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One Eyed King wrote:

Zatara Rought wrote:

This really needs to be reiterated.

One Eyed King wrote:

The current mechanics already have some area for Mediums to dampen.

If they have 1 Complex Dampener equipped, they can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts with no precision enhancers, and with 2 Complex Dampeners can beat both Amarr and Gallente scouts with no precision enhancers.

Assuming all scouts have 1 Complex PE, Medium frames can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts scans with 2 Complex Dampeners. They need 3 CDs to beat Gallente's 1 PE (though if tied scans/damps went to the dampened instead of the precision they would only need two). To beat Amarr with 1 Complex PE, they would need 4 Complex Damps.

It is not even remotely reasonable to demand that someone spend 4 low slots on complex modules to counter the effect of a single bonused module.
These are obscene module counts that you are suggesting to counter minor investments by scouts. 4 complex dampeners is utterly crippling to any medium frame - 1 precision enhancer is not. If an Amarr scout is required to throw on just one precision enhancer and then medframes are obligated to spend 4 modules to evade it, the medframes are not going to spend the modules to evade it. To suggest that they would is absurd. That Amarr scout can then comfortably out-tank any medframe stupid enough to try evading scout scans, while maintaining huge EWAR advantages and all the other wonders that scout suits confer.

Yet it IS reasonable for my Minmatar Scout to have to equip 3 Complex Damps AND not only a proto cloak, but to have it ACTIVE in order to beat a single slot on the Gal Logi?

In what way am I asking a medium frame, who by the way will have significantly greater HP than the suit that I am wearing, making more of a sacrifice than I am?

"The moment passed in thunder and calamitous intent and yet no order was given to retreat or give their ground"

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4758	Posted - 2014.11.19 19:59:00 - [25261] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: TL;DR Man...just read it all. You got time to make spreadsheets and go back months ago in some cases to misquote me...you proly have enough time to actually read this. :P Best part of spreadsheets? Math is constant, transparent and trustworthy. It doesn't seek to revise history, tell convenient half truths or attempt to contort falsity into fact. Math has no ego and harbors no need for posturing, spin or politics. ya damn right...the spin machine from your end is working hard. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 437	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:16:00 - [25262] - Quote I like your confidence; waltzing in here to tell us "what really happened" in early Uprising Scout History as if we didn't live it firsthand. For examples of early non-tanking scouts, point to Radar and Lightning xVx. Drop these names to better peddle whatever it is you're peddling.
Cass Caul 1633	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:17:00 - [25263] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: PS: Marauder is the founding father of HP tanked scouts. He ran a tanky scout from 1.0 forward, long before tanking scouts became the norm. Roner migrated to scout much later and followed in Marauders footsteps. Mmm, pre-1.8 Scouting. Let's see, the original PC tag-team was Obi-Won Jackobi and DJINN Marauder. Maruader's original PC build was: HS: Damage Mod LW: Duvolle Specialist Shotgun SA: ??? EQ: ??? GS: ??? LS: 2x Enhanced Plates, Kincat, profile dampener IIRC When the armor plate buffs happened he switched to: HS: damage mod LW: CreoDron SA: ??? EQ: ??? GS: ??? LS: 2x Complex Plates, Kincat, profile dampener Latter, when 1.6 hit us with the supper aim assist was the cruicible that forced the Gal-Scout's hand HS: Damage Mod LW: CreoDron SA: TT-3 Assault Scrambler Pistol EQ: Wyirkomi Triage Nanohive GS: Core Locus LS: 3x Complex Plates profile dampener After that 5x SP event where we didn't have bonus SP gain from WPS I used the flux over the core which gave me the ability to fit the Viziam over the TT-3 Then we have "The Roner" This is what RonerGeneral used in PC HS: damage mod LW: Carthum Assault Scrambler Rifle SA:??? EQ:??? GS:??? LS: 4x Complex Damage Mods. Just a reminder of the progression of the top tier shotgun scout's On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 441	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:27:00 - [25264] - Quote Who else was big into tank before tank was cool pre-1.8? I know Appia ran a little, and I think Jolly was biotic-tank blend. Who am I missing?
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4773	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:29:00 - [25265] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: I like your confidence; waltzing in here to tell us "what really happened" in early Uprising Scout History as if we didn't live it firsthand. For examples of early non-tanking scouts, point to Radar and Lightning xVx. Drop these big names to better peddle whatever it is you're peddling. I just pointed you to them telling you what really happened. Rewrite their own words all you wish. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19188	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:40:00 - [25266] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Then we have "The Roner" This is what RonerGeneral used in PC HS: damage mod LW: Carthum Assault Scrambler Rifle SA:??? EQ:??? GS:??? LS: 4x Complex Damage Mods. Just a reminder of the progression of the top tier shotgun scout's wut 5 damage mods, including 4 ones in low slots? What sorcery is this? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 447	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:46:00 - [25267] - Quote Marauder HP tanked. You found a post to the contrary, and now you're here to tell us that Marauder didn't HP tank. Whether or not it fits your narrative, Marauder HP tanked. Are you here to pitch us on a new history, or is there a specific agenda item we can help you with?
Cass Caul 1637	Posted - 2014.11.19 20:46:00 - [25268] - Quote Here is Roner General, sporting the marauder fit I was talking about: https://zkillboard.com/kill/37711737/ Here he is again in the marauder fit: https://zkillboard.com/kill/37708732/ The one Zatara posted: https://zkillboard.com/kill/36727338/ And another tank fit: https://zkillboard.com/kill/36700711/ The thing about zkillboards is that it records all of those OB drops. Roner is also on there witha Republic Logistics mk.0. Catching him in that suit once did not mean that was his usual fit. That was probably him thinking he could get under Focused with just 2 damps It seems the last time Roner actually used the 4x plate fit was in January, https://zkillboard.com/kill/35808137/ On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4802	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:01:00 - [25269] - Quote The 4x plate fit was not a shotgun fit but yeah....so instead of "all they ran was plates and kin cats. they didn't even bother with damps" the picture for roner at least is: no he did not seem to be running kin cats. yes he seems to have run dampeners. yes roner seems to have plate stacked. seem about right? Marauder we have his own words. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5487	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:04:00 - [25270] - Quote Can someone let me know when the pissing contest is done MOAR Ladders

