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Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
564
   |
Posted - 2013.05.19 17:38:00 -
[31] - Quote
Never said heavies were perfect in their current iteration. Only said that heavies are best used in a defensive role. Heavy machine guns are almost exclusively used, in both modern warfare and in most games, as a defensive tool. For example, WW1. Heavy machine guns were set up to defend trenches, rather than assault the enemy trenches. WW2. Setting up a machine gun took time, even the lighter, support ones. The larger ones (Browning MG) took two men to set up and use.
These heavy machine guns take on a different role when mounted on a vehicle. When used by infantry, it's primarily defensive. Not offensive.
My understanding of the way things stand currently, is that all weapons are having the hard cap on ranges taken off and having falloff damage applied, when CCP has this system ready. Which is hopefully soon. This gives the HMG more range without dealing the same damage at 5m it would at 50m.
I say again... Heavies with HMG's are meant to be used for defense. In the future, their role will also spread to suppression, when above range fix comes into play. |
slypie11
Planetary Response Organisation
291
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 17:47:00 -
[32] - Quote
slypie11 wrote:Laheon wrote:SoTa ReGnUM PoP wrote:... "My ideal one would be a slow moving tank" Unfortunately, should you be granted the role you want (i.e. slow, but hard to kill) you would be a one man team. Not great for balance, hey? For example, back in closed beta, I remember heavies running around with AR's. That was literally the only thing on the field. This allowed them to "move the front line forward". So much so that the assault was completely replaced. Heavies cannot stand toe to toe with tanks. From dust514.com, "The Heavy dropsuit is a second-generation solution designed to withstand concentrated small arms fire and protect the wearer from the concussive, thermal, and impact forces of low-grade explosives." As far as I know, (apart from TAR's) they do that role quite well. Heavies ARE meant for point defense. Any other role for them would be OP, as they would be walking powerhouses. They're slow on foot, which means that they require assistance getting to the battlefield, but once they get into CQC they excel. Jumping from a dropship into CQC, or spawning at a drop uplink at an objective when its about to be overrun, are ideal solutions for a heavy. Walking up to the front line then punching a hole through it is not. That's best suited for an assault. Not exactly. With more armor than shields, all heavies, no matter how decent their HMG, needs a logi to repair them. They also need assault buddies to keep enemies(especially shotty scouts) from getting them from behind because of their horrendous turning speed. Heavies will never be a one man team, and HMGs having decent range will not change that.
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Kai Wulf
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 18:15:00 -
[33] - Quote
Laheon wrote:Never said heavies were perfect in their current iteration. Only said that heavies are best used in a defensive role. Heavy machine guns are almost exclusively used, in both modern warfare and in most games, as a defensive tool. For example, WW1. Heavy machine guns were set up to defend trenches, rather than assault the enemy trenches. WW2. Setting up a machine gun took time, even the lighter, support ones. The larger ones (Browning MG) took two men to set up and use.
These heavy machine guns take on a different role when mounted on a vehicle. When used by infantry, it's primarily defensive. Not offensive.
My understanding of the way things stand currently, is that all weapons are having the hard cap on ranges taken off and having falloff damage applied, when CCP has this system ready. Which is hopefully soon. This gives the HMG more range without dealing the same damage at 5m it would at 50m.
I say again... Heavies with HMG's are meant to be used for defense. In the future, their role will also spread to suppression, when above range fix comes into play.
I tend to agree. Even though Sgt. J Basilone carried the M1919A4 and fired it from the hip (as seen in the HBO series The Pacific), it was an extreme (and bloody heroic) use of the weapon. I believe CCP have opted for the same fire from the hip type weapon, but want to keep the defensive/suppressive role.
I'm just not sure they are actually achieving that goal both in terms of the class and weapon itself, as well as the other elements of the game such as the map styles and structures. |
Zyrus Amalomyn
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres
153
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 19:32:00 -
[34] - Quote
You use heavies on two ways:
Defensively, you put up a wall against the more versatile assaults.
Or Offensively. Use LAVs with a team in support to break into that objective.
You are not an open field Juggernaut. Stop thinking like this is COD and start thinking tactically. |
crazy space 1
Krullefor Organization
Minmatar Republic
1203
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 19:51:00 -
[35] - Quote
There are lots of areas on maps where a heavy is useful. YES you'll die if you run into open field in a heavy, welcome to war.
