Heavies aren't meant to be a heavy version of the assault.

Heavies are meant to defend a position - they exceed as a defensive role. Set up round a corner and anything coming around that corner is dead. On Manus Peak, I used a heavy to great effect defending point C, despite coming under heavy assault, with bombardment from a railgun installation, too. Most assaults were too cautious to come close, and those that did I ripped to shreds in seconds.

With crap for range and crap for accuracy it's supposed to be a mid to mainly close range weapon right?

In a game where any given map is at least 80-90% open field where any other weapon with better range and accuracy can simply shred you before they're even in your range?

Add in the fact that thanks to pitiful per shot damage you're expected to keep a lock on enemies who thanks to horrible movement mechanics can jerk back and forth bouncing off the walls ensuring that you can't even drop their shields as they drop grenades on you?

I always see people saying "Well you have to play defensively!" How exactly? Hide behind that one stack of crates over by the objective? Stick with other players where the slow moving guy that can't fire back yet totally isn't the easy target?

As I've played I haven't seen that many HMG users, I'd always figured it was people shying away from the extra investments needed to unlock heavy armors and weapons, but it's more because anyone that gets tricked into believing there's any actual balance in this game sadly goes back to using an assault rifle build and eats the lost SP isn't it?

Heavies were meant to stand toe and toe with tanks if we use your logic. Where the hell is that?

Please - stop telling a class how to play.

I didn't mention tanks...? I said installation. From halfway across the map. I got behind cover, and despite being in a pretty limited area, managed to defend C for a few minutes.

I'll tell a class how to play until people who play that class actually understand that the heavy is a defensive tool. Anyone looking at the slow speed can tell you that. Heavies just can't cross ground quickly enough to get between cover and can't run up quickly enough to apply DPS consistently.

Assaults and scouts are much better at assaulting positions than heavies. Heavies simply don't have the speed to assault. Got it yet? CCP has gone on record as saying this is the heavy's role, what it has been designed for.

With crap for range and crap for accuracy it's supposed to be a mid to mainly close range weapon right?

In a game where any given map is at least 80-90% open field where any other weapon with better range and accuracy can simply shred you before they're even in your range?

Add in the fact that thanks to pitiful per shot damage you're expected to keep a lock on enemies who thanks to horrible movement mechanics can jerk back and forth bouncing off the walls ensuring that you can't even drop their shields as they drop grenades on you?

I always see people saying "Well you have to play defensively!" How exactly? Hide behind that one stack of crates over by the objective? Stick with other players where the slow moving guy that can't fire back yet totally isn't the easy target?

As I've played I haven't seen that many HMG users, I'd always figured it was people shying away from the extra investments needed to unlock heavy armors and weapons, but it's more because anyone that gets tricked into believing there's any actual balance in this game sadly goes back to using an assault rifle build and eats the lost SP isn't it?

it has this really awkward half-range thing going on, where it's pretty awful in CQC due to the extremely tight bullet corridor and seemingly lower damage, but actually really good at mid range for some reason?

and because of the low turn speed, it's really hard to keep up with strafing scouts in close quarters. i get a lot more kills with my standard smg at that range than i get with my prototype HMG.

With crap for range and crap for accuracy it's supposed to be a mid to mainly close range weapon right?

In a game where any given map is at least 80-90% open field where any other weapon with better range and accuracy can simply shred you before they're even in your range?

Add in the fact that thanks to pitiful per shot damage you're expected to keep a lock on enemies who thanks to horrible movement mechanics can jerk back and forth bouncing off the walls ensuring that you can't even drop their shields as they drop grenades on you?

I always see people saying "Well you have to play defensively!" How exactly? Hide behind that one stack of crates over by the objective? Stick with other players where the slow moving guy that can't fire back yet totally isn't the easy target?

As I've played I haven't seen that many HMG users, I'd always figured it was people shying away from the extra investments needed to unlock heavy armors and weapons, but it's more because anyone that gets tricked into believing there's any actual balance in this game sadly goes back to using an assault rifle build and eats the lost SP isn't it?

I didn't mention tanks...? I said installation. From halfway across the map. I got behind cover, and despite being in a pretty limited area, managed to defend C for a few minutes.

I'll tell a class how to play until people who play that class actually understand that the heavy is a defensive tool. Anyone looking at the slow speed can tell you that. Heavies just can't cross ground quickly enough to get between cover and can't run up quickly enough to apply DPS consistently.

Assaults and scouts are much better at assaulting positions than heavies. Heavies simply don't have the speed to assault. Got it yet? CCP has gone on record as saying this is the heavy's role, what it has been designed for.

Stop whining, I can play easily with a Heavy Machine Gun and I suck in this game, I just got out of the academy and I can get good scores with weapons that aren't AR's.

They created the weapons, they are going to change range, power etc to theur liking.

Heavies aren't meant to be a heavy version of the assault.

Heavies are meant to defend a position - they exceed as a defensive role. Set up round a corner and anything coming around that corner is dead. On Manus Peak, I used a heavy to great effect defending point C, despite coming under heavy assault, with bombardment from a railgun installation, too. Most assaults were too cautious to come close, and those that did I ripped to shreds in seconds.

Heavies are not defensive tools - that is the counter every idiot who fears OP infantry tanks spouts.

We are walls that move the battlefield or get picked off for being idiots standing out in the open. Any points to say heavies are only meant to be one thing is worthy of being called ignorant. CCP calls heavies JUGGERNAUGTS that stand toe to toe with tanks - so if we were to take CCP to there word they're already lying about what our class can do.

Heavies don't move fast - you're right - they need to move smart instead. For when they do reach the front lines safe they can move it forward. Or used to be able too - now a heavy trying anything but point defense is folly and proof CCP has no idea wtf they're doing.

And I'll remind you we are suppose to be able to create our own perfect solider. My ideal one would be a slow moving tank , ops, not going to happen, why even with all of CCP's brag of customization? It's ridiculous and posts like yours supports CCP's ignorance of there own creation.

...

What did you find was best for cover/protection? I tend to find that assaults don't need to come close as they can easily outrange me.

"My ideal one would be a slow moving tank"

Unfortunately, should you be granted the role you want (i.e. slow, but hard to kill) you would be a one man team. Not great for balance, hey?

For example, back in closed beta, I remember heavies running around with AR's. That was literally the only thing on the field. This allowed them to "move the front line forward". So much so that the assault was completely replaced.

Heavies cannot stand toe to toe with tanks. From dust514.com, "The Heavy dropsuit is a second-generation solution designed to withstand concentrated small arms fire and protect the wearer from the concussive, thermal, and impact forces of low-grade explosives." As far as I know, (apart from TAR's) they do that role quite well.

Heavies ARE meant for point defense. Any other role for them would be OP, as they would be walking powerhouses. They're slow on foot, which means that they require assistance getting to the battlefield, but once they get into CQC they excel. Jumping from a dropship into CQC, or spawning at a drop uplink at an objective when its about to be overrun, are ideal solutions for a heavy.

Walking up to the front line then punching a hole through it is not. That's best suited for an assault.

I was a Heavy for severa build(till I start to skill HAV). I think that HMG is a weapon that is ahead of its time. It was meant to be successful in narrow corridors with we don't have yet in game. CCP prefer to implement environment with open area as you said rather than close building with doors, windows, tight rooms, long corridors - where HMG would be really deadly.
...
One of really good tactics in previous builds was to use LAV to cut your range between the enemy and you to minimum, and prevent him from disengage.

