Would need to be rebalanced concidering all other weapon got changed. Wouldn't bet as balanced as it was if exactly as before.

But, yes Let focus on HMG.

Maybe we should pull some numbers to help the devs. I will look at some stuff tonight and see if I can post something. Testing with blue mate let say for distances.

I thought the chromosone stats were fine. Non hmg users just didn't realize the range was "ridiculous" because all heavies worth their salt HAD to get sharpshooter to at least level 8 to be worth anything because that's what all the light weapon users did. It was an arms race that was fair (except lasers, sorry), but we got thw shortest end of the stick when everything got rebalanced.

I thought the chromosone stats were fine. Non hmg users just didn't realize the range was "ridiculous" because all heavies worth their salt HAD to get sharpshooter to at least level 8 to be worth anything because that's what all the light weapon users did. It was an arms race that was fair (except lasers, sorry), but we got thw shortest end of the stick when everything got rebalanced.

Yeah, we had to skill into SS otherwise we werent be able to shoot anyone with the insane range of AR and laser rifle, i think the range withour SS was ok for the HMG in Chromosome and the damage was more than good, in fact no one complain about the damage of the HMG in the forums back in chromosome

no even then it wasnt fair.. .heavy was 3x/6x vs light weapons at 2x/5x

so not only did we get sh@t on by the constant QQ of our range, but no one aside from us ever acknowledged that it cost us a fair amount more to have those similar ranges.

one of the biggest things from before. now the SP cost seems balanced at least, now to balance the in game result

We are forgetting the most important part here, is that the HMG is not fixed, we need the HMG to be able to perform our job, be it as a defender or as an attacker.

We need the HMG restored to Chromosome stats, that was really balanced

Yeah... right now only the Amarr heavy frame model is complete. In Uprising we've started pushing all the suits more into specific race profiles, but of course when you're missing 75% of the other frame options you're bound to have some balance holes. The Caldari, Minmatar and Gallente heavy frames are coming, but not as soon as we'd all like.

To that point though, how would you guys like us to approach that? Would you want Type-IIs and more sidegrade variants to tide you over until the other suits come online? (Even knowing that we'll probably retire them once the others arrive?)

I would like to know are us heavies that are have our skill points into amarr heavy stuck with amarr or when the suit come out in the future will we get another skill point re-spec. main reason I would like to know this is because if the heavies are not fixed by then and we do get a re-spec I will not spec into heavy with over 11 mill in skill points that more than enough to be a beast AR
If none of the above happens I would sadly quit the game.

Exactly what I was saying on page 23 of this thread.

We need to focus on what needs to be done to the HMG to make it viable.

I suggest building off of other peoples' ideas. Take a look at my post and others' post containing potential fixes; if you like it give it a thumbs up! Better yet expand upon it. If you disagree with any of it offer alternatives.

Simply saying "the HMG needs fixed" does nothing. The DEVs already know this: if they didn't they would not be actively engaging us to find a solution.

if they want us to be a CQC defender they need to give us tools to perform that job, these tools are more damage, more turning speed but less range and less walking and sprint speed.
If they want us to be a suppression class, they need to give us more range and more walking and sprint speed but less damage and turning speed, so we can suppress at long range.

Dont worry jiraiya, i keep liking all the possible solution that could help the HMG restore its glory, i also put an idea myself which i quote below.

You can't defend without range. Anyone with more range (everyone else in the game) will simply stand outside your ability to shoot them and kill you.

In NO other game is range as fubarred as it is in DUST. It defies logic. Rework it completely.

They tried a novel way to differentiate classes (hard range), and it simply doesn't work. It is the core of most balance issues in this game.

Well according to CCP's logic, our role is defender. How to defend an objective you ask? Well considering most maps don't have enough cover to consider them "CQC" and we're using, funny enough, a CQC weapon, the simple answer is to camp.

That's right. A heavy's role right now is the camp corners. Find a room, find a corner, and wait. Someone might walk by. This gameplay sounds intense!

Just played a game where there was Radar from PFBHz and he killed my 1300hp heavy in 2 hitts, with nova knifes... not like i didn't see him coming.

Not sure I can do close to that with my HMG lol

I don't hate the Heavies. Or the HMG.

Well, actually, I hate everyone on the planet equally so technically I guess that means I hate no-one (we're all snowflakes!)