Defend the points in the buildings. Also when spawning in on a contested point in a heavy is your best bet for kills/survival. put one point into HMGs and heavies. |
Ignatius Crumwald
Eyniletti Rangers
Minmatar Republic
478
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 20:09:00 -
[36] - Quote
Heavies aren't complaining that they die open field. They're complaining that they cannot compete in areas where they are supposed to excel because the suit and weapons have been over-nerfed to the point of making them uncompetitive VS assault in those areas where you claim they are supposed to be superior.
I can do everything a heavy is supposed to do better with an assault or a scout and have more SP to spend elswhere, so why even have them at all?
If the devs aren't willing to let them excel in anything other than being big slow targets that take 6-8 extra bullets to kill, I actually have to recommend that CCP look into dropping the heavy suits and heavy weapons all together.
A little extra damage drop-off range on the HMG ain't gonna do ish. |
hooc order
Deep Space Republic
Gentlemen's Agreement
90
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 20:13:00 -
[37] - Quote
Mike Poole wrote:With crap for range and crap for accuracy it's supposed to be a mid to mainly close range weapon right?
In a game where any given map is at least 80-90% open field where any other weapon with better range and accuracy can simply shred you before they're even in your range?
Add in the fact that thanks to pitiful per shot damage you're expected to keep a lock on enemies who thanks to horrible movement mechanics can jerk back and forth bouncing off the walls ensuring that you can't even drop their shields as they drop grenades on you?
I always see people saying "Well you have to play defensively!" How exactly? Hide behind that one stack of crates over by the objective? Stick with other players where the slow moving guy that can't fire back yet totally isn't the easy target?
As I've played I haven't seen that many HMG users, I'd always figured it was people shying away from the extra investments needed to unlock heavy armors and weapons, but it's more because anyone that gets tricked into believing there's any actual balance in this game sadly goes back to using an assault rifle build and eats the lost SP isn't it?
The point of it is to make all the crappy farmville in space players feel all warm and fuzzy when their god mode 10 million SP carry them to wins.
If weapons like the HMG worked then the crap EvE players would die and they would lose that warm fuzzy feeling they get. |
SoTa of PoP
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
324
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 20:15:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ignatius Crumwald wrote:Heavies aren't complaining that they die open field. They're complaining that they cannot compete in areas where they are supposed to excel because the suit and weapons have been over-nerfed to the point of making them uncompetitive VS assault in those areas where you claim they are supposed to be superior.
I can do everything a heavy is supposed to do better with an assault or a scout and have more SP to spend elswhere, so why even have them at all?
If the devs aren't willing to let them excel in anything other than being big slow targets that take 6-8 extra bullets to kill, I actually have to recommend that CCP look into dropping the heavy suits and heavy weapons all together.
A little extra damage drop-off range on the HMG ain't gonna do ish.
This ^ |
Mr Sprinklez
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 20:33:00 -
[39] - Quote
I haven't been playing for long, but if any of you have seen me with my HMG, you know this thread is a load of bull. The HMG is powerful to anyone who can become accustomed to its range, anyone that says otherwise spends too much time with a TAC and wants everything to be an Iwin button. |
Ignatius Crumwald
Eyniletti Rangers
Minmatar Republic
478
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 20:50:00 -
[40] - Quote
Mr Sprinklez wrote:I haven't been playing for long,
Exactly. Most of the noob heavy users don't have a clue at the complete lack of potential their chosen class has VS the assault or scout classes because your handicap forces you to adapt a playstyle that is generally successful anyway - corner camping and ambushing.
Some of us have been here bashing our head against a wall for over a year about this.
The proto HMG used to do 30 DMG per shot with the heavy suit turning speed equal to all other suits - and even then it still wasn't the insta win button that everyone thinks it was or fears will emerge. |
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Mike Poole
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2013.05.19 21:10:00 -
[41] - Quote
Mr Sprinklez wrote:I haven't been playing for long, but if any of you have seen me with my HMG, you know this thread is a load of bull. The HMG is powerful to anyone who can become accustomed to its range, anyone that says otherwise spends too much time with a TAC and wants everything to be an Iwin button.
The only time the HMG is powerful is if you're up against someone that doesn't know how easy you are to counter.
