DUST Search - HMG Review (as unbiased as possible...I promise :D )

Emi Love wrote:

CCP Remnant wrote:

martinofski wrote:

I think with the current maps design, we should have received another race for the heavy, a shield, fast version for "running" around and turning at reasonnable speeds so we can track the guy running and jumping in minmatar logi using their 4high,4low,4equip setup and duvolles.

This patch was indead bad for the heavys since you either use what is available and run the sentinel that you don't want, or you do like me and don't upgrade the dropsuit and use the militia one to save your SP.

Yeah... right now only the Amarr heavy frame model is complete. In Uprising we've started pushing all the suits more into specific race profiles, but of course when you're missing 75% of the other frame options you're bound to have some balance holes. The Caldari, Minmatar and Gallente heavy frames are coming, but not as soon as we'd all like.

To that point though, how would you guys like us to approach that? Would you want Type-IIs and more sidegrade variants to tide you over until the other suits come online? (Even knowing that we'll probably retire them once the others arrive?)

I think that this would be a good idea, a few different variants as you stated it might be a while until the rest of the suits arrive

My suggestion would be shield variant, (400-550 hp)
Less armor - (around 200- 280 hp should be in line with the overall buff)
2 hi slots
1 low
And the rest stand ard for heavys

A heavy suit with dual light and heavy weapon slot
Comes with equal armor and shield (300-400 each)
Only 1 hi and low slots
And the grenade slot
However has lower cpu/pg overall as well, even after maxed circuitry and other cpu/pg enhancing skills (this is to help balance this suit so two proto weapons pretty much takes all of the cpu /pg for the suit, or can run a advance secondary weapon and fit a high/low mod)

Not sure what else, but I think it would be a good idea to at least have some variety even if only for it gets taken away when the racial suits get here, in I'm assuming 6months - ish

Also I didn't mention how to fix the hmg as enough ppl have giving you good/great advice already,

