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Adipem Nothi wrote:

Cross Atu wrote:

Pseudogenesis wrote:

What do you guys think about just nerfing the shotgun? I hate to do it, really, but it seems like the only commonality with regards to the balance problem we're discussing. Cloaks aren't the problem, scouts aren't the problem, tanked scouts aren't the problem, but the shotgun is the focal point of it all. Nerfing any of the others would have too much of a ripple effect on other roles. I don't think the shotgun is the problem itself, but nerfing it seems like the fastest and least intrusive way of eliminating the problem.

All this ends justify means stuff makes me feel icky though :( Balancing Dust is hard

From what you guys are hearing how would a further decloak delay on fire effect things?
I know there are currently tech issues barring this but I think they might be being looked into further and if that would solve the problem I'd hate to see something else nerffed if it weren't needed.
Thoughts?

We're on the same page ... that's why I had asked about the possibility of extending SG raise time.

Presently, draw shotgun / decloak / fire all happen close to simultaneously. If raise time (or whatever its called) on the Shotgun were longer, draw weapon would immediately deactivate cloak, but there'd be a brief delay prior to fire. Add more noise to decloak, and you'll find far fewer scouts rushing like Rambo.

I think it'd solve cloak+shotgun, without detracting from either element.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4036	Posted - 2014.10.10 21:32:00 - [23311] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: but nerfing it seems like the fastest and least intrusive way of eliminating the problem. I'm afraid this idea is what caused much of Dusts balance issues. Flaylocks, Laser Rifles, Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles, Swarm launchers, Heavy suits, Scout suits, Assault suits, Logi suits and Mass Drivers were all victims of this line of thought at some point . And there's probably more from before me. (Scouts being one example, I'm just basing that part off what I've heard) I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 267	Posted - 2014.10.10 21:48:00 - [23312] - Quote Can I just say I am against nerfs to cloaks, such as reduction to scan range whilst cloaked. I will also reiterate that I am against any EWAR changes as it is likely to screw things up more than improve anything. If scouts need a nerf I would either focus on tanking. For example increasing plate penalties on scouts and reducing shield regen. Or focus on shotguns if they are part of the problem. Don't nerf them, just repurpose them by reducing alpha and increasing range, making them less powerful in the hands of a cloaked EWAR scout. Seems to me people are still taking up assault suits following the buff. I think it is still too soon to say whether scouts need further nerfs. From my experience of pub matches things seem quite balanced. Apparently assault suit uptake is on the increase in PC, with scouts becoming less used.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 583	Posted - 2014.10.10 21:50:00 - [23313] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: What do you guys think about just nerfing the shotgun? I hate to do it, really, but it seems like the only commonality with regards to the balance problem we're discussing. Cloaks aren't the problem, scouts aren't the problem, tanked scouts aren't the problem, but the shotgun is the focal point of it all. Nerfing any of the others would have too much of a ripple effect on other roles. I don't think the shotgun is the problem itself, but nerfing it seems like the fastest and least intrusive way of eliminating the problem. All this ends justify means stuff makes me feel icky though :( Balancing Dust is hard It's a hard problem to fix. nerfing the shotgun because of cloak+shotgun still has ripple effect for those not using cloak with shotgun. The reason so many games lock class with weapons and equipment is because it is so hard to balance everything with everything. I fear Bolt Pistols more now then shotgun scouts because they can OHK me from 60m away.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5680	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:03:00 - [23314] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: What do you guys think about just nerfing the shotgun? I hate to nerf a bad weapon, which is what the shotgun is when you take away cloak. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3213	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:12:00 - [23315] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: What do you guys think about just nerfing the shotgun? I hate to do it, really, but it seems like the only commonality with regards to the balance problem we're discussing. Cloaks aren't the problem, scouts aren't the problem, tanked scouts aren't the problem, but the shotgun is the focal point of it all. Nerfing any of the others would have too much of a ripple effect on other roles. I don't think the shotgun is the problem itself, but nerfing it seems like the fastest and least intrusive way of eliminating the problem. All this ends justify means stuff makes me feel icky though :( Balancing Dust is hard From what you guys are hearing how would a further decloak delay on fire effect things? I know there are currently tech issues barring this but I think they might be being looked into further and if that would solve the problem I'd hate to see something else nerffed if it weren't needed. Thoughts? See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
