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True Adamance wrote:

One Eyed King wrote:

Zatara Rought wrote:

This really needs to be reiterated.

One Eyed King wrote:

The current mechanics already have some area for Mediums to dampen.

If they have 1 Complex Dampener equipped, they can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts with no precision enhancers, and with 2 Complex Dampeners can beat both Amarr and Gallente scouts with no precision enhancers.

Assuming all scouts have 1 Complex PE, Medium frames can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts scans with 2 Complex Dampeners. They need 3 CDs to beat Gallente's 1 PE (though if tied scans/damps went to the dampened instead of the precision they would only need two). To beat Amarr with 1 Complex PE, they would need 4 Complex Damps.

It is not even remotely reasonable to demand that someone spend 4 low slots on complex modules to counter the effect of a single bonused module.
These are obscene module counts that you are suggesting to counter minor investments by scouts. 4 complex dampeners is utterly crippling to any medium frame - 1 precision enhancer is not. If an Amarr scout is required to throw on just one precision enhancer and then medframes are obligated to spend 4 modules to evade it, the medframes are not going to spend the modules to evade it. To suggest that they would is absurd. That Amarr scout can then comfortably out-tank any medframe stupid enough to try evading scout scans, while maintaining huge EWAR advantages and all the other wonders that scout suits confer.

Yet it IS reasonable for my Minmatar Scout to have to equip 3 Complex Damps AND not only a proto cloak, but to have it ACTIVE in order to beat a single slot on the Gal Logi?

In what way am I asking a medium frame, who by the way will have significantly greater HP than the suit that I am wearing, making more of a sacrifice than I am?

