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CHICAGOCUBS4EVER
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Posted - 2013.05.07 19:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
Matakage wrote:Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:
ONLY way to make your heavy set up profitable, is to have a Logi player tied around your neck.
This is a team game?!?!? Who knew?!? I actually agree with you about the range thing, though. I remember CHICAGOCUBS4EVER had his HMG tweaked to nearly Tactical Assault Rifle range, and I thought that was a little extreme. However, most of the time I found the range of the HMGs prior to Uprising was perfectly acceptable, and this is coming from someone who's only played as assault.
2.7mil SP into SS and yes the HMG had insane range. I have never denied that nor have I disputed any claims that it was a bit excessive.
but the range at SS 6 or 7 was realistic, provided viability and made the game fun. Perhaps even fixing the broken percentages where everything rounded up would have resolved this on its own.
instead, lets just make the HMG and the shotgun the same range.
I'm actually fine with the damage nerf... needed? no not at all, but with the HP buff (and in honesty its not much of a buff compared to the shield variant before, its just now SLOWER and has 1 more slot on the right) it creates more imbalance.
the range is what made the heavy fun. was it a little over the top before? sure... and so was the laser, AR and pretty much everything... but their was BALANCE
honestly if they had a sharpshooter skill for heavies that increased range, i would be interested to see where it would max out with the current effective range... |
CHICAGOCUBS4EVER
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Posted - 2013.05.07 19:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:CHICAGOCUBS4EVER wrote:Matakage wrote:Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:
ONLY way to make your heavy set up profitable, is to have a Logi player tied around your neck.
This is a team game?!?!? Who knew?!? I actually agree with you about the range thing, though. I remember CHICAGOCUBS4EVER had his HMG tweaked to nearly Tactical Assault Rifle range, and I thought that was a little extreme. However, most of the time I found the range of the HMGs prior to Uprising was perfectly acceptable, and this is coming from someone who's only played as assault. 2.7mil SP into SS and yes the HMG had insane range. I have never denied that nor have I disputed any claims that it was a bit excessive. but the range at SS 6 or 7 was realistic, provided viability and made the game fun. Perhaps even fixing the broken percentages where everything rounded up would have resolved this on its own. instead, lets just make the HMG and the shotgun the same range. I'm actually fine with the damage nerf... needed? no not at all, but with the HP buff (and in honesty its not much of a buff compared to the shield variant before, its just now SLOWER and has 1 more slot on the right) it creates more imbalance. the range is what made the heavy fun. was it a little over the top before? sure... and so was the laser, AR and pretty much everything... but their was BALANCE honestly if they had a sharpshooter skill for heavies that increased range, i would be interested to see where it would max out with the current effective range... The thing about the SS skill is it was available to everyone so if you didn't have it IMO yo were slipping. I can't count the number of times I was taken out by a dot on the horizon wielding a Duvolle in about 1.5 seconds. If they had only removed everyone's SS the game would still be balanced just like it was in Chromosome
compared to what is currently presented before us, I think that would at least put things on the right track...
dont nerf range, just removed the boost we had before.
although in all honesty base range wasnt much more than it is now. few realize that cause no one in their right mind would skip over at least a couple levels of SS as early as possible
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CHICAGOCUBS4EVER
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Posted - 2013.05.08 14:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
Another Heavy SOB wrote:Musta Tornius wrote:Jesus christ guys, the optimal range was only decreased 4m. People are just unused to playing without SS causing massive qqing. This is true to an extent, most of the range shock is due to the loss of SS skill. I had SS proficiency I and a few times today when I had just rebuilt my Heavy I did find myself attempting to hit targets at 40M or so and not even registering a flash. In chromosome he'd have been shredded just as fast as if he was within 20m. I agree that SS had broken weapon balance and I could learn to live with range nerf on HMG's, Except for the buff to AR range....I played on my Assault today and I was just toying with the fatties. Even Amarr proto fits with a boundless just don't instill the fear they once did, not even in close quarters. I would simply outrun the heavy, break out to 40-50m and put down the poor waddling bastard with my Proto Tac or Burst AR. Admittedly none of the heavies I slaughtered really played Well. The damage nerf is maybe a bit too much, especially considering the loss of weaponrys passive gain. I use a Boundless with two complex damage mods with HMG proficiency V, yet it kills like a chromosome MH-82 with one complex mod and no operation proficiency. I honestly will not use anything but a Boundless or Six Kin because everything else just feels way to weak. ChromeBreaker wrote:
Theres more to it than that, its not JUST optimals, or damage, or whatever, its eveything at once. range has effected spread, that has effected dmg, that has effected tracking, that has effected speed, that has effected range...