voidfaction Nos Nothi 585	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:15:00 - [23316] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: What do you guys think about just nerfing the shotgun? I hate to nerf a bad weapon, which is exactly what the shotgun is was before we had cloak. If all shotgun scouts are overperforming ... why not increase its raise time on weapon swap (so it has to be pulled out in advance) and increase the sound of decloak (so scouts would be inclined to decloak from distance)? If high-hp scouts are overperforming, especially when they have shotguns ... why not implement well-measured plate/shield penalties to push those mercs away from HP or toward Assault frames? What if it had a charge mechanic like the Ion Pistol or Bolt Pistol? That would prevent it from being fired directly from cloak. Not a great idea but its something to consider vs nerfing dmg
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5682	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:17:00 - [23317] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: What do you guys think about just nerfing the shotgun? I hate to do it, really, but it seems like the only commonality with regards to the balance problem we're discussing. Cloaks aren't the problem, scouts aren't the problem, tanked scouts aren't the problem, but the shotgun is the focal point of it all. Nerfing any of the others would have too much of a ripple effect on other roles. I don't think the shotgun is the problem itself, but nerfing it seems like the fastest and least intrusive way of eliminating the problem. All this ends justify means stuff makes me feel icky though :( Balancing Dust is hard From what you guys are hearing how would a further decloak delay on fire effect things? I know there are currently tech issues barring this but I think they might be being looked into further and if that would solve the problem I'd hate to see something else nerffed if it weren't needed. Thoughts? We're on the same page ... that's why I had asked about the possibility of extending SG raise time. Presently, draw shotgun / decloak / fire all happen close to simultaneously. If raise time (or whatever its called) on the Shotgun were longer, draw weapon would immediately deactivate cloak, but there'd be a brief delay prior to fire. Add more noise to decloak, and you'll find far fewer scouts rushing like Rambo decloaking right next to people. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Llast 326 An Arkhos 4777	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:18:00 - [23318] - Quote Okay Can I get a clarification here? Cloak and shotgun are viewed as a problem Is this across the board on all scout suits? Cloak and other weapons are not as hated either Cloak NK, BP, PLC, ScR- not as hated because charge/spool? Cloak ScP, IoP, Rifles, MD - not generally OHK? Cloak FL - becauseGÇª now that Ghost is gone it's just me who does that Cloak SR - No HipfireGÇª. OMG this gives me an idea KRRROOOOOOM
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3218	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:21:00 - [23319] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: What do you guys think about just nerfing the shotgun? I hate to do it, really, but it seems like the only commonality with regards to the balance problem we're discussing. Cloaks aren't the problem, scouts aren't the problem, tanked scouts aren't the problem, but the shotgun is the focal point of it all. Nerfing any of the others would have too much of a ripple effect on other roles. I don't think the shotgun is the problem itself, but nerfing it seems like the fastest and least intrusive way of eliminating the problem. All this ends justify means stuff makes me feel icky though :( Balancing Dust is hard From what you guys are hearing how would a further decloak delay on fire effect things? I know there are currently tech issues barring this but I think they might be being looked into further and if that would solve the problem I'd hate to see something else nerffed if it weren't needed. Thoughts? We're on the same page ... that's why I had asked about the possibility of extending SG raise time. Presently, draw shotgun / decloak / fire all happen close to simultaneously. If raise time (or whatever its called) on the Shotgun were longer, draw weapon would immediately deactivate cloak, but there'd be a brief delay prior to fire. Add more noise to decloak, and you'll find far fewer scouts rushing like Rambo. I think it'd solve cloak+shotgun, without detracting from either element. Thank you for the confirmation. I will continue to watch the conversation here (of course) but mean time I'm crossing my fingers for our Dust Devs to render the whole point moot by addressing the fire delay snag. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18073	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:22:00 - [23320] - Quote I'm still seeing large numbers of HP tanking scouts with rifles. Indeed, I recently encountered a full squad of Calscouts with combat rifles and a Galscout with some obscene armour total. Thoughts? The forums have ruined me.

