DUST Search - [Discussion] The sidearm-only logi argument.

Cosgar wrote:

Mobius Kaethis wrote:

Cosgar wrote:

Assault suit bonus: CPU/PG fitting reduction to all weapons and weapon mods. Assaults get access to better firepower, logis keep their survivability at the cost of less firepower. Sidearms stop being underrated and everyone can STFU about suits so we can ***** about TTK until CCP fixes it. Done and done.

Gallente Assaults already have a bonus like this for all light weapons and it doesn't make it so I can fit a decent side arm or a logi-like tank. I don't think this will solve the problem.

And limiting the most SP and ISK intensive suit class to only 2 viable weapons with massive drawbacks in a FPS is? Logis are more than worth the SP investment. The other suits need to be as well before we touch logistics again. Also, core problems need to be addressed for better balancing. They jumped the gun on the flaylock nerf and now it's barely good at prototype. Let's not do this to an entire suit class we're going to need more than ever in FW next patch. Unless some of the assaults on here want to put down their militia nanohives and carry injectors. Roll


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Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 939	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:26:00 - [1] - Quote I kind of imagine the two options as looking like this. Option 1: All logistics suits trade their light weapon slots for side arm slots with the exception of the Amarr logi which keeps the light weapon thus retaining its "assault like" capabilities. The Amarr logi would have the additional requirement of having to fill its equipment slots to help retain balance with the other logi suits (more versatile but less able and all that). To make this option more palatable logistics suits would have to provide a large bonus to equipment usage. Option 2: All logistics suits provide a -20% bonus to weapon damage (not just light weapon damage). This penalty is reduced by skilling into logistics suits by 3% per level, leaving proto-logis with a 5% reduction in damage output. This penalty reduction would need to be paired with a small per level bonus that increases ability with equipment in some way. Option 3: Require logistics suits to fill all their equipment slots. No other changes needed for this balancing option. Using the above options as a basis for comparison of the ideas it would seem that option 2 provides more flexibility to logistics players which they will enjoy but still makes them less efficient than assaults at killing. Option one on the other hand reduces character flexibility but would force more of a support style of play since being aggressive would not be a very successful strategy for most players (except for those who are amazing at getting head shots with the scrambler pistol). This rebalancing method would probably frustrate a lot of logistics players who have put skills into light weapons and would probably necessitate a partial skill refunding for logistics only players. The third option seems to be the one that is most palatable for logistics players as it results in very few changes to how their skills work but does restrict their fitting options in a way that would reduce their combat efficiency. It would also probably be the simplest change for CCP to code. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 942	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:32:00 - [2] - Quote A good player will always recognize when there is an issue with their class of choice and try to recommend a fix. I for one applaud Logi Bro for trying to make this game better even though in doing so he will make it harder for himself. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 943	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:49:00 - [3] - Quote Atiim wrote: I believe that Assault suits simply need more slots. But sidearms only? He is an idiot. The issue with that approach is that once you give the assaults more high/low slots you're also going to have to boost the slot count on heavies and scouts as well as all of those classes cpu/pg to make the slots useful. That is a lot more in the way of changes then just altering the logistics suit. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 943	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:56:00 - [4] - Quote Atiim wrote: Scouts? They already needed more slots and CPU/PG to being with. I certainly can't disagree with you on that matter. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 946	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:22:00 - [5] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: Not going to lie.....I would cry if my amarr logi was restricted to sidearms. If I'm being restricted to sidearms. Than assaults get no grenades. I don't think the side arm only restriction should apply to Amarr logi's since they are supposed to be logi-assaults. They should just have some other restriction placed upon them to force them to use equipment as well. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 948	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:48:00 - [6] - Quote Good point Cat Merc. Side arms are potent PDW (personal defense weapons) in in close quarters the SMG will frequently own an AR. Especially the assault SMG, that thing is a beast. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 948	Posted - 2013.11.17 21:20:00 - [7] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: There are multiple problems to fix. Sure, TTK is low, but that doesn't change that logis were, and still are, the best suit. Also, I trust these people. Especially since the Gallente Logi beats the crap from the Gallente Assault, which leads me to believe the rest of the logis are similar. It is the EHP that makes the Gallente Logi so superiour to the Gallente Assault. In one-v-one combat those extra 300 hp the Gal logi can pack make it hard as hell to take down for a Gal Assault. I only say this because I run Gal Assault and end up in these kinds of conflicts regularly. The assault will win if he gets the drop on the logi (assuming similar player skill and SP) but if they both start shooting at the same time the logi will definitely win. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 950	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:18:00 - [8] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: To save on CPU/PG? We don't have the spare CPU/PG, unlike you. Then downgrade that Duvolle to a GEK and get a TT-3 or M209. Since they're good enough for logis to be limited to, it'd be worth giving up a proto weapon right? I'm already using a GEK? :X None of us is going to argue that the SMG is as good as the AR in every situation, and that is the point Cosgar. By limiting logistics suits to a light weapon we are restricting them to a weapon that excels at CQC but is lacking in aggressive long range combat ability. Assaults typically use a toxin (even on their proto suits) because of fitting issues even with maxed out electronics and engineering. Since assaults need to be able to engage enemies at all ranges they need a high power med range weapon (AR or SCR being the most common of these). The side arm is a back up for use in CQC combat only in the case of the Assault suit. Now a Logi with a proto SMG will be a beast to deal with in CQC but assaults would have a range advantage with their AR. This means that while the Logi will still be able to kill it will be limited to doing so in specific situations. Instead of running into combat at the front of the pack Logis would have to hang back a bit, support their squad, and cover the rear. All roles the SMG and other side arms are suited for. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 950	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:20:00 - [9] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Edit: If this does ever happen, let me respec all my light weapon SP into a scrambler pistol and give kb/m raw input. Let's see how man nerf logi topics come up then. KBM does have raw input. Its turn speed limits were removed in 1.6. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 950	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:27:00 - [10] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Assault suit bonus: CPU/PG fitting reduction to all weapons and weapon mods. Assaults get access to better firepower, logis keep their survivability at the cost of less firepower. Sidearms stop being underrated and everyone can STFU about suits so we can ***** about TTK until CCP fixes it. Done and done. Gallente Assaults already have a bonus like this for all light weapons and it doesn't make it so I can fit a decent side arm or a logi-like tank. I don't think this will solve the problem. In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long

Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 951	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:39:00 - [11] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: Cosgar wrote: Assault suit bonus: CPU/PG fitting reduction to all weapons and weapon mods. Assaults get access to better firepower, logis keep their survivability at the cost of less firepower. Sidearms stop being underrated and everyone can STFU about suits so we can ***** about TTK until CCP fixes it. Done and done. Gallente Assaults already have a bonus like this for all light weapons and it doesn't make it so I can fit a decent side arm or a logi-like tank. I don't think this will solve the problem. And limiting the most SP and ISK intensive suit class to only 2 viable weapons with massive drawbacks in a FPS is? Logis are more than worth the SP investment. The other suits need to be as well before we touch logistics again. Also, core problems need to be addressed for better balancing. They jumped the gun on the flaylock nerf and now it's barely good at prototype. Let's not do this to an entire suit class we're going to need more than ever in FW next patch. Unless some of the assaults on here want to put down their militia nanohives and carry injectors. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you on these points. The SMG and the Scrambler Pistol would be the only two real options at this point, we have a while to go before we get the other side arms I fear, and this would be rather limiting for the logi players. What I'm looking for isn't a nerf for logistics players. I want all the classes to be balanced. If that means increasing the usability of all the classes, great. If it means decreasing the power of one, that is fine too. The only reason we are having this discussion is to go into depth about one possible way to add more balance to all the classes by addressing one class. There are certainly other ways this balance could be obtained and I don't think any of us who is in favor of this change to Logi's would be opposed to discussing any of those other balancing methods. Start a thread Cosgar. Lets talk about class balance as a whole since clearly you feel like we are attacking you with our conversation being directed at how to rebalance via the logistics class. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 951	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:41:00 - [12] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: And what about combat engineers, field mechanics, communications experts, demolitions specialists? What about all those logi suits who's primary goal isn't his equipment? All of the roles you just mentioned would be equipment focused roles in DUST. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 951	Posted - 2013.11.17 22:47:00 - [13] - Quote Cosgar wrote: What's the point of starting another thread? It's just going to turn into another 10+ page nerf logi thread just like every one before it. Besides, I'd rather talk about core mechanics that are stopping people from wanting to play. Maybe this is wrongheaded of me but I feel like class imbalances are on of the core mechanics that is stopping people from wanting to play. That is just my 2 isk though. Fun > Realism