Looks like I missed the bar fight.
@Shotty: Looking through the proposal.
I see Appia's point (Scary, I've agreed twice) when she says you're trying to make each scout a different role. When you look at Commando's, Sentinels, Assaults and Logi's, they all follow a clear theme. Scouts currently don't, don't in your proposal, and I don't believe they ever have. Bar maybe pre 1.8 when Gallente and Minmatar Scouts both had the dampening bonus.
I think maybe that's the issue, what's our over arching theme? What do we all have in common that we can do in different ways?

Assaults and Commandos have weaponry bonuses, that's their theme, Killers.
Logi's have equipment bonuses, they're Support.
Sentinels have resistance bonuses, they're Bullet Sponges.
What about us? Our bonuses are so radically different, and I don't think we can balance all scouts against each other and other suits when we don't follow a pattern.

We're the only suit that has so much differences in suit bonuses.
Could we all be ghosts?
Recon perhaps?
Sidearm assassins?

The current defining theme...cloaks. Love it or hate it, that's the common theme for scouts as it stands. Gimmicky invisibility.

My vote would go to dampening instead, but that's likely to further break EWAR and is only really useful between scouts

I am not sure I agree that the singular purpose of all scouts is to be unscannable. There is no need to keep arguing about that here.

*walks in quietly* um. I was insulting adipem in that post for the 1% per level.
I just think Gav has fanboi status when dealing with Minmatar Scouts
*receives $20 for drugs from a friend*

Spademan summarized what I was trying to say in a much more stable way.

1. Inate hack speed goes to 1.25, and the suit bonus is removed.
2. Replace with 5% biotic module efficiency per level

Nope knives are fine in PC Moody just has different roles and isn't able to run them regularly and I normally see ghost with a shotty. Ask appia knives are fine in PC she got me the other day when I was in my speedhack suit. Trust me knives work you just need a proper squad to distract while the minny flanks its in no way as easy as a shotgun scout but its very useful for taking heavies down while the main fireteam progresses forward. It comes down to the map as well some maps its just not smart to carry a knife but regardless I carry it anyways

I hate running shotty in PC.

I normally run ACR in PC, but OH brings tons of shotguns to the field normally, so when I'm in city, I bring one too. You only see me when I play OH, so that's why it seems that way.

My General fit is ACR and Knives

Knives ARE fine in PC, but I still think the changes are helpful.

Right now if you want to use Knives in PC (At least against tanked heavies), you pretty much have to use the Min Scout. Ishnoks would take 4-5 full charge shots to kill a Tanked heavy without it, so it's not worth it for most. They would just use a shotgun.

I also run my scout a lot differently than the others. I try to take the versatility of the Minmatar to heart.

I have my speed/regen suit
Stealth Suit
Shield and Ferro Suit
Hack Suit
Etc....

I really try to make use of the versatile slot layout. Problem is though, the scans.

I would really like to see passive scanning removed, but that won't happen. In it's place, I would like the ability to capitalize on my speed.

Increased walk and sprint? Hell yeah. I NEVER stop moving in PC, and this combined with the high innate stamina regen on the Min Scout would do worlds to our overall speed.

This is how I envision Shotty talking at Gav right now.

Skimming through the Gallente Feedback Thread and reading only Rattati's posts, I get the distinct impression that (1) Rattati intends for each Scout to bring something different to the table and (2) he doesn't think that all Scouts should share the common trait of being unscannable.

For other scouts: Im thinking that if the cal scout precision bonus is nerfed enough so that 2x damps and a proto cloak can dodge it, it will be balanced, as it allows all scouts the ability to compete in a competitive environment.

Or, alternatively, we could remove shared squad vision, which would solve the majority of balance issues that arise from a cal scout being able to scan everything. If the cal scout puts on 4 precisions and 2 ranges, it is undoubtedly and undisputedly an incredibly non-viable combat fit, but the ability to show everyone in their proto sentinel 1000 dps HMG heavy suits where every 300 hp dampened scout is is far from balanced. It would be balanced, however, if only the cal scout could see the suits that it is stacking 4 precisions to see, because by doing so, it takes away any combat viability that it would have. Just my thoughts.

Also, the gal scout damp bonus should be 3% per level so that with 2 damps, it doesn't need a complex cloak to remain under the radar, giving it a distinct advantage at dampening, without throwing off the balance with other scouts getting under scans

Again, just my thoughts, use them as you will

* Minmatar: innate bonus changed from hack speed to movement

Underlined: this has been my stance since they brought up nerfing scouts for Alpha

Italicized: this seems to be a client side change and would need to wait for all the new hotfix to come out and be done

Bold: There's a problem with utility on this one. The cloaking effect of the cloak is basically worthless. The way the invisibility works is too obvious when you're moving (as it's just I/O) the only time it works is when you're standing perfectly still. And if you aren't dampened enough you appear on tacnet and have that nice glowing chevron over your head. The duration and recharge on the cloak favors predator-style hunting. The duration and shield flare favor camping.
The only real thing it has going for it is the dampening effect. Without it, there's no point other than taking advantage of . . . terribad players, as FYI aim assist locks on and drags your reticle when a cloaked enemy walks past you

So basically it comes down to the majority opinion taht 1 dampener and a cloak give the gallente too much power because they can stack 3 plates and be invisible (I disagree from a PC perspective but it is just way to ******* awesome at pubstomping) If the Cloak provides no dampening advantage and is easy to see when moving then there is no point in running it.
This whole thing is why I was strongly arguing for no-one to get a bonus to dampening. 2 complex damps and proto cloak OR 3 complex damps is the only way for it to be balanced across Gal-Min-Amarr. but it also means a Cal-Scout can dampen underneath itself which we've got majority opinion on that that would be a bad thing

I use min scouts, though I don't do PC, so feel free to disregard my opinion.