"My ideal one would be a slow moving tank"

Unfortunately, should you be granted the role you want (i.e. slow, but hard to kill) you would be a one man team. Not great for balance, hey?

For example, back in closed beta, I remember heavies running around with AR's. That was literally the only thing on the field. This allowed them to "move the front line forward". So much so that the assault was completely replaced.

Heavies cannot stand toe to toe with tanks. From dust514.com, "The Heavy dropsuit is a second-generation solution designed to withstand concentrated small arms fire and protect the wearer from the concussive, thermal, and impact forces of low-grade explosives." As far as I know, (apart from TAR's) they do that role quite well.

Heavies ARE meant for point defense. Any other role for them would be OP, as they would be walking powerhouses. They're slow on foot, which means that they require assistance getting to the battlefield, but once they get into CQC they excel. Jumping from a dropship into CQC, or spawning at a drop uplink at an objective when its about to be overrun, are ideal solutions for a heavy.

Walking up to the front line then punching a hole through it is not. That's best suited for an assault.

The Tac-Ar actually outdamages the HMG. Here's the math (assuming there are no damage modifiers on either side):

HMG

20 damage x 2000 dpm/ 60 seconds= 667 damage per second

Tac-AR

72 damage x 750 dpm/60 seconds= 900 dps

Once again showing there's no reason to pick any other weapon except the Tac AR.

I used a building. I think it was Manus Peak, but I can't quite pinpoint where I was. Maybe it was a different map... Think I'm confusing myself here. There was a supply depot, with an L-shaped building covering it from B, and a small gap between that building and another facing A. I stayed on the side with the supply depot, hiding from grenades, AR's and the like. The only way you could see me (as an AR) would be to get into CQC, as in, within five meters.

Not exactly. With more armor than shields, all heavies, no matter how decent their HMG, needs a logi to repair them. They also need assault buddies to keep enemies(especially shotty scouts) from getting them from behind because of their horrendous turning speed. Heavies will never be a one man team, and HMGs having decent range will not change that.

Never said heavies were perfect in their current iteration. Only said that heavies are best used in a defensive role. Heavy machine guns are almost exclusively used, in both modern warfare and in most games, as a defensive tool. For example, WW1. Heavy machine guns were set up to defend trenches, rather than assault the enemy trenches. WW2. Setting up a machine gun took time, even the lighter, support ones. The larger ones (Browning MG) took two men to set up and use.

These heavy machine guns take on a different role when mounted on a vehicle. When used by infantry, it's primarily defensive. Not offensive.

My understanding of the way things stand currently, is that all weapons are having the hard cap on ranges taken off and having falloff damage applied, when CCP has this system ready. Which is hopefully soon. This gives the HMG more range without dealing the same damage at 5m it would at 50m.

I say again... Heavies with HMG's are meant to be used for defense. In the future, their role will also spread to suppression, when above range fix comes into play.

With crap for range and crap for accuracy it's supposed to be a mid to mainly close range weapon right?

In a game where any given map is at least 80-90% open field where any other weapon with better range and accuracy can simply shred you before they're even in your range?

Add in the fact that thanks to pitiful per shot damage you're expected to keep a lock on enemies who thanks to horrible movement mechanics can jerk back and forth bouncing off the walls ensuring that you can't even drop their shields as they drop grenades on you?

I always see people saying "Well you have to play defensively!" How exactly? Hide behind that one stack of crates over by the objective? Stick with other players where the slow moving guy that can't fire back yet totally isn't the easy target?

As I've played I haven't seen that many HMG users, I'd always figured it was people shying away from the extra investments needed to unlock heavy armors and weapons, but it's more because anyone that gets tricked into believing there's any actual balance in this game sadly goes back to using an assault rifle build and eats the lost SP isn't it?

Heavies aren't complaining that they die open field. They're complaining that they cannot compete in areas where they are supposed to excel because the suit and weapons have been over-nerfed to the point of making them uncompetitive VS assault in those areas where you claim they are supposed to be superior.

I can do everything a heavy is supposed to do better with an assault or a scout and have more SP to spend elswhere, so why even have them at all?


If the devs aren't willing to let them excel in anything other than being big slow targets that take 6-8 extra bullets to kill, I actually have to recommend that CCP look into dropping the heavy suits and heavy weapons all together.

A little extra damage drop-off range on the HMG ain't gonna do ish.

I haven't been playing for long,

I haven't been playing for long, but if any of you have seen me with my HMG, you know this thread is a load of bull. The HMG is powerful to anyone who can become accustomed to its range, anyone that says otherwise spends too much time with a TAC and wants everything to be an Iwin button.

With crap for range and crap for accuracy it's supposed to be a mid to mainly close range weapon right?

In a game where any given map is at least 80-90% open field where any other weapon with better range and accuracy can simply shred you before they're even in your range?

Add in the fact that thanks to pitiful per shot damage you're expected to keep a lock on enemies who thanks to horrible movement mechanics can jerk back and forth bouncing off the walls ensuring that you can't even drop their shields as they drop grenades on you?

I always see people saying "Well you have to play defensively!" How exactly? Hide behind that one stack of crates over by the objective? Stick with other players where the slow moving guy that can't fire back yet totally isn't the easy target?

As I've played I haven't seen that many HMG users, I'd always figured it was people shying away from the extra investments needed to unlock heavy armors and weapons, but it's more because anyone that gets tricked into believing there's any actual balance in this game sadly goes back to using an assault rifle build and eats the lost SP isn't it?

Exactly. Most of the noob heavy users don't have a clue at the complete lack of potential their chosen class has VS the assault or scout classes because your handicap forces you to adapt a playstyle that is generally successful anyway - corner camping and ambushing.

Some of us have been here bashing our head against a wall for over a year about this.
The proto HMG used to do 30 DMG per shot with the heavy suit turning speed equal to all other suits - and even then it still wasn't the insta win button that everyone thinks it was or fears will emerge.

Your doing it wrong...

yessss

Please god fix the turn speed already CCP - are we going to wait another 6 months like we did before you fixed heavy protosuit prices?

CCP hates heavies - the proof is in the HMG and racial suits.

Exactly. Most of the noob heavy users don't have a clue at the complete lack of potential their chosen class has VS the assault or scout classes because your handicap forces you to adapt a playstyle that is generally successful anyway - corner camping and ambushing.

Some of us have been here bashing our head against a wall for over a year about this.
The proto HMG used to do 30 DMG per shot with the heavy suit turning speed equal to all other suits - and even then it still wasn't the insta win button that everyone thinks it was or fears will emerge.

With crap for range and crap for accuracy it's supposed to be a mid to mainly close range weapon right?

In a game where any given map is at least 80-90% open field where any other weapon with better range and accuracy can simply shred you before they're even in your range?

Add in the fact that thanks to pitiful per shot damage you're expected to keep a lock on enemies who thanks to horrible movement mechanics can jerk back and forth bouncing off the walls ensuring that you can't even drop their shields as they drop grenades on you?

I always see people saying "Well you have to play defensively!" How exactly? Hide behind that one stack of crates over by the objective? Stick with other players where the slow moving guy that can't fire back yet totally isn't the easy target?

As I've played I haven't seen that many HMG users, I'd always figured it was people shying away from the extra investments needed to unlock heavy armors and weapons, but it's more because anyone that gets tricked into believing there's any actual balance in this game sadly goes back to using an assault rifle build and eats the lost SP isn't it?

