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[Discussion] The sidearm-only logi argument.

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Cosgar ParagonX 7841	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:16:00 - [1] - Quote Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7847	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:29:00 - [2] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves. But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7847	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:32:00 - [3] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? Cosgar, that is your stupidest argument you ever made. Taking away a class's means to defend itself in a FPS isn't a stupid idea? If this was such a great idea, wouldn't a dev had responded to one of the 5938745073405 nerf logi topics before this? Hell, they could've done this when they nerfed the CaLogi. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7852	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:00:00 - [4] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves. But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence? Your god mode is, as I keep saying, too self sufficient. Logi can't defend himself? That's a bad argument and you know it, if sidearms are so useless, why do they exist in the game in the first place? They are deadly, just less so than light weaponry. If you are running full proto equipment, I imagine that you are with a squad. Why is it that you are by yourself trying to fight the enemy in the scenario that you are depicting? More mod slots, more equipment, more CPU/PG, all at the expense of one sidearm. If sidearms are as useless as you depict them to be, then how is it balanced that logi's get all these extra bells and whistles at the loss of one measly little sidearm? Never said sidearms are useless. Hell, most of them are good enough to be primaries. I even run a sidearm from time to time when I need the extra CPU/PG for that extra triage hive in a domination match, or a fit to lay out a field of proximity mines. But should I have to all the time just because I can? I use mass drivers to disorient reds for my squad/team a TAC AR to pick off any would be flankers, and a standard AR when the above two aren't viable. Limiting the logistics (or any class for that matter) takes away the principle of versatility this game was supposed to offer. Ask any heavy if they like being shoved into their new role of point defense for example. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7853	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:21:00 - [5] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Never said sidearms are useless. Hell, most of them are good enough to be primaries. I even run a sidearm from time to time when I need the extra CPU/PG for that extra triage hive in a domination match, or a fit to lay out a field of proximity mines. But should I have to all the time just because I can? I use mass drivers to disorient reds for my squad/team a TAC AR to pick off any would be flankers, and a standard AR when the above two aren't viable. Limiting the logistics (or any class for that matter) takes away the principle of versatility this game was supposed to offer. Ask any heavy if they like being shoved into their new role of point defense for example. Is it limiting the role of the assault to not let him carry a heavy weapon? If no, then why is is limiting the logi by not letting him carry a light weapon? How limited would it be if we had ten different sidearms to choose from? You are seeing the game as it is now. I am seeing the game as it would be when all content is actually released. This is CCP, even if every single player in the entire game came into this thread and agreed with it, they wouldn't make the change until months from now, and we should have at least the Magsec by then, if not more. The versatility of this game is gimped by lack of content, let me assure you that there would be no lack of it in the future, limited to a sidearm or not. Assaults are the most flexible class when it comes to weapon choice. There's quite a few weapons logis wouldn't be caught dead with due to not having access to two weapons. Amarr logi is an exception, but they pay for it for lack of equipment. Even with a variety of sidearms, it's still restricting to be limited to one specific weapon type when every other suit in the game has a wider range. I think you have an issue with seeing the game as it is now. Trying to re-balance something on top of core mechanics imbalance is counter productive. Short TTK puts an emphasis on brick tanking which give logistics an advantage, but really not by much when an a weapon's average DPS matches or exceeds a suits average EHP in what's supposed to be a high health FPS to begin with. Fix the core, then focus on the rest. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7853	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:28:00 - [6] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Drop all dps by 10%, except maybe the HMG, and then give all assault suits an ADDITIONAL bonus of 1% per level (of assault suit) to their racial weapon dps. I think removing the option for a light weapon does take away from the sandbox feel. If I were developing a mid sized frame most of my EHP and CPU/PG would be very close with bonuses that make the frame better at one role or another. Where I think the logi frame messes up is with the equipment and the slots they are supposed to use. The repair tool and scanner should be a light weapon or sidearm. A rep tool bonus (Amarr) and a weapon slot tool encourages players to give up their weapon for a support tool and gain a bonus or use the suit as the assault suit and lose the abiltiy to rep. We need to hit the suits where it counts and that is the SP gained from wearing them. Make a suit used as intended more profitable than a suit that is performing out of its role. I don't want to lose the ability to use a logi as an assault but it shouldn't do well and I think that using a suit's set of bonuses as a guide to how it is supposed to be used it the best way to encourage suit roles. Make the suit really fu@#$ng good at what it does when the bonuses are used and not much better than a starter if not using them. The suit isn't what needs to be addressed, it is the tools and bonuses given while using those tools. The ability of the suit to make ISK,WP or SP should be hampered if the