The weapon's damage is dependent on sustained fire and weakened by distance. Anyone that knows what they're doing is going to put as much distance as they can and use cover to kill your damage.
Unless you're able to catch someone entirely by surprise you're either going to be outpaced or out maneuvered by more mobile dropsuits.
No one is asking for an "I win button" here but when a lone HMG user runs into a lone scout/assault you would expect that the one with the theoretically superior defense and firepower should win out but you don't end up with that because the increased mobility coupled with crappy hit detection and overall spastic movement hands the advantage to the scout/assault nine times out of ten. |
Turkevich
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 21:10:00 -
[42] - Quote
I made a heavy on an alt with 1.5 mil SPs and I was shredding people with a HMG. I usually get more kill assists than kills but that's fine with me. People usually run for cover when they see a heavy round a corner and you can use this to your advantage. At one point in a match my HMG was out of ammo so I switched to a SMG and waded into a room with 5-6 enemies. I killed a few and drove the rest off with a SMG. I really enjoy playing on that alt. |
Blammmo
Better Hide R Die
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 21:16:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mike Poole wrote:With crap for range and crap for accuracy it's supposed to be a mid to mainly close range weapon right?
In a game where any given map is at least 80-90% open field where any other weapon with better range and accuracy can simply shred you before they're even in your range?
Add in the fact that thanks to pitiful per shot damage you're expected to keep a lock on enemies who thanks to horrible movement mechanics can jerk back and forth bouncing off the walls ensuring that you can't even drop their shields as they drop grenades on you?
I always see people saying "Well you have to play defensively!" How exactly? Hide behind that one stack of crates over by the objective? Stick with other players where the slow moving guy that can't fire back yet totally isn't the easy target?
As I've played I haven't seen that many HMG users, I'd always figured it was people shying away from the extra investments needed to unlock heavy armors and weapons, but it's more because anyone that gets tricked into believing there's any actual balance in this game sadly goes back to using an assault rifle build and eats the lost SP isn't it?
Your doing it wrong... |
Mr Sprinklez
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 21:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ignatius Crumwald wrote:Mr Sprinklez wrote:I haven't been playing for long, Exactly. Most of the noob heavy users don't have a clue at the complete lack of potential their chosen class has VS the assault or scout classes because your handicap forces you to adapt a playstyle that is generally successful anyway - corner camping and ambushing. Some of us have been here bashing our head against a wall for over a year about this. The proto HMG used to do 30 DMG per shot with the heavy suit turning speed equal to all other suits - and even then it still wasn't the insta win button that everyone thinks it was or fears will emerge.
I have been playing since Replication, I am only new as heavy user with this alt. Maybe you just don't understand the large potential of the heavy suit because you have been playing assault too long? My STD HMG tears proto users to shreds, who were, btw, the ones that were corner camping, I was the one running in lighting a fire under their asses.
EDIT: Do you even realize how stupid you sounded? I don't understand the lack of potential because I'm a noob? The one thing newbies are good at is singling out the most OP weapon and overusing it. That's why there is an overabundance of TACs, they lack skill and make up for it with gear. |
Mike Poole
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 21:21:00 -
[45] - Quote
Blammmo wrote:
Your doing it wrong...
You seem to be posting wrong, usually a comment like that is followed by content... opinions... facts... anything at all really to provide something other than an as of yet undeserved feeling of condescension.
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Mortedeamor
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 21:50:00 -
[46] - Quote
to take up sp and isk duh |
Bubba Brown
Militaires Sans Jeux
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 23:46:00 -
[47] - Quote
SoTa of PoP wrote:
yessss
Please god fix the turn speed already CCP - are we going to wait another 6 months like we did before you fixed heavy protosuit prices?
CCP hates heavies - the proof is in the HMG and racial suits.
well if you go straight for proto suits and stack a CRAP TON of shields and stuff, heavy suits are very beefy.
just don't use an HMG, a tac ar paired with a good smg works far far better
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Ignatius Crumwald
Eyniletti Rangers
Minmatar Republic
478
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 20:36:00 -
[48] - Quote
Mr Sprinklez wrote:Ignatius Crumwald wrote:[quote=Mr Sprinklez]I haven't been playing for long, Exactly. Most of the noob heavy users don't have a clue at the complete lack of potential their chosen class has VS the assault or scout classes because your handicap forces you to adapt a playstyle that is generally successful anyway - corner camping and ambushing. Some of us have been here bashing our head against a wall for over a year about this. The proto HMG used to do 30 DMG per shot with the heavy suit turning speed equal to all other suits - and even then it still wasn't the insta win button that everyone thinks it was or fears will emerge.