How often do min scouts need more than 2 damps to avoid scans?

In my opinion hacking is meant to be what makes min scouts special. Trouble is, to speed hack I find I need 2 code breakers, but I also need 2 damps to avoid scans. This leads me to believe the hacking just isn't fast enough on a min scout.

Would a faster hack speed balance min scouts?

Do you need 3 damps in PC to avoid radar, rendering min scouts unable to full fill the role of a speed hacker?

Lol. Soooo many strikethroughs on the Min Scout page.

[All good changes. I was looking at things the wrong way; Musturd set me straight. If he hadn't you or Moody would've.]

I'm fine with the Min Scout changes. It seems like it appeals to all in a sense. High Base hack means you can still hack with the suit. Codebreakers are required for maximum benefit. Speed is okay IMO. I only really run one kincat. With the changes to modules coming up soon, I'd like to wait before going any further with Kincats. Optimization is something we have needed for a LONG time.

[You've got the idea. I don't want to pitch anything which might break things, so we're steering clear of strafe and sprint speeds. The bonus to walk speed should help with kniving. The bonus to jumps should help with sexy.]

Cal Scout:

Where is my scanning table..... Not too many changes. 2x Damp and a Proto Cloak gets you under 3x Cal Scout. I can live with that.

[That's the plan. Less range, more investment. Zero to 2 cPEs gets them less than before. 3 and 4 get them the same precision as before. We're not reworking EWAR tables with this pitch; but should we do so later, this pitch will make it easier]


Gal Scout:

Why do you have the Math for 3x and 4x Precision on here? I like these changes to scanning. They fall in line with that "Scanning" post I made earlier. Gal has more range and the capability to fit more range. However, scans are not strong, making them good at picking up Med Frames. Cal has less range and not enough low slots. However, it can make it's Precision insane, meaning it's best at picking up scouts. If it wants to buff range to turn super EWAR, it will be easily picked up and defenseless, meaning it HAS to have support.

[Good catch on my labels (fixed). The guys originally proposed low-precision recon as a good Amarr role. I liked the idea alot but I see the Amarr being used differently, so I thought it'd fit better as an "build option" for the ewar-centric Gallente.)

Amarr:

Light Assault. But hey, that what we want right? I expect the 2x Ferro, 1x Damp, 1x Repair to be popular. Avoiding other scouts or the cal isn't the issue, since you have enough tank to take on any Cal scout stupid enough to get to close. 1 Damp + Cloak is enough to dodge most scans from Meds.

[Exactly. We love it. They'll love it.]

SUMMARY

I like it.
Is it perfect? No.
Can it be changed? Yes.

For all of the people who look at this and say "Stop Buffing Scouts!"

Please note that there is 3 nerfs, 3 "No changes" and 4 Buffs. 3 out of the 4 buffs are headed to the Min and Amarr scouts, in order to make them more viable, and the nerfs are attempts to bring the other scouts into line.

This is GOOD.

Seriously, Adipem, how can I get it through your thick skull that seems to be thicker than Gav's that this is horrendously broken as ****.

Your understanding of the mechanics is seriously lacking.
Base ground speed is the X that all other movement values are derived from. You can't simply change just movement and not affect sprint, strafe, backwards movement, crouch speed, etc.

Your understanding of the mechanics is seriously lacking.
Base ground speed is the X that all other movement values are derived from. You can't simply change just movement and not affect sprint, strafe, backwards movement, crouch speed, etc.

I use min scouts, though I don't do PC, so feel free to disregard my opinion.

How often do min scouts need more than 2 damps to avoid scans?

In my opinion hacking is meant to be what makes min scouts special. Trouble is, to speed hack I find I need 2 code breakers, but I also need 2 damps to avoid scans. This leads me to believe the hacking just isn't fast enough on a min scout.

Would a faster hack speed balance min scouts?

Do you need 3 damps in PC to avoid radar, rendering min scouts unable to full fill the role of a speed hacker?

We do know this. We have the SDK. we can see the that those values are functions. Subsets of movements are all multiplied from base ground speed. 0.3 for crouch. there's a value for "free walk" that I haven't figured out what "free walk" is. Sprint is 1.4. Strafe is ground speed * 0.9

copy paste without regards to formatting.

mCharProp.movementCrouch.backwardSpeedScale1.0
mCharProp.movementCrouch.groundSpeedScale0.3
mCharProp.movementCrouch.jumpStaminaCost65.0
mCharProp.movementCrouch.strafeSpeedScale1.1
mCharProp.movementFreeWalk.backwardSpeedScale0.25
mCharProp.movementFreeWalk.groundSpeedScale0.35
mCharProp.movementFreeWalk.jumpStaminaCost65.0
mCharProp.movementFreeWalk.strafeSpeedScale0.7
mCharProp.movementRun.backwardSpeedScale1.0
mCharProp.movementRun.groundSpeedScale1.0
mCharProp.movementRun.jumpStaminaCost65.0
mCharProp.movementRun.strafeSpeedScale0.9
mCharProp.movementSprint.backwardSpeedScale1.0