bonuses are not used. I am even up for removing the built in regen and replacing it with a needle that revives and 5% per level of armor revived. The suit should not stand there not fitted and be better than any other and the logi rep bonus does that. Make us logi use a slot for that repper and trade it with a needle. We can carry a better needle if we want more than the bonus gives. First they should reduce all DPS by 10% and drop an equipment slot or two; make scanners and rep tools use a weapon slot. Rethink all bonuses to all suits and use them to guide players in the suits role on the battlefield and make the use outside of that role difficult or only half as profitable. Finally pull all level based built in reps and replace them with a level based nanite injector. Biggest issue is the tagging system. When the CaLogi got nerfed, they hinted that the bonus system would get reworked for all classes and logistcis to better define their roles. That 1HP/s would probably be changed to something equipment oriented, which I'm fine with as long as it's not limited to a specific piece of equipment but something that can affect a wide variety, including what might be added in the game later. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7855	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:47:00 - [7] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? You're problem is in no way related to what I am suggesting. I never said anything about limiting light and heavy weapon slots, you are just saying random bull in a semi-reasonable manner to get people to agree with you and therefore keep your god-mode suit at power level 9001. I've used the suit. I understand how good it is. If not this nerf, it needs SOME kind of nerf. My "god mode" suit carries equipment expensive enough to pay for most prototype assault fittings, already has a limited variety of weapons to equip on the front line and has the worst base HP. (Even by logi standards since it's Minmatar) The logi suit is far from god mode. Let's see how many proto reppers, and triage hives get used when a logi can't defend themselves. But again, this isn't about logis. We have imbalanced core mechanics that makes a suit look like the end all be all on paper. Remember when the CaLogi was the best overall suit due to shield > armor imbalance? Now it's armor > shields and look at what suit is deemed OP now? Coincidence? ISK is not a balancing point. Base HP doesn't matter when you get more slots and 5hp/s on armor. Didn't say ISK was a balancing point, you did. But like everyone lately, you seem to come from the school of thought that the only module slots in this game available are shield extenders and armor plates. If this were the case, then sure logis would be OP, but it isn't. But let's see how much of a balancing aspect ISK might have in 1.7 FW. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7857	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:49:00 - [8] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? Cosgar, that is your stupidest argument you ever made. Taking away a class's means to defend itself in a FPS isn't a stupid idea? If this was such a great idea, wouldn't a dev had responded to one of the 5938745073405 nerf logi topics before this? Hell, they could've done this when they nerfed the CaLogi. But... If it only needed something for self defense, then an SMG would do... Unless of course you want to rush forward, which would require something more potent like an assault rifle ;) What about sitting behind a squad lobbing MD rounds or using a TAC AR? There's way to much emphasis on an easy mode weapon. Make it less easy mode and see how OP a logi really is. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7857	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:58:00 - [9] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar, I am not even sure if you tried a proto assault suit, and then compared it's racial counterpart to the logi. I have, and at least when it comes to the Gallente, it far outperforms the Assault. There is no ***** denying it, when my Logi can get 1.5x the armor of my assault, 3x damage mods, a duvolle, and in addition to that 4 equipment. My assault is limited to 2x damage mods, a GEK 38, and one equipment. That's *** dumb as . Same ** happened to the Caldari assault/logi. I'm telling you, it's not the suits, but core mechanic imbalance and lack of core content. You're ignoring the big picture and looking at little short term problems that could be fixed when the big ones are. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7863	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:09:00 - [10] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar, I am not even sure if you tried a proto assault suit, and then compared it's racial counterpart to the logi. I have, and at least when it comes to the Gallente, it far outperforms the Assault. There is no ***** denying it, when my Logi can get 1.5x the armor of my assault, 3x damage mods, a duvolle, and in addition to that 4 equipment. My assault is limited to 2x damage mods, a GEK 38, and one equipment. That's *** dumb as . Same ** happened to the Caldari assault/logi. I'm telling you, it's not the suits, but core mechanic imbalance and lack of core content. You're ignoring the big picture and looking at little short term problems that could be fixed when the big ones are. I have a friend who is like me but Amarr. He reports the same results. I have a friend with Minmatar stuff, and he reports similar results. This is accross the logi suits, not just the Gallente one. Also, what is the bigger picture? What is the core mechanic imbalance? I have a friend with both Minmatar logi and assault, he likes the assault more. I have afriend with both Amarr logi and assault, he likes them both given the situation. I have a friend with Gallente logi and assault... yeah, I can say the same anecdotal drivel too. If you haven't seen the complaints about ScRs, ARs, and TTK on here, are you living under a rock. Dust is pretty FUBAR right now and nerfing one suit isn't going to magically fix the core problem(s) by a country mile. