DUST Search - HMG Review (as unbiased as possible...I promise :D )

CCP Remnant wrote:

I don't hate the Heavies. Or the HMG.

Well, actually, I hate everyone on the planet equally so technically I guess that means I hate no-one (we're all snowflakes!) Big smile

Good to see some intelligent debate and solid points in this thread, so thanks for that! Just wanted to jump in an explain the thinking behind some of the recent changes.

- The SS skill had to go. It should never have been there in the first place as it pushed all weapons well beyond their intended ranges and with more racial variants coming into the game (rail rifle, combat rifle etc.) it was more important than ever to have cleaner range profiles for all weaponry.
- The Sentinel was designed primarily as a point defense role. His speed and slow turn rate make him unsuitable for frontline combat. His presence should make anyone think twice before approaching a position. I'm not sure but it seems to me that a lot of the complaints about the ineffectiveness of the HMG stem from the fact that people want to use it to lead the charge into enemy territory. The HMG is not well suited for use in open areas but it comes into its own when used in outposts where targets are confined to narrow spaces. And at close range, the HMG is still very effective, I believe.

The HMG's optimal range is up to 30m and max. effective range caps out at 50m. (This is currently a hard cap - all weapons stop doing any damage beyond their max range - but we're going to be fixing this soon. Like soon soon, not SOON(tm).) What it needs is not a damage buff (it kills just fine) but a gentler damage falloff curve so that it can be used as an effective suppression weapon in the 50-70m range. As an attacker, right now it's too easy to shrug off the hits and close the gap between yourself and the person wielding the HMG so that's something I'd like to address as soon as possible.

Other smaller tweaks like lessening kick (which gets pretty excessive as the weapon nears its heat threshold) and a modest improvement in how quickly the weapon reaches optimal dispersion should make it feel much better.

Anyway, thanks for the ten-page thread, guys. I look forward to the next ten pages! Blink