ARs and the HMG need to trade range falloffs to be honest. Phased plasma shouldn't be getting more incidental damage than projectile ammunition.

I haven't been playing for long, but if any of you have seen me with my HMG, you know this thread is a load of bull. The HMG is powerful to anyone who can become accustomed to its range, anyone that says otherwise spends too much time with a TAC and wants everything to be an Iwin button.

People who use HMGs these days often do so poorly.

HMG is a defensive weapon.

You take your heavy suit and you move in once an objective is taken and guard it with your life.

I made a heavy on an alt with 1.5 mil SPs and I was shredding people with a HMG. I usually get more kill assists than kills but that's fine with me. People usually run for cover when they see a heavy round a corner and you can use this to your advantage. At one point in a match my HMG was out of ammo so I switched to a SMG and waded into a room with 5-6 enemies. I killed a few and drove the rest off with a SMG. I really enjoy playing on that alt.

This.

I have a heavy with 1.3 million SP.

I get more kills with it than my assault with 4.3 million SP.

Perhaps the OP is trying to run a heavy as an assault? DERP

And for the poster that said scouts can do the heavies job better.. you gotta be kidding me right?

Also i think the real fix to the heavy is to give it an L slot on top of the S and H so i can switch to a AR when out in the open.

Heavies were meant to stand toe and toe with tanks if we use your logic. Where the hell is that?

Please - stop telling a class how to play.

They should just get rid of the heavy class altogether.
Assault has all of the same options available to it as heavy. Its place on the battlefield is way too niche to have an entire suit class dedicated t it.

De-compile to binary, print it out in grey scale, and fire it into the sun.

No.

Heavies were meant to stand toe and toe with tanks if we use your logic. Where the hell is that?

Please - stop telling a class how to play.

Even CCP said that Heavy's were meant to be point defense guys.

Please - accept the guy's helpful advice

Please accept my complete nonacceptance of that guy's advice.

EVEN CCP SAID YOU COULD PLAY AS A HEAVY MEDIC WELL HOW IN THE FLIPPING FLIP FLIPPER DO I DO THAT LIL JOHNNY NUMB SACK?

SPOILERS: You can't.

Don't listen to CCP. Retire the heavy. It makes my feelings feel bad.

Oh no, your feelings are hurt. Would you like a lolly?

If the heavy doesn't suit your playstyle, then don't play it. Simple. The heavy is, and has been, intended for point defense and AV since open beta. Suck it up, get used to it.

Oh no, your feelings are hurt. Would you like a lolly?

If the heavy doesn't suit your playstyle, then don't play it. Simple. The heavy is, and has been, intended for point defense and AV since open beta. Suck it up, get used to it.

Anyone who thinks that heavies are outdated and in effective can come and see me on the battlefield. yes it will be a bloodbath and yes you will kill me a few times but i will earn the respect that heavies deserve. And many players in top corps know that my heavy and my well trained heavy brothers will put down some serious firepower like we are meant to. I will say though that i am sad to see so many have left the class for the easy way out of assault.

Since Open Beta? No.

Pretty sure they were better in Chromosome than in Uprising. Even then they were lulz in Corp Matches, and they had range then. So they took out range and made heavies slower in Uprising.

Actually, they nerfed the HMG dmg by 20%, AND took out sharpshooter. Thanks to allot of heavies speaking up the dev realized he made a mistake with numbers and corrected the dmg nerf.

I went off on a tangent there, but just pointing out that heavies weren't confined to this "defensive" role since open beta, you're wrong. This new role has been forced on us in Uprising due to the fact we ONLY have Amarr suit and ONLY have the HMG (FG is AV)

You misread. I put the "intended" in there intentionally. They were always meant for a defensive role.

You're trying to force a class into a specific role...that's not what this game is meant for. Like saying the scout suit is only for sniping in mountains, the assault suit is only for assaulting with AR's, the logi suit is only for healing people.

You can't shove a specific role on a class, regardless what CCP says about it.

I had a corpmate that made his tank as fast as LAV's just cuz HE COULD. If you think heavies are ONLY for defense then that's a real ignorant outlook to classes.

You're trying to force a class into a specific role...that's not what this game is meant for. Like saying the scout suit is only for sniping in mountains, the assault suit is only for assaulting with AR's, the logi suit is only for healing people.

You can't shove a specific role on a class, regardless what CCP says about it.

I had a corpmate that made his tank as fast as LAV's just cuz HE COULD. If you think heavies are ONLY for defense then that's a real ignorant outlook to classes.

Yes, you can attempt to use it any way you please. Though it will have a place in which it shines. For the heavy that is a defensive position where the advantages of the weapon can be brought to bear.

Yes, you can attempt to use it any way you please. Though it will have a place in which it shines. For the heavy that is a defensive position where the advantages of the weapon can be brought to bear.

Yes, you can attempt to use it any way you please. Though it will have a place in which it shines. For the heavy that is a defensive position where the advantages of the weapon can be brought to bear.

You're trying to force a class into a specific role...that's not what this game is meant for. Like saying the scout suit is only for sniping in mountains, the assault suit is only for assaulting with AR's, the logi suit is only for healing people.

You can't shove a specific role on a class, regardless what CCP says about it.

I had a corpmate that made his tank as fast as LAV's just cuz HE COULD. If you think heavies are ONLY for defense then that's a real ignorant outlook to classes.

Kay, let's see. High HP, check. Low speed, check. What does that equal? A low mobility heavy weapons platform. That's its description, no? Its anti-personnel main weapon of choice is short range. No one can argue with that. Coupled with the low mobility, this means that it needs the enemy to come to it. Is there any fault with that logic?
Again, I'm not forcing the suit into a role, I'm simply stating THAT'S WHAT'S IT'S BEST AT.

You misread. I put the "intended" in there intentionally. They were always meant for a defensive role.

@Billy

In a defensive situation, you get to control exactly where you fight. The enemy don't. They come to you instead of you going to them. If you're a heavy, you dictate exactly where you meet the assaults. If you're smart, that would be in CQC. Also, when playing defensively, you don't run across 20m of open ground.

You can defend any position better in proto assault than you can in proto heavy for many reasons, but one reason in particular stands out- Two equipment slots.
You can carry repair hives AND REs. You can single handedly hold a position way longer with that than you can with a skittle hose and some armor that eats 4 extra TAC rifle shots.

You have quite the imagination. Where are these magical places where only the heavy can shine?

This can be done in exactly 4 places of importance in the entire game - places where it can be done better with an assault.

And you're wrong again. The removal of sharpshooter forced the HMG into a defensive role. Before it was a versatile suit / class. Able to attack and defend, which EVERY class should be able to do, as that is a very basic aspect of a FPS.

But people with your mentality are happy to force a class into 1 role and call that a day. The range nerf to all weapons hurt the HMG the most cuz without it, heavies are stuck camping. That's fun for people? Camping a room?

Plus this defensive role you speak of, it's also followed by another one I laugh at... the "support role". Support and defend what exactly? A 10-15m radius? lol

Forcing roles into a class is a sure way to see people move away from it... like many have done already.

I'm not kidding. I proved it like 5 builds ago. the HMG is a joke. the heavy class is trash.

I will kill your heavy, or any proto heavy in my 0 SP investment totally free sneeze in my direction dragonfly scout build - all day. Solo. I'll even reload right in your face.

