CPU/PG of all logi suits?

The change you are proposing leaves logi's with no CPU/PG to fill their slots. Assault suits already have issues filling their slots, if logi suits had the same PG/CPU, but also had more module space and had to fill up equipment slots, how would that in any way be more balanced?


• Why go ahead and risk a brutal overnerf of a whole play style instead of fixing the obvious problems first? Everyone can see that the boni for assault and logi suits are not appropriate and that the 5 HP/s armor repair for logis is a combat advantage they clearly shouldn't have. This has to be fixed first, then the balance between logi and assault needs to be reevaluated. This is especially true for the Gallente logi and assault.

I've already advocated to fix basic issues. I've had threads with far more thought put into them and far more constructive feedback from the community, and a dev never even so much as said, "we're no going to do that." It just died off with no acknowledgement whatsoever. Since CCP is either unwilling or unable to make basic changes, and a logi nerf seems to be on the horizon, I am making a recommendation that would hurt logi's the least.


• Is there actually a convincing argument anywhere on this forum that all logi suits are in fact OP with respect to their racial assault variants? Since CCP nerfed logi suits and changed the bonus of the Caldari logi, I see people complaining about the Gallente logi exclusively. Imho this is because the Gallente assault sucks and has not a single bonus to armor tanking, which creates a massive imbalance between Gallente logi (getting a free complex armor repper) and assault suit.

Try using the dust fitting tool and seeing how much more powerful each logi suit is in comparison to its assault counterpart.

I don't think the side arm only restriction should apply to Amarr logi's since they are supposed to be logi-assaults. They should just have some other restriction placed upon them to force them to use equipment as well.

Drop all dps by 10%, except maybe the HMG, and then give all assault suits an ADDITIONAL bonus of 1% per level (of assault suit) to their racial weapon dps. I think removing the option for a light weapon does take away from the sandbox feel. If I were developing a mid sized frame most of my EHP and CPU/PG would be very close with bonuses that make the frame better at one role or another. Where I think the logi frame messes up is with the equipment and the slots they are supposed to use. The repair tool and scanner should be a light weapon or sidearm.

A rep tool bonus (Amarr) and a weapon slot tool encourages players to give up their weapon for a support tool and gain a bonus or use the suit as the assault suit and lose the abiltiy to rep. We need to hit the suits where it counts and that is the SP gained from wearing them. Make a suit used as intended more profitable than a suit that is performing out of its role. I don't want to lose the ability to use a logi as an assault but it shouldn't do well and I think that using a suit's set of bonuses as a guide to how it is supposed to be used it the best way to encourage suit roles.

Make the suit really fu@#$ng good at what it does when the bonuses are used and not much better than a starter if not using them. The suit isn't what needs to be addressed, it is the tools and bonuses given while using those tools. The ability of the suit to make ISK,WP or SP should be hampered if the bonuses are not used.

I am even up for removing the built in regen and replacing it with a needle that revives and 5% per level of armor revived. The suit should not stand there not fitted and be better than any other and the logi rep bonus does that. Make us logi use a slot for that repper and trade it with a needle. We can carry a better needle if we want more than the bonus gives.

First they should reduce all DPS by 10% and drop an equipment slot or two; make scanners and rep tools use a weapon slot. Rethink all bonuses to all suits and use them to guide players in the suits role on the battlefield and make the use outside of that role difficult or only half as profitable. Finally pull all level based built in reps and replace them with a level based nanite injector.

My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves.

But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence?

Taking away a class's means to defend itself in a FPS isn't a stupid idea? If this was such a great idea, wouldn't a dev had responded to one of the 5938745073405 nerf logi topics before this? Hell, they could've done this when they nerfed the CaLogi.

ISK is not a balancing point.
Base HP doesn't matter when you get more slots and 5hp/s on armor.

Resulting to immature post editing I see?

Again. Post a youtube video of you and an entire squad using nothing but sidearms. And remember that not everyone can afford to run PRO gear (even sidearms) 24/7. So make your squad use ONE STD or ADV sidearm. (Logistics only have 1 weapon slot, so you should only use one sidearm).

If sidearms are so viable, then why don't we make Assaults use sidearms only? Because it's idiotic and unnecessary? Well so is the idea of forcing the Logistics class to use sidearms.

Again, I'd love to see someone try to brick tank my Minmatar Logistics and have complex damage mods while still having enough CPU/PG for PRO equipment. Go on I'm waiting.

A brick tanked, high DPS suit is an Assault. What was Cat Merc's equipment? If It wasn't ADV or PRO then I refuse to count that as being a medic. Therefore, Cat Merc had a good assault fit but a terrible medic fit.

Also, what Logistics do you use?