Obviously I agree that there's more to it than Musta's statement but I'm pretty sure sharpshooter never effected "spread" or "dispersion". It simply increased maximum optimal range and maximum range. I always felt HMG became extremely accurate, a literal bullet hose out to 50m, and with SS bringing the damage out to that range it was a bit much. In my experience with Uprising I can't even make an Assault think twice about engaging me at 40m. I'm fine with an AR having a distinct advantage at 40m but I should at the very least i should do just enough damage to force him to take cover or strafe-peek from cover so I can get to my own cover, get away, close the gap if possible or hold him off until my own AR wielding squadmate can come to my aid by challenging my attackers range. This I believe is the biggest issue with HMG's in Uprising. The tracking issue I thought was just me getting comfortable with different feeling controls. Although besides noticing a decrease in turn speed I Also noticed that bullets do not leave the barrel as accurately as before while turning. Somewhat hard to explain but if you were to pivot around in circles while hip firing you may notice the bullet trails leaving the barrel at a steeper angle away from barrel than in chromosome. Maybe this has something to do with hip firing in close quarters feeling wonky, I don't know but I definitely feel it. To heavys who want to get back to kicking down doors...Boundless, HMG proficiency V, 2 Complex damage mods, Flux grenades and most importantly Close Quarters maps.
I agree with all of this. One thing to add is the sentinel is designed to be a slow moving tank, much like the previous vk0 or type A etc. the 2 biggest issues with this is all suits base HP are that of the shield variant, which previously had greater movement speed.
now ALL suits have the slower movement speed, thus removing the option for heavies to be more aggressive on the battlefield. hit detection/aim has been affected in this build as well, which has been commented on several occasions.
and people can agree or disagree about the range, here is a nice example showing how sad it has become. I'm on 1 side of the tabletop, up top, and cannot damage the guy that just climbed up on the ladder on the other side. worse yet I can barely put a dent in the shields of the guy directly below me.
I'm FORCED to stack dmg mods just to not be rendered completely useless on the battlefield, and while I am finding ways to make it work, I cannot cross a road without getting destroyed from somewhere, even when I see them shooting at me cause I shoot at them and do zero damage, while they sit there, squat down, and slowly murder my 1100+ total HP before I can cross a road.
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CHICAGOCUBS4EVER
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Posted - 2013.05.08 14:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mr Zitro wrote:SoTa of PoP wrote:Mr Zitro wrote:Alldin Kan says heavys are fine, maybe you guys need lessons So he got a proto heavy already and checked us out on higher tiers? Great - now that Aldin said so - it must be true.  Alldin only complains when something is wrong, he only complains about input lag which every gun has. Maybe you should ask alldin for the special deal on lessons for corp members
Don't mind this kid, he's just tooting the horn of the boy that said 'yes' to his prom invitation. It's a monumental time for Zitro, as he FINALLY gets to go to prom (mom said he cant go stag cause even she wanted to spare him that humiliation).
So while shopping online for matching 'his and his' tuxes and trying to find that restaurant that sets the right mood for their enchanted evening here in a few weeks, he simply cannot restrain himself from essentially shouting from the rooftops that he FINALLY got a date!
then over the next few hours he has to discretely defend his date as he doesn't want to lose his non-refundable deposit on the tuxes or the dinner reservation, all the while debating what car to rent will 'seal the deal'
bottom line, while most people see you for who you are Zitro, which is a kid with little planned for his future and obviously has spent too much time walking the streets of boyzTowN, most WOULD be able to respect a no BS review of gameplay and mechanics.. of an AR (some might even argue a tank). you have spent no time as a heavy.. except at the end of the last build when you thought u could show the world how easy it is and u gettin mopped by the janitor's cousin and his 'recruit assault rifle'
now run along, enjoy your prom and make sure to treat Alldin right(don't forget flowers...absolute necessity) that much I KNOW your mother has taught you.
and let the people who can have a dignified, constructive conversation about a REAL issue that doesn't concern yourself take place.