To be fair they are Low Slot modules and Minmatar are primary shield tankers for the most part.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4547	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:21:00 - [25291] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Spademan wrote: Well shit, we're actually getting somewhere with strafe speed. An age old question soon to be answered: Is it strafe speed or strafe acceleration that makes my wigglewiggle work? I like App's idea for a constant base. I'm not convinced it's acceleration. Not on Ds3 anyway, the best way to change direction is to "loop" back at the moment. (so say you're moving left, rather than flick the stick right, it's more effective to move down/up and around to the right side.) I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6001	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:22:00 - [25292] - Quote True Adamance wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: This really needs to be reiterated. One Eyed King wrote: The current mechanics already have some area for Mediums to dampen. If they have 1 Complex Dampener equipped, they can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts with no precision enhancers, and with 2 Complex Dampeners can beat both Amarr and Gallente scouts with no precision enhancers. Assuming all scouts have 1 Complex PE, Medium frames can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts scans with 2 Complex Dampeners. They need 3 CDs to beat Gallente's 1 PE (though if tied scans/damps went to the dampened instead of the precision they would only need two). To beat Amarr with 1 Complex PE, they would need 4 Complex Damps. It is not even remotely reasonable to demand that someone spend 4 low slots on complex modules to counter the effect of a single bonused module. These are obscene module counts that you are suggesting to counter minor investments by scouts. 4 complex dampeners is utterly crippling to any medium frame - 1 precision enhancer is not. If an Amarr scout is required to throw on just one precision enhancer and then medframes are obligated to spend 4 modules to evade it, the medframes are not going to spend the modules to evade it. To suggest that they would is absurd. That Amarr scout can then comfortably out-tank any medframe stupid enough to try evading scout scans, while maintaining huge EWAR advantages and all the other wonders that scout suits confer. Yet it IS reasonable for my Minmatar Scout to have to equip 3 Complex Damps AND not only a proto cloak, but to have it ACTIVE in order to beat a single slot on the Gal Logi? In what way am I asking a medium frame, who by the way will have significantly greater HP than the suit that I am wearing, making more of a sacrifice than I am? To be fair they are Low Slot modules and Minmatar are primary shield tankers for the most part. Yes, but I also have to fit other items. Increasingly I am moving to max dampened fits, and am completely sacrificing my High Slots on my standard suits, and only using maybe 1 Enhanced on my advanced (Complex are a waste of ISK and fitting capacity given how little I get in return for that payment). Dust is built around the idea of having to make sacrifices in order to fulfill a particular role. I cannot be all things at all times. If I want to really shield tank, I have to sacrifice my dampening, or weapons, or equipment. That is how it should be. We need to stop trying to balance around the false notion that because I can shield tank with one fit and max dampen with another that I can do both at the same time. It is simply not true. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6001	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:24:00 - [25293] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Spademan wrote: Well shit, we're actually getting somewhere with strafe speed. An age old question soon to be answered: Is it strafe speed or strafe acceleration that makes my wigglewiggle work? I like App's idea for a constant base, but it'd make catching targets tough for knifers. This is definitely another area that needs looked at. I hope that when they fix some of the real problems people will stop making other scout facets a scapegoat. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14843	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:28:00 - [25294] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Yes, but I also have to fit other items. Increasingly I am moving to max dampened fits, and am completely sacrificing my High Slots on my standard suits, and only using maybe 1 Enhanced on my advanced (Complex are a waste of ISK and fitting capacity given how little I get in return for that payment). Dust is built around the idea of having to make sacrifices in order to fulfill a particular role. I cannot be all things at all times. If I want to really shield tank, I have to sacrifice my dampening, or weapons, or equipment. That is how it should be. We need to stop trying to balance around the false notion that because I can shield tank with one fit and max dampen with another that I can do both at the same time. It is simply not true. Hell I wish I had half the fitting variety of a scout/dropsuit...... "The moment passed in thunder and calamitous intent and yet no order was given to retreat or give their ground"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6001	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:31:00 - [25295] - Quote True Adamance wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Yes, but I also have to fit other items. Increasingly I am moving to max dampened fits, and am completely sacrificing my High Slots on my standard suits, and only using maybe 1 Enhanced on my advanced (Complex are a waste of ISK and fitting capacity given how little I get in return for that payment). Dust is built around the idea of having to make sacrifices in order to fulfill a particular role. I cannot be all things at all times. If I want to really shield tank, I have to sacrifice my dampening, or weapons, or equipment. That is how it should be. We need to stop trying to balance around the false notion that because I can shield tank with one fit and max dampen with another that I can do both at the same time. It is simply not true. Hell I wish I had half the fitting variety of a scout/dropsuit...... How is it different on other suits? Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4547	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:39:00 - [25296] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: True Adamance wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Yes, but I also have to fit other items. Increasingly I am moving to max dampened fits, and am completely sacrificing my High Slots on my standard suits, and only using maybe 1 Enhanced on my advanced (Complex are a waste of ISK and fitting capacity given how little I get in return for that payment). Dust is built around the idea of having to make sacrifices in order to fulfill a particular role. I cannot be all things at all times. If I want to really shield tank, I have to sacrifice my dampening, or weapons, or equipment. That is how it should be. We need to stop trying to balance around the false notion that because I can shield tank with one fit and max dampen with another that I can do both at the same time. It is simply not true. Hell I wish I had half the fitting variety of a scout/dropsuit...... How is it different on other suits? He's talking about tanks and how diversity was slaughtered much like the Native Americans. (Protip: He's talking or referencing tanks like 70% of the time.) I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 469	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:44:00 - [25297] - Quote @OEK TA is Mr OG HAV
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6004	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:48:00 - [25298] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: @OEK TA is Mr OG HAV I know his tanking background. I thought we were talking apples and apples, not apples and oranges. I have respected many of his positions on vehicle balance. I just don't get how that can be compared to scout fittings with relation to other frames. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5495	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:57:00 - [25299] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @OEK TA is Mr OG HAV I know his tanking background. I thought we were talking apples and apples, not apples and oranges. I have respected many of his positions on vehicle balance. I just don't get how that can be compared to scout fittings with relation to other frames. Simply a comment on the lack of diversity in Vehicle modules True Brooding He's not wrong eitherGÇª But I would point out that many would like diversity in the Highslot options for Suits as well Incidentally Rattati has twice now mentioned (or is it trolled) about changes to Myro Jump height Strafe Speed I would be happy Now back to True Can we get this guy his HAV AlreadyGÇª I know Rattati looks hereGÇª Amarr HAV pleaseGÇª True has earned it. (Also I want to try to blow it up It's a Dust Goal of mine) MOAR Ladders
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4554	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:08:00 - [25300] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @OEK TA is Mr OG HAV I know his tanking background. I thought we were talking apples and apples, not apples and oranges. I have respected many of his positions on vehicle balance. I just don't get how that can be compared to scout fittings with relation to other frames. Simply a comment on the lack of diversity in Vehicle modules True Brooding He's not wrong eitherGÇª But I would point out that many would like diversity in the Highslot options for Suits as well Incidentally Rattati has twice now mentioned (or is it trolled) about changes to Myro Jump height Strafe Speed I would be happy Now back to True Can we get this guy his HAV AlreadyGÇª I know Rattati looks hereGÇª Amarr HAV pleaseGÇª True has earned it. (Also I want to try to blow it up It's a Dust Goal of mine) I'm holding out for an Amarr LAV too. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community

