Completely agree.

Completely agree. Though I'm not sold on a specific multiplier ...

One more graph
Google Doc: Strafe Speed Multipliers

Plots strafe speeds at multipliers 0.9x (present) through 0.6x (chromosome). Includes two "baselines" for point of reference. The upper baseline is current MN Assault strafe speed; the lower baseline is current MN Sentinel strafe speed. A few observations ...

* At a strafe multiplier of 0.85, tomorrow's MN Assault (4.51 m/s) would strafe at roughly the same speed as today's MN Logi (4.5 m/s).

* At a strafe multiplier of 0.8, tomorrow's MN Assault (4.24 m/s) would strafe at roughly the same speed as today's GA/CA Logi (4.23 m/s).

* At a strafe multiplier of 0.7, tomorrow's MN Assault (3.71 m/s) would strafe only slightly faster than today's MN Sentinel (3.65 m/s).

* If we implemented Chromosome's sprint multiplier of 0.6, tomorrow's MN Assault (3.18 m/s) would strafe at lower speed than today's AM Sentinel (3.29 m/s).

As a minmatar scout, and possibly that highest strafer in the game, I would gladly put my own strafe on the chopping block if it meant the end of the wiggle break-dance. Take it, end it, let the madness just stop.

One day if we get better hit detection, inertia, framerate, or any combination of those, maybe we can bring strafe speeds back up. Until then, nothing is worth buggering up hit detection.

So here's a data crunch I did in an attempt to answer Pokey's question about creating a unified "mobility" statistic that is a composite of the individual core speed statistics: Speed, sprint speed, strafe speed, stamina pool, and stamina regen. I applied a modification of the process that the National Research Council used to derive their rankings of PhD programs in the United States. It is detailed fairly thoroughly here: http://phds.org/about/ranges .

The short-and-sweet explanation is this:

Methods
(1) Data for each role+race combination in the game was collected in the categories of speed, sprint speed, strafe speed, stamina pool, and stamina regeneration

(2) The data was normalized so that the average value of each of the above 5 statistics across the different suits is 0, and its standard deviation is 1. http://www.inside-r.org/r-doc/base/scale . This scaling procedure allows data which may be measured in different units to be compared on a direct, numerical scale in a more appropriate way.

(3) 1000 simulated rankings were generated. To rank the suits, a weighting factor for each of the 5 suits was uniformly randomly selected. Essentially this step assigns importance to each of these categories randomly. Each suit gets a composite score which is the sum its statistics multiplied by the statistics' weighting factor. That is:

Composite = stat_1 * weight_1 + stat_2 * weight_2 + ... + stat_5 * weight_5

And then the suits are ranked with the suit ranked number 1 having the highest composite score (coughMINSCOUTcough)

(4) Since this process was repeated 1000 times, we get distributions of rankings that the suits received


Here are the results: https://i.imgur.com/CqsWYL6.png


Interpretation

Since the weights for each category are randomly selected rather than based on some sort of expert analysis of which speed category is most important, the results don't necessarily convey which suit the population at large would evaluate as the "most mobile". These results do give a good baseline around which to indicate what those numbers could look like, however. They also show off potential "rank bleed" in each suit class. The bigger the range of rankings that a suit receives, the less certain its ranking can really be evaluated to a single number in the hierarchy.

I don't want to bias interpretation too much further. What I will note is that stamina and stamina pool are perhaps "overweighted" insofar as I think that many people would not weight these stats as highly as a random weight would assign compared to the others. Additionally, it's notably just from the raw data that the MinMando + Min Sentinel break the stamina regen curve really drastically. Each of them have 40 stamina regen, with their closest neighbor in the heavy class at 20. To put it in perspective, the Amarr Scout also has 40 stamina regen.

This is definitely interesting, but I don't understand what is being hypothesized or proposed.

If we were to assume that there is direct (or causal) relationship between mobility and viability, how might we explain the MinScout's efficiency ranking? Would we not expect it to be at the top of the pile rather than the bottom?

Or am I thinking about this all wrong?

