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Varoth Drac wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

As HP Modules become more valuable, the performance gap between high-slot-count MedFrames and other frames will widen. The response will more likely be "moar HP creep" than "nerf MedFrames" or "nerf HP modules". This is the nature of HP Creep, and it has been observed time and time again since Chromosome. The "slower TTK better" argument wins without fail, even as it widens the imbalance between those who tank HP modules and those who do not.

When it comes time to get the Scout back up-to-speed with higher HP frames, we'll have painted ourselves into a corner. How can we buff them?

* Give Scouts more Speed - Off the Speed/HP Curve.
* Give Scouts more HP - Off the Speed/HP Curve.
* Give Scouts another Slot - Off the Speed/HP Curve.
* Give Scouts wild-and-crazy Regen - Slayers migrate to the Scout and tank it out w/ HP modules.
* Buff Scan Modules - Scanner Logis benefit by greater degree; performance gap unaffected.

The only options available are buffing native Scout EWAR or buffing lolCloak. Scout EWAR was "de-escalated" to make room for meaningful EWAR participation by Medframes; are we ready to admit that this was a mistake? If not, we buff lolCloak and hope for the best.

I don't place much faith in the purple. Do you?

I wouldn't get carried away with saying hp mods are getting buffed. OK, maybe they are a little, but it's not all that much. The commando slot count is not going to disproportionately hinder them like you say.
If this is an increase in TTK, it is only minor. I agree that all the "CPM agree TTK needs to be longer" talk is silly and short sighted. But it's not as simple has "long TTK is good for high hp, short for low hp". It's all about a balance. A balance that we are at quite nicely. I wouldn't want it to be toppled either way.
TTK is a complex issue, and I'd feel safer if people stayed out of it and left it alone. This update won't change it much in this regard.

But yes, somehow we've got an update that buffs everyone except for the Caldari Sentinel and scouts (unless you count the kincat PG reduction, which I guess is nice, for assaults as well though).

I don't discount the purple just yet. It can be saved!