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 80	Posted - 2013.05.09 00:13:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Remnant wrote: I don't hate the Heavies. Or the HMG. Well, actually, I hate everyone on the planet equally so technically I guess that means I hate no-one (we're all snowflakes!) Good to see some intelligent debate and solid points in this thread, so thanks for that! Just wanted to jump in an explain the thinking behind some of the recent changes. - The SS skill had to go. It should never have been there in the first place as it pushed all weapons well beyond their intended ranges and with more racial variants coming into the game (rail rifle, combat rifle etc.) it was more important than ever to have cleaner range profiles for all weaponry. - The Sentinel was designed primarily as a point defense role. His speed and slow turn rate make him unsuitable for frontline combat. His presence should make anyone think twice before approaching a position. I'm not sure but it seems to me that a lot of the complaints about the ineffectiveness of the HMG stem from the fact that people want to use it to lead the charge into enemy territory. The HMG is not well suited for use in open areas but it comes into its own when used in outposts where targets are confined to narrow spaces. And at close range, the HMG is still very effective, I believe. The HMG's optimal range is up to 30m and max. effective range caps out at 50m. (This is currently a hard cap - all weapons stop doing any damage beyond their max range - but we're going to be fixing this soon. Like soon soon, not SOON(tm).) What it needs is not a damage buff (it kills just fine) but a gentler damage falloff curve so that it can be used as an effective suppression weapon in the 50-70m range. As an attacker, right now it's too easy to shrug off the hits and close the gap between yourself and the person wielding the HMG so that's something I'd like to address as soon as possible. Other smaller tweaks like lessening kick (which gets pretty excessive as the weapon nears its heat threshold) and a modest improvement in how quickly the weapon reaches optimal dispersion should make it feel much better. Anyway, thanks for the ten-page thread, guys. I look forward to the next ten pages! I like this. What I feel should happen is when you are ADS on the HMG it should spin-up. This would help place more accurate shots when you do pull the trigger, and honesty this is the first game with a mini-gun that doesn't have this option I have played. Another thought is the HMG bounces around way too much, I see that you want to tweak it so it has lesser kick. I would say that if a heavy is squatting there should be no kick at all. We would be beat by a sloth in a race when we crouch, snipers have no sway when they crouch. So why not make it dead nuts when we as heavies crouch. Also, I don't feel this is a HMG issue but the heavy class in general just dies way too fast for how slow it is. TACs and lasers still destroy a heavy no matter how many HP you have. Specially when they are shooting you from outside of your range. If your goal was to get all heavies to hug corners then you succeeded. Because even 2 seconds out of cover with a proficient laser or TAC user and you are dead. Never mind the weird corner hangs where your fat suit gets stuck on a curb or a banister. Or the most prominent, the slight slope with a pebble on it where you do the running man as a sniper tears into your head. Just my thoughts on it for now.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 89	Posted - 2013.05.09 01:36:00 - [2] - Quote Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: General Tiberius1 wrote: that's it, i give up, everyone's attention span must have been reached Thanks for your efforts man. I think we might have done enough. We'll have to wait and see how it's re-balanced. Hopefully it is a good rebalanced attempt, as of now HMG just gets stomped. I have 2 heavy fits. If I see an opportunity to go CQB in the initial drop I will go HMG. If not I just go FG and find a place to snipe from. As a person with 5 mil SP I am just barely able to fit a decent HMG fit. And that is with mostly tank. I tried a A/1 series suit with 2 complex damage mods and two enhanced plates, Armor at 5 shield at 4... with a 1000 HP I will maybe kill 1-2 assaulters before I am destroyed. With 2 Basic shield extenders and two enhanced armor mods I really don't fair any better. Sometimes worse. It's a toss as to how good the assaulters are. Example Core and his damned SG pisses me off though. Skinny little bastard just has the right amount of speed to avoid my HMG. And I can't hit him with my scrambler pistol. I doubt it will change too as complex plates will make me slower and better shields are really only maybe one more bullet from an AR.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 89	Posted - 2013.05.09 01:37:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Remnant wrote: Tiberion Deci wrote: CCP Remnant wrote: That's odd. Is that 20m as seen from the target intel info on-screen? I double-checked the curves like five minutes ago and they're definitely 30m for optimal range. I'll investigate further. I will be uploading my gameplay from the past couple days to youtube soon. Is there a way you guys at CCP could take a look at it? See if everything is working as intended? By all means. Please post the link and we'll check it out. Yes, I would like to see your channel as well.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 90	Posted - 2013.05.09 01:49:00 - [4] - Quote Grimmnyr Odynson wrote: Glorithiel Laenreth wrote: Just a little thing, in the real world, range of a HMG M2-HB Browing (cal 50) = 1200 meters. Range of a assault rifle = 300-400 meters. That's not true for assault rifles. Effective range for an M-16 A2 is 550 yards so approximately 503 meters. Farthest I ever had to put rounds on a target in boot camp was 500 yards (USMC) and that's on a target that is human sized. Max effective range against a vehicle is 800 yards or about 731 1/2 meters. Please. I have shot expert in every BRM I have ever taken and 500 yards for a human sized target with iron sights is next to impossible. Specially with a longstick. Now if you would of said M14 with optics then yes I could see it but the 5.56 round at 500 meters with iron sights? Even the USMC isn't that hardcore that they can improve your eyesight. Unless that is a full 6 ft. fat guy standing 500 meters away and your weapon is zeroed to 500 meters. I still don't see it. And is it really effective to shoot 800 yards at a vehicle with an M16 when you got Ma Deuce on the top of your truck?