[
So you're saying a tank / HAV is BEST at defense cuz it's slow, has allot of HP and is anti personnel.

You can defend any position better in proto assault than you can in proto heavy for many reasons, but one reason in particular stands out- Two equipment slots.
You can carry repair hives AND REs. You can single handedly hold a position way longer with that than you can with a skittle hose and some armor that eats 4 extra TAC rifle shots.

But in answer to your question, yes, yes it is. Tanks are awful offensively unless supported by a squad, because AV will ambush and take them out easily. When playing offensively without a squad, the tank will need to keep moving, unless it wants to be hit by a lot of concentrated AV. Not good for offensive play, since usually you want to hold the ground you take. Even defensively they need a squad, for the same reason.

Frankly, if you can't be bothered coming up with a decent, logical argument to my post, then you have no case.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense. Like, do you even play this game? A heavy is basically a stationary turret with the health of a dropsuit and a half.

There is nowhere that a heavy is the best option. No. Where. It doesn't exist.

lol

My point was tanks have 2 very capable roles, attack and defend, while the Heavy, which you described as being a walking HAV has 1. Now you're just confusing yourself.

So where's your logic?

You're still forcing the heavy into 1 roll, while the HAV can do both well enough.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense. Like, do you even play this game? A heavy is basically a stationary turret with the health of a dropsuit and a half.

There is nowhere that a heavy is the best option. No. Where. It doesn't exist.

lol

My point was tanks have 2 very capable roles, attack and defend, while the Heavy, which you described as being a walking HAV has 1. Now you're just confusing yourself.

So where's your logic?

You're still forcing the heavy into 1 roll, while the HAV can do both well enough.

Yet people are doing what you claim is impossible and using them successfully. How do you account for that? A random collection of accidents?

Again, I'm not *forcing* the heavy into a role. That IS it's role. I also never said that the heavy was BEST at any particular role, but that the role it's best at is defense, be it AP or AV defense. There's a difference. It's like saying option A is best across the board, scoring 90% in categories 1, 2 and 3, but option B scores best in category 3, with 89%, whereas it scores 50% in the other two.

If you want to play heavy, then do so, but don't force it into a role it's not suited to e.g. assault.

At the current time, assaults can take the place of the heavy in a defensive role, but that's simply because of the TAR, not because of any fault on the HMG's part.



Read above.

Again, I'm not *forcing* the heavy into a role. That IS its role. I also never said that the heavy was BEST at any particular role, but that the role it's best at is defense, be it AP or AV defense. There's a difference. It's like saying option A is best across the board, scoring 90% in categories 1, 2 and 3, but option B scores best in category 3, with 89%, whereas it scores 50% in the other two.

If you want to play heavy, then do so, but don't force it into a role it's not suited to e.g. assault.

At the current time, assaults can take the place of the heavy in a defensive role, but that's simply because of the TAR, not because of any fault on the HMG's part.

They only took from the heavy. I don't know anything they actually gave the heavy suit. Thanks CCP!

5% reduction in bullet spread bro!

The heavy doesn't have much spread as is. The accuracy has always been good, at least I thought so. Some might even complain that the reduced spread is a negative as well. I personally never noticed an issue with too much bullet spread but I'm only one person. Perhaps others did.

WAT WAT WAT WAT WTA OMG AREUFRIGASDDLKJHD:IIHSADOPIHSADIUH!!!!

Seriously, Bro?

The heavy doesn't have much spread as is. The accuracy has always been good, at least I thought so. Some might even complain that the reduced spread is a negative as well. I personally never noticed an issue with too much bullet spread but I'm only one person. Perhaps others did.

still waiting for a link to where a dev says the hmg ( not the sentinel suit) is a defensive weapon.

Considering it's one of 2 weapons that are exclusive to that suit and the fact that the role was brought up by CCP while discussing HMG balance I'd say demanding a direct statement is at this point being a bit purposefully obtuse.

Considering it's one of 2 weapons that are exclusive to that suit and the fact that the role was brought up by CCP while discussing HMG balance I'd say demanding a direct statement is at this point being a bit purposefully obtuse.

163 kills 0.65 kd . who's alt are you prome. or are you just a noob. still waiting on that link

With crap for range and crap for accuracy it's supposed to be a mid to mainly close range weapon right?

In a game where any given map is at least 80-90% open field where any other weapon with better range and accuracy can simply shred you before they're even in your range?

Add in the fact that thanks to pitiful per shot damage you're expected to keep a lock on enemies who thanks to horrible movement mechanics can jerk back and forth bouncing off the walls ensuring that you can't even drop their shields as they drop grenades on you?

I always see people saying "Well you have to play defensively!" How exactly? Hide behind that one stack of crates over by the objective? Stick with other players where the slow moving guy that can't fire back yet totally isn't the easy target?

As I've played I haven't seen that many HMG users, I'd always figured it was people shying away from the extra investments needed to unlock heavy armors and weapons, but it's more because anyone that gets tricked into believing there's any actual balance in this game sadly goes back to using an assault rifle build and eats the lost SP isn't it?

well he didn't say heavies were designed , he said sentinels . while the thread he mentioned it in was an hmg thread people were also complaining about lack of high slots, massdrivers and other things. he also in that thread talked of increased falloff damage as being a solution to the heavies weakness before they increased the damage by aprx. 6 points. so yes i would like them to specifically state that the hmg is defensive. if only so i can then get them to explain the difference between an offensive and defensive weapon. for if im defending objective X, and it has a hallway or door that makes the hmg especially useful. then when im attacking objective X it has a hallway or door (or whatever layout) that is that useful. the terrain is the same the only difference is what color the objective is.
at least now with the new patch i just downloaded the hit detection got sooooo much better.

I'm no ones alt. You yourself can see I play the game on this character if you are looking at my stats. I'm not a noob, I'm just terrible at shooters, run militia level gear and I'm not afraid to run through a hell of bullets to try to take an objective. My KD will always be poor.

19309 wp . if your not an alt and youve only earned 20k in wp, thats pretty nob . still waiting for link

Edit: After some searching here is a post from CCP on the subject addressing people's complaints about the HMG while referencing the heavy AND point defense.

Give us more suits. Give me my B-Series back. Give heavies who don't use HMG's the Atlas suit. Give our turning speed back. Give our assault and defence role back. God give me patience.

Heavy + HMG :
Pros
- HMG okay Damage output (around 650)
- High HP, around 1500 if equipped with 2 complex shield extender and 3 complex plates).
Cons
-slow suit(easy target)
-big hitbox(easy target)
- HMG dispersion
- Low range
- Bigger scanning profile
- Slow turning speed
- Need a logi repairer, or repair module instead of plates
- Definately can't strafe
- rarely achieve headshot with most bullets
- Can't carry anything
- Can't jump

Assault/Logi + AR :

Pros
- AR and TAR good DPS, 360 DPS and let say around 700 DPS for guy that can click fast enough.
- Medium-High HP, around 800-900 if equipped with 4-5 complex shield extender
- fast
- can Strafe with ease.
- Can carry equipment, which mean nanites, scanners, nanohives, droplink
-medium hit box
-higher headshot bonus
- Can aim (with a sight)
- Long range
- Jump well enough to go over barriers

Cons...
-Less speed than scout
-Less HP than heavy


Help me here,because I have no kitten clue what else. I know i run heavy so my analysis might be a bit wrong, but I don,t mind people adding to this.

lol

*sigh*... people and their judging of weapons in pub games against noobs. This community will NEVER learn. Thanks to CCP's data collecting in pubs, they saw how easy it was too mow down noobs using militia suits running straight at heavies, so they thought a nerf was needed.

