DUST Search - HMG Review (as unbiased as possible...I promise :D )

Canari Elphus wrote:

Master Jaraiya wrote:

Canari Elphus wrote:

As a medium frame user, I can attest to the uselessness of the heavy. As the scrambler rifle is days away, I am running only Starter fits and the Dragonfly + Militia AR. I have been able to take down many advanced heavies by easy headshots at what should be their optimal range. With the hard cap on their range, you can just stand there and tease them as they shoot marshmallows at you. While its all fun now, its not fair to the heavy users.

I can only imagine what its like when these same heavies go against someone who has a built suit and a good AR. I agree with what most people are saying.. keep the range numbers where they are now, buff the damage and adjust the kick/spread so they arent constantly working against each other.

To me the kick isn't a problem...the HMG isn't supposed to be so easy to control because of the power it is supposed to dish out.

Buff damage and Increase range thereby reducing spread at optimal range. I think decreasing spread directly will just make it more like the shotgun.

Understood, but it seems that the issue is that the kick and spread are working against each other here. That as the spread tightens, the kick increases. I may be wrong here as Im not a HMG user (others can confirm).

I think that there needs to be a balance to the HMG. Either it starts off solid and gets wilder as you spray or the opposite. All I know is that I shouldnt be able to easily take down an ADV Heavy/HMG with a Militia BPO and no skills in AR in a stand-up fight. I agree with CCP in that we need more specialization to make this game shine but the HMG is too specialized right now and is only viable in very unique situations.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3750	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:34:00 - [211] - Quote CCP Remnant wrote: The HMG's optimal range is up to 30m and max. effective range caps out at 50m So the HMG is a sidearm now
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp Orion Empire 20	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:36:00 - [212] - Quote ChromeBreaker wrote: movement speed is down as the "shield" varient is gone and so is their movement bonus. For tracking consider this a bug report, or that its become more aparent in this build. I played heavy the entire beta, I can not keep my recitle on target. At range spread forces you to look down the sights, which cant keep on anyone not walking. closer... it seems the fluidity of aiming slows directiion change, and/or causes over shooting. CCP Remnant wrote: Please don't take this as me being snarky, but you guys do know that the HMG dispersion get tighter the longer you fire it, right? Dispertion gets tighter... Kick goes up too I honestly only feel like this is due to the other classes movement buff in the form of strafe sprinting.It makes the much harder to track and keep on target.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet 826	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:38:00 - [213] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: I honestly only feel like this is due to the other classes movement buff in the form of strafe sprinting.It makes the much harder to track and keep on target. it's the reticle. at 20-30 meters the target usually fills 40% or so of a constricted targetting reticle. so they fill maybe 40% of the cone of fire for the HMG. By the way I love that you guys actually used that.
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp Orion Empire 20	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:39:00 - [214] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Remnant wrote: The HMG's optimal range is up to 30m and max. effective range caps out at 50m So the HMG is a sidearm now Lol not quite.
Sontie Ill Omens EoN. 272	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:40:00 - [215] - Quote Something is definitely wrong. I run winmatar scout with 2/3 complex shield extenders and I fear no heavy. He doesn't do enough damage accurately enough to be feared. I have solo'ed many a proto heavy today at about 10-20 meters with a tactical AR. I once, for lolz, pulled my nova knives out and repeatedly stabbed a proto heavy until he died. ADV knives. He backed himself into a corner. He just couldn't track me. And when I would circle him in the other direction, running though his stream of bullets, it wouldn't do enough damage to matter. I know what you're thinking, "Thats what he gets for trying to solo." He wasn't solo. There were other red dots around, but because of the way scanning and spotting got nerfed, his teammates had no idea I was wrecking their heavy. Poor heavy.
Sontie Ill Omens EoN. 272	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:41:00 - [216] - Quote you can't fire while strafe sprinting...
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp Orion Empire 20	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:43:00 - [217] - Quote Sontie wrote: you can't fire while strafe sprinting... No but you can strafe sprint circles around heavies and stop whenever you feel like it to take a few shots and there is nothing a heavy can do to stop you.
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 437	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:46:00 - [218] - Quote Sontie wrote: you can't fire while strafe sprinting... you dont need to, just get out of my field of fire and your golden. very quick, very easy
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet 826	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:46:00 - [219] - Quote focus guys we have a dev paying attention. try not to get sidetracked and give the man as much info as you can. I need to go to bed. 4am debating balance in DUST. I really am an irredeemable nerd.
Musta Tornius BetaMax. CRONOS. 323	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:47:00 - [220] - Quote Jesus christ guys, the optimal range was only decreased 4m. People are just unused to playing without SS causing massive qqing.

Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp Orion Empire 20	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:47:00 - [221] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: focus guys we have a dev paying attention. try not to get sidetracked and give the man as much info as you can. I need to go to bed. 4am debating balance in DUST. I really am an irredeemable nerd. god do I know that feeling
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp Orion Empire 20	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:51:00 - [222] - Quote Honestly I think adjusting the range so that we get optimal spread at 30m range and adjusting the damage up about 2.5 points would solve the problems heavies are facing. I know 2.5 sounds like a lot but remember as someone else pointed out we are no longer getting buffed by the Weaponry skill.
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 438	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:52:00 - [223] - Quote Musta Tornius wrote: Jesus christ guys, the optimal range was only decreased 4m. People are just unused to playing without SS causing massive qqing. Theres more to it than that, its not JUST optimals, or damage, or whatever, its eveything at once. range has effected spread, that has effected dmg, that has effected tracking, that has effected speed, that has effected range...
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp Orion Empire 20	Posted - 2013.05.08 11:58:00 - [224] - Quote ChromeBreaker wrote: Musta Tornius wrote: Jesus christ guys, the optimal range was only decreased 4m. People are just unused to playing without SS causing massive qqing. Theres more to it than that, its not JUST optimals, or damage, or whatever, its eveything at once. range has effected spread, that has effected dmg, that has effected tracking, that has effected speed, that has effected range... Increasing the range will in turn make the spread better at what is supposed to be our optimal range. Increasing damage will let us be more effective at cqc so that when someone does get close we hit hard enough to make them think twice about sticking around to test their limits.
TECH-SARGE Talon Strike Force LTD Orion Empire 1	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:08:00 - [225] - Quote Musta Tornius wrote: Jesus christ guys, the optimal range was only decreased 4m. People are just unused to playing without SS causing massive qqing. It's not the range that is the major problem, it's the damage output combined with the accuracy that needs to be looked at. I mean a decrease of 4m is nothing but a 20% downgrade of the base damage might have been a little bit too much. Also the fact that the tracking at close range for the heavy is crap doesn't make it any better. Heavies are not scary anymore and the heavy should be something an assault would want to avoid.
Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 84	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:19:00 - [226] - Quote As a medium frame user, I can attest to the uselessness of the heavy. As the scrambler rifle is days away, I am running only Starter fits and the Dragonfly + Militia AR. I have been able to take down many advanced heavies by easy headshots at what should be their optimal range. With the hard cap on their range, you can just stand there and tease them as they shoot marshmallows at you. While its all fun now, its not fair to the heavy users. I can only imagine what its like when these same heavies go against someone who has a built suit and a good AR. I agree with what most people are saying.. keep the range numbers where they are now, buff the damage and adjust the kick/spread so they arent constantly working against each other.
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp Orion Empire 20	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:27:00 - [227] - Quote Canari Elphus wrote: As a medium frame user, I can attest to the uselessness of the heavy. As the scrambler rifle is days away, I am running only Starter fits and the Dragonfly + Militia AR. I have been able to take down many advanced heavies by easy headshots at what should be their optimal range. With the hard cap on their range, you can just stand there and tease them as they shoot marshmallows at you. While its all fun now, its not fair to the heavy users. I can only imagine what its like when these same heavies go against someone who has a built suit and a good AR. I agree with what most people are saying.. keep the range numbers where they are now, buff the damage and adjust the kick/spread so they arent constantly working against each other. To me the kick isn't a problem...the HMG isn't supposed to be so easy to control because of the power it is supposed to dish out. Buff damage and Increase range thereby reducing spread at optimal range. I think decreasing spread directly will just make it more like the shotgun.
Snagman 313 Carbon 7 65	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:28:00 - [228] - Quote TECH-SARGE wrote: Musta Tornius wrote: Jesus christ guys, the optimal range was only decreased 4m. People are just unused to playing without SS causing massive qqing. It's not the range that is the major problem, it's the damage output combined with the accuracy that needs to be looked at. I mean a decrease of 4m is nothing but a 20% downgrade of the base damage might have been a little bit too much. Also the fact that the tracking at close range for the heavy is crap doesn't make it any better. Heavies are not scary anymore and the heavy should be something an assault would want to avoid. I think I'll hop onto this thread as Zion Shads has gone a bit far back in the list now. Agreed with the OP however damage reduction was 12.5%. I'm not being arsey but I've been crunching the numbers since the update came out. If you want a laugh check out the DPS on the Assault HMG and compare it to the basic AR I'll probably put up my day 3 as a heavy review on this thread later tonight since this one has some serious staying power. Regards Snag
Grimmnyr Odynson WarRavens Orion Empire 2	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:33:00 - [229] - Quote These nerfs are just over the top. Between Weaponry, SS, damage and range nerf, combined with the sluggishness of the controls a lot of us are experiencing, the HMG is not in a good spot, which as our biggest and most used weapon puts the Heavy class in a bad spot. Please just revert the damage/range nerf and then leave us alone.
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 438	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:34:00 - [230] - Quote Thats a point, the general HP buff was a nice touch, really feel solid now... but it doesnt go on enough, im getting more kills with my FG