I could've told you the MinScout was highly mobile :-)

But what is your point? Are you proposing we should make it less so for the sake of normalization? It may be an outlier on your mobility scale but it isn't exactly topping performance charts in game. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Don't mean to detract; just trying to figure out the "why" behind this exercise ...

Operating on gut feel here, but -33% at 0.6x seems too steep and too sudden a drop to me, Cross. Isn't 0.5x the unnaturally sluggish backpedal speed in merc quarters?

If my understand is correct, this multiplier can be set via server-side hotfix. Even if we ultimately ended up with a very low multiplier, wouldn't it be better to iterate in that direction and monitor effects, rather than jump straight to what might be too much? Just to be safe?

Please note that I'm no friend of wiggle; I've complained about it as much as anyone. I'm simply concerned about potential over correction and unintended consequence.

---

Another thought. Wiggle isn't necessarily off or on. Let's assume a unit is presently able to dodge 80% of an incoming bullet stream by wiggling at 0.9x strafe. What percent would that same unit be able to dodge at 0.8x strafe? Still 80%? 40%? 20%? I don't think we can say with certainty. In my mind, this is a good reason to iterate and measure effect.

Pretty Graphs

You will jump higher when sprinting, lower when walking with a higher sprint modifier, lower speed

I am of course open, as always, to further discussion on the topic. o7

If strafing is dealt with then whats gonna happen to scouts, thats their most used way survive.

besides what? jumping and cloaking and using damps or generally being faster than everything else?

Not sure you understand: Its pretty much impossible (if you are using a rifle) to kill anything over 500 hp quick enough to prevent it from turning around and shooting back. Without strafing this means that scouts will lose frequently and automatically to anyone with ~400+ ehp depending on how good the scouts aim is and how fast the target's reaction is. Removing strafing is a nerf to any scout that isnt shotgunning/plasma cannoning, and scouts will need to be buffed to compensate.

The marksman scout will certainly lose much viability as a slayer. However if that viability came from exploiting hit detection issues, then it simply was never meant to be.

The best I can suggest is:

Fight at your optimal range, and outside your target's.
Focus on wounded targets.
Open fire on targets already engaged with others, from the flank.

The cloak, despite all of it's shortcomings, allows us to do one thing really well: Observe. Picking your battles is really important.

If despite all of that, scout success slumps, Rattati will notice it and will work to improve it. This is a blessing, because fear of having too much slayer capability is what holds the scout back. We may yet see better cloaks, improved ewar or other bastardry that will be more fun.

and I understand that they are absolutely not suited for direct combat. Stop complaining that scouts can't slay. Scouts have a role, it's your choice if you want to play outside of it

Scout success is slumping already due to the cloaking nerfs, its already well under what an assault or sentinel can get to, which is fine.

But removing strafing will nerf them even more.

They are supposed to be weak in direct combat, not helpless.
[...]

The marksman scout will certainly lose much viability as a slayer. However if that viability came from exploiting hit detection issues, then it simply was never meant to be.

The best I can suggest is:

Fight at your optimal range, and outside your target's.
Focus on wounded targets.
Open fire on targets already engaged with others, from the flank.

The cloak, despite all of it's shortcomings, allows us to do one thing really well: Observe. Picking your battles is really important.

If despite all of that, scout success slumps, Rattati will notice it and will work to improve it. This is a blessing, because fear of having too much slayer capability is what holds the scout back. We may yet see better cloaks, improved ewar or other bastardry that will be more fun.

You missed my point entirely.


Agreed.




The scout may or may not slump with strafe nerf. IF it does, though, you can be sure that Rattati will notice and take care of it.

I will gladly take quality-of-life buffs later on, in exchange for combat viability in the form of cheating hit-detection now.

Open your mind to the possibilities of what we could do with scouts if we don't have to worry about assaults migrating to them to slay.

You missed my point entirely.


Agreed.




The scout may or may not slump with strafe nerf. IF it does, though, you can be sure that Rattati will notice and take care of it.

I will gladly take quality-of-life buffs later on, in exchange for combat viability in the form of cheating hit-detection now.

Open your mind to the possibilities of what we could do with scouts if we don't have to worry about assaults migrating to them to slay.