Also, there would possibly be more room in the balance for the maybe minor-scout-buff side effect of my EWAR balancing thoughts. Which I may make a topic about in Feedback, since I think it was mentioned that EWAR was an upcoming area of consideration.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Dreis ShadowWeaver Abstract Requiem 7	Posted - 2015.09.25 20:22:00 - [46951] - Quote I wanna make a character that specialises in grenades and quickscoping. Creator of the Nova Knifers United channel Dreis' Minja Blog CEO of Abstract Requiem
Arkena Wyrnspire Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 27	Posted - 2015.09.25 20:33:00 - [46952] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Laugh if you'd like, but I'd prefer you tell me why and how my prediction is wrong. I don't think you can. I'd argue this point, but we're both sufficiently entrenched in our opinions that it'd be pointless. "Scoutpocalypse" is overexaggerating. That said, they're not exactly going to be top tier. Quote: * Give Scouts more Speed - Off the Speed/HP Curve. I'd support this except really high speeds break things. Quote: * Give Scouts more HP - Off the Speed/HP Curve. I actually do support this one. Half of the "he turned round and splatted me when I was about to shotgun him" comes from having tiny amounts of HP. Quote: * Give Scouts another Slot - Off the Speed/HP Curve. * Give Scouts wild-and-crazy Regen - Slayers migrate to the Scout and tank it out w/ HP modules. I don't think a slot would solve that much, honestly. You've vetoed your own suggestion with the regen, so I'll leave that one. Quote: The only options available are buffing native Scout EWAR or buffing lolCloak. Scout EWAR was "de-escalated" to make room for participation by other frames; are we ready to admit that this was a mistake? If not, we buff lolCloak and hope for the best. I do not place much faith in the purple. Do you? "The only options available are this or this" u wot m8 we just discussed others The cloak is ridiculously bad to the point where I frequently don't bother fitting it. Buffing it would not necessarily bring us back to 1.8, I see no reason why it shouldn't be buffed. Scout EWAR is a whole kettle of fish that nobody is going to be happy with ever, tbh. Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.25 20:44:00 - [46953] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: "Scoutpocalypse" is overexaggerating. I think he was saying they would be over-buffed eventually. Not sure if you got that. Seems like Apidem was in full tin-foil mode . Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The cloak is ridiculously bad to the point where I frequently don't bother fitting it. Buffing it would not necessarily bring us back to 1.8, I see no reason why it shouldn't be buffed. I agree (though I think "ridiculously" is maybe going a bit far). Rattati has even mentioned a desire to buff it not that long ago. I hope he still feels this way, and it happens in the not too distant future. Even just a (sizeable) reduction to the decloak delay would make life better, and not make the cloak feel clunky and restrictive. Scout's aren't particularly strong at the moment. Buffing (almost) everyone except for scouts will result in them being (more) underpowered.
Arkena Wyrnspire Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 27	Posted - 2015.09.25 20:49:00 - [46954] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The cloak is ridiculously bad to the point where I frequently don't bother fitting it. Buffing it would not necessarily bring us back to 1.8, I see no reason why it shouldn't be buffed. I agree (though I think "ridiculously" is maybe going a bit far). Rattati has even mentioned a desire to buff it not that long ago. I hope he still feels this way, and it happens in the not too distant future. TBF as an experienced player I can easily spot them so I'm likely to be more disparaging of their capabilities, but I really don't think they're much good at all. Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 18	Posted - 2015.09.25 20:49:00 - [46955] - Quote The "decloak" delay implementation is laughable and clunky. You should not take 5 seconds to bring out your shotgun just because you had your cloak out, turned on or not. The decloak delay should only apply when you actually decloak, not when you just hold your arm up. Ripley Riley: > Post Hotfix Foxour Gallente Assault: > DakkadakkadakkadakkaFREEDOMdakkadakka
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:05:00 - [46956] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: As HP Modules become more valuable, the performance gap between high-slot-count MedFrames and other frames will widen. The response will more likely be "moar HP creep" than "nerf MedFrames" or "nerf HP modules". This is the nature of HP Creep, and it has been observed time and time again since Chromosome. The "slower TTK better" argument wins without fail, even as it widens the imbalance between those who tank HP modules and those who do not. When it comes time to get the Scout back up-to-speed with higher HP frames, we'll have painted ourselves into a corner. How can we buff them? * Give Scouts more Speed - Off the Speed/HP Curve. * Give Scouts more HP - Off the Speed/HP Curve. * Give Scouts another Slot - Off the Speed/HP Curve. * Give Scouts wild-and-crazy Regen - Slayers migrate to the Scout and tank it out w/ HP modules. * Buff Scan Modules - Scanner Logis benefit by greater degree; performance gap unaffected. The only options available are buffing native Scout EWAR or buffing lolCloak. Scout EWAR was "de-escalated" to make room for meaningful EWAR participation by Medframes; are we ready to admit that this was a mistake? If not, we buff lolCloak and hope for the best. I don't place much faith in the purple. Do you? I wouldn't get carried away with saying hp mods are getting buffed. OK, maybe they are a little, but it's not all that much. The commando slot count is not going to disproportionately hinder them like you say. If this is an increase in TTK, it is only minor. I agree that all the "CPM agree TTK needs to be longer" talk is silly and short sighted. But it's not as simple has "long TTK is good for high hp, short for low hp". It's all about a balance. A balance that we are at quite nicely. I wouldn't want it to be toppled either way. TTK is a complex issue, and I'd feel safer if people stayed out of it and left it alone. This update won't change it much in this regard. But yes, somehow we've got an update that buffs everyone except for the Caldari Sentinel and scouts (unless you count the kincat PG reduction, which I guess is nice, for assaults as well though). I don't discount the purple just yet. It can be saved! Also, there would possibly be more room in the balance for the maybe minor-scout-buff side effect of my EWAR balancing thoughts. Which I may make a topic about in Feedback, since I think it was mentioned that EWAR was an upcoming area of consideration.