Also thanks for engaging in the thread CCP Remnant


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 51	Posted - 2013.05.07 19:07:00 - [1] - Quote Your right lance, they should check how many heavy there is now compare to the last built also I guess. I was heavy, right now I am nothing, just waiting for something to happen and hoping it will. It feel like CCP looked at the forum when people were complaining heavy were OP every 5 topics, then started working on uprising while the forum turned around and said heavy needed a small buff to dropsuits and that HMG were fine, even with the sharpshooter, because heavy was still weak in corp battle when in proto vs proto.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 51	Posted - 2013.05.07 19:12:00 - [2] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: I know for a fact many heavies have switched over to light infantry and it saddens me. Personally after using all classes and finding my niche, i can't see myself playing this game if I'm not a heavy. Same, I am just glad I haven't spent a skill point on anything. I do suck alot now though. Still manage to do a 1 KDR driving the LAV
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 51	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:49:00 - [3] - Quote Just reading the last couple of pages, something is really showing off to me and most probably others. The optimal range for the AR is definately meaning something different than the optimal range of the HMG. SPREAD is the factor which make the difference on the HMG. It as always been huge compared to the AR and other guns. In uprising, AR have spread from what I can see, but they also got a skill for that, so higher lvls are less affected. So you can aim the ennemy at 50M and hit the guy effectively. (not sure about the exact optimum distance, sorry). HMG spread can't be reduced. No matter how hard you aim to the middle of the guy, only a small % of the bullets will hit at 20m+. So I think the optimal range on the HMG need to be analysed in a different way then the other weapon if we keep the actual spread. Or the spread need to reduce from basic gun to the adv and proto, even more since the dmg are about the same for all now. Looking at the answers from CCP Remnant here, I got some confidence the HMG will be relooked at really soon AND explanation will be given about their mindset about the changes they will do. I will look at getting some points in HMG tonight most probably, but will for sure put also point in the Forge as a plan B. On the dropsuits: I do understand the Sentinel is a defensive dropsuit and this is why it isn't moving fast (in a heavy perspective). To bad no maps right now really benefit that role. you will always have a point of view on that hidden heavy to shot him from outside is range. I think with the current maps design, we should have received another race for the heavy, a shield, fast version for "running" around and turning at reasonnable speeds so we can track the guy running and jumping in minmatar logi using their 4high,4low,4equip setup and duvolles. This patch was indead bad for the heavys since you either use what is available and run the sentinel that you don't want, or you do like me and don't upgrade the dropsuit and use the militia one to save your SP.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 55	Posted - 2013.05.09 13:30:00 - [4] - Quote CHICAGOCUBS4EVER wrote: As stubborn as I am and as much as I TRY to make the HMG work, I just haven't found that groove yet. another example.. I get a guy at around 10-12m out in the open, fire away at him and start to melt him, then all of a sudden he stops taking damage. NOT cause he ran away, took to cover, or anything of the sort, but that the bullets that WERE destroying him all of a sudden turned into DUST before his very eyes.. prolly the most frustrating thing I totally agree with you and all other people who dedicated to the Heavy class with HMG. I did skill up into it, even though I knew the HMG suck at the moment. Love the class itself. Can't trash it away, even though I almost did. I did some game last night and experienced the same thing while shooting a guy at less than 10m in a scout suit (he wasn't even moving). He emptied a full clip on me, reloaded and start shooting again while I was holding my fire right on is chest. Really felt like shooting pellets. I loled hard. I should have knock him with the elbow twice, he would have died faster. 2-3 time I got circled around by assault and scout which emptied 2-3 clips on me. The HP of the heavy is great, but useless when you can even counter attack in CQC. I was litterally holding the stick completely to turn as fast as I could, they were pulling ahead, laughing as I shoot nowhere in circle...I actually laughed too, but it is lame for a low range, low dmg, low speed class.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 55	Posted - 2013.05.09 14:00:00 - [5] - Quote I know they could do it before, but it was a little harder for them to get close at the time. Now they can run straight at you while strafing a little during the time you are shooting them and then circle around until you are dead. No need to get close from the back unnoticed. more cqc dmg would help. Map are so small in ambush, that if they fail to finish you because another blue killed them, they come back in a instant the finish you of the same way they started. Did you skilled in forge Chicago? I do have killed more with the SMG or grenades than the HMG I think. I got about 1.5M SP left to spend, waiting for the output of this to see if I go all out in forge. But the optimization skill at the end of the HMG tree tell me I should wait for the customizable HMG... single barrel HMG