Thor McStrut Terminal Pharmaceuticals Inc. 2	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:35:00 - [231] - Quote I'm not a HMG user, so I'm not familiar at all. But have the devs given any confirmation why they reduced range on top of the SS nerf? It seems to me that the SS nerf would have been sufficient to start with, then start tweaking optimal and falloff as feedback comes in. I'm betting that no changes were needed at all to damage and spread.
Tiberion Deci Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 121	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:36:00 - [232] - Quote CCP Remnant wrote: That's odd. Is that 20m as seen from the target intel info on-screen? I double-checked the curves like five minutes ago and they're definitely 30m for optimal range. I'll investigate further. I will be uploading my gameplay from the past couple days to youtube soon. Is there a way you guys at CCP could take a look at it? See if everything is working as intended?
Snagman 313 Carbon 7 65	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:37:00 - [233] - Quote Tiberion Deci wrote: CCP Remnant wrote: That's odd. Is that 20m as seen from the target intel info on-screen? I double-checked the curves like five minutes ago and they're definitely 30m for optimal range. I'll investigate further. I will be uploading my gameplay from the past couple days to youtube soon. Is there a way you guys at CCP could take a look at it? See if everything is working as intended? Be sure to post a link bud, I would like to see how other heavies are fairing with the new stats. Regards Snag
Xerics Red Star. EoN. 16	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:42:00 - [234] - Quote CCP Remnant wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Remnant wrote: Things relevant to my interest proto HMG lost two high slots for complex mods, lost weaponry bonus, lost over 20% base damage. Excellent point. I'd forgotten that they were being buffed by the blanket bonus to all weapon damage given by the weaponry skill. Is this the case in all weapons? because the laser rifle lost alot of damage as well and gained a faster heat build and larger feedback with the crappiest sights I have ever seen. Drop the iron sights and get us a new targeting system. No reason for a laser to have the sights of a WW1 weapon. Should be integrated into the suit or something with how much feedback damage it does to us.
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp Orion Empire 20	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:47:00 - [235] - Quote Xerics wrote: CCP Remnant wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Remnant wrote: Things relevant to my interest proto HMG lost two high slots for complex mods, lost weaponry bonus, lost over 20% base damage. Excellent point. I'd forgotten that they were being buffed by the blanket bonus to all weapon damage given by the weaponry skill. Is this the case in all weapons? because the laser rifle lost alot of damage as well and gained a faster heat build and larger feedback with the crappiest sights I have ever seen. Drop the iron sights and get us a new targeting system. No reason for a laser to have the sights of a WW1 weapon. Should be integrated into the suit or something with how much feedback damage it does to us. Lasers have the same damage as before the only difference is you actually have to hold it on a merc and let it build up...no more light sabering.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 51	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:49:00 - [236] - Quote Just reading the last couple of pages, something is really showing off to me and most probably others. The optimal range for the AR is definately meaning something different than the optimal range of the HMG. SPREAD is the factor which make the difference on the HMG. It as always been huge compared to the AR and other guns. In uprising, AR have spread from what I can see, but they also got a skill for that, so higher lvls are less affected. So you can aim the ennemy at 50M and hit the guy effectively. (not sure about the exact optimum distance, sorry). HMG spread can't be reduced. No matter how hard you aim to the middle of the guy, only a small % of the bullets will hit at 20m+. So I think the