Cass Caul 1658	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:25:00 - [25301] - Quote True Adamance wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Yes, but I also have to fit other items. Increasingly I am moving to max dampened fits, and am completely sacrificing my High Slots on my standard suits, and only using maybe 1 Enhanced on my advanced (Complex are a waste of ISK and fitting capacity given how little I get in return for that payment). Dust is built around the idea of having to make sacrifices in order to fulfill a particular role. I cannot be all things at all times. If I want to really shield tank, I have to sacrifice my dampening, or weapons, or equipment. That is how it should be. We need to stop trying to balance around the false notion that because I can shield tank with one fit and max dampen with another that I can do both at the same time. It is simply not true. Hell I wish I had half the fitting variety of a scout/dropsuit...... Nope. Tanks are 1 true build. Well, 2, one for Madrugars and one for Gunnlogis But Assaults are where it's at. A lot of Scout's health comes from not being shoehorned into using a single weapon (well, for a primary weapon at least) One of my favorite lessons in high-school biology, with a wonderful teacher that cultivated my love for the subject, one of the best lectures was on generalist and specialist species. The generalist, the fine-rifle using Assault, can take their skills anywhere and thrive. Rats, Raccoon, pigeons- they're everywhere because they have the skills to survive in many environments. The specialists on the other hand can really only thrive in their dedicated environment. Move them out of it and either they can't compete for resources or they simply can't sustain themselves without a particular resource . But when a generalist and a specialist compete within the specialist's environment the generalist can't compete. That's basically where we are. Maps are huge. The fine-rifle users can travel about and they remain effective in all areas of a map. The Shotgun scouts are specialists. The suit is a specialized suit, the weapon is a specialized weapon. There are few scenarios in which the scout can outperform the assault. The problem is that we've forced the generalist into that specialized area by terrible map desgin and each and every time they change "minor" features on maps they protect those locations you need to be from outside, ranged attacks so, in all, suck a big fat one because this wouldn't be nearly as bad if snipers could still shoot consoles
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4557	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:25:00 - [25302] - Quote By the way, has anyone else taken the time translate Quil's new name? Clever, very clever. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6010	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:39:00 - [25303] - Quote Spademan wrote: By the way, has anyone else taken the time translate Quil's new name? Clever, very clever. Quil has increasingly had better ideas. Especially the last month or so. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8091	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:02:00 - [25304] - Quote Does anyone have copies of the old 1.8 Alpha-Charlie eWAR tables? Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 471	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:06:00 - [25305] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Does anyone have copies of the old 1.8 Alpha-Charlie eWAR tables? Checked downstairs. Haerr's old links are no good. Google Says: 404. ThatGÇÖs an error. The requested URL was not found on this server. ThatGÇÖs all we know.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8092	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:13:00 - [25306] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Does anyone have copies of the old 1.8 Alpha-Charlie eWAR tables? Checked downstairs. Haerr's old links are no good. Google Says: 404. ThatGÇÖs an error. The requested URL was not found on this server. ThatGÇÖs all we know. I know Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6011	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:15:00 - [25307] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Does anyone have copies of the old 1.8 Alpha-Charlie eWAR tables? Checked downstairs. Haerr's old links are no good. Google Says: 404. ThatGÇÖs an error. The requested URL was not found on this server. ThatGÇÖs all we know. I know I was hoping to reverse engineer from the Development Discussion Archive, but the Charlie sheet only shows what it was changed to and not what the values were changed from. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Cass Caul 1660	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:17:00 - [25308] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Does anyone have copies of the old 1.8 Alpha-Charlie eWAR tables? I have 1.8-O and 1.8-C It's basically the same as it is now, only Cal still had 15dB scans right? Yeah. Alpha was the same as 1.8-O only Cloaks went from 25% to 0%/5%/10%
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 471	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:25:00 - [25309] - Quote Found the old Polish Doc. Has the post-Alpha / pre-Charlie bonuses: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1on8VSuOb7b9lUmxwHX3sa07H1HOxw5End_168BZIezU/edit#gid=1147097877
Pseudogenesis Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 949	Posted - 2014.11.20 01:43:00 - [25310] - Quote Spademan wrote: Well shit, we're actually getting somewhere with strafe speed. Delicious. Does this mean my glass cannon minja is soon to be the fastest strafer in all the lands? I hope so. Minmatar scouts usually avoid the turmoil that is scout balancing but it seems like we've been getting the short end of the stick a lot recently. Also loving the murmurs of potential buffs to biotics. If myo stims end up giving increased jump height them I'm gonna dump them into all my high slots ASAP Stabby-stabber extraordinaire I stabbed Rattati once, you know.