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CHICAGOCUBS4EVER
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Posted - 2013.05.08 14:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
HowDidThatTaste wrote:CHICAGOCUBS4EVER wrote:
I agree with all of this. One thing to add is the sentinel is designed to be a slow moving tank, much like the previous vk0 or type A etc. the 2 biggest issues with this is all suits base HP are that of the shield variant, which previously had greater movement speed.
now ALL suits have the slower movement speed, thus removing the option for heavies to be more aggressive on the battlefield. hit detection/aim has been affected in this build as well, which has been commented on several occasions.
and people can agree or disagree about the range, here is a nice example showing how sad it has become. I'm on 1 side of the tabletop, up top, and cannot damage the guy that just climbed up on the ladder on the other side. worse yet I can barely put a dent in the shields of the guy directly below me.
I'm FORCED to stack dmg mods just to not be rendered completely useless on the battlefield, and while I am finding ways to make it work, I cannot cross a road without getting destroyed from somewhere, even when I see them shooting at me cause I shoot at them and do zero damage, while they sit there, squat down, and slowly murder my 1100+ total HP before I can cross a road.
Apparently by the devs comments someone has determined what the heavy role should be in this sandbox game. Which is definetly different from its original toe to toe with vehicles and survive description. By their new definition you should not be crossing roads on these huge planets with large maps and dynamic game play. You should stand in one spot for the whole match and enjoy it, you are not designed to be relevant for 90% of the game and for 10% be a beast holding a letter. Maybe for corp battles it would be with it, but for the rest of the games available to play they have now told us what are role is being designed for.
sadly I get that feeling as well. the worst part is, in organized gameplay (CB, PC etc.) many if not most teams utilize a heavy in this regard, armor tanking holding down a small area. Currently that's not even an option.. we're all shield suits that move as slow as armor tanks. I dislike the lack of different suit options... I mean the shield variant had its uses, most notably mobility to allow fat boys to be on the 'frontlines' in situations. Pushing an objective was a big role of a heavy. now you cant push out of wherever you spawn, or ANY other class sneaking up on you, running circles around you, then you simply fall over from being dizzy |
CHICAGOCUBS4EVER
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Posted - 2013.05.08 15:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Drogan Reeth wrote:CCP Remnant wrote:ChromeBreaker wrote:CCP Remnant wrote:I don't hate the Heavies. Or the HMG. Well, actually, I hate everyone on the planet equally so technically I guess that means I hate no-one (we're all snowflakes!)  Good to see some intelligent debate and solid points in this thread, so thanks for that! Just wanted to jump in an explain the thinking behind some of the recent changes. - The SS skill had to go. It should never have been there in the first place as it pushed all weapons well beyond their intended ranges and with more racial variants coming into the game (rail rifle, combat rifle etc.) it was more important than ever to have cleaner range profiles for all weaponry. - The Sentinel was designed primarily as a point defense role. His speed and slow turn rate make him unsuitable for frontline combat. His presence should make anyone think twice before approaching a position. I'm not sure but it seems to me that a lot of the complaints about the ineffectiveness of the HMG stem from the fact that people want to use it to lead the charge into enemy territory. The HMG is not well suited for use in open areas but it comes into its own when used in outposts where targets are confined to narrow spaces. And at close range, the HMG is still very effective, I believe. The HMG's optimal range is up to 30m and max. effective range caps out at 50m. (This is currently a hard cap - all weapons stop doing any damage beyond their max range - but we're going to be fixing this soon. Like soon soon, not SOON(tm).) What it needs is not a damage buff (it kills just fine) but a gentler damage falloff curve so that it can be used as an effective suppression weapon in the 50-70m range. As an attacker, right now it's too easy to shrug off the hits and close the gap between yourself and the person wielding the HMG so that's something I'd like to address as soon as possible. Other smaller tweaks like lessening kick (which gets pretty excessive as the weapon nears its heat threshold) and a modest improvement in how quickly the weapon reaches optimal dispersion should make it feel much better. Anyway, thanks for the ten-page thread, guys. I look forward to the next ten pages!  You cant do that. Your effectivly restricting an entire playstyle. As a heavy i dont want to be stuck defending the whole time, i put forward that charging the breach is just as much our job. We cant even try to do that. we havent got the range to put down damage, we have to much spread to concentraight fire, we dont have the damage to hurt a target. putting those three together hurt just too much. We do do damage at close range its true... if our target stands still, you hit our tracking and movement speed too. We cant track anything at close range. You made us a close range fighter and then made it impossible to target anything close We didn't touch the movement and tracking speed on the Sentinel suit. Do you realize that in reality anything with a slow turning rate their main weakness is close range? You basically designed a class that has the main advantage of close range dmg and the main weakness of close range because it can't turn. But at the same time they can't hit anything at range. You can kill proto heavy's with miltia scouts and assaults now. They are beyond broken. Not a little bit broken, needs tweeks broken, completly utterly don't use this class, don't waste you sp broken. They where already lossing to proto assaults pre patch. If you undo the dmg nerf, and undo the range nerf, you would still have to give them a turning rate buff, then MAYBE they would be a usuable class in corp matches at proto level when playing with good fps players. I understand that you where looking at some stats that say they were too strong in pub matches. But if you balance a class on pub matches where new players in militia fittings charge heavy's head on then they will be broken forever. Take a page from blizzard entertainment and balance the game for the top tier players or you will end up with a game thats fun for noobs to play around with all sorts of fitting and all the top tier players will have 1 fitting worth using.