People need to think OUTSIDE THE BOX. People don't pub 24/7 against noobs who don't know their arse from their elbow, and it's only when you play against good people you'll see how WEAK the class is.

I personally have always wanted the Heavy class to be a CQC nightmare. I think the Heavy should be a class that has one dominating strength and multiple weaknesses. It should be a juggernaut that excels at close range and destroys everything, but it should be a class that is completely worthless at mid to long range. That would be the trade-off for having such lethal ability at close range. I would also give HMGGÇÖs insane power and burn up. I have always been annoyed that CCP has allowed this pitiful burn up mechanic to exist and it allows any scrub heavy to hold the trigger down to get kills. Heavy should be a skillful class that is a high risk and high reward weapon. Maxing out HMG operation should not mean that you never burn up and in fact the burn up should be incredible to the point that you have to grab level 5 in order to somewhat control it. I also would significantly increase the turning speed of the Heavy because itGÇÖs a joke right now. I have seen rail guns turn faster. Heavy should be a class that you have to strategically place in order for it to be effective and it should require patience from those that use it.

To those that want heavy to be used from a defensive position. Be careful what you wish for because if CCP goes ahead and gives suppression mechanics to heavies then youGÇÖre in for a rude awakening. I come from BF3 and while suppression is great in concept itGÇÖs terrible in practice. Think of the suppression a Mass driver inflicts and multiply it by 10 because that is what a HMG will do if given suppression mechanics. If you think spray and pray was annoying now wait until a HMG kills you because a Heavy is literally holding down the button with 425 bullets of suppression fury.

Heavies aren't complaining that they die open field. They're complaining that they cannot compete in areas where they are supposed to excel because the suit and weapons have been over-nerfed to the point of making them uncompetitive VS assault in those areas where you claim they are supposed to be superior.

I can do everything a heavy is supposed to do better with an assault or a scout and have more SP to spend elswhere, so why even have them at all?


If the devs aren't willing to let them excel in anything other than being big slow targets that take 6-8 extra bullets to kill, I actually have to recommend that CCP look into dropping the heavy suits and heavy weapons all together.

A little extra damage drop-off range on the HMG ain't gonna do ish.

CQC with that turning speed, thats what shotguns are for. really? if you guys had your way heavy suits would just be turrets. and with most maps being 80%-90% open field, your just asking for another target. realistically the hmg should have equal to or more range than an AR. the heat up time is good as it is.

due to its initial dispersion its allegedly good at CQC, but once the spooling is complete it should accurate enough to hit the AR camper on the roof. (by that time ive already spent about 100 bullets spooling). remember the suit is inherently balanced it doesn't need trade offs it has them now. the limited mobility, reload time, initial inaccuracy, few suit slots, low damage to shields, bad turning speed, susceptibility to shotguns, nova knives and grenades.

the way it is now i cant hit someone from literally across the street, in real life, someone two blocks down would still get shredded. remember this isn't an LMG this is an HMG with a suit especial designed to carry it.

Even CCP said that Heavy's were meant to be point defense guys.

Please - accept the guy's helpful advice

Can one of the people yelping about "its a defensive weapon" explain what the fundamental difference between attacking and defending is. If i can't put people down while attacking how do i suddenly gain the ability to kill them if the objective near me is blue. If an enemy can strafe step around me while im attacking what changes when im defending. Is the hit deyection different around base you have captured? Is there a damage bonus? We have the largest radar sig so if we are defending we will show up earlier then any other suit so its not like we can suprise the enemy.
Also i have only seen the devs talk about how the sentinel suit was designed for a defensive role can some one provide a link to where the devs say the hmg is a defensive weapon.
Lastly if the weapon isn't leathal how can it be used as a supressive weapon, as some people say it is supposed to be. If tue enemy isnt n danger of dying they will just ignore and or kill you.

You misread. I put the "intended" in there intentionally. They were always meant for a defensive role.

@Billy

In a defensive situation, you get to control exactly where you fight. The enemy don't. They come to you instead of you going to them. If you're a heavy, you dictate exactly where you meet the assaults. If you're smart, that would be in CQC. Also, when playing defensively, you don't run across 20m of open ground.

defensive

You misread. I put the "intended" in there intentionally. They were always meant for a defensive role.

@Billy

In a defensive situation, you get to control exactly where you fight. The enemy don't. They come to you instead of you going to them. If you're a heavy, you dictate exactly where you meet the assaults. If you're smart, that would be in CQC. Also, when playing defensively, you don't run across 20m of open ground.

And you're wrong again. The removal of sharpshooter forced the HMG into a defensive role. Before it was a versatile suit / class. Able to attack and defend, which EVERY class should be able to do, as that is a very basic aspect of a FPS.

But people with your mentality are happy to force a class into 1 role and call that a day. The range nerf to all weapons hurt the HMG the most cuz without it, heavies are stuck camping. That's fun for people? Camping a room?

Plus this defensive role you speak of, it's also followed by another one I laugh at... the "support role". Support and defend what exactly? A 10-15m radius? lol

Forcing roles into a class is a sure way to see people move away from it... like many have done already.

bullshit . how am i in control of where i encounter the enemy if i show up on radar first, objectives have multiple ways in, and i can be easily out flanked. go thru the maps in your head, most objectives have a wide open side to them. not to mention that if the enemy does come to me i also have to make sure they aren't too close as they can strafe around me quite easily, and i cant run from a grenade well. and as the assault suits have a shorter wait for sheild recharge they can play peekaboo with me till i have to reload.

Kay, let's see. High HP, check. Low speed, check. What does that equal? A low mobility heavy weapons platform. That's its description, no? Its anti-personnel main weapon of choice is short range. No one can argue with that. Coupled with the low mobility, this means that it needs the enemy to come to it. Is there any fault with that logic? This automatically means defensive role. I can't see how you can't think that through. I'm not forcing the heavy suit into a role, that IS its role. Give it an AR and it still won't be able to keep up with an assault suit, simply because the assault suit is more mobile, and can trick the heavy user when running around cover (e.g. a shipping container-type thing) to pop round behind him.

Sure, you can play your heavy like that, but that's not his best role. Just like a scout's best role is not to take out tanks. Or an assault's best role is not to support the team.

It's really quite simple - the heavy's best role, the role it exceeds at, is defensive play. You CAN play it offensively, but you're much better off playing assault for that. You CAN use it to snipe, but it's a waste of the suit. You CAN use it with a shotgun, but it's effectively useless like that.

Again, I'm not forcing the suit into a role, I'm simply stating THAT'S WHAT'S IT'S BEST AT.

I see a flaw and experienced players stop me if it's incorrect. If a heavy's sole purpose is to defend, do they wait for their team to take an objective until they can actually perform their jobs? If so, that means that all heavy specialized players should just wait in the MCC until they have an objective to defend. The problem becomes noticed if the team is unable to take an objective and must attack the for the duration of match. I suppose that it's accepted that since the heavy cannot help you attack, they can freely sit in the MCC until the team does grab that objective or gets redlined, in which case, the heavy we never need to leave the MCC. CCP claims the heavy is only for defending as well so that implies CCP expects the heavy soldier to remain in the spawn point if there is no objective to defend. That seems logical to me.