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:06:00 - [46957] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: embedded quotes By "off the speed/HP curve" I mean that giving Scouts more hitpoints, more speed or another slot will place them off the Speed-HP curve. I don't think it likely that Rattati will diverge from his own design; if he did, I don't think it unreasonable to anticipate a return of the high-hitpoint Assault Lite. These may not outperform Assaults, but they'd likely outperform Scouts who opted to run Biotics or EWAR instead of HP Modules. I think this path is less likely to be taken than alternative paths, but I agree that a Scoutocolypse would be unlikely should this path be chosen. Next path is EWAR Buffs. Probably our best bet at narrowing the performance gap, though things could go catastrophically wrong if they over did it. If the Devs waited long enough and Scout performance/usage were low enough, they very well might over do it. The only other path I can think of is Cloak Buffs, and I'm thinking this one's either going to be too much or not enough. Rolling back cloakblind and/or reducing delays would be more quality-of-life improvements than huge performance boosters. Turning off shimmer = Scoutocolypse. Large Active Damp Bonus = Scoutocolypse. My point is that the wider the performance gap gets between low-HP scouts and other frames, the larger the buff will be needed to bridge that gap. With big buffs come big risks.
noob cavman Nos Nothi 3	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:10:00 - [46958] - Quote Bah we are just hard mode again. I have my carth back so all is well in the world. The most abusive northerner. currently reading clockwork vampires by andy remic. A terra bad/awesome author
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:14:00 - [46959] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: As HP Modules become more valuable, the performance gap between high-slot-count MedFrames and other frames will widen. The response will more likely be "moar HP creep" than "nerf MedFrames" or "nerf HP modules". This is the nature of HP Creep, and it has been observed time and time again since Chromosome. The "slower TTK better" argument wins without fail, even as it widens the imbalance between those who tank HP modules and those who do not. When it comes time to get the Scout back up-to-speed with higher HP frames, we'll have painted ourselves into a corner. How can we buff them? * Give Scouts more Speed - Off the Speed/HP Curve. * Give Scouts more HP - Off the Speed/HP Curve. * Give Scouts another Slot - Off the Speed/HP Curve. * Give Scouts wild-and-crazy Regen - Slayers migrate to the Scout and tank it out w/ HP modules. * Buff Scan Modules - Scanner Logis benefit by greater degree; performance gap unaffected. The only options available are buffing native Scout EWAR or buffing lolCloak. Scout EWAR was "de-escalated" to make room for meaningful EWAR participation by Medframes; are we ready to admit that this was a mistake? If not, we buff lolCloak and hope for the best. I don't place much faith in the purple. Do you? I wouldn't get carried away with saying hp mods are getting buffed. OK, maybe they are a little, but it's not all that much. The commando slot count is not going to disproportionately hinder them like you say. If this is an increase in TTK, it is only minor. I agree that all the "CPM agree TTK needs to be longer" talk is silly and short sighted. But it's not as simple has "long TTK is good for high hp, short for low hp". It's all about a balance. A balance that we are at quite nicely. I wouldn't want it to be toppled either way. TTK is a complex issue, and I'd feel safer if people stayed out of it and left it alone. This update won't change it much in this regard. But yes, somehow we've got an update that buffs everyone except for the Caldari Sentinel and scouts (unless you count the kincat PG reduction, which I guess is nice, for assaults as well though). I don't discount the purple just yet. It can be saved! Also, there would possibly be more room in the balance for the maybe minor-scout-buff side effect of my EWAR balancing thoughts. Which I may make a topic about in Feedback, since I think it was mentioned that EWAR was an upcoming area of consideration. Speaking more to long-term than foxfour in the post above. My takeaway from the CPM "feedback" threads was that tweaking base shield stats was the first step in a multi-step process. Next up, if I understood correctly, are buffs to Shield Modules themselves.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:18:00 - [46960] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: embedded quotes Next path is EWAR Buffs. Probably our best bet at narrowing the performance gap, though things could go catastrophically wrong if they over did it. If the Devs waited long enough and Scout performance/usage were low enough, they very well might over do it. I feel, the way the game is at the moment, if the Devs just said "scouts are stealth suits, you can't scan them" and all scouts were all given a blanket immunity to all scans, no profile damps needed, they'd still be balanced. I don't even think people would notice much difference in game. I'm not actually suggesting this be done, and there would be major riots. It's just an interesting thought. Improving passive scanning on scouts would be more likely to make them OP again than improving dampening. There's room for some manoeuvre when it comes to EWAR, but I agree that fixing cloaks is probably the safer, and more needed option.