Good to see some intelligent debate and solid points in this thread, so thanks for that! Just wanted to jump in an explain the thinking behind some of the recent changes.

- The SS skill had to go. It should never have been there in the first place as it pushed all weapons well beyond their intended ranges and with more racial variants coming into the game (rail rifle, combat rifle etc.) it was more important than ever to have cleaner range profiles for all weaponry.
- The Sentinel was designed primarily as a point defense role. His speed and slow turn rate make him unsuitable for frontline combat. His presence should make anyone think twice before approaching a position. I'm not sure but it seems to me that a lot of the complaints about the ineffectiveness of the HMG stem from the fact that people want to use it to lead the charge into enemy territory. The HMG is not well suited for use in open areas but it comes into its own when used in outposts where targets are confined to narrow spaces. And at close range, the HMG is still very effective, I believe.

The HMG's optimal range is up to 30m and max. effective range caps out at 50m. (This is currently a hard cap - all weapons stop doing any damage beyond their max range - but we're going to be fixing this soon. Like soon soon, not SOON(tm).) What it needs is not a damage buff (it kills just fine) but a gentler damage falloff curve so that it can be used as an effective suppression weapon in the 50-70m range. As an attacker, right now it's too easy to shrug off the hits and close the gap between yourself and the person wielding the HMG so that's something I'd like to address as soon as possible.

Other smaller tweaks like lessening kick (which gets pretty excessive as the weapon nears its heat threshold) and a modest improvement in how quickly the weapon reaches optimal dispersion should make it feel much better.

Anyway, thanks for the ten-page thread, guys. I look forward to the next ten pages!

just to keep it bumped

its disappointing to think that we've been suckered into this situation, to do a job we cant do anymore

camp corners? never.
i like the heavy class too much to give up on it, but man.......

as the last heavy in my corp, i can honestly say that depression has set in (as far as gaming goes, lulz)

well that's what Assault players cried for. "HEAVIES ARE A SUPPORT CLASS, AND TO DEFEND OBJECTIVES!!! QQ... THEY HAVE TOO MUCH RANGE...QQ"

So here we are today camping corners

Thankfully I had some SP left to get an assault suit going otherwise I won't be playing DUST at all.

yessir. but in chromosome even I noticed that the HMG has a hard time killing targets at more than 20 meters because even constricted targets that far out fill a lot less of the cone of fire than they do at 10 meters, so you lose a lot of the rounds to empty space. 20-30 was the sweet spot that killed most heavies in duels with assault rifles. Giant head hitbox. gotta love it.

This ^

They QQ so much about heavies beign a defender or a support class, when the only way we have to get WP is to kil that means by no choice we are killers

"CQC" is a funny thing...

The only CQC i've seen thus far typically goes as follows:

-Close distance
-Bunny hop circles around heavy
-Win, Next

This ^

They QQ so much about heavies beign a defender or a support class, when the only way we have to get WP is to kil that means by no choice we are killers

lance - i have 1.3 mil SP left......and im waiting. for what, i dont know. maybe ccp to fix the problem they created?

beoulve - exactly. everyone QQ about everything EXCEPT the damage b4........funny.....

this was mentioned earlier in this thread

Excellent point. I'd forgotten that they were being buffed by the blanket bonus to all weapon damage given by the weaponry skill.

Let's look at what the Dev said:



It sounds like he was looking at the Damage value on HMG's based on Chromosome's Weaponry lvl 5, which was needed to get HMG's.

So that right there added 10% dmg to the base dmg of HMG's. So instead of taking away 10% (weaponry 5) it looks like he took away 10% from the base value (without weaponry 5)

So in total it was a 20% dmg nerf.

It sounds like he was looking at the Damage value on HMG's based on Chromosome's Weaponry lvl 5, which was needed to get HMG's.

So that right there added 10% dmg to the base dmg of HMG's. So instead of taking away 10% (weaponry 5) it looks like he took away 10% from the base value (without weaponry 5)

So in total it was a 20% dmg nerf. .

Let's look at what the Dev said:



It sounds like he was looking at the Damage value on HMG's based on Chromosome's Weaponry lvl 5, which was needed to get HMG's.

So that right there added 10% dmg to the base dmg of HMG's. So instead of taking away 10% (weaponry 5) it looks like he took away 10% from the base value (without weaponry 5)

So in total it was a 20% dmg nerf.