If you are a heavy, you do this; sit in the MCC until you are able to defend something. If someone complains, you tell them you're job is not to attack, it is to defend.


CCP caters to all classes but not the heavy. They gave the assault and logistics drop suits that can mass up to or more than1k total armor and shield to match the heavy. I have a corp mate that has 600 shield, 400 armor and a GLU TAC because the minmatar assault has 5 high slots and 4 low slots. He can do the defensive job of a heavy much better as he has only 100 less hp than I do and he can actually kill other players while still keeping much better mobility than my heavy. The assault really can do the job of a heavy better.


They gave snipers plenty of open spaces and a redline close to the action so they cannot be flanked nearly as easily and a buff to sniper rifles dmg.

They only took from the heavy. I don't know anything they actually gave the heavy suit. Thanks CCP!

Heavies are not defensive tools - that is the counter every idiot who fears OP infantry tanks spouts.

We are walls that move the battlefield or get picked off for being idiots standing out in the open. Any points to say heavies are only meant to be one thing is worthy of being called ignorant. CCP calls heavies JUGGERNAUGTS that stand toe to toe with tanks - so if we were to take CCP to there word they're already lying about what our class can do.

Heavies don't move fast - you're right - they need to move smart instead. For when they do reach the front lines safe they can move it forward. Or used to be able too - now a heavy trying anything but point defense is folly and proof CCP has no idea wtf they're doing.

And I'll remind you we are suppose to be able to create our own perfect solider. My ideal one would be a slow moving tank , ops, not going to happen, why even with all of CCP's brag of customization? It's ridiculous and posts like yours supports CCP's ignorance of there own creation.

Realistically. the HMG should have the stats it had in Replication.

Do I know you?

perhaps.

1. heavies should have thier run speed increased by about 15% to actually be able to participate in the game and support their team.

2. heavies should have 500shield and 500 armor

3. heavies armor and shields should by passively resistant by 30% (basic. it should be given) to small arms and grenades. with the ability that it can be increased by 2% to a max of 10% (or total 40%) resistance per skill lvl. (head shots do not receive this bonus)

the regular exile assault rifle does 31hp at 750 rpm for a 387.5dps, and a total 1860 per clip. with the base -30% to small arms and grenade damage received, that dps becomes 271.25pds and a total of 1302 per clip to a heavy. so in one clip a heavy can still be killed. however, this is assuming that the AR wielder is not missing any shots. if you as a heavy effectively take cover -OR- are shooting at the same time and not missing you will kill them in a one v one situation.

heavies are designed to win 1v1 encounters and to defend squads from being over run with suppressive fire.


these buffs are meant to balance the slow run speed, slow turning speed (this shouldn't change), the high skill point cost (you cnt just be a heavy and something else, you have to invest tons of sp into it), the lack of additional high power and low power slots, ease of heads-hots (slow target easier head shots), the long reload time, susceptibility to snipers and vehicles (vehicles should do the same damage to heavies as they dont fire small arms)

this will lead to a more dynamic gameplay as heavies will be able to both defend their squads from being over run, and push forward toward an objective.

please remind me, what was that like?

I understand you wanted to make the Heavy play the role of point defender. To me this means being able to take on at least a full squad of 6 by myself as is often the case. In order for this to happen HMG needs either:

category a.) Longer range, tighter bullet spread, less kick/heat build up, smaller targeting reticule, wind up upon ADS, suppression effect: stopping power (-__% movement speed per landed round), more damage

or

category b.)Faster turning speed, more damage, faster wind up when AFH, suppression effect: blur (-__% visibility per landed round), longer range, tighter spread, wind up upon ADS, less kick/heat build up

I wouldn't mind seeing a category a.) HMG(point man assaulter) and a category b.) HMG(point defender) in each tier for the HMG in order to add more diversification for the Heavy's role. Either one of these categories would work for point defender, however.

These are my suggestions please note under each category suggestions are listed in order of importance for intended purpose.

These suggestions are based off of my own experience, other players' suggestions, and the DEVs'/players' communications.

1. heavies should have thier run speed increased by about 15% to actually be able to participate in the game and support their team.

2. heavies should have 500shield and 500 armor

3. heavies armor and shields should by passively resistant by 30% (basic. it should be given) to small arms and grenades. with the ability that it can be increased by 2% to a max of 10% (or total 40%) resistance per skill lvl. (head shots do not receive this bonus)

the regular exile assault rifle does 31hp at 750 rpm for a 387.5dps, and a total 1860 per clip. with the base -30% to small arms and grenade damage received, that dps becomes 271.25pds and a total of 1302 per clip to a heavy. so in one clip a heavy can still be killed. however, this is assuming that the AR wielder is not missing any shots. if you as a heavy effectively take cover -OR- are shooting at the same time and not missing you will kill them in a one v one situation.

heavies are designed to win 1v1 encounters and to defend squads from being over run with suppressive fire.


these buffs are meant to balance the slow run speed, slow turning speed (this shouldn't change), the high skill point cost (you cnt just be a heavy and something else, you have to invest tons of sp into it), the lack of additional high power and low power slots, ease of heads-hots (slow target easier head shots), the long reload time, susceptibility to snipers and vehicles (vehicles should do the same damage to heavies as they dont fire small arms)

this will lead to a more dynamic gameplay as heavies will be able to both defend their squads from being over run, and push forward toward an objective.

i personally dont care about the sprint speed as much as i do the turn speed. i dont see why slow overall movement has to effect how quickly we can change the direction we are facing, tbh.

sick to death of every weapon doing more dmg than the hmg. boundless does 19.8 (thats the proto HMG for those of u that didnt know) while submachine guns do what, 22? but with no dispersion.

honestly, with the duvolle doing 77dmg (not QQ about AR dmg as much as im QQing about HMG dmg here) why in the hell is the hmg dmg so low?
balance? thats not balance. thats crippling a gun (and user) from doing his intended role. minimum range and crazy bullet spread, so that 2000rps really doesnt mean too much, does it?

the range from the last build (i dont remember wut the dmg was, so i wont comment on that) was ideal for our role, even with the slow turn speed.

some of u ppl are worried about the heavy being a game dominator or some ish. well, lemme tell ya...if u cant figure out how to kill a walking heavy, then u need to get killed by its HMG.
point defender, area denial, CQC, frontal assault support......those are the roles of heavies. thats wut we are supposed to b good at.
not even barely adequate, tbh. and its not the suit (although i would love having a equipment slot so i can carry uplinks. yaknow, being a point defender and all. jus sayin) its the effin gun. our options are limited as is, so make the HMG what it should be.

/rant

^^yes
however, the gun does great damage! beacuase of the rpm. although i feel it should do about 97% damage to shields, because it is minmintar (which is better than the current damage to shields). nonetheless, the range must be buffed to AR range or even 98% AR range. a real lmg has the same range but more power than an AR. so how much more so should an HMG have the range but more power than an AR!

the heavy running 15% faster, with a 10% increase in turning speed will really help heavies to actually be able to play the game.

i also sugguest that the accuracy after the counter wieghts are in place be increased. by the time the counter weights are in place i have already spent 100 bullets, and 2000rpm you could end up reloading fast because of the high inaccuracy. the reload time is bad enough. even with the reload skill that lowers the time. hell, i'd reload abit longer if i could be more accurate. i'd be more motivation to spec into the reload skill

Heavies aren't meant to be a heavy version of the assault.