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:20:00 - [46961] - Quote noob cavman wrote: Bah we are just hard mode again. I have my carth back so all is well in the world. That's the attitude I like to see! (still buff cloaks though..) edit: DPLAK
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:27:00 - [46962] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Speaking more to long-term than foxfour in the post above. My takeaway from the CPM "feedback" threads was that tweaking base shield stats was the first step in a multi-step process. Next up, if I understood correctly, are buffs to Shield Modules themselves. This is true. I thought you meant from this hotfix. I'm hoping we are looking at simply some minor variety improvements to shields, and possibly some extra regen mod help if Foxfour leaves shield tanking still languishing. I hope we won't be looking at more general tanking meta buffs. Though the TTK comments from CPM are worrying. I doubt it will be enough to disadvantage commandos. I think extrapolating all this into another scoutapocolypse is getting a bit paranoid though. ... TPLAK!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:42:00 - [46963] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I think extrapolating all this into another scoutapocolypse is getting a bit paranoid though. GalAssaults + ARs aren't any more underpowered than Scouts. Yet a 25% RoF buff? Overcorrection is not uncommon. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps another Scoutocolypse is unlikely, but still the possibility provides food for thought. Chasing lower TTK will widen the performance gap between low-hp and high-hp play; the wider that gap gets, the greater the risk of overcorrection down the road.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:44:00 - [46964] - Quote noob cavman wrote: Bah we are just hard mode again. I have my carth back so all is well in the world.
Arkena Wyrnspire Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 27	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:54:00 - [46965] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: I think extrapolating all this into another scoutapocolypse is getting a bit paranoid though. GalAssaults + ARs aren't any more underpowered than Scouts. Yet a 25% RoF buff? Where? Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:57:00 - [46966] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: I think extrapolating all this into another scoutapocolypse is getting a bit paranoid though. GalAssaults + ARs aren't any more underpowered than Scouts. Yet a 25% RoF buff? Where? Was that not the first number they proposed with FoxFour? Are we down to 15% now? Overcorrection averted? Overcorrection is not unheard of.
VAHZZ RabbitGang 9	Posted - 2015.09.25 22:04:00 - [46967] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: I think extrapolating all this into another scoutapocolypse is getting a bit paranoid though. GalAssaults + ARs aren't any more underpowered than Scouts. Yet a 25% RoF buff? Where? Was that not the first number they proposed with FoxFour? Are we down to 15% now? Overcorrection averted? Overcorrection is not unheard of. Ratman confirmed 15% ROF bonus. 3% per level. Co-Founder of RabbitGang "VAHZZ is Forum Jesus" - GJR OG Scout Sniper.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.25 22:16:00 - [46968] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Edit: I doubt seriously that Scout underperformance will raise many (if any) eyebrows on CPM2. Talking specifically about how the problem might be fixed down the road -- with emphasis on the increasing possibility of overcorrection -- might be enough to get their attention. Everyone hated the Scoutocolypse enough to understand that they don't want a repeat. I think it's best not to overcomplicate things. I'm not saying you are wrong. Just that claiming that scout - medium imbalance is going to get so bad, that down the road scouts are going to get massively overbuffed, and everyone will rue the day, is probably not going to win you any favours from the CPM, or many others.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.25 22:39:00 - [46969] - Quote VAHZZ wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: I think extrapolating all this into another scoutapocolypse is getting a bit paranoid though. GalAssaults + ARs aren't any more underpowered than Scouts. Yet a 25% RoF buff? Where? Was that not the first number they proposed with FoxFour? Are we down to 15% now? Overcorrection averted? Overcorrection is not unheard of. Ratman confirmed 15% ROF bonus. 3% per level. Down from 25% and quite possibly still too much. I think we can all agree that while the GA Assault + AR is not the best loadout on the field, it is far from the worst. If overcorrection is possible in this case, how much more possible would it be when working with truly a underpowered unit? * Not to say I'm opposed to the GA Assault RoF bonus. I've long supported this one (example). My point is that it'd be unwise to rule out the possibility of overcorrection. While "Scoutocolypse is going to happen" is an unsound and unreasonable assertion, "Scoutocolypse is not going to happen" is an equally unsound and unreasonable assertion. I stand by my point that the worse things get for Scouts, the higher the odds of overcorrection will be when it comes time to fix them.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.25 22:42:00 - [46970] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Edit: I doubt seriously that Scout underperformance will raise many (if any) eyebrows on CPM2. Talking specifically about how the problem might be fixed down the road -- with emphasis on the increasing possibility of overcorrection -- might be enough to get their attention. Everyone hated the Scoutocolypse enough to understand that they don't want a repeat. I think it's best not to overcomplicate things. I'm not saying you are wrong. Just that claiming that scout - medium imbalance is going to get so bad, that down the road scouts are going to get massively overbuffed, and everyone will rue the day, is probably not going to win you any favours from the CPM, or many others. Point taken.