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Cosgar ParagonX 7867	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:21:00 - [11] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar, I am not even sure if you tried a proto assault suit, and then compared it's racial counterpart to the logi. I have, and at least when it comes to the Gallente, it far outperforms the Assault. There is no ***** denying it, when my Logi can get 1.5x the armor of my assault, 3x damage mods, a duvolle, and in addition to that 4 equipment. My assault is limited to 2x damage mods, a GEK 38, and one equipment. That's *** dumb as . Same ** happened to the Caldari assault/logi. I'm telling you, it's not the suits, but core mechanic imbalance and lack of core content. You're ignoring the big picture and looking at little short term problems that could be fixed when the big ones are. I have a friend who is like me but Amarr. He reports the same results. I have a friend with Minmatar stuff, and he reports similar results. This is accross the logi suits, not just the Gallente one. Also, what is the bigger picture? What is the core mechanic imbalance? I have a friend with both Minmatar logi and assault, he likes the assault more. I have afriend with both Amarr logi and assault, he likes them both given the situation. I have a friend with Gallente logi and assault... yeah, I can say the same anecdotal drivel too. If you haven't seen the complaints about ScRs, ARs, and TTK on here, are you living under a rock. Dust is pretty FUBAR right now and nerfing one suit isn't going to magically fix the core problem(s) by a country mile. There are multiple problems to fix. Sure, TTK is low, but that doesn't change that logis were, and still are, the best suit. Also, I trust these people. Especially since the Gallente Logi beats the crap from the Gallente Assault, which leads me to believe the rest of the logis are similar. Minmatar assault/logi are both pretty middle of the road when it comes to dropsuits. Both are hurting right now since they have the lowest average EHP. Amar assault/logi have a really good thing going from what I've seen. Logi is viable on the frontline, but lacks the offensive bonuses that the assault has. In a way, Amarr don't really have a logistics suit. Both are just assaults with different slot layouts. Not sure about the Caldari. I see just as many of both classes and the assault has always been a solid suit. Only assault that has a huge disadvantage is the Gallente assault, but I'd rather see the assault touched before the logi. Shield bonus is about as useful as sharpshooter for nova knives. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7867	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:24:00 - [12] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: oh for the love of god not this again. We are COMBAT logistics. we should be able to defend ourselves, even at range. Were not as versatile as assaults and that is enough. If the rifles work as intended this will solve a lot of issues Defend? ok Beat the crap out of assaults in a straight up fight because of superior gear? **** no The proposed idea of sidearm only would work if this were a turn based MMO, but it's not. Dust is first and foremost an FPS. (Even though it doesn't feel like one at times.) I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7867	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:32:00 - [13] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: oh for the love of god not this again. We are COMBAT logistics. we should be able to defend ourselves, even at range. Were not as versatile as assaults and that is enough. If the rifles work as intended this will solve a lot of issues Defend? ok Beat the crap out of assaults in a straight up fight because of superior gear? **** no The proposed idea of sidearm only would work if this were a turn based MMO, but it's not. Dust is first and foremost an FPS. (Even though it doesn't feel like one at times.) How won't it work? Explain. You have a fricking automatic compact PDW that deals as much damage as an AR but just has less range with sidearms only. Is that not enough shooty? If sidearms are so great, why do so few assaults not use something above a toxin? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7868	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:48:00 - [14] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: To save on CPU/PG? We don't have the spare CPU/PG, unlike you. Then downgrade that Duvolle to a GEK and get a TT-3 or M209. Since they're good enough for logis to be limited to, it'd be worth giving up a proto weapon right? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7873	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:12:00 - [15] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: To save on CPU/PG? We don't have the spare CPU/PG, unlike you. Then downgrade that Duvolle to a GEK and get a TT-3 or M209. Since they're good enough for logis to be limited to, it'd be worth giving up a proto weapon right? I'm already using a GEK? :X Then downgrade the GEK to a standard. Remember sidearms are so great, logis will be limited to them. Is that not shooty enough for you? Edit: If this does ever happen, let me respec all my light weapon SP into a scrambler pistol and give kb/m raw input. Let's see how man nerf logi topics come up then. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7873	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:25:00 - [16] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: To save on CPU/PG? We don't have the spare CPU/PG, unlike you. Then downgrade that Duvolle to a GEK and get a TT-3 or M209. Since they're good enough for logis to be limited to, it'd be worth giving up a proto weapon right? I'm already using a GEK? :X None of us is going to argue that the SMG is as good as the AR in every situation, and that is the point Cosgar. By limiting logistics suits to a light weapon we are restricting them to a weapon that excels at CQC but is lacking in aggressive long range combat ability. Assaults typically use a toxin (even on their proto suits) because of fitting issues even with maxed out electronics and engineering. Since assaults need to be able to engage enemies at all ranges they need a high power med range weapon (AR or SCR being the most common of these). The side arm is a back up for use in CQC combat only in the case of the Assault suit. Now a Logi with a proto SMG will be a beast to deal with in CQC but assaults would have a range advantage with their AR. This means that while the Logi will still be able to kill it will be limited to doing so in specific situations. Instead of running into combat at the front of the pack Logis would have to hang back a bit, support their squad, and cover the rear. All roles the SMG and other side arms are suited for. Assault suit bonus: CPU/PG fitting reduction to all weapons and weapon mods. Assaults get access to better firepower, logis keep their survivability at the cost of less firepower. Sidearms stop being underrated and everyone can STFU about suits so we can ***** about TTK until CCP fixes it. Done and done. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7876	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:32:00 - [17] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Cosgar wrote: Assault suit bonus: CPU/PG fitting reduction to all weapons and weapon mods. Assaults get access to better firepower, logis keep their survivability at the cost of less firepower. Sidearms stop being underrated and everyone can STFU about suits so we can *** about TTK until CCP fixes it. Done and done. Gallente Assaults already have a bonus like this for all light weapons and it doesn't make it so I can fit a decent side arm or a logi-like tank. I don't think this will solve the problem. And limiting the most SP and ISK intensive suit class to only 2 viable weapons with massive drawbacks in a FPS is? Logis are more than worth the SP investment. The other suits need to be as well before we touch logistics again. Also, core problems need to be addressed for better balancing. They jumped the gun on the flaylock nerf and now it's barely good at prototype. Let's not do this to an entire suit class we're going to need more than ever in FW next patch. Unless some of the assaults on here want to put down their militia nanohives and carry injectors. Quote:** Edit: How much of a bonus were you thinking? Too much and the Assault players would have proto in every slot (which would make us way OP) too little and it won't make any difference at all. Depends, how much do you think is needed? The idea is for assaults to get something to better reinforce their offensive role better, keep in mind this includes grenades too. Also, give Gallente assault -2% movement penalty per level or +2% plate efficacy per level to give it a better advantage over the logi. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7877	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:43:00 - [18] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Cosgar wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: Cosgar wrote: Assault suit bonus: CPU/PG fitting reduction to all weapons and weapon mods. Assaults get access to better firepower, logis keep their survivability at the cost of less firepower. Sidearms stop being underrated and everyone can STFU about suits so we can ***** about TTK until CCP fixes it. Done and done. Gallente Assaults already have a bonus like this for all light weapons and it doesn't make it so I can fit a decent side arm or a logi-like tank. I don't think this will solve the problem. And limiting the most SP and ISK intensive suit class to only 2 viable weapons with massive drawbacks in a FPS is? Logis are more than worth the SP investment. The other suits need to be as well before we touch logistics again. Also, core problems need to be addressed for better balancing. They jumped the gun on the flaylock nerf and now it's barely good at prototype. Let's not do this to an entire suit class we're going to need more than ever in FW next patch. Unless some of the assaults on here want to put down their militia nanohives and carry injectors. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. On these points. The SMG and the Scrambler Pistol would be the only two real options at this point., we have a while to go before we get the other side arms I fear, and this would be rather limiting for the logi players. What I'm looking for isn't a nerf for logistics players. I want all the classes to be balanced. If that means increasing the usability of all the classes, great. If it means decreasing the power of one, that is fine too. The only reason we are having this discussion is to go into depth about one possible way to add more balance to all the classes by addressing one class. There are certainly other ways this balance could be obtained and I don't think any of us who is in favor of this change to Logi's would be opposed to discussing any of those other balancing methods. Start a thread Cosgar. Lets talk about class balance as a whole since clearly you feel like we are attacking you with our conversation being directed at how to rebalance via the logistics class. What's the point of starting another thread? It's just going to turn into another 10+ page nerf logi thread just like every one before it. Besides, I'd rather talk about core mechanics that are stopping people from wanting to play. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7878	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:51:00 - [19] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Cosgar wrote: What's the point of starting another thread? It's just going to turn into another 10+ page nerf logi thread just like every one before it. Besides, I'd rather talk about core mechanics that are stopping people from wanting to play. Maybe this is wrongheaded of me but I feel like class imbalances are on of the core mechanics that is stopping people from wanting to play. That is just my 2 isk though. Think of why this topic exists right now. This isn't about a logi with a mass driver. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7878	Posted - 2013.11.17 23:02:00 - [20] - Quote SgtDoughnut wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Atiim wrote: Pwease don't take away my crutch I never at any point said logi's need to be at the back repping. I have used sidearms and they are far more powerful that people give them credit for, logi's would in no way be useless in combat. Ask Cat Merc what he thinks of 'not being able to do everything at once,' because I'm pretty sure he did the math and found Gal logi can brick tank plus damage stack, that's doing two things at once that the assault could only do one at a time. If sidearms are so strong then, how would this fix anything at all. If they are just as viable as lights this wouldn't fix anything. Holy shi- I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Cosgar ParagonX 7878	Posted - 2013.11.17 23:20:00 - [21] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: IMO the best way to balance logis is: 1-Give them THE EXACT same amount of high and low slots as Assaults.The extra CPU-PG is for equipment,not Assault mode. 2-Change their bonus to the Gallente logi bonus: -Logi default bonus: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on equipment Specific racial: -GAllente Logi: +1 Armor rep per level (so this one stays the same) -Cal Logi:15% Shield regen rate per level (For a maximum of +75% = 35 Shield per sec) -Amarr Logi: 5% CPU-PG cost reduction on Active Scanners and Drop Uplinks per level -Minmatar Logi: 5% Hacking speed per level I might even post this with its own thread later.... What about Minmatar logi? It has a far different slot layout from the assault. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7881	Posted - 2013.11.18 00:29:00 - [22] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: My position: This is a horrible idea. My logic: It's overly restrictive and NOT fun. I win. Seriously. The logi suit needs a specific loadout requirement similar to the current loadout requirement for all classes, which is that a weapon be on every valid loadout. In other words, in similar fashion, the logi suit must utilize all of the equipment slots in order for it to be a valid, deployable loadout. Yes, I can already hear you saying "but faux logis will easily get around this by equipping 3 compact hives at 10 CPU and 2 PG a piece." Start there. Observe. Reevaluate. If that doesn't do the trick, then consider a minimum CPU total for equipment on proto suits to something like 100 CPU. Any proto logi worth his salt has at least that much equipment on his suit. Reduced figures could be set for advanced and standard logi suits. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. This "problem" deserves a smart solution, not a horrible uber nerf to every logis offensive capabilities. You can't penalize one class without penalizing them all. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7881	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:13:00 - [23] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Well HERE IT IS , a balancing idea im pretty sure ALL Logis will agree on, without the need to loose the right to use a Light weapon. please read and comment. BTW, sidearm only logis is not a very good idea thou... :3 So your idea is to take a class that is designed on the idea of trading base stats and offensive capabilities for equipment and customization instead of completely ignoring the core issues that make anything other than shield extenders and armor plates completely useless? Ask yourself a serous question, would you put 5 levels into any of those 4 logistics suits? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7882	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:24:00 - [24] - Quote hgghyujh wrote: Cosgar wrote: Then limit light weapon slots to light weapons and heavy slots to heavy weapons. Hey, while we're at it, make all module slots specific to a certain module. Let's kill all of the sandbox character creation ideas behind Dust 514 and shove each suit into cookie cutter fits. You see my point? nope you are comparing apples to arseholes This whole logi vs assault thing started over the idea that logis can remove their equipment and get extra tank to be a better assault. If that's the case, why hasn't anyone complained about heavies with ARs. The get the extra tank and a sidearm. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7884	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:35:00 - [25] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Well HERE IT IS , a balancing idea im pretty sure ALL Logis will agree on, without the need to loose the right to use a Light weapon. please read and comment. BTW, sidearm only logis is not a very good idea thou... :3 So your idea is to take a class that is designed on the idea of trading base stats and offensive capabilities for equipment and customization instead of completely ignoring the core issues that make anything other than shield extenders and armor plates completely useless? Ask yourself a serous question, would you put 5 levels into any of those 4 logistics suits? ''So your idea is to take a class that is designed on the idea of trading base stats and offensive capabilities for equipment and customization instead '' THis phrase is complete bull: GÖª Trading base stats? Ok i would take that as a good reasoning,but at the moment the differences in ''base stats' are minimal. take away 40 total EHP, and 1 SPRT speed from all logis ad THEN say you are trading base stats. GÖªOffensive capabilities? While its true 3 out of 4 logis LAC sidearm, the fat the can equip 3-4 compelx damage mods and STILL be able to have over 700 HP is proof they are not lacking in offensive capabilities as many ''dont nerf my cruch''-logis claim. So overall. Base stats differences are minimal, Logis have more offensive capabilities, DPS wise. AND get more Equipment and Customization. '' Ask yourself a serous question, would you put 5 levels into any of those 4 logistics suits?'' Well yeah. I would.I made that post with this on Mind actually. Whats the big deal? You are trading 1 slot for better equipment and Better Logi bonuses. The fact people are disgusted with the idea proves most logis just want slots to assault/tank,and make me wonder if we really DO deserve a visit from the good old Nerf hammer. Punishment for being close minded selfish basterds.... There's no facts, just a bunch of people sitting back and playing armchair developer, looking at spread sheets and pretending they know everything. With your proposed changes, nobody would play logistics, including the ones that play it to support their team. It completely destroys any survivability the suit needs to help their team on the front lines. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7884	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:36:00 - [26] - Quote Kasira Vorrikesh wrote: I've often thought to myself (without expressing it until now) that Logistics having only a sidearm would be fair, so I agree here. Also I agree on increasing their speed and stamina and equipment slots; all sounds like a fair trade-off, and more importantly, sounds much more like the Logistics class should be. The loss of a light weapon (I don't agree with Amarr being allowed to keep one; maybe give them two Sidearm slots instead of one) and slight loss of base HP in exchange for more equipment would also seem to make sense from an in-game design standpoint (though between the Commando and Scout, I wonder if in-game logic is that sound to begin with...). Using EVE for analogy: as far as I understand it, EVE logistics ships are not (possibly never) used as assault ships; it's almost impossible to use them more successfully than a ship intended for pure combat, so why should Dust's support class be any different? In EVE, Caldari are about as slow as Amarr, if not slower. See if any Caldari assault want to waddle around at the speed of a heavy. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7885	Posted - 2013.11.18 01:56:00 - [27] - Quote hgghyujh wrote: Have you ever used a sidearm as a primary??? cause let me tell you they are powerful as **, your only limitation is range, which is a non issue if you are moving with a group as support, your group takes a lot of heat and you can still be as deadly as the guy next to you, you need to kill some one to pick a team mate up you can still do that. SgtDoughnut wrote:** If sidearms are so strong then, how would this fix anything at all. If they are just as viable as lights this wouldn't fix anything. And so I'm not just empty quoting, I use both SMG and ScP when I need to for higher tier equipment options. If this game was nothing but enclosed CoD style maps, it might make sense, but look at all the open fields and how well the mass driver works as a support weapon. This is still a FPS and you still got to kill the guy shooting at you, even if it's to raise the assault that wants you nerfed. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7888	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:00:00 - [28] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: There's no facts, just a bunch of people sitting back and playing armchair developer, looking at spread sheets and pretending they know everything. With your proposed changes, nobody would play logistics, including the ones that play it to support their team. It completely destroys any survivability the suit needs to help their team on the front lines. You want facts? The Logi suit is OP. It needs a NERF,not even a gentle rebalance like the one i proposed. you want Facts? After watching most videos regarding the Squad tournament; 90% Of the players were using Pro Logi suits. The Highest amount of proto suits is, guess what? yeah LOGI suits. and believe me, ITS NOT BECAUSE ALL OF THEM ARE SUPPORT. LOL no, Most of them are using them as modded Scouts, Or Assaults with more HP and the capacity to spam uplings and carry A.Scanners at the same time. The suit is broken and its sad that people hold on to their ''crutch'' so tightly... Fact, you're simply using bold text, ad hominem, and anecdotal observations to sell an argument. You're not the first one to do this because they disagree with me but others did a better job. You want to talk facts, show me some hard supported data. If you want to use power text and imaginary numbers, you're wasting my time. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7888	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:08:00 - [29] - Quote RydogV wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: There's no facts, just a bunch of people sitting back and playing armchair developer, looking at spread sheets and pretending they know everything. With your proposed changes, nobody would play logistics, including the ones that play it to support their team. It completely destroys any survivability the suit needs to help their team on the front lines. You want facts? The Logi suit is OP. It needs a NERF,not even a gentle rebalance like the one i proposed. you want Facts? After watching most videos regarding the Squad tournament; 90% Of the players were using Pro Logi suits. The Highest amount of proto suits is, guess what? yeah LOGI suits. and believe me, ITS NOT BECAUSE ALL OF THEM ARE SUPPORT. LOL no, Most of them are using them as modded Scouts, Or Assaults with more HP and the capacity to spam uplings and carry A.Scanners at the same time. The suit is broken and its sad that people hold on to their ''crutch'' so tightly... You call it a crutch. Maybe it is for those that wish to abuse the class. But most of the hubbub out there refers to the so-called "Assault' Logi. But instead of addressing the real issue, it is 'cut off the head of all Logis' to cure the cancer. That is beyond foolish. The key to pushing Logistics back to where it was intended is not about nerfing the suit, it is about enhancing Assault to a place that makes it the preferred platform for frontline combat. Give it the bonuses it deserves to fight the good fight and make modules like Damages Mods, less effective to keep them the premiere warfighter. Weak Logi does not equal balance or even strong Assault. It just equals weak support for all classes. And every team is only as strong as the weakest link. #ThinkAboutIt So make assaults better at killing than logistics could even think of being? Gee, why hasn't anyone else thought of that yet? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7888	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:25:00 - [30] - Quote hgghyujh wrote: assualt were that then logi's got some major rework done on them and...........you can keep buffing the **** out of every thing, or you can rebalanced them, the assualt doesn't need a buff, the logi needs to not be the most capable at everything. You can't just cry power creep when a class isn't worth the SP investment. For the same prerequisites the assault only gets a shield bonus and racial bonus on a medium suit compared to logistics that get a completely different slot layout compared to a medium suit. Assaults aren't worth the SP unless you want to save some money when you die. Every class suit should be worth the SP you put into it and should have bonuses worth skilling into. Hell, just making assaults into the basic medium would be a huge improvement. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Cosgar ParagonX 7889	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:42:00 - [31] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: I abuse the logi as an ASsault ver.2 If you read MY THREAD you'll see im not ''cutting'' off any suit. Its a sensible way to balance them while still regaining most of their qualities. No matter how much you shamelessly promote that topic, it's still a heavy handed nerf to people that do play logistics to support their team just because one suit is overpowered due to broken core mechanics. Remember when shields > armor and the CaLogi was OP? Now it's armor > shields and the GaLogi is the OP one. It's not the slots, it's imbalanced game mechanics. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7889	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:53:00 - [32] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: Fact, you're simply using bold text, ad hominem, and anecdotal observations to sell an argument. You're not the first one to do this because they disagree with me but others did a better job. You want to talk facts, show me some hard supported data. If you want to use power text and imaginary numbers, you're wasting my time. You are simply using big words to sound smart. But in the end,you aren't providing ANY facts yourself on why the suits are ''balanced'' LOL Not even the OP decided to use facts. Hell, there's only one person out of this entire topic that decided to break it down, but not even the OP, of whom the post was directed at decided to respond. You want facts? This topic is just another virtual lynch mob like the many before it. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7889	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:55:00 - [33] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: I abuse the logi as an ASsault ver.2 If you read MY THREAD you'll see im not ''cutting'' off any suit. Its a sensible way to balance them while still regaining most of their qualities. No matter how much you shamelessly promote that topic, it's still a heavy handed nerf to people that do play logistics to support their team just because one suit is overpowered due to broken core mechanics. Remember when shields > armor and the CaLogi was OP? Now it's armor > shields and the GaLogi is the OP one. It's not the slots, it's imbalanced game mechanics. Even if i agree with the imbalanced game mechanics part,i dont really think its a Heavy handed nerf. While i AM removing a slot from every suit.i am giving back CPU to the cal, Pg and dual tanking capabilities to the amarr..and something else: The Cal logis is still as powerful as ever,being able to Out DPS or Out Tank a Gal logi. The real advantage of the gal logi is abusing equipment,thing in my post i specified should be the default LOGI bonus.... Where are you getting this imaginary DPS from? Does a logi suit have some hidden damage bonus that I don't know about? Oh, you must mean damage mods. Since every suit has access to damage mods and stacking penalties only make them so useful after a certain amount, you point is moot. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7889	Posted - 2013.11.18 02:58:00 - [34] - Quote Leithe Askarii wrote: I cannot understand why no one in the game feels like the dropsuits should fill niche roles...... There's fulfilling a role, being shoehorned into a role, and being completely stripped of any means to defend yourself. Skills and gear should dictate what your role is, not a bunch of people in a 10+ page circle jerk. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7890	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:00:00 - [35] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: ''Not even the OP decided to use facts.'' Neither are you.So dont request FACTS while you wont provide them yourself. At least i have common knowledge on my side. Everybody knows that what i was saying was the truth. Proto logis are the most seen/used dropsuits, for a reason.They fulfill any role easily. on another note:That person you say he ''BROKE IT DOWN'' did it incorrectly. Since the Logis can Fit Only armor plates to max tank armor and they STILL have 5HP per sec repair, AND slots to include (R) nanohives. No assault will EVER use a suit without repairers, so the HP difference in EVERY case, is actually BIGGER,while doing the specified job BETTER . Well, he did challenge anyone to refute his data. Go ahead and have a crack at it. I'm not buying your make believe logi census. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7892	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:13:00 - [36] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: The problem with Logis isn't their weapon. It's their ability to single-handedly outperform the Assault suit in almost every aspect. The 5 HP/s regen coupled with having 2x the fitting potential AND carry 3-4 equipment is what makes them function as Super Assaults. We need to take baby steps to fix this. First, get rid of the 5 HP/s like they've said they would months ago and give them a proper Logi bonus. Get rid of the blanket 10% damage buff from Uprising 1.0 and give the Assault suit a 2% per level damage bonus. That way the bonus is actually useful to ALL Assault suits and not just shield-tankers. Hmmm.... Perhaps instead of a 2% bonus to Damage, how about a 5% decrease to Weapon fitting? More Fitting resources, more tank mods, more assaulting. But yeah, +1 How come when I said almost the exact same thing, you vehemently disagreed? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7893	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:18:00 - [37] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: Where are you getting this imaginary DPS from? Does a logi suit have some hidden damage bonus that I don't know about? Oh, you must mean damage mods. Since every suit has access to damage mods and stacking penalties only make them so useful after a certain amount, you point is moot. BUT ITS NOT and you know it. ''Well, he did challenge anyone to refute his data. Go ahead and have a crack at it.'' Im on it. Imagine the following: ASsault Gk.0 ( A REALIST fitting,not the ones proposed by your friend there, without armor reps LOL) 3 Cx damage mods Complex armor rep Complex armor plates Enh Armor plates Duvolle (at prof 5 hitting around 54.5) Shields 150, Armor 680,(Total EHP 830)Speed:6.6,CPU/PG left: 38CPU/4PG,Armor rep:6.25 per sec Now look at the logi, fulfilling the SAME DPS role: Logi Gk.0 3 Cx damage mods 4 Cx Armor plates 1 Enh Armor plate Duvolle (Prof 5 hitting 54.5) Shields 112,Armor 940 (total 1052),Speed 6.15,CPU/PG left: 122 CPU/11PG (Enough to fit AT LEAST a Quantum active scanner.locus grenades,and 2 compact nanohives),Armor rep:5 per sec Now is it 0.45 sprt speed ,a little more stamina and a STD sidearm worth 222 HP and enough CPU and PG to fit a Scanner plus compact nanos to repair? I think not. Hell, Most good players think not.... Yeah, Cosgar, I think you got outgunned. The Logi moves a bit slower, but, since both speed tanking is dead, and you can spawn a LAV wherever you want, That really doesn't make that big a difference. Still only going to survive a 1v1 encounter, maybe 2 if you have enough time to use up those compact hives. Also, stop bringing up the LAV, some people still carry AV grenades and a forge gunner will always be out there. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7899	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:53:00 - [38] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Cosgar wrote: Still only going to survive a 1v1 encounter, maybe 2 if you have enough time to use up those compact hives. . Thats the thing. It SURVIVES.It Wins.STILL you say? What the point of playing a FPS if its not Killing your opponent and Surviving? .all this While the assault is failing at what hes supposed to do best. The logi might be designed for adaptability, but the assaults are designed for ASSAULTING mostly,and they are being outdone by logis in every corner. Players constantly flocking to the Logi side to be better assaults or scouts like myself are proof. Simple question. Without simply trying to nerf another class, what would make assaults and scouts more attractive? Focus on that instead of limiting logistics, punishing people that don't abuse broken game mechanics. Hell, fix broken mechanics like armor/shield imbalance, TTK, and the absence of strafing before you touch another game mechanic that looks better on paper because nothing else does. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7912	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:53:00 - [39] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Why don't I need a light weapon? This is simple. My work is to keep my teammate alive. If I cannot do this then I am no logi. Every engagement, every battle comes down to communication and having a partner with which you can refine your tactics. I have a partner and together we have a very different play style than most would think. First off we take it slow. We use cover. He doesn't run off like a crazy person trying to get kills. The goal is to win not to get KDR as high as he can. Second we communicate. As I have my rep tool on him 24/7 he has to guard me. I am his lifeline and he is mine. In no moment does my Light weapon come into the equation. HE IS MY WEAPON. True logi's look at a post like this and the only thing thy see is, as the OP hinted to, all my wasted SP into light weaponry and they would be correct to care about that. But a true logi doesn't give a rats ass about his weapon because Like i said earlier "YOUR PARTNER IS YOUR WEAPON" Then "True" Logis are bad. Good Logis know to kill the enemy before you rez/revive, and killing the enemy takes priority since you're not helping anyone dead or with an enemy shooting at you when you're rezzing. Why? Because DPS speed > Rez speed. See, this is kind of the issue with the whole sidearm argument. Would you rather have a guy that can fight along side you and run support, or a guy that can't really do anything unless you take damage, run out of ammo or go down? Dust is still a FPS (even though it doesn't feel like one at times) and we're all slayers first and class roles second. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7912	Posted - 2013.11.18 06:06:00 - [40] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Hello cosgar. I actually have to disagree with you in this one. People think that just because you can only use a side arm you can't fight alongside. I think that train of thought is wrong. A sidearm can give support fore and with the new repair tool stats there is literally nothing that can kill my pet. Let's say I just use a BDR-8 triage repair tool. With the correct gameplay I will have kept my teammate alive and will have doubled our warpoint gain. I can tell you this, and you can ask anyone that squads with me on a regular basis. IT can be done. Just as I made the plasma cannon on my signature usefull, being a pure logi build without enfassis on weaponry is actually a force multiplier not a a drop in dps. While me and my mates are chipping away at their armor while mainting our ours intact we get through things that couldnt be done otherwise. It all depends on the logi and their playstyle. You know I favor the mass driver in most cases, but I also use the GLU-5 on more wide open maps and a SMG/ScP in situations where it's more beneficial to run all proto equipment. Every situation is different and a wider variety of weapons is more beneficial than being restricted to a certain range or a certain playstyle. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Cosgar ParagonX 7913	Posted - 2013.11.18 06:38:00 - [41] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Cosgar wrote: It all depends on the logi and their playstyle. You know I favor the mass driver in most cases, but I also use the GLU-5 on more wide open maps and a SMG/ScP in situations where it's more beneficial to run all proto equipment. Every situation is different and a wider variety of weapons is more beneficial than being restricted to a certain range or a certain playstyle. I completely agree but we have our variety from what we can do on the field not by how we can kill. kiling variations belongs to assaults who can mostly only kill. Currently I am dead tired of seeing logi's everywhere and no nanohives, reps, uplinks, etc. Having more slot layout, more CPU/PWGRD whilst having the same killing power than assault breaks the system. Cosgar, you know I am a logi. I used to use the mass driver but switched to the plasma cannon on a logi. If that weapon doesn't prove that a logi can use a side arm then nothing will make a believer out of anyone. As things stands the logi suit is in real danger of having something worse happen to it than get their weapons restricted to sidearms. I for one don't wan't that to happen. I hear a lot of crazy talk being thrown around and I for one feel that being restricted to a side arm is much better than having my overall slot layout reduced or something like that. Given that outside of visible health bars, CCP hasn't said anything logi related since 1.3, I think we're safe. If changes need to be made though, the other suits should be touched and brought up to logistics level of attractiveness instead of the other way around. Just look at what an assault suit gets compared to a logistics when you look at the basic medium. Logis are an entirely different class and assaults keep the same base stats but different bonuses. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

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