Heavies are meant to defend a position - they exceed as a defensive role. Set up round a corner and anything coming around that corner is dead. On Manus Peak, I used a heavy to great effect defending point C, despite coming under heavy assault, with bombardment from a railgun installation, too. Most assaults were too cautious to come close, and those that did I ripped to shreds in seconds.

Also i think the real fix to the heavy is to give it an L slot on top of the S and H so i can switch to a AR when out in the open.

Something you people should know.
The heavy was SUPPOSED to go toe to toe with a tank.
But with that much eHP, when he was given the HMG he was the ultimate anti infantry weapon and there was no reason to go assault.
So they nerfed both the heavy and HMG.
CCP said it themselves, the current heavy + HMG is a defensive class.

They are planning on bringing back the old Heavy with tons of eHP that can go toe to toe with a tank, but it will probably have restrictions like no HMG allowed.

^^that is stupid... because to have an HMG you eed a heavy class, and lvl5 weaponry, then all the extra SP into a weapon that you can not use it BS.

the HMG needs to do full auto AR damage with the same range (or 5% less) as a full auto AR,

the long reload, over heating, and dispersion automatically balances it out. hell, another decrease in dispersion may help too.

because right now, you can do all the same stuff with a militia AR that you can do with a PROTO heavy HMG. its BS.





(before you start talking about raw dps, dnt forget to factor in optimal range and the dispersion calculation for the effective dps of a weapon. dispersion reduction = dps - (dps*n%); where n% is the dispersion percentage. since the HMG has about 35% dispersion, the equation is:

dps - (dps * 35%) = effective dps

to calculate, its dps at various ranges, you need the damage reduction number per meter, and to multiply it by the meters past that point. therefore, if lets say the Assault heavy machine gun:

460 - (460*35%) - 20hp reduction/m * m = DPS past optimal at m
where m = meters

so,
460 - 161 - 20red/m * 10m = 460-161-200 = 99

so past the optimal range of the AHMG (the optimal range is alittle over 10m right now), the AMHG is doing this much damage.

so at 20m range my dps is 99.
at 20m im getting out gunned by a militia AR. thats not cool.

I think the heavy should be at a significant advantage in a CQB, I don't think the game should simply give them the kill on a silver platter.

Some of the buffs you guys are proposing would do exactly that.

here are the problems with a HMG Heavy as I see it
It takes an hour to punch through shields...seriously why?
Assaults and Logis can stack mods to get Armor/Shields really close to a Heavy if not any higher. That is just unacceptable. They are essentially a Heavy without the trade offs of one.
Heavy has no "High risk high reward" feeling to it. Heavies should be fearded CQB fighters in the heat of the battle but instead they made Heavy stuff so expensive that you prefer to sit back and do point defense. Before you tell me "ZOMG DAT IS HEVY'S ROOLE ONLY DEFEND1!1!! HTFU STAHP QQ'ING" I thought CCP wanted us to be able to have a ton of customization options, no? that seems to be the case with every suit...well except Heavies. I'm actually fine if Heavy+HMG is meant to be a primarily CQB point defense thing but If HMG is indeed a weapon that excels at short-mid range than why make turn speed on Heavies so slow? did CCP forget that we need to track our targets?
Why the dps of ARs is very similar to the dps of HMG in HMG's optimal range?! when are we going to have optimal ranges on weapons? I'm not talking about the stupid "hard cap" range, I'm talking about a mechanic that allows us to do more damage close up. I don't know how to explain it, but HMG needs to be more effective than an ordinary AR or SMG in CQB.

As far as i can tell, about all you can do with a HMG is find the most defensible point on a skirmish, and stay there. I had good success doing that, but its boring. ALso it leave your front line a guy short, its not always necessary to play Def all match on a point no one is trying to take.

The Assault HMG is by far superior, takes away a bit of that range disadvantage, but still you arent going to do anything vs TACs. Other than die.

I wasted 4m sps on the heavy suit, thinking i may try forge guns instead.

Balancing on range is CCPs core problem with the weapons. That we're talking about the range of projectile weapons and saying things like "20m" or "30m" is patently ridiculous....but people forget and get blinders on. I had them on for a while too.

What you say is correct. These weapons should all have the same total range. There is no damage falloff needed, as weapon handling should be the mitigating factor (an HMG kicking like a mule will prevent the weapon from being highly effective at range).

Attempting to balance on range throws every other attribute of all weapons off.

here are the problems with a HMG Heavy as I see it
It takes an hour to punch through shields...seriously why?
Assaults and Logis can stack mods to get Armor/Shields really close to a Heavy if not any higher. That is just unacceptable. They are essentially a Heavy without the trade offs of one.
Heavy has no "High risk high reward" feeling to it. Heavies should be fearded CQB fighters in the heat of the battle but instead they made Heavy stuff so expensive that you prefer to sit back and do point defense. Before you tell me "ZOMG DAT IS HEVY'S ROOLE ONLY DEFEND1!1!! HTFU STAHP QQ'ING" I thought CCP wanted us to be able to have a ton of customization options, no? that seems to be the case with every suit...well except Heavies. I'm actually fine if Heavy+HMG is meant to be a primarily CQB point defense thing but If HMG is indeed a weapon that excels at short-mid range than why make turn speed on Heavies so slow? did CCP forget that we need to track our targets?
Why the dps of ARs is very similar to the dps of HMG in HMG's optimal range?! when are we going to have optimal ranges on weapons? I'm not talking about the stupid "hard cap" range, I'm talking about a mechanic that allows us to do more damage close up. I don't know how to explain it, but HMG needs to be more effective than an ordinary AR or SMG in CQB.

^^this. couldnt have sad it better myself.

People seem to be a bit confused on this thread, and as i stopped reading after page 4, this might have been answered. (if so, my apologies)

The thread asks whats the purpose of the HMG is, not the heavy dropsuit. So half the posts i read didn't even understand the question to begin with.

The HMG has massive amounts of ammo and insane RoF which makes it particularly effective at suppression.

An HMG itself has limited range (even when they fix the dispersion for it, it will still be limited) so it will excel in CQC areas, such as cities.

The turning speed with an HMG is also slow, so firing down long hallways are murder holes(hallways??) when an HMG is concerned.

Taking all this into consideration, the HMG seems far more effective at point defense then anything else you can use it for.

Does that stop it from being effective at throwing suppression fire onto enemies at an objective, while your squad picks em off? No. Does it prevent your ability to hop in an LAV, ride up to raspberries and proceed to jump out and shred their suits to pieces? No.

But clearly, the role the HMG excels at over anything else ; point defense.

Heavies and HMG's go hand in hand.

HMG's aren not good for suppression as they lack the range to suppress anyone more than 10 meters away.

HMG may seem like a good CQC weapon, but the terrible turning speed means a scout with a shotgun can just run circles around you.

If a weapon is only good at one thing (and that thing almost never happens - no one is stupid enough to go down corridors these days) something has gone wrong.

I don't buy this suppression line at all, honestly.

It only looks like it has a lot of ammo on paper. You burn through it fast thanks to that RoF. And then you don't have your own nanohives to replace it.


Who in their right mind is gonna bother "suppressing" a hallway, just so they can run out of ammo and then get caught with their pants down as they attempt to reload for the next 8 seconds? Right...

