I wouldn't suggest improving the cloak if CCP's data suggests cloaks are doing well. Or improving scouts if the data suggests they are doing well.

Not the same argument as your pistol.

We are talking tacnet vs visual/chevron.

If someone wants to be stealthy, they want to stay off tacnet first. Let me give you 2 situations:

1) You rely on cloak for stealth, but do not dampen enough. At this point, if you show up on someone's tacnet, you will have a chevron over your head. If you simply remove the chevron, you will still show up on tacnet... They will still know you are there, and their crosshairs will still turn red. All they will do is point close enough to where tacnet says you are, and look for a blurry spot until their crosshairs turn red. At most, you have made them work slightly harder to kill you, but you have not done a damn thing to increase your survivability, because you didn't dampen enough.

2) You were smart enough to dampen and not show on their tacnet. Removal of chevron while cloaked is a moot point.

So, in the end, removal of chevron while cloaked if you still have too much precision does little. They know you are there, even if their eyes have to work just a little harder. The problem with the cloak is not the chevron. The fits I use most are all fits that are below the scans of the vast majority of suit's middle and outer ring scans. I still die frequently while cloaked, not because I have a chevron over my head, but because the cloak is still so visible. Often at distances far greater than even the best passive scans, by such suits as heavies or commandoes that don't even have the Precision to pick me up with any of their EWAR rings.

The chevron does very little, as it only shows up when someone already knows you are in the area because you are already on their tacnet. What point is saying this will make someone more stealthy if you are still on tacnet? Especially considering the nature of tacnet, and not even having to have LoS on someone for them to show up.

If CCPreally wants to make the cloak a viable stealth tool, they are going to have to do something much more drastic visually than simply removing the chevron.

Not necessarily. The inevitable problem that has always plagued EWAR is that it's binary. You're either scanned or you're not and there is no way to impact that once you're on the field - you have to change suits. Dynamic Profile is a way to increase opportunities for Player Shaping and add uncertainty factors into the EWAR system so that neither side is 100% guaranteed anything. If you get scanned, try crouching - it might help, it might not. That sort of uncertainty is necessary for the system to have some measure of balance without players feeling punished for not running the perfect fit at the perfect time.

So, in saying that Scouts shouldn't be scanned... Probably not, but they shouldn't be immune to scans either. Needs to be more gray area.

Actually my desire for the cloak is to make it less clunky and frustrating, like providing visual cues which let you know when you can fire (after you've become visible).

For scouts I actually am thinking of little quality of life fixes that don't necessarily make them more powerful, but make certain processes less asinine to deal with.

1) Don't you always have red crosshairs when you target them? I don't think that's relevant. You're assuming that a) people will actually even notice you on the minimap and b) that you're not moving when they try and find you, both of which are less likely than you're making them out to be. When you cloak up and move around, you're hoping that people don't see you. Chevrons make it REALLY easy for people to see you. Ergo, removing chevrons would make you harder to detect, thus increasing your survivability. I don't really see the issue here.

2) Yes, clearly being fully damped should and does make you stealthier than not being fully damped. I never claimed that shouldn't be the case. I said that not being fully damped shouldn't render the cloak completely useless. To use the cloak properly right now entails disallowing the use of your primary weapon, undergoing a long swap time should you choose to swap back, giving up an equipment slot, giving up 2-3 low slots, giving up your passive scans, and becoming a shimmering purple beacon for all the world to see. That just isn't okay. Something's got to give.

Am I missing something? Does everyone just glue their eyes to their minimaps instead of actually looking at the screen? Because in all my time playing Dust I can never remember using the minimap to locate people when I could just look for a chevron. The minimap seems like the strictly worse option.

I would keep the recital going red.
I can see my poor butt being blapped in fw and pc by friendlies to become more often than it is already X(

But less clunk when not deactivating the cloak would be the sweetness

[snip]

Fair points, but the reason you see so few cloaked scouts with chevrons is they can't run cloak without being fully damped, and that's my point. Doing this would give scouts another option for a stealthy playstyle and make ewar a little less all-or-nothing. I personally would love a halfway stealthy build, because I think stacking damps is incredibly boring (and the result of bad design)

@ Quality of Life Improvements

Thanks Breakin and Aeon for taking the time to talk this over with us. 100% in agreement with what you guys are saying and 100% in agreement that while a little polish would be great for scout play, performance improvements (i.e. buffs) shouldn't be introduced unless the need to do so is clearly supported by data.

If you guys asked me to put together a conservative "wish list", it'd include much of what's being discussed here and would very likely look something like this: Google Doc

First and foremost, I'd love to see a more fun and better balanced AM Scout. Biotic Efficacy has been tossed around since Rattati's arrival. That'd potentially be tough to wire, and like Aeon said, may not be "Amarr" enough. As an alternative, a "quickdraw" styled ScP bonus would be equally appealing.

As described, the "interclass parity" section should be ignored if performance data does not support the need for improvements. If performance data were to show that the class is falling behind, I'd suggest that gentle, conservative iteration erring on the side of not enough. The very last thing I want to see is an overpowered Scout. That'd make us all look bad (us more so than you).

Fair points, but the reason you see so few cloaked scouts with chevrons is they can't run cloak without being fully damped, and that's my point. Doing this would give scouts another option for a stealthy playstyle and make ewar a little less all-or-nothing. I personally would love a halfway stealthy build, because I think stacking damps is incredibly boring (and the result of bad design)

The Chevrons aren't necessary.

Honestly I wish scanning ranges corresponded with primary weapon (for the race) optimal range.

So gallente would have 40 base (AR) and Cal would be what, 75? (RR) with caldari having the weakest precision and the gallente having the strongest.

That way Gallente would have a bloody reason to use range mods (sacrifice that tank, you mob child) and Caldari would use precision mods (Lowest bidder indeed. How's corp life NOW???) with the amarr and Minmatar filling the gaps between.

Now scale according to role.

Just random thoughts from a numbers nerd. I just think that if you can't detect at least at optimal, there's not a lot of point to the scanners to begin with.

For several reasons, terrible the cloak is. List them for focus, I will.

1) Cloak Delay
2) E-war nerf while cloaked
3) still very visible when cloaked

Back-end engineer, I am not. E-war mechanic change, I would if a back-end engineer, I was.

agree, you must for scouts, the sake of.

half an isk this is vahzz.

Uh...
Can anyone guess why these posts got removed?

http://dustsearch.com/thread/217910/page/4#112
http://dustsearch.com/thread/217910/page/4#117

Who did I even offend this time? ;_;

Begin your Tinfoiling nowGǪ

Begin?
Begin?

Mine began long ago.

Because we know how much some of you like Data

Graphs!

According to recently released data from Rattati, Assault Ck.0s with ARRs were the most popular PC combo before the recent buffs.


EDIT: Fun facts...

ARR is the most used PC weapon.


By a massive margin, Minassaults and Amarr sentinels are the most popular PC suits - they're literally 2x ahead of the next most popular suits (Galscout, Calassault).

4.5k Scotsman scouts died in PC in the last 3 months.

11.5k Bons shotguns were used.