Llast 326 An Arkhos 5487	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:08:00 - [25271] - Quote In other news CCP Rattati wrote: Caldari scout OPness, might someone say Rattati used OPness in a statement MOAR Ladders
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 450	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:11:00 - [25272] - Quote Optimal fits change with each build. What Marauder ran one month, he may not have run the next. His "theme" however remained constant. Some shotgunners favored HP; others favored biotics. Marauder always favored HP. Anyhow, what do you stand to gain by rewriting Marauder's history?
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4805	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:20:00 - [25273] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Can someone let me know when the pissing contest is done Yeah. I've had about enough. Like i said..i'll be back when I get misquoted more...hope all has been well in here since the IWS misunderstanding. o7 B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
hfderrtgvcd 1204	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:22:00 - [25274] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Llast 326 wrote: Can someone let me know when the pissing contest is done Scouts should be removed from the game. o7 You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4806	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:41:00 - [25275] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: Scouts should be removed from the game. o7 HA! B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4541	Posted - 2014.11.19 21:47:00 - [25276] - Quote The arrogance level in the past few pages, it's...it's over 9000! I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19191	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:06:00 - [25277] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Llast 326 wrote: Can someone let me know when the pissing contest is done Scouts should be removed from the game and all scout players banned permanently. o7 Stop misquoting him. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14831	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:13:00 - [25278] - Quote Spademan wrote: The arrogance level in the past few pages, it's...it's over 9000! Shocking am I right? I only stayed around for that one post about RE/ Proxies doing more damage due to band width limitations to see what scouts thought..... They'll be super pissed if Rattati looks into Pokey Dravon's HAV rebalance suggestions. "The moment passed in thunder and calamitous intent and yet no order was given to retreat or give their ground"
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8084	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:16:00 - [25279] - Quote And stuff like this is why I am ashamed at times to say that I frequent this thread. You know how many people tell me "The Barbershop thread is cancer"? And it's because of things like this. The only thing I can tell them in reply is "Hey, the thread is an excellent source of eWAR data." Stop arguing over the little things and misquoting for giggles. Instead, try to WORK with the CPMS to get what you want. Don't sugarcoat anything, but at the same time, be able to step back and say "Yes, that part of x is overpowered and needs to be changed for balances sake". FFS I hate saying it, but scouts are OP as hell. There is a reason why they are spammed in PC, and that's because they are one of the most effective slaying suits in the game. THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE If the answer is our ability to have massive eWAR superiority gives us a completely unfair advantage then THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE. Work with them instead of against if you want to see a scout that still has a recon role and is effective. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 451	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:18:00 - [25280] - Quote Spademan wrote: The arrogance level in the past few pages, it's...it's over 9000! Apologies, guys. All attack and no tact here. I'll work on my British for next time :-) On the topic, now reading A Spy Among Friends, Kim Philby and the Great Betrayal by Ben Macintyre. Would very much recommend.