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 90	Posted - 2013.05.09 01:55:00 - [5] - Quote CCP Remnant wrote: martinofski wrote: I think with the current maps design, we should have received another race for the heavy, a shield, fast version for "running" around and turning at reasonnable speeds so we can track the guy running and jumping in minmatar logi using their 4high,4low,4equip setup and duvolles. This patch was indead bad for the heavys since you either use what is available and run the sentinel that you don't want, or you do like me and don't upgrade the dropsuit and use the militia one to save your SP. Yeah... right now only the Amarr heavy frame model is complete. In Uprising we've started pushing all the suits more into specific race profiles, but of course when you're missing 75% of the other frame options you're bound to have some balance holes. The Caldari, Minmatar and Gallente heavy frames are coming, but not as soon as we'd all like. To that point though, how would you guys like us to approach that? Would you want Type-IIs and more sidegrade variants to tide you over until the other suits come online? (Even knowing that we'll probably retire them once the others arrive?) Yes. More shield tanked heavies please with maybe a 6 m/s sprint speed. Maybe also a slower rate of fire HMG that has more range that is single barrel with a belt feed. Faster heat buildup compared to the mini-gun but able to hit out to AR/TAR range effectively.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 90	Posted - 2013.05.09 02:08:00 - [6] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Schalac 17 wrote: Grimmnyr Odynson wrote: Glorithiel Laenreth wrote: Just a little thing, in the real world, range of a HMG M2-HB Browing (cal 50) = 1200 meters. Range of a assault rifle = 300-400 meters. That's not true for assault rifles. Effective range for an M-16 A2 is 550 yards so approximately 503 meters. Farthest I ever had to put rounds on a target in boot camp was 500 yards (USMC) and that's on a target that is human sized. Max effective range against a vehicle is 800 yards or about 731 1/2 meters. Even the USMC isn't that hardcore that they can improve your eyesight. Unless that is a full 6 ft. fat guy standing 500 meters away and your weapon is zeroed to 500 meters. I still don't see it. Point target training with an M-16 is 550 meters. 800 meters on things like hummvees and tightly grouped idiots. browning HMG: over a mile 2500 meters is the longest confirmed kill with a 'ma deuce. .30 cal machineguns are just shy of 2000 meters Assault rifles range between 400-600 ironsights depending on model. Don't post what you have no clue about. Especially not the marines if you have never been one. I am a soldier. 550 meters? The army zeros for 300 meters because realistically are you going to hit that 550 meter target on the run with your M4/16? No you aren't, that is why we have machine guns like the 240B and M2. Because unless you are a sniper at that range you just want to send as much lead as possible down range at them hoping something kills them. Assault rifles are most effective at 100-300 meters. That is where you can be scared shitless, look into your ACOG and still get an accurate shot or 30 off and take them bastards down. Everything else call in the AWT and take pictures of the pretty explosions.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 90	Posted - 2013.05.09 02:18:00 - [7] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Schalac 17 wrote: I am a soldier. 550 meters? the army and marine training is not the same. They use different standards and have different expectations. Marines have to do more with less because they use the gear they looted from the Army disposal piles. Actually, when I was in Afghanistan I was jealous of the gear the Marines had. They are the few the proud, so obviously is was more cost effective to equip them with the best **. Atleast that is how I took it after doing 72 hour missions with ** gear and having to fix everything in our platoon because I was one of the only people that actually cared about our mission readiness when our job was to run rabbit for local disease infested backstabbers that stole anything they could off of you and ROE said you couldn't shoot the third world degenerates.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 90	Posted - 2013.05.09 02:35:00 - [8] - Quote Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: Schalac 17 wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Schalac 17 wrote: I am a soldier. 550 meters? the army and marine training is not the same. They use different standards and have different expectations. Marines have to do more with less because they use the gear they looted from the Army disposal piles. Actually, when I was in Afghanistan I was jealous of the gear the Marines had. They are the few the proud, so obviously is was more cost effective to equip them with the best **. Atleast that is how I took it after doing 72 hour missions with ** gear and having to fix everything in our platoon because I was one of the only people that actually cared about our mission readiness when our job was to run rabbit for local disease infested backstabbers that stole anything they could off of you and ROE said you couldn't shoot the third world degenerates. guys....I appreciate your views on the HMG and the support given to the thread, but let's keep it on topic Well thank you. As a side note I think this song should play everytime you spawn as a heavy with a HMG in DUST http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qv5gY5iiCA. It gets me pumped up and it allows me to wait for that assault to come around the corner to start laying into him. It also increases my range to 100 meters as I blast down that CRU. What it doesn't do though is remove the movement penalties to armor mods, which I think would be a good buff to heavies as they are already insanely slow. Movement penalties in EVE to armor OK, in DUST I hate it. Or maybe a skill we can spec that would reduce the movement penalty. Just brainstorming.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 91	Posted - 2013.05.09 20:21:00 - [9] - Quote Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: Dis Cord wrote: You can't defend without range. Anyone with more range (everyone else in the game) will simply stand outside your ability to shoot them and kill you. In NO other game is range as fubarred as it is in DUST. It defies logic. Rework it completely. They tried a novel way to differentiate classes (hard range), and it simply doesn't work. It is the core of most balance issues in this game. Well according to CCP's logic, our role is defender. How to defend an objective you ask? Well considering most maps don't have enough cover to consider them "CQC" and we're using, funny enough, a CQC weapon, the simple answer is to camp. That's right. A heavy's role right now is the camp corners. Find a room, find a corner, and wait. Someone might walk by. This gameplay sounds intense! My MQ has all the perfect corners and my HMG can shoot from one side to the other. Best part, the enemy can't get away because the door doesn't open.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 92	Posted - 2013.05.09 21:32:00 - [10] - Quote General Tiberius1 wrote: SoTa of PoP wrote: Jesus - I walk away from this thread and come back and it's on page 26. And what's worse - so little mention of competitive level heavies. You vet heavies makin' me sad. Has CCP mentioned at all about the data they farmed from Corp Battles? I'd really like to know what the statistics for the Boundless KDR were. everyone is upset about the extra 10% damage nerf to the HMG.... and yeah, lose internet connection for 3 hours, and have to play catch up I'm not upset about the damage nerf to HMG, what gets me though is why they had to nerf the range even further after SS was taken away. That was uncalled for. Also the new glare effects on FG and HMG need to go.

Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 95	Posted - 2013.05.10 19:52:00 - [11] - Quote So the 1 level I put into AR is now wasted? I call for a SP refund NOAW.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 102	Posted - 2013.05.11 02:12:00 - [12] - Quote TARs have always beaten heavies. In the last build I had AR Pro trained and SS and my TAR always beat a heavy. TAR is the battle rifle of DUST. I am surprised that it took so long for everyone else to see this. Maybe it was because the GEK just destroyed everything. Oh, and the Viziam... What hurt HMG the most though wasn't the damage nerf. It was the range reduction. CCP placated the scrub heavies with 18 damage. Damage was never the problem. The reduced range on top of SS nerf is what killed the HMG. Take away my damage. Put me back to Uprising HMG damage, but give me back chromozone base HMG and assault HMG range. Then we will truly see AR users cry. Because there was not much difference between AR and HMG in chromozone. A few meters that our fatasses could cover easily to apply full damage. SS is what hurt us as percentiles grow greater the more they are applied. I find the damage buff to be a placebo. CCP leading us into a new role. Fuxx that shite. We as heavies are the catalyst of an offensive push, we are the ones people follow into enemy territory. For us to go 30+ pages and then accept this new role of defense after playing a pusher for so long is asinine. I'm against it. That is my battle cry. I'M AGAINST IT. I do not want to be cordoned off into a small section of the map because I am a heavy. I do not want to have to sit on an objective waiting for the enemy to assault it because of the suit I am wearing. I AM AGAINST IT! It is silly to even request that of me. I am a pusher. I move the front line. It's what I am made for. CCP be damned
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 103	Posted - 2013.05.11 04:01:00 - [13] - Quote And I apply logic to the situation and no bumps. I am guessing that most of the heavies in this thread were scrubs that got their jaws on the bone CCP just threw us and forgot all about this thread.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 103	Posted - 2013.05.11 04:07:00 - [14] - Quote Smooth Head wrote: You know a game is bad when the developer either hides or fudges the player numbers. So you think the recent addition of adding pod pilots to the log in screen of DUST is a coverup? Because I can tell you as soon as I saw 50000+ on DUST I logged into EVE and it was at 48000.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 103	Posted - 2013.05.11 04:13:00 - [15] - Quote XxWarlordxX97 wrote: Schalac 17 wrote: And I apply logic to the situation and no bumps. I am guessing that most of the heavies in this thread were scrubs that got their jaws on the bone CCP just threw us and forgot all about this thread. are you calling me a scrub? Depends, do you think that damage was the problem HMG had?
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 103	Posted - 2013.05.11 04:32:00 - [16] - Quote XxWarlordxX97 wrote: Schalac 17 wrote: XxWarlordxX97 wrote: Schalac 17 wrote: And I apply logic to the situation and no bumps. I am guessing that most of the heavies in this thread were scrubs that got their jaws on the bone CCP just threw us and forgot all about this thread. are you calling me a scrub? Depends, do you think that damage was the problem HMG had? I like this guy, he knows nothing about me Well then that is because you weren't a heavy, or if you were, you weren't worth learning your name.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 103	Posted - 2013.05.11 04:34:00 - [17] - Quote XxWarlordxX97 wrote: Schalac 17 wrote: XxWarlordxX97 wrote: Schalac 17 wrote: And I apply logic to the situation and no bumps. I am guessing that most of the heavies in this thread were scrubs that got their jaws on the bone CCP just threw us and forgot all about this thread. are you calling me a scrub? Depends, do you think that damage was the problem HMG had? Yes damage was a problem, 20 kill assets is bad This is a range problem not a damage problem.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 103	Posted - 2013.05.11 04:48:00 - [18] - Quote XxWarlordxX97 wrote: What is your KD scrub Oh, here we go. We got a live one here boss. "What is your KD scrub"... Well my KD is you are nothing and I have no idea who you are to even care about your opinion. Unless it coincides with mine and then we can be friends, until that time though you do not matter. Because what you obviously want is not what I want because you are stupid... D. U. M. B. stupid. So either jump onboard or I am going to run you over with facts and knowledge. Most people that get into this type of thing with me just stop posting, I suggest you do the same.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 103	Posted - 2013.05.11 04:59:00 - [19] - Quote Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: ALL weapons got a 10% dmg increase? WTF's your problem? How about the fact that 1 million damage per shot is worthless if you can't shoot further than you could ****. That is the problem and before CCP nerfed HMG range with the removal of SS and for an added bonus, just for us, we would of been able to stand toe to toe with AR users and hold our own. Now though we get destroyed by all classes because if you can one shot us we can't track you as well and if you are outside our range we just simply cannot damage you. THIS IS EVERY AR USER IN THE GAME. I CCP gives us back our prenerf range on HMG, a short 3-5 meter jog wil put us in optimal of a GEK. As it stands though we now need to run 20-25 into fire to get into optimal, a heavy doesn't circle strafe.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 103	Posted - 2013.05.11 05:07:00 - [20] - Quote SoTa of PoP wrote: Schalac 17 wrote: XxWarlordxX97 wrote: What is your KD scrub Oh, here we go. We got a live one here boss. "What is your KD scrub"... Well my KD is you are nothing and I have no idea who you are to even care about your opinion. Unless it coincides with mine and then we can be friends, until that time though you do not matter. Because what you obviously want is not what I want because you are stupid... D. U. M. B. stupid. So either jump onboard or I am going to run you over with facts and knowledge. Most people that get into this type of thing with me just stop posting, I suggest you do the same. Schalac I know you have good intentions but pick your targets better. Range buff is incoming btw. Shame it'll be like the damage buff and be for all weapons though :( And that is what is sad. The other weapons do not need a range buff. I feel that every weapon as it stands today is good for what it is doing. Minus the HMG. The HMG should have the range of the assault HMG and the assault HMG needs to go back to it's range it had in chromozone. Take away the damage buff that was really just a hotfix to placate the masses and let us compete with the ARs. If we can't compete with the ARs then we as HMG wielders are worthless. I'm not even saying to give us the range the AR has, just what we had in chromozone, which was slightly shorter than the AR range, but it let us be competitive.

Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 103	Posted - 2013.05.11 05:41:00 - [21] - Quote Honestly, you guys can take your little damage boost and have fun with it while you are still nerfed in oblivion. I hate it. I need to use an assault HMG just to feel like I used to with being able to attack people that are assaulting me. But if CCP wants the heavy class to be a point defense, then buff our suits. I don't mean a little buff, I mean a real point defense buff. As a defensive character I should be able to take 3 blasts from the opposition before I am dead. That would mean that I need enough HP to eat 2 FG shells before I die as a heavy. Dead nuts full impact FG shells should not kill a defensive character such as a heavy if it is supposed to be viable at all in it's role. That would mean that SG shells are now going to be nothing more than slight annoyances to heavies. That would mean that AR users would run out of ammo before they killed a heavy. If CCP really wants the heavy to be point defense, then give us the means to be that role. Because as of now 1-2 SG shells we are dead, HMG ain't killing them scouts before they get on top of us. 1 FG shell we are dead, what good is a point defense that can be 1 shot? I honestly think that CCP nerfed HMG because some dev got owned by chicago multiple times. So he took away what killed him and now he can continue to play in his own little world unhindered.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 103	Posted - 2013.05.11 05:57:00 - [22] - Quote General Tiberius1 wrote: the heavy and it's weapons have been nerfed so often, i take what i can get these days Well, I was born in august of 2012 but only got to play since february of 2013 due to real life hindrances. But if I was around for all the HMG nerfs I would be just as vocal then as I am now. Every game I play I gravitate toward suppression and LMG/HMG. It is what I am good at. Pushing lines and providing fire support. Never once have I ever thought of a machine gun as a defensive only weapon. CCP obviously never heard of fire teams, where one guy fires and carries the gun and the other guy carries the tripod and ammo, in an offensive maneuver. Why did they do that? To push the line and provide suppressive fire during an assault. Luckily, we as heavies do not need an A-gunner because our suit is the A-gunner. No, in this game we just need the enemy to be dumb enough to come into our range because we really have none.