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6014	Posted - 2014.11.20 02:55:00 - [25311] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: Spademan wrote: Well shit, we're actually getting somewhere with strafe speed. Delicious. Does this mean my glass cannon minja is soon to be the fastest strafer in all the lands? I hope so. Minmatar scouts usually avoid the turmoil that is scout balancing but it seems like we've been getting the short end of the stick a lot recently. Also loving the murmurs of potential buffs to biotics. If myo stims end up giving increased jump height them I'm gonna dump them into all my high slots ASAP How long have you been running Minmatar? We have almost ALWAYS gotten the short end of the stick... While not even being OP enough to merit it. I wonder if the Myo change will result in the old Mario Jumping I heard of. I won't complain, but people won't like it if I can knife them in the back, jump over top, and then knife them in the back again. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6014	Posted - 2014.11.20 02:57:00 - [25312] - Quote Also realized that they only way I can beat an A/1 suit with scans without having to wear a cloak was to go proto. No way that is happening. Sigh. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Bayeth Mal Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 1863	Posted - 2014.11.20 03:29:00 - [25313] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: So I wasn't paying attention: where is Mal? Does he have DA3 yet? Is it as good as BioWare claimed it was? Or is it another DUST or another Destiny? Have been away on work. Will be playing over the weekend. Will post update/review when I get a decent number of hours into it. We'll bang, OK?
Bayeth Mal Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 1863	Posted - 2014.11.20 03:38:00 - [25314] - Quote Also +1 for wanting Amarr vehicles. My vehicle alt is Amarr and I was planning on going all out Bitchy Amarr Loyalist because I assumed racial parity for vehicles was just around the corner... We'll bang, OK?
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2889	Posted - 2014.11.20 03:38:00 - [25315] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: This really needs to be reiterated. One Eyed King wrote: The current mechanics already have some area for Mediums to dampen. If they have 1 Complex Dampener equipped, they can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts with no precision enhancers, and with 2 Complex Dampeners can beat both Amarr and Gallente scouts with no precision enhancers. Assuming all scouts have 1 Complex PE, Medium frames can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts scans with 2 Complex Dampeners. They need 3 CDs to beat Gallente's 1 PE (though if tied scans/damps went to the dampened instead of the precision they would only need two). To beat Amarr with 1 Complex PE, they would need 4 Complex Damps. It is not even remotely reasonable to demand that someone spend 4 low slots on complex modules to counter the effect of a single bonused module. These are obscene module counts that you are suggesting to counter minor investments by scouts. 4 complex dampeners is utterly crippling to any medium frame - 1 precision enhancer is not. If an Amarr scout is required to throw on just one precision enhancer and then medframes are obligated to spend 4 modules to evade it, the medframes are not going to spend the modules to evade it. To suggest that they would is absurd. That Amarr scout can then comfortably out-tank any medframe stupid enough to try evading scout scans, while maintaining huge EWAR advantages and all the other wonders that scout suits confer. Yet it IS reasonable for my Minmatar Scout to have to equip 3 Complex Damps AND not only a proto cloak, but to have it ACTIVE in order to beat a single slot on the Gal Logi? In what way am I asking a medium frame, who by the way will have significantly greater HP than the suit that I am wearing, making more of a sacrifice than I am? This is a good point. Why should scouts have to make a larger sacrifice than mediums for the same gain for eWAR? I dont understand. "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
Droit du Seigneur OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 0	Posted - 2014.11.20 03:41:00 - [25316] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: Also +1 for wanting Amarr vehicles. My vehicle alt is Amarr and I was planning on going all out Bitchy Amarr Loyalist for her because I assumed racial parity for vehicles was just around the corner... sigh
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2889	Posted - 2014.11.20 03:48:00 - [25317] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Spademan wrote: Well shit, we're actually getting somewhere with strafe speed. An age old question soon to be answered: Is it strafe speed or strafe acceleration that makes my wigglewiggle work? I like App's idea for a constant base, but it'd make catching targets tough for knifers. Its acceleration. And its stupid. And this will just make heavy suits ridiculously OP, because they don't need HP mods... GODDAMNIT RATTATI HAVE SOME FORESIGHT.. ugh this is just so frustrating sometimes. Also, this hits Minmitar MORE than any other race. We survived on strafing and strafing alone, and needed every HP mod we could get. This is just....ugh.... Treating the symptoms instead of the problem, this time taking away the one thing scouts have going for them still: Speed. Well, looks like biotic tanking will no longer be viable "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5501	Posted - 2014.11.20 03:49:00 - [25318] - Quote Droit du Seigneur wrote: Bayeth Mal wrote: Also +1 for wanting Amarr vehicles. My vehicle alt is Amarr and I was planning on going all out Bitchy Amarr Loyalist for her because I assumed racial parity for vehicles was just around the corner... sigh le sigh =ƒÿï MOAR Ladders

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11812	Posted - 2014.11.20 04:32:00 - [25319] - Quote There is also another way, just a straight up nerf of Armor plates HP "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1665	Posted - 2014.11.20 04:45:00 - [25320] - Quote ^matchmaking in faction warfare when? It's practically Planetary conquest 2.0 where only 'established' 'elite' players get to play, and when they do they abuse mechanics for profit. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.



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