in a nutshell... +1 |
CHICAGOCUBS4EVER
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Posted - 2013.05.09 13:15:00 -
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Ludvig Enraga wrote:I love this thread. CCP takes out the 'Heavy + HMG = I win button' and here comes a river of tears. It's funny to think that all those ppl that thought they had gun skills now realize that they did not have anything that CCP did not spoon feed them.
well EVERY heavy in this game musta never seen this button.
the sad truth is I am the ONLY dedicated heavy that is near the top of the leaderboard. Not gloating or anything, but if it was sooooo good before there would be a lot of company at the top, as there are quite a few fatboys out there that are more skilled than myself.
it seems like everyone with the experience behind the wheel so to speak is in agreement of the issues the HMG and the heavy in general currently have, and that we at LEAST have confirmation that CCP knows about it and is looking into how they can improve it likely while trying to maintain their idea of 'balance' in the game.
turn speed, movement and just hit detection in general (very prevalent in heavy but I know all other classes having issues as well).
Sure it could possibly be a dispersion issue, but when Im on top of a group INSIDE 10m and and lighting up 2-3 grouped together and I see damn near NO damage to their health.. there is an issue.
other players don't even run away then shoot like they did on day 1. Now they just stay where they are, take the little damage they get and put me down, moving onto the next target.
I'd say right now about 80% of my kills are from nades and Orbitals, which is sad. I get the feeling more and more that the heavy class should just be renamed to the soon(tm) crusader class. I keep orders up and call out where they are, and then just try to stay alive. OR just run around in a forge and blow up everything the other team decides to bring in, getting easy WP.
As stubborn as I am and as much as I TRY to make the HMG work, I just haven't found that groove yet.
another example.. I get a guy at around 10-12m out in the open, fire away at him and start to melt him, then all of a sudden he stops taking damage. NOT cause he ran away, took to cover, or anything of the sort, but that the bullets that WERE destroying him all of a sudden turned into DUST before his very eyes.. prolly the most frustrating thing |
CHICAGOCUBS4EVER
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Posted - 2013.05.09 13:47:00 -
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martinofski wrote:CHICAGOCUBS4EVER wrote:
As stubborn as I am and as much as I TRY to make the HMG work, I just haven't found that groove yet.
another example.. I get a guy at around 10-12m out in the open, fire away at him and start to melt him, then all of a sudden he stops taking damage. NOT cause he ran away, took to cover, or anything of the sort, but that the bullets that WERE destroying him all of a sudden turned into DUST before his very eyes.. prolly the most frustrating thing
I totally agree with you and all other people who dedicated to the Heavy class with HMG. I did skill up into it, even though I knew the HMG suck at the moment. Love the class itself. Can't trash it away, even though I almost did. I did some game last night and experienced the same thing while shooting a guy at less than 10m in a scout suit (he wasn't even moving). He emptied a full clip on me, reloaded and start shooting again while I was holding my fire right on is chest. Really felt like shooting pellets. I loled hard. I should have knock him with the elbow twice, he would have died faster. 2-3 time I got circled around by assault and scout which emptied 2-3 clips on me. The HP of the heavy is great, but useless when you can even counter attack in CQC. I was litterally holding the stick completely to turn as fast as I could, they were pulling ahead, laughing as I shoot nowhere in circle...I actually laughed too, but it is lame for a low range, low dmg, low speed class.
this happened before... when a SCOUT got in your face... it was a pain then, but not something you would complain is an issue with the game. scouts are supposed to be extremely nimble and those that do it well can attest and undoubtedly share stories of their many heavy do-si-do encounters.