Haerr Clone Manque 1616	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:23:00 - [23321] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I'm still seeing large numbers of HP tanking scouts with rifles. Indeed, I recently encountered a full squad of Calscouts with combat rifles and a Galscout with some obscene armour total. Thoughts? Fitting their suits the right way.
Pseudogenesis Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 776	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:33:00 - [23322] - Quote Lengthening the pull-out animation of the shotgun seems like the best solution thus far. I'm not in favor of a decloaking fire delay because it would make the equipment clunky and would end up being a significant nerf to nova knives and other weapons. I'm also not fan of increasing the decloak sound because it's a stealth weapon, why should it be so loud opon decloak? It would really limit the equipment to mainly being used for the purposes of non-combat movement. The animation change, if it's possible, would be a very precise nerf that doesn't diminish the shotgun's strength too much and still leaves cloaky scout shotgunning as a viable playstyle. Think it's possible, Cross? Stabby-stabber extraordinaire I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 270	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:37:00 - [23323] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I'm still seeing large numbers of HP tanking scouts with rifles. Indeed, I recently encountered a full squad of Calscouts with combat rifles and a Galscout with some obscene armour total. Thoughts? Is this actually a problem? It's an alternative fit, not superior to speed or EWAR fitted scouts. Do these fits render assault suits invalid? I'm not sure they do. If they are better than assaults this would be a reason for increasing scout armour stacking penalties and shield regen, but only if tanked scouts are actually better than assault suits, not just an alternative. If you mean this shows that shotguns aren't the problem on scouts we would still need to determine if there is a problem. If there is, and it's not shotguns, going after the tank would be what I suggest.
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4040	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:39:00 - [23324] - Quote To be honest, I'd be happy lengthening the switch of all weapons. Insta-switch? Really? C'mon. Shorter than a reload sure, but not instant. That's just a pile of Class A Narcotic Bullshit. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
voidfaction Nos Nothi 590	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:45:00 - [23325] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I'm still seeing large numbers of HP tanking scouts with rifles. Indeed, I recently encountered a full squad of Calscouts with combat rifles and a Galscout with some obscene armour total. Thoughts? What is acceptable HP numbers for a scout? 17db without cloak takes 2 low slots away from my gal scout and personally I will not run without 17db or lower profile. My full tank proto fit is 527 HP and only my sniper fits use 2nd equipment so not like i'm taking the role of a Logi or Assault.
Appia Nappia 1295	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:52:00 - [23326] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I'm still seeing large numbers of HP tanking scouts with rifles. Indeed, I recently encountered a full squad of Calscouts with combat rifles and a Galscout with some obscene armour total. Thoughts? strongest innate armor repair and highest shield recharge value. Why wouldn't you tank the hell out of those? Also Cal-Scouts should be more inclined to use rifles as a shield favored suit they are more aptly suited for long range engagements. And CR is still OP and has the lowest fitting requirements so no reason to use a different weapon. So very tired
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4042	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:57:00 - [23327] - Quote Oh by the way, it looks like Haerr has taken the place of Monk when it comes to likes. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Appia Nappia 1295	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:59:00 - [23328] - Quote Complex Ferroscale has 0 movement penalty and 9.9 more HP than a complex shield extender for less fitting cost. But the shotgun is still crap. My ADV and PRO Assualt is, has, and will win every engagement against a shotgun, cloaked scout or not, because of how much HP is has, the DPS of a Combat Rifle (as Gallente Assault bonus is redundant when the weapons already have Sharpshooter there's no reason to use an AR when it's outperformed by a CR in a heavily armored meta) burns through the tankiest of plated scouts. The only thing the shotgun is really good at is pubstomping So very tired
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4042	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:11:00 - [23329] - Quote Appia Nappia wrote: Complex Ferroscale has 0 movement penalty and 9.9 more HP than a complex shield extender for less fitting cost. Get rid of shield extender penalties. Introduce new heavy shield extenders with penalties. Make all penalties for everything the same across all tiers. Problem=solved. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Appia Nappia 1298	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:22:00 - [23330] - Quote Also, I just want to say: I am wearing the most comfortable pair of shorts ever. They're guy's athletic shorts that are really baggy and go all the way down to my knees. They are sooooo soft. Did I mention they were baggy? Lol, I can fit both of my legs through 1 hole and it's still loose, and I have giant soccer thighs. These are the best things ever So very tired