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 57	Posted - 2013.05.09 17:06:00 - [6] - Quote CCP Remnant wrote: martinofski wrote: I think with the current maps design, we should have received another race for the heavy, a shield, fast version for "running" around and turning at reasonnable speeds so we can track the guy running and jumping in minmatar logi using their 4high,4low,4equip setup and duvolles. This patch was indead bad for the heavys since you either use what is available and run the sentinel that you don't want, or you do like me and don't upgrade the dropsuit and use the militia one to save your SP. Yeah... right now only the Amarr heavy frame model is complete. In Uprising we've started pushing all the suits more into specific race profiles, but of course when you're missing 75% of the other frame options you're bound to have some balance holes. The Caldari, Minmatar and Gallente heavy frames are coming, but not as soon as we'd all like. To that point though, how would you guys like us to approach that? Would you want Type-IIs and more sidegrade variants to tide you over until the other suits come online? (Even knowing that we'll probably retire them once the others arrive?) Thanks for the reply, I do think your idea would be a great fix, having all variation under Amarr for testing purpose until we get the different race in there. A respec would be needed when the time come you seperate them in clases though. At least this way we wouldn't fell left behind in our class. Now that's solved, lets talk HMG
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 57	Posted - 2013.05.09 17:32:00 - [7] - Quote Emi Love wrote: CCP Remnant wrote: martinofski wrote: I think with the current maps design, we should have received another race for the heavy, a shield, fast version for "running" around and turning at reasonnable speeds so we can track the guy running and jumping in minmatar logi using their 4high,4low,4equip setup and duvolles. This patch was indead bad for the heavys since you either use what is available and run the sentinel that you don't want, or you do like me and don't upgrade the dropsuit and use the militia one to save your SP. Yeah... right now only the Amarr heavy frame model is complete. In Uprising we've started pushing all the suits more into specific race profiles, but of course when you're missing 75% of the other frame options you're bound to have some balance holes. The Caldari, Minmatar and Gallente heavy frames are coming, but not as soon as we'd all like. To that point though, how would you guys like us to approach that? Would you want Type-IIs and more sidegrade variants to tide you over until the other suits come online? (Even knowing that we'll probably retire them once the others arrive?) I think that this would be a good idea, a few different variants as you stated it might be a while until the rest of the suits arrive My suggestion would be shield variant, (400-550 hp) Less armor - (around 200- 280 hp should be in line with the overall buff) 2 hi slots 1 low And the rest stand ard for heavys A heavy suit with dual light and heavy weapon slot Comes with equal armor and shield (300-400 each) Only 1 hi and low slots And the grenade slot However has lower cpu/pg overall as well, even after maxed circuitry and other cpu/pg enhancing skills (this is to help balance this suit so two proto weapons pretty much takes all of the cpu /pg for the suit, or can run a advance secondary weapon and fit a high/low mod) Not sure what else, but I think it would be a good idea to at least have some variety even if only for it gets taken away when the racial suits get here, in I'm assuming 6months - ish Also I didn't mention how to fix the hmg as enough ppl have giving you good/great advice already, Also thanks for engaging in the thread CCP Remnant I am pretty sure CCP know what will be the other variant though.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 57	Posted - 2013.05.09 18:00:00 - [8] - Quote Caineghis Beoulve wrote: We are forgetting the most important part here, is that the HMG is not fixed, we need the HMG to be able to perform our job, be it as a defender or as an attacker. We need the HMG restored to Chromosome stats, that was really balanced Would need to be rebalanced concidering all other weapon got changed. Wouldn't bet as balanced as it was if exactly as before. But, yes Let focus on HMG. Maybe we should pull some numbers to help the devs. I will look at some stuff tonight and see if I can post something. Testing with blue mate let say for distances.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 59	Posted - 2013.05.09 20:15:00 - [9] - Quote Just played a game where there was Radar from PFBHz and he killed my 1300hp heavy in 2 hitts, with nova knifes... not like i didn't see him coming. Not sure I can do close to that with my HMG lol
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 59	Posted - 2013.05.09 20:49:00 - [10] - Quote Caineghis Beoulve wrote: Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: Superhero Rawdon wrote: just to keep it bumped its disappointing to think that we've been suckered into this situation, to do a job we cant do anymore camp corners? never. i like the heavy class too much to give up on it, but man....... as the last heavy in my corp, i can honestly say that depression has set in (as far as gaming goes, lulz) well that's what Assault players cried for. "HEAVIES ARE A SUPPORT CLASS, AND TO DEFEND OBJECTIVES!!! QQ... THEY HAVE TOO MUCH RANGE...QQ" So here we are today camping corners Thankfully I had some SP left to get an assault suit going otherwise I won't be playing DUST at all. This ^ They QQ so much about heavies beign a defender or a support class, when the only way we have to get WP is to kil that means by no choice we are killers yep, because we are late at hacking objectives, can drop nanohives or revive people. just kill...camped in a corner indeed, that is the only way I did good kill today. Which could have benn done with any, but I mean any weapon...even the elbow (I tried it and it work as well when killing a guy from behind).

martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 60	Posted - 2013.05.09 21:43:00 - [11] - Quote We are not even at pub level now. Heavies were not at competitive level in the last patch. What else there is to be say about competitive. Put me in a place where I can deal in pub without getting laugh at and the we will check the competive part after...we don't even have Corp battle now anyway, so we can't try that. What would happen in a corp match as a heavy right now? Heavy would hide in a corner near a letter waiting for some dude to go hack without looking around, but it ain't gonna happen, since someone with a scanner will find him, 1 dude with a TAR duvolle or else will go and kill is 1800hp sentinel without any issue since he would be 20 meters away with 5 High and 4 low on is fast runing and strafing logi suit. filled with dmg amplifiers, shield, plate and repair nanohives. We don't even need to test it? What are your thought Sota? How would you see it?
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 63	Posted - 2013.05.10 00:09:00 - [12] - Quote Just did some efficiency testing with corp mates tonight. Here is the run down quickly: Edit, cant make the table to work... %eff. ................Boundless HMG ............. HMG................. TAC Duvolle ............... Duvolle.................Shotgun 110.........................N/A..........................N/A ........................up to 70m....................up to 47m.....................up to 5m 100..........................N/A...........................N/A..............................70m..............................47m...........................6m 95......................up to 30m..................up to 28m.........................?............................... ?..................................? 75..........................40m.............................33m...........................80m..............................54m.........................8m 50...........................43m...........................38m............................90m............................62m.........................12m 25............................51m...........................46m.............................98m............................70m........................15m 0..............................55m...........................50m............................100m...........................71m........................18m Big problem with the HMG (and shotgun) is that is as so much spread that you could multiply a % of missed shot which increase with distance to the %eff damage. So let say at 40m, you hit with your boudless about 40% of the shoots, and your %eff. is 75. It give you 30% of your DPS, so 30%of 513, which is 153 DPS. We have fired 33 bullets. 13 bullets have hit, with an average dmg per bullet of 4.63. We tested the TAR at 80m, and when aiming, you can even get a headshot bonus if the target isn't moving. 112%eff. with 2 burst of 2 shoots deal 320 dmg in about 1 sec, at 80M Just thought I would give some numbers since I don't enjoy playing the HMG at the moment
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 65	Posted - 2013.05.10 00:49:00 - [13] - Quote SoTa of PoP wrote: Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: Just thought I'll share a little experience with the Codewish Duvolle tact. All I can say is LOOOOOOOL This thing is WAY superior TO ANYTHING in this game. No wonder you see all the "good" players using it. It's EASYMODE, and let's wait for all the modded controllers to come out. This gun is gonna rule everything. Forget about the HMG guys. Lvl up AR's and get a Duvolle tact. on your heavy suit. So adapting in this sense means... changing weapons to what everyone else is using. Survival of the fittest indeed. I am stubborn, I don't want to play the Kitten AR. I am sure this is not a solution anyway....CCP want input from us, not us changing to AR when other guns are to broken.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 66	Posted - 2013.05.10 01:04:00 - [14] - Quote I hope CCP Remnant will read from where he left reading at the end of is day and analyse all our suggestion understand we dont want the be fat AR user, which is lame, but all would be really effective with a TAR(that would be area denial).
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 75	Posted - 2013.05.10 02:27:00 - [15] - Quote I wont even play in PC, leaving my place for a corp mates using a Tactical rifle for better results. Best game I made, I did 10 kill and 1 death. Camping a letter in a corner, waiting for the fools to come and hack, when they did, I would walk behind and put my gun right on the back of their head saying : fell those BB pellets you bastard! Edit: yay, first on page 30! lol
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 76	Posted - 2013.05.10 02:44:00 - [16] - Quote General Tiberius1 wrote: martinofski wrote: I wont even play in PC, leaving my place for a corp mates using a Tactical rifle for better results. Best game I made, I did 10 kill and 1 death. Camping a letter in a corner, waiting for the fools to come and hack, when they did, I would walk behind and put my gun right on the back of their head saying : fell those BB pellets you bastard! Edit: yay, first on page 30! lol did this just become another "last one to post wins" thread oh dear, we did it again Nah, I was just messing around. I can re-edit that no problem.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 92	Posted - 2013.05.13 18:51:00 - [17] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: Is it just me or does it seem like you have to have your target dead center of your reticule to get any hit detection now? I did some test for range a week ago and tested this too. I noticed that (when the enemy isn't moving at all), if you aim dead center, you will hit pretty good, even though you can notice some misses. If the center of the reticle is just outside of the target, but he is still completely inside the reticle. You get way less hit. about 20-30%, but I really can't say, since it was a corp mate. I would need to try it with FF to get better results, like recording fire duration until death. All due to our great dispersion of bullet. I thought this thread died, look like not . I am the only one thinking they haven't fix much? HMG got a 5% buff to dmg and 5% reduction to dispersion. Something else is wrong. I guess it's range....oh yeah, that is the first thing we pointed out...
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 92	Posted - 2013.05.13 18:52:00 - [18] - Quote MassiveNine wrote: Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: SoTa of PoP wrote: Doom mode is mostly un-usuable. CCP needs to buff turning speed asap. Yea i don't get its purpose...is it for aesthetics? i would just rather have increased zoom over some novelty thing from another game. Increasing turn speed would be nice since...well...we're using a CQQ weapon after all The irony of using a CQC weapon and not being able to track target in my effective range... I personally like the doom mode, if I have enough time to get into it before dying. I enjoyed it much more in the last build, the transition to ADS now is very clunky and pretty much makes it impossible to hit anything or even aim at anything for a full second, and by that time my shields are already gone. It pretty much completely disorients you while in transition. Now you actually doom yourself
martinofski Les Rebelles A Qc 170	Posted - 2013.06.06 18:17:00 - [19] - Quote I do agree with the too slow turning speed. We got to keep in mind that we only got the Amarr suit. Which is why we are stuck with this slow, armor based heavy suit. The bad thing is: it does have a way too slow turning speed when paired with the HMG CQC ranges. It's that combo which suck. The heavy class is bad from is lack of possibilities. I am sure we will get a faster minmatar/caldari suit to match with someone wish for a fast heavy. Turning speed might be different too here. They need to work the suits to give them purpose over their basic versions. Like the sentinel we got now, which should not be skilled into. For now, I can only deal with what I got, adapt to it, until they release other stuff so we can actually built compatible fittings. Like a Minmatar+HMG fitting, made to be the first to enter the fight, pushing the objectives in a tight/interior type map or outpost. While the Amarr hold position with is laser melting troops attacking the outpost he defend.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 191	Posted - 2013.06.12 18:17:00 - [20] - Quote ChromeBreaker wrote: When we balance weapons we balance them against EVERYTHING, other weapons, their effect, suits, vehicles... not just their purpose. A HMG's "purpose" is to liquidize whatever happens to be in front of it... thatGÇÖs not very balanced... however cool you might think it might be. Yep, agains't everything and including EVERY factor, like reload time, dropsuit speed, hitbox, detectability and so on. It isn't the case right now. HMG is about equal to the AR when in 1 vs 1 at the HMG optimal range. But when you consider the other factor, like range, accuracy, suit speed, strafing speed, equipment, hitbox and so on, not sure where the heavy has to upper hand except for the eHP factor. So basically, agains't people going head first without evading bullets, heavys are good, for people using tactics, not that much. I remember a few ambush where I kept fighting against Aldin Kan. First few games, he was a heavy with a boundless, he was doing ok, but I could still kill him in 50% of fight, (HMG vs HMG). Then he switched to the AR, doing crazy scores and out damaging me with is AR hipfiring+dmg mods+strafing like mad, I didn't killed him once then, even if I encountered if more than 10 times in various games. played about 8 ambush in a row, always against him. It's really hard to balance things out when you got 90% of the player playing AR, and 50% of them aren't good at all for various reason, like coming right out of the academy, while 5% play heavies and 4% are not too bad. If they compare the KDR, heavy will be good, AR bad.

martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 193	Posted - 2013.06.12 18:28:00 - [21] - Quote I am pretty sure the HMG is like it is because people compared raw DPS between AR and the HMG, complaint about it and then everything is like it is...SMG outdamaging a HMG. And it not only dispersion which need to be considered, it's also all the downsides from the suit which come to play, since we are forced to use it.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 193	Posted - 2013.06.12 18:37:00 - [22] - Quote By the way, I would love to see an excel stats regarding every weapons, qty of players, by SP categories. Not sure why CCP can't show their magic numbers.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 200	Posted - 2013.06.13 12:11:00 - [23] - Quote Novawolf McDustingham The514th wrote: Alldin Kan wrote: There's people still discussing something that no longer needs tweaks? Aldin, your opinion is invalid. In fact, it's never been valid. Never. Ever. Even more when you see him switch to a TAR assault from a proto heavy when things go bad.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 238	Posted - 2013.06.28 12:54:00 - [24] - Quote The more I play, the more I noticed that when the connection is good, my hit register pretty well in the optimal range, but in 30% of the games, I end up with really bad hit detection issues, where I hear the hit registering on the ennemy, but no damage is done. It happens that I see myself emptying the Boundless on someone at about 20m and get only is shield down, while in other games, ennemies drop quite faster. I am pretty sure it isn't just a player skill factor, it's probably a region factor...since it happen in one game but not the next. I am expecting some improvement regarding this when the 1.2 comes in with the hit detection fix. I am just thinking CCP nerfed the HMG in uprising from internal testing, where they don't have server lag that much and such. Same with the MD. when lag came in, those weapon act completely differently. We will see next week I guess.