optimal range on the HMG need to be analysed in a different way then the other weapon if we keep the actual spread. Or the spread need to reduce from basic gun to the adv and proto, even more since the dmg are about the same for all now. Looking at the answers from CCP Remnant here, I got some confidence the HMG will be relooked at really soon AND explanation will be given about their mindset about the changes they will do. I will look at getting some points in HMG tonight most probably, but will for sure put also point in the Forge as a plan B. On the dropsuits: I do understand the Sentinel is a defensive dropsuit and this is why it isn't moving fast (in a heavy perspective). To bad no maps right now really benefit that role. you will always have a point of view on that hidden heavy to shot him from outside is range. I think with the current maps design, we should have received another race for the heavy, a shield, fast version for "running" around and turning at reasonnable speeds so we can track the guy running and jumping in minmatar logi using their 4high,4low,4equip setup and duvolles. This patch was indead bad for the heavys since you either use what is available and run the sentinel that you don't want, or you do like me and don't upgrade the dropsuit and use the militia one to save your SP.
Another Heavy SOB TRUE TEA BAGGERS Orion Empire 61	Posted - 2013.05.08 13:02:00 - [237] - Quote Musta Tornius wrote: Jesus christ guys, the optimal range was only decreased 4m. People are just unused to playing without SS causing massive qqing. This is true to an extent, most of the range shock is due to the loss of SS skill. I had SS proficiency I and a few times today when I had just rebuilt my Heavy I did find myself attempting to hit targets at 40M or so and not even registering a flash. In chromosome he'd have been shredded just as fast as if he was within 20m. I agree that SS had broken weapon balance and I could learn to live with range nerf on HMG's, Except for the buff to AR range....I played on my Assault today and I was just toying with the fatties. Even Amarr proto fits with a boundless just don't instill the fear they once did, not even in close quarters. I would simply outrun the heavy, break out to 40-50m and put down the poor waddling bastard with my Proto Tac or Burst AR. Admittedly none of the heavies I slaughtered really played Well. The damage nerf is maybe a bit too much, especially considering the loss of weaponrys passive gain. I use a Boundless with two complex damage mods with HMG proficiency V, yet it kills like a chromosome MH-82 with one complex mod and no operation proficiency. I honestly will not use anything but a Boundless or Six Kin because everything else just feels way to weak. ChromeBreaker wrote: Theres more to it than that, its not JUST optimals, or damage, or whatever, its eveything at once. range has effected spread, that has effected dmg, that has effected tracking, that has effected speed, that has effected range... Obviously I agree that there's more to it than Musta's statement but I'm pretty sure sharpshooter never effected "spread" or "dispersion". It simply increased maximum optimal range and maximum range. I always felt HMG became extremely accurate, a literal bullet hose out to 50m, and with SS bringing the damage out to that range it was a bit much. In my experience with Uprising I can't even make an Assault think twice about engaging me at 40m. I'm fine with an AR having a distinct advantage at 40m but I should at the very least i should do just enough damage to force him to take cover or strafe-peek from cover so I can get to my own cover, get away, close the gap if possible or hold him off until my own AR wielding squadmate can come to my aid by challenging my attackers range. This I believe is the biggest issue with HMG's in Uprising. The tracking issue I thought was just me getting comfortable with different feeling controls. Although besides noticing a decrease in turn speed I Also noticed that bullets do not leave the barrel as accurately as before while turning. Somewhat hard to explain but if you were to pivot around in circles while hip firing you may notice the bullet trails leaving the barrel at a steeper angle away from barrel than in chromosome. Maybe this has something to do with hip firing in close quarters feeling wonky, I don't know but I definitely feel it. To heavys who want to get back to kicking down doors...Boundless, HMG proficiency V, 2 Complex damage mods, Flux grenades and most importantly Close Quarters maps.
Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 84	Posted - 2013.05.08 13:20:00 - [238] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: Canari Elphus wrote: As a medium frame user, I can attest to the uselessness of the heavy. As the scrambler rifle is days away, I am running only Starter fits and the Dragonfly + Militia AR. I have been able to take down many advanced heavies by easy headshots at what should be their optimal range. With the hard cap on their range, you can just stand there and tease them as they shoot marshmallows at you. While its all fun now, its not fair to the heavy users. I can only imagine what its like when these same heavies go against someone who has a built suit and a good AR. I agree with what most people are saying.. keep the range numbers where they are now, buff the damage and adjust the kick/spread so they arent constantly working against each other. To me the kick isn't a problem...the HMG isn't supposed to be so easy to control because of the power it is supposed to dish out. Buff damage and Increase range thereby reducing spread at optimal range. I think decreasing spread directly will just make it more like the shotgun. Understood, but it seems that the issue is that the kick and spread are working against each other here. That as the spread tightens, the kick increases. I may be wrong here as Im not a HMG user (others can confirm). I think that there needs to be a balance to the HMG. Either it starts off solid and gets wilder as you spray or the opposite. All I know is that I shouldnt be able to easily take down an ADV Heavy/HMG with a Militia BPO and no skills in AR in a stand-up fight. I agree with CCP in that we need more specialization to make this game shine but the HMG is too specialized right now and is only viable in very unique situations.
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 196	Posted - 2013.05.08 13:37:00 - [239] - Quote Still a single other post mentioning why the current Amarr Sentinel bonus is not worth the x10 training multiplier...
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp Orion Empire 20	Posted - 2013.05.08 13:44:00 - [240] - Quote Canari Elphus wrote: Master Jaraiya wrote: Canari Elphus wrote: As a medium frame user, I can attest to the uselessness of the heavy. As the scrambler rifle is days away, I am running only Starter fits and the Dragonfly + Militia AR. I have been able to take down many advanced heavies by easy headshots at what should be their optimal range. With the hard cap on their range, you can just stand there and tease them as they shoot marshmallows at you. While its all fun now, its not fair to the heavy users. I can only imagine what its like when these same heavies go against someone who has a built suit and a good AR. I agree with what most people are saying.. keep the range numbers where they are now, buff the damage and adjust the kick/spread so they arent constantly working against each other. To me the kick isn't a problem...the HMG isn't supposed to be so easy to control because of the power it is supposed to dish out. Buff damage and Increase range thereby reducing spread at optimal range. I think decreasing spread directly will just make it more like the shotgun. Understood, but it seems that the issue is that the kick and spread are working against each other here. That as the spread tightens, the kick increases. I may be wrong here as Im not a HMG user (others can confirm). I think that there needs to be a balance to the HMG. Either it starts off solid and gets wilder as you spray or the opposite. All I know is that I shouldnt be able to easily take down an ADV Heavy/HMG with a Militia BPO and no skills in AR in a stand-up fight. I agree with CCP in that we need more specialization to make this game shine but the HMG is too specialized right now and is only viable in very unique situations. I would agree they are working against eachother, but only because the damage isn't there to justify it.



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