Cass Caul 1644	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:31:00 - [25281] - Quote So I wasn't paying attention: where is Mal? Does he have DA3 yet? Is it as good as BioWare claimed it was? Or is it another DUST or another Destiny?
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4546	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:34:00 - [25282] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Spademan wrote: The arrogance level in the past few pages, it's...it's over 9000! Apologies, guys. All attack and no tact here. I'll work on my British for next time :-) On the topic, now reading A Spy Among Friends, Kim Philby and the Great Betrayal by Ben Macintyre. Would very much recommend. It's cool, the passion is showing. Just remember, everyone can and will be biased. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5995	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:43:00 - [25283] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: This really needs to be reiterated. One Eyed King wrote: The current mechanics already have some area for Mediums to dampen. If they have 1 Complex Dampener equipped, they can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts with no precision enhancers, and with 2 Complex Dampeners can beat both Amarr and Gallente scouts with no precision enhancers. Assuming all scouts have 1 Complex PE, Medium frames can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts scans with 2 Complex Dampeners. They need 3 CDs to beat Gallente's 1 PE (though if tied scans/damps went to the dampened instead of the precision they would only need two). To beat Amarr with 1 Complex PE, they would need 4 Complex Damps. It is not even remotely reasonable to demand that someone spend 4 low slots on complex modules to counter the effect of a single bonused module. These are obscene module counts that you are suggesting to counter minor investments by scouts. 4 complex dampeners is utterly crippling to any medium frame - 1 precision enhancer is not. If an Amarr scout is required to throw on just one precision enhancer and then medframes are obligated to spend 4 modules to evade it, the medframes are not going to spend the modules to evade it. To suggest that they would is absurd. That Amarr scout can then comfortably out-tank any medframe stupid enough to try evading scout scans, while maintaining huge EWAR advantages and all the other wonders that scout suits confer. Yet it IS reasonable for my Minmatar Scout to have to equip 3 Complex Damps AND not only a proto cloak, but to have it ACTIVE in order to beat a single slot on the Gal Logi? In what way am I asking a medium frame, who by the way will have significantly greater HP than the suit that I am wearing, making more of a sacrifice than I am? Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Cass Caul 1647	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:53:00 - [25284] - Quote Don't forget, Rex, that the Focused Scanner has a really, really hefty fitting cost. I mean, it costs less to fit in both PG and CPU than the Ishukone Cloak even after the lvl 5 scout bonus, but it still costs a lot!
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19193	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:56:00 - [25285] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Yet it IS reasonable for my Minmatar Scout to have to equip 3 Complex Damps AND not only a proto cloak, but to have it ACTIVE in order to beat a single slot on the Gal Logi? This 'single slot' is hardly as much of a threat as a passive scanner given that it has a tiny scan angle with a massive cooldown on it. If you get scanned by a focused scanner, all you need to do is back off for a couple of seconds before you can go on your merry, invisible way. You shouldn't get scanned unless you did something wrong though, because even if a Gallogi is using four of them at once they won't be able to cover all angles and they won't be able to do anything like permascanning 360 degrees like scout EWAR can do. The threat of Gallogi scanners is hugely overrated. It's especially cute of you to go 'Oh no, I have to have my cloak active' when comparing it to something with a tiny uptime and a huge downtime. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6000	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:00:00 - [25286] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: If the answer is our ability to have massive eWAR superiority gives us a completely unfair advantage then THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE. The question is not whether or not it needs to be changed, but HOW it needs to be changed. Zatara's point of view, from my perspective so I am not accused of misquoting, is that EWAR is THE reason scouts are so OP, and that in order to create more balance the game needs to take away the Range and Precision aspects of scouts and give them to Medium frames. My contention is that the sacrifice needed to get that superiority is so great (in most, but notably not all cases) is enough that it offsets the EWAR skills. I think Rattati, the guy with the data, is correct in believing that moving bonuses to module efficacy will make a significant shift toward removing the notable exceptions with regard to sacrifice. I believe this needs to happen first, because it is a reasonable, marginal adjustment, before we start getting crazy with complete removal of scout bonuses. All the other scouts, particularly the Minmatar (you remember your Identity Crisis between Alpha and Charlie Ghost?) keep getting the shaft from the nerfs while they are NOT solving the problem. We spent from 1.0 to 1.8 in utter irrelavance, and I will be damned if I let someone's perspective that scouts are OP, and therefore must be nerfed (particularly when I believe those nerfs will result in most scouts being back to pre 1.8 effectiveness). I am even more concerned when that person happens to have a CPM tag. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 458	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:04:00 - [25287] - Quote On the topic, would support buffs to proto focused scanner (for reasons above) as well as proto proximity. Proto flux, on the other hand, is a bit too good.
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4547	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:11:00 - [25288] - Quote Well shit, we're actually getting somewhere with strafe speed. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14843	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:14:00 - [25289] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: This really needs to be reiterated. One Eyed King wrote: The current mechanics already have some area for Mediums to dampen. If they have 1 Complex Dampener equipped, they can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts with no precision enhancers, and with 2 Complex Dampeners can beat both Amarr and Gallente scouts with no precision enhancers. Assuming all scouts have 1 Complex PE, Medium frames can beat Minmatar and Caldari scouts scans with 2 Complex Dampeners. They need 3 CDs to beat Gallente's 1 PE (though if tied scans/damps went to the dampened instead of the precision they would only need two). To beat Amarr with 1 Complex PE, they would need 4 Complex Damps. It is not even remotely reasonable to demand that someone spend 4 low slots on complex modules to counter the effect of a single bonused module. These are obscene module counts that you are suggesting to counter minor investments by scouts. 4 complex dampeners is utterly crippling to any medium frame - 1 precision enhancer is not. If an Amarr scout is required to throw on just one precision enhancer and then medframes are obligated to spend 4 modules to evade it, the medframes are not going to spend the modules to evade it. To suggest that they would is absurd. That Amarr scout can then comfortably out-tank any medframe stupid enough to try evading scout scans, while maintaining huge EWAR advantages and all the other wonders that scout suits confer. Yet it IS reasonable for my Minmatar Scout to have to equip 3 Complex Damps AND not only a proto cloak, but to have it ACTIVE in order to beat a single slot on the Gal Logi? In what way am I asking a medium frame, who by the way will have significantly greater HP than the suit that I am wearing, making more of a sacrifice than I am? To be fair they are Low Slot modules and Minmatar are primary shield tankers for the most part. "The moment passed in thunder and calamitous intent and yet no order was given to retreat or give their ground"
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 458	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:17:00 - [25290] - Quote Spademan wrote: Well shit, we're actually getting somewhere with strafe speed. An age old question soon to be answered: Is it strafe speed or strafe acceleration that makes my wigglewiggle work? I like App's idea for a constant base.



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