but now EVERYONE can do it (aside from the hillbilly heavy square dance competition broadcast from the cornfields of southern Iowa)
but yea I think tonight I might just run around with an SMG and try my luck, at least it seems to do consistent damage within its 5m range
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CHICAGOCUBS4EVER
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Posted - 2013.05.09 14:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
yea im fully skilled into forge and I run with it prolly 70% of the time atm. im trying for that # not to increase but I can at least kill people with the forge. although splash radius is broken, direct hits literally make the enemy evaporate. brings a smile to my face with each and every kill ;)
their body doesn't fly 20 feet into the air anymore, it literally evaporates... quite an entertaining animation that hasn't gotten old yet.
plus forge sniping is the ultimate challenge. keeps me busy while I keep trying to brainstorm ways to make the HMG viable, which ive had no luck with so far..
and ive got a couple levels into optimization. I JUST did this cause I wanted to put on complex armor plates, which are PG intensive.
other than that its a 6x skill I don't see a use for at this time. maybe down the road if I skill up the SMG and rock proto SMG along with everything else, but Ive had zero issues with space to this point, and that's with a freedom or ishukone AND proto nades. The upside of the new skill tree is the ability to create more space rather easily (with a pile of SP that is) |
CHICAGOCUBS4EVER
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Posted - 2013.05.09 14:19:00 -
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General Tiberius1 wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Grenadez Rollack wrote:I'm ready to hear from someone who has tried the heavy with a good laser. I was thinking that may be a good way to be the point defense man. Camp objective woth laser and smg and grenades Heavies don't use lasers. Heavies use HMGs or FG (REAL Heavies) Cowardly CoD and Halo players who want to get as many kills as they can before they die step into a Heavy suit and strap on a LR and sit somewhere near their max rang and pick targets. lol, real heavies are broke SoB's as i don't intend to throw my money away on a broken PoS, i am now using my skinweave heavy with basic **** till something is done to improve said heavies
I have to disagree, before we all got our government checks on Monday I had over 220mil ISK, and as the last build went further in I used a roughly 200k fit almost exclusively.
NOW I run proto all the time, with proto gun AND proto nades.. and my fit is still around 200k. one thing we can all agree on is the heavy has increased survivability, allowing us to use better stuff and still being able to make money.
I get anywhere from 200-500k ISK per match, and over any 10 game span I come out on top in the $ department at least.
1 of the worst things about the heavy now.. if you want to have an effect on the battlefield you simply cannot run the cheap stuff anymore. I have a hard enough time putting people down with a boundless or freedom, I cannot even imagine the frustration of using an MH82 like I did often previously |
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CHICAGOCUBS4EVER
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:44:00 -
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Tiberion Deci wrote:martinofski wrote:Caineghis Beoulve wrote:We are forgetting the most important part here, is that the HMG is not fixed, we need the HMG to be able to perform our job, be it as a defender or as an attacker.
We need the HMG restored to Chromosome stats, that was really balanced Would need to be rebalanced concidering all other weapon got changed. Wouldn't bet as balanced as it was if exactly as before. But, yes Let focus on HMG. Maybe we should pull some numbers to help the devs. I will look at some stuff tonight and see if I can post something. Testing with blue mate let say for distances. I thought the chromosone stats were fine. Non hmg users just didn't realize the range was "ridiculous" because all heavies worth their salt HAD to get sharpshooter to at least level 8 to be worth anything because that's what all the light weapon users did. It was an arms race that was fair (except lasers, sorry), but we got thw shortest end of the stick when everything got rebalanced.
no even then it wasnt fair.. .heavy was 3x/6x vs light weapons at 2x/5x
so not only did we get sh@t on by the constant QQ of our range, but no one aside from us ever acknowledged that it cost us a fair amount more to have those similar ranges.
one of the biggest things from before. now the SP cost seems balanced at least, now to balance the in game result |
CHICAGOCUBS4EVER
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Posted - 2013.05.10 18:53:00 -
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Im just glad to see that the system actually works... a game-breaking issue arose, players from all corners of the globe chimed in to give the devs insight, and the devs acted..ALL within a 4 day span!!
impressive by any standards in gaming, and shows theres still hope...
"just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in"  |
CHICAGOCUBS4EVER
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Posted - 2013.06.06 17:17:00 -
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I can honestly see different variants having different movement speeds.
Im totally fine with movement speed as is, if u wanna be faster, get your biotics up
turn speed is really the only issue with heavies that still requires addressing.
that and the broken hit detection and super LAV speed but those are for different discussions.
turn speed is still sadly ridiculous, even with sensitivity maxed |
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