Haerr Clone Manque 1618	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:22:00 - [23331] - Quote Spademan wrote: Oh by the way, it looks like Haerr has taken the place of Monk when it comes to likes. Hey it was always me and Monk, I am just more or less absent or active on the forums depending on how close I am to deadlines and assignments and weather and stuff. Lately though I have spent a lot of time on Dust :-) Btw since the CPM has taken an interest in the mouse support of Dust I have been a lot more interested than before. (Based on this alone I predict that next they'll do full racial parity (vehicles) and player market, I am sure )
Haerr Clone Manque 1618	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:23:00 - [23332] - Quote I do remember Shotty also having an itchy trigger finger when it comes to that button and this thread... [:D] DPLAK btw
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4046	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:26:00 - [23333] - Quote Appia Nappia wrote: Also, I just want to say: I am wearing the most comfortable pair of shorts ever. They're guy's athletic shorts that are really baggy and go all the way down to my knees. They are sooooo soft. Did I mention they were baggy? Lol, I can fit both of my legs through 1 hole and it's still loose, and I have giant soccer thighs. These are the best things ever Those kind of shorts+not wearing underwear=the most comfortable experience ever. Note: Not safe in public. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Haerr Clone Manque 1618	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:27:00 - [23334] - Quote Oh and about the cloak thing; that was a random thought that popped into my mind just when Shotty asked. It would be possible to increase the Scan Precision instead, above heavies but bellow links. If links had a profile of 99999 or something like that it wouldn't matter if the cloak did: Cloak Active = Scan Precision * 999% You would still be able to pickup links while cloaked.
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4054	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:49:00 - [23335] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: ? HPLAK ? I didn't notice this earlier. I'm impressed, one of only two people to get so high. The other one being me. They grow up so fast... I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5694	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:50:00 - [23336] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I'm still seeing large numbers of HP tanking scouts with rifles. Indeed, I recently encountered a full squad of Calscouts with combat rifles and a Galscout with some obscene armour total. Thoughts? If they are better than assaults this would be a reason for increasing scout armour stacking penalties and shield regen, but only if tanked scouts are actually better than assault suits, not just an alternative. Exactly this. We pull the trigger if Rattati says "tanky Scouts are OP". Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4054	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:58:00 - [23337] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I'm still seeing large numbers of HP tanking scouts with rifles. Indeed, I recently encountered a full squad of Calscouts with combat rifles and a Galscout with some obscene armour total. Thoughts? If they are better than assaults this would be a reason for increasing scout armour stacking penalties and shield regen, but only if tanked scouts are actually better than assault suits, not just an alternative. Exactly this. We pull the trigger if Rattati says "tanky Scouts are OP". Even then I'm not sure that's justification to have extra penalties on scouts just because scouts. If you want to keep consistency you'd then have to give Ewar mods penalties when fitted on heavy suits. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5695	Posted - 2014.10.11 00:12:00 - [23338] - Quote Spademan wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I'm still seeing large numbers of HP tanking scouts with rifles. Indeed, I recently encountered a full squad of Calscouts with combat rifles and a Galscout with some obscene armour total. Thoughts? If they are better than assaults this would be a reason for increasing scout armour stacking penalties and shield regen, but only if tanked scouts are actually better than assault suits, not just an alternative. Exactly this. We pull the trigger if Rattati says "tanky Scouts are OP". Even then I'm not sure that's justification to have extra penalties on scouts just because scouts. If you want to keep consistency you'd then have to give Ewar mods penalties when fitted on heavy suits. Arguments could be made that the value of a plate on a Scout far outweighs the value of a Dampener or Precision Enhancer on a Heavy. While a Scout is readily able to double his HP, is a Heavy ever able to half his Scan Profile? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3229	Posted - 2014.10.11 00:12:00 - [23339] - Quote Haerr wrote: Spademan wrote: Oh by the way, it looks like Haerr has taken the place of Monk when it comes to likes. Hey it was always me and Monk, I am just more or less absent or active on the forums depending on how close I am to deadlines and assignments and weather and stuff. Lately though I have spent a lot of time on Dust :-) Btw since the CPM has taken an interest in the mouse support of Dust I have been a lot more interested than before. (Based on this alone I predict that next they'll do full racial parity (vehicles) and player market, I am sure ) /sizes up that mountain, pushes to see if it will move See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Appia Nappia 1301	Posted - 2014.10.11 00:26:00 - [23340] - Quote Spademan wrote: Appia Nappia wrote: Also, I just want to say: I am wearing the most comfortable pair of shorts ever. They're guy's athletic shorts that are really baggy and go all the way down to my knees. They are sooooo soft. Did I mention they were baggy? Lol, I can fit both of my legs through 1 hole and it's still loose, and I have giant soccer thighs. These are the best things ever Those kind of shorts+not wearing underwear=the most comfortable experience ever. Note: Not safe in public. why is that not safe in public? So very tired



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