True, they go hand in hand. But the thread clearly says HMG. Bringing up advantages and disadvantages of the suit are an entirely different topic, considering that the heavy suit does not have the HMG as a requisite.

Either you have never played using an HMG effectively, or you don't quite understand what "suppression" means. I can walk near any objective then start unloading, and watch as they either try to shoot me and die...or hide behind cover until a chance presents itself where they think they can retaliate against me. Sometimes, rarely, they flat out run.

Seems you have a problem with rock-paper-scissors. The "terrible" turning speed has given scouts a chance to actually kill a heavy using an HMG. And they still have to work for it (at least with me). I'm perfectly fine with dominating in CQC as rock, while being aware that paper could start shooting me in the back.

Weapons excelling in one area, doesn't mean that's the only way you can effectively use the weapon. I use the HMG for many of my skirmish situations. I jump in LAV's, head to sparsely protected null cannons, kill the 1-3 raspberries there and hack it. I act as the wall in my squad, soaking up the bullets to protect my squad with me firing into the enemy crowd ,as we push from cover cover towards the objective as a logistics keeps me alive. Sometimes i even feel the need to rambo, which will usually yield positive results.

You have a very skewed perception of the HMG.

With crap for range and crap for accuracy it's supposed to be a mid to mainly close range weapon right?

In a game where any given map is at least 80-90% open field where any other weapon with better range and accuracy can simply shred you before they're even in your range?

Add in the fact that thanks to pitiful per shot damage you're expected to keep a lock on enemies who thanks to horrible movement mechanics can jerk back and forth bouncing off the walls ensuring that you can't even drop their shields as they drop grenades on you?

I always see people saying "Well you have to play defensively!" How exactly? Hide behind that one stack of crates over by the objective? Stick with other players where the slow moving guy that can't fire back yet totally isn't the easy target?

As I've played I haven't seen that many HMG users, I'd always figured it was people shying away from the extra investments needed to unlock heavy armors and weapons, but it's more because anyone that gets tricked into believing there's any actual balance in this game sadly goes back to using an assault rifle build and eats the lost SP isn't it?

Heavies shouldn't need logistics to function properly, but that's effectively the situation we're in.

Heavies shouldn't need to load their high slots with damage mods in order to output acceptable damage levels, but that's the situation we're in.

HMGs shouldn't do 'comparable' damage to an AR, because as one of the posters above said - you sacrifice lots in order to field the gun. But that's the situation we're in.




Balance.

Heavies shouldn't need logistics to function properly, but that's effectively the situation we're in.

Heavies shouldn't need to load their high slots with damage mods in order to output acceptable damage levels, but that's the situation we're in.

HMGs shouldn't do 'comparable' damage to an AR, because as one of the posters above said - you sacrifice lots in order to field the gun. But that's the situation we're in.

Let's go with the range argument for now then.

Why is the HMG a flame thrower, and not an HMG?

CCP designed it to be "different" than the usual HMG in that it is a CQC weapon, yet they have structured it in a way that does not compliment this function at all. Heavies are too slow to dictate range, yet their success depends on it. Too slow to turn, yet again, their success in CQC depends on it. Reloading is also too slow to be effective in a lone-wolf point defense situation, yet this is what they are supposedly designed for.

The entire concept is full of contradictions. It doesn't work. At least, not when your opponent is worth a damn.


Yet, if the HMG was designed properly as a weapon with great range, it would work far better. Slow turning does not impose much restriction against ranged targets. It actually helps more with precision aiming, which is what is necessary from range. Furthermore, the Heavy could still fulfill the role of "point defense" but instead do so by keeping enemies at bay from range. Their slower reload also makes much more sense when there is a greater buffer distance between themselves and the enemy to start with.

Let's go with the range argument for now then.

Why is the HMG a flame thrower, and not an HMG?

CCP designed it to be "different" than the usual HMG in that it is a CQC weapon, yet they have structured it in a way that does not compliment this function at all. Heavies are too slow to dictate range, yet their success depends on it. Too slow to turn, yet again, their success in CQC depends on it. Reloading is also too slow to be effective in a lone-wolf point defense situation, yet this is what they are supposedly designed for.

The entire concept is full of contradictions. It doesn't work. At least, not when your opponent is worth a damn.


Yet, if the HMG was designed properly as a weapon with great range, it would work far better. Slow turning does not impose much restriction against ranged targets. It actually helps more with precision aiming, which is what is necessary from range. Furthermore, the Heavy could still fulfill the role of "point defense" but instead do so by keeping enemies at bay from range. Their slower reload also makes much more sense when there is a greater buffer distance between themselves and the enemy to start with.

I'm beating a dead horse, but here we are again.

HMGs do not do "comparable" damage to an AR. They do a hell of a lot more damage than an AR.

Specifically, 29% more DPS than AR, which is a very big difference in this game. The only possible complaint about HMG right now is range. Complaints about damage are simply ignorant.

You are so wrong it's comical.

You are so wrong it's comical.

STD HMG -600dps +10% = 660dps + 15% procficiency = 760.35 +18% (2 complex damage mods) = 897.2 dps - 35% dispersion = 583.2dps at optimal range.
past optimal range damage fall off is almost 20 damage per meter past optimal, (i.e. 10 m eters past optimal is a 200damage reduction) and then there is the hard cap.

militia AR - 425dps +10% = 467.5dps + 15% proficiency = 537.625 + 18% (2 complex damage mods) = 634.4 dps - 3% dispersion = 615.4dps at optimal range
past optimal damage reduction is near 6-7 i may be wrong though.

remember this was a comparison of the militia AR to a STD HMG. the proto HMG is only 1.8 damage per shot higher, where as proto ARs increase by 2 or 3 more damage per shot. the disperity is evident.

Here's the problem with your math:

DPS is a statistic anyone can verify. Your figures for dispersion are something you made up.

I can just as easily state that dispersion for HMG is 15-20%, and then the HMG does 717.76 DPS at optimal, still beating the AR.

I can also say (as subjectively as your guess at dispersion numbers) that there are no dispersion effects whatsoever if your target fills your reticule, and the HMG at optimal spanks the crap out of AR as long as you're good enough to keep your target in your sights.

As for tracking: tweak your settings. If I can keep my sights on a bunny-hopping proto Assault, you can too.



I'm sorry, but you're looking at this incorrectly, too. Proto HMG does 10% more damage than basic HMG. Proto Assault does 10% more damage than base Assault. The DPS increase is the same. Check your numbers.

I won't comment on range, because here we actually agree. It's the only legitimate complaint for HMG at the moment, and it'll be interesting to see what changes in 1.2.

This... tried to say this already but i go from experiance not numbers lol.

35% dispertion might be right... but that isnt a direct reduction in dps! If i put the barrels of my gun and plant them on someones face dispertion means squat... if i then move back a meter im still hitting for full... 10m sure, i might get the odd stray bullet... 20m, i might start losing some dps... 30m, missing more... 40m now theres some notable loss...

but never have i lost 35% of my dps... not until theyre out past my optimal and my recitle is twice the size of the target anyway lol and of course that reduces after firing a bit... more if i aim down the "sights"

http://i.imgur.com/Dh2wv7o.jpg refer to this to see that range is an issue 2km plus for HEAVY MACHINE GUNS ours goes 30m~ and does shite damage and loses a lot of dps due to that dispersion.

(.50 cal, 20mm, and 30mm, are all HMGs for those who do not know, and as the in game HMG looks acts it like the 20mm)