Radiant Pancake3 1	Posted - 2015.09.25 22:44:00 - [46971] - Quote ... Was just about to break 4k wp for the first time as a scout then I get fatal errored... I love you too dust... Learned the ways of N4g from Alcina's mom. Min Loyalist.
Fristname Family name Opus Arcana 651	Posted - 2015.09.25 22:45:00 - [46972] - Quote I still got it.... carrying games of dom where half my team leaves and we have no chance isnt too hard. but when your running a fit i made, you know you got the skills to pay the bills <3 BUILD MORE FARMS!
Fristname Family name Opus Arcana 651	Posted - 2015.09.25 22:49:00 - [46973] - Quote Radiant Pancake3 wrote: ... Was just about to break 4k wp for the first time as a scout then I get fatal errored... I love you too dust... NUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH PANCAKE!!! xxo <3 Hugs you tight and strokes your back whispering "Everything will get better hun" even tho we both know eventually they may but soon it may all be over for the both of us. unrelated I THE DARK FLAME MASTER (no one picked up the reference so ill change it) THE MAGIC DEVIL GIRL HAS RETURNED!!!! lol nah ill think of a name today.... BUILD MORE FARMS!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.25 22:52:00 - [46974] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: ... not going to win you any favours from the CPM Do you truly think that is within the realm of possibility?
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.25 22:54:00 - [46975] - Quote Fristname Family name wrote: unrelated I THE DARK FLAME MASTER (no one picked up the reference so ill change it) THE MAGIC DEVIL GIRL HAS RETURNED!!!! lol nah ill think of a name today.... DEATH!
Fristname Family name Opus Arcana 651	Posted - 2015.09.25 22:55:00 - [46976] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: ... not going to win you any favours from the CPM Do you really think that is within the realm of possibility? Im gonna run for CPM Vote for me or else is my slogan BUILD MORE FARMS!
VAHZZ RabbitGang 9	Posted - 2015.09.25 23:00:00 - [46977] - Quote Even with the new Gal Assault bonus, i still see a small influx of GalRR happening. Someone tell me, all rail weaponry are getting range buffs, right? I am unsure and am too lazy to find the dev post. If that is true, i will be happy about my baby being useful again. I may even spec Cal stuff. Co-Founder of RabbitGang "VAHZZ is Forum Jesus" - GJR OG Scout Sniper.
VAHZZ RabbitGang 9	Posted - 2015.09.25 23:01:00 - [46978] - Quote Fristname Family name wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: ... not going to win you any favours from the CPM Do you really think that is within the realm of possibility? Im gonna run for CPM Vote for me or else is my slogan Sorry, you lost, I have already announced my running for CPM3. You can't beat tacos. DPLAK Co-Founder of RabbitGang "VAHZZ is Forum Jesus" - GJR OG Scout Sniper.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.25 23:02:00 - [46979] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: ... not going to win you any favours from the CPM Do you truly think that is within the realm of possibility? I don't know. But the longer you make a chain of reasoning the easier it is for people to pick holes. You may not win over all the CPM, but some people, be it CPM, players, or devs, are capable of reasonable discussion and understanding. Best to make your ideas and reasoning as clear to them as possible. Even as others try to shut you down.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.09.25 23:14:00 - [46980] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I feel, the way the game is at the moment, if the Devs just said "scouts are stealth suits, you can't scan them" and all scouts were all given a blanket immunity to all scans, no profile damps needed, they'd still be balanced. I don't even think people would notice much difference in game. I'm not actually suggesting this be done, and there would be major riots. It's just an interesting thought. Improving passive scanning on scouts would be more likely to make them OP again than improving dampening. There's room for some manoeuvre when it comes to EWAR, but I agree that fixing cloaks is probably the safer, and more needed option. Agreed. Also agree that this shouldn't be done. Varoth Drac wrote: But the longer you make a chain of reasoning the easier it is for people to pick holes. And agreed once again.



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