As a scout, I am used to running sidearm only sometimes as a way to get more out of my fit and as I am never useful at range anyway, the smg is always a useful weapon to me. I don't know about removing the speed nerf but I'm sure playtesting would show whether they need it, which they might with only sidearms. Giving Amarr a light weapon is a mistake though I think, perhaps an additional secondary or grenade but giving them and only them a light weapon makes the other change irrelevant, anyone that wanted to assault logi would hide in an Amarr suit and complain until it was put back to the old way.

But...
If it only needed something for self defense, then an SMG would do...

Unless of course you want to rush forward, which would require something more potent like an assault rifle ;)

Didn't say ISK was a balancing point, you did. But like everyone lately, you seem to come from the school of thought that the only module slots in this game available are shield extenders and armor plates. If this were the case, then sure logis would be OP, but it isn't. But let's see how much of a balancing aspect ISK might have in 1.7 FW.

My solution to this whole thing.

1. Remove all Dmg mods.
2.require all logi suits to have a max of 1 unfilled equipment slot.

Problem solved. Ttk is raised, less slayer logis on the field.

Cosgar, I am not even sure if you tried a proto assault suit, and then compared it's racial counterpart to the logi.
I have, and at least when it comes to the Gallente, it far outperforms the Assault.
There is no ******* denying it, when my Logi can get 1.5x the armor of my assault, 3x damage mods, a duvolle, and in addition to that 4 equipment.
My assault is limited to 2x damage mods, a GEK 38, and one equipment.

That's ******* dumb as ****.

Making Logis a sidearm only class is a terrible idea.

1) Every suit needs the capability to engage at medium range.Scouts have speed and stealth to close the distance. Heavies have sheer amount of HP. Logis do not. Running slowly across the map under a hail of AR rounds, mass driver shells, fighting scouts in close quarters combat with shotguns, engaging heavys with 1k hp with just a sub machine gun is suicide. Logis will die before they can get near the front line to rep, resupply, and revive.

2) Having no side arm is a enough of a handicap. I have lost many a logi suit reloading my weapon while the assault suit just switches to thier side arm. I've killed many logi suits with my assault suits doing the same thing. In terms of damage output the assault has an overwhelming advantage.

3)Sidearms limited in number. Restricting an entire player base to nova knives, scrambler pistols and SMGs deprives logistic players of all the content DUST 514 has to offer.

4) Sidearms are no match class by class for light weapons. Which is self evident, as sidearms are meant for back up.

5) Stop comparing proto logis to regular suits. Sure your basic suit got crushed by a proto gallente logi rocking a duvolle. Since when have you seen basic/ adv assault get crushed by a basic adv logi suit?

6) Stop the unfair comparision of WP earning. So far the only distinct advantage logis have is the amount of warpoints they can earn. But nanohives, uplinks, scanners, repair tools etc take massive amounts of sp to skill into rather than assaults who can just by pass the whole lot. Basic and adv logis get killed a lot, using their light weapons already Those wp comes at a price of isk, kd, and a ton of precious SP and saves every other class money, and sp (logis invest in nanocircutry so you don't have too). So called 'slayers' might whine about this, yet compared to Dropship pilots slayers bask in glory.

7) Players have the right to be versatile. If a player wants to take advantage of a proto logi cpu and PG, well after investing 2 million plus SP in just the suit why shouldn't they? Because they killed you? Assaults don't have a special right to be the end all of killers and WP earners in DUST. Logis dont cry about assaults using a needle to stick players. Heavies with ARs turn my stomach, but i'm not going to remove access to light weapons for heavy suits.Scouts use shotguns, but i'm not goin to restrict scouts to only shotguns. Players earn the sp, they have right to spend it anywhere they want.

8) you are ignoring the logi/heavy balance. Logi protects heavy at long range, and reps heavy. Heavy annihlates at close range while getting reppe by logi. they already protect the other. Instead you wnt the logi heavy combo to be close range only, and then both of them gets annihilated bu assauls. Thats Bull s'**t.


9) Realize your are only advocating for your self. Its fine you dont like the idea of logis being able to defend themselves, and clones they run out to revive. If you like running a logis suit with the bare minimum of weaponry at a distinct disadvantage to every suit in the game is fine.But that's you. I like the idea of shooting the enemy 50 m away that nearly took down the heavy i'm repping. I like forcing enemies from range into cover before i stab a clone, get him up to 50% hp, and the both of us engage. You want logis to do that with a pistol? You want logis to depend assault players? You might call your self a logi, but you are the only supposed logi i've seen that wants thier class to become useless. I hereby reject your claim logis should be sidearm only.

Same **** happened to the Caldari assault/logi. I'm telling you, it's not the suits, but core mechanic imbalance and lack of core content. You're ignoring the big picture and looking at little short term problems that could be fixed when the big ones are.

I have a friend who is like me but Amarr.
He reports the same results.

I have a friend with Minmatar stuff, and he reports similar results.

This is accross the logi suits, not just the Gallente one.



Also, what is the bigger picture?
What is the core mechanic imbalance?