I have been playing since Replication, I am only new as heavy user with this alt. Maybe you just don't understand the large potential of the heavy suit because you have been playing assault too long? My STD HMG tears proto users to shreds, who were, btw, the ones that were corner camping, I was the one running in lighting a fire under their asses.
EDIT: Do you even realize how stupid you sounded? I don't understand the lack of potential because I'm a noob? The one thing newbies are good at is singling out the most OP weapon and overusing it. That's why there is an overabundance of TACs, they lack skill and make up for it with gear. |
D legendary hero
One-Armed Bandits
Unclaimed.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 18:22:00 -
[49] - Quote
Mike Poole wrote:With crap for range and crap for accuracy it's supposed to be a mid to mainly close range weapon right?
In a game where any given map is at least 80-90% open field where any other weapon with better range and accuracy can simply shred you before they're even in your range?
Add in the fact that thanks to pitiful per shot damage you're expected to keep a lock on enemies who thanks to horrible movement mechanics can jerk back and forth bouncing off the walls ensuring that you can't even drop their shields as they drop grenades on you?
I always see people saying "Well you have to play defensively!" How exactly? Hide behind that one stack of crates over by the objective? Stick with other players where the slow moving guy that can't fire back yet totally isn't the easy target?
As I've played I haven't seen that many HMG users, I'd always figured it was people shying away from the extra investments needed to unlock heavy armors and weapons, but it's more because anyone that gets tricked into believing there's any actual balance in this game sadly goes back to using an assault rifle build and eats the lost SP isn't it?
Cosgar wrote:Jotun Hiem wrote:The damage for the STD is now a pretty awesome 18 damage per shot (I'm not exaggerating. 18 damage at 2000 RPM tears people apart), but the hard-cap on the range is still there and the damage falloff is still just as brutal. ARs and the HMG need to trade range falloffs to be honest. Phased plasma shouldn't be getting more incidental damage than projectile ammunition.
inaddition, to be hoest i also feel that the heavy suit should get 25% more shield and armor and that the HMG (minmintar) should do about 10% more damage to shileds than it is currently doing. it shouldb e less effective hat a hybrid, but still close. why? because i have had shield tankers withd uvoule tacticals charge right into my gun fire one v one and win out. mind you i have all my points i the hmg proficiency and a damage modifier, and proto heavy machine gun. so thiss houldnt happen.
the hmg balances itself, with having low mobility (so when people throw grenades at you you cant escape), and a highr eload time.
i have had people charge rightat me, and when they get weak us runaway, andi 'm so slowt hati cant finish them off. Sincethe machines creation (in real life) people couldn't just charge up the hill and survive. all i'm asking is that the weapon be allowedt o do what it is supposed to do.
to be honest the hmg should have just as much range if not more than an AR, the down side should be the dispersion at those ranges would make accuracy a problem. but that would be balaced. |
martinofski
Rebelles A Quebec
Orion Empire
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
Heavy + HMG :
Pros
- HMG okay Damage output (around 650)
- High HP, around 1500 if equipped with 2 complex shield extender and 3 complex plates).
Cons
-slow suit(easy target)
-big hitbox(easy target)
- HMG dispersion
- Low range
- Bigger scanning profile
- Slow turning speed
- Need a logi repairer, or repair module instead of plates
- Definately can't strafe
- rarely achieve headshot with most bullets
- Can't carry anything
- Can't jump
Assault/Logi + AR :
Pros
- AR and TAR good DPS, 360 DPS and let say around 700 DPS for guy that can click fast enough.
- Medium-High HP, around 800-900 if equipped with 4-5 complex shield extender
- fast
- can Strafe with ease.
- Can carry equipment, which mean nanites, scanners, nanohives, droplink
-medium hit box
-higher headshot bonus
- Can aim (with a sight)
- Long range
- Jump well enough to go over barriers
Cons...
-Less speed than scout
-Less HP than heavy
Help me here,because I have no kitten clue what else. I know i run heavy so my analysis might be a bit wrong, but I don,t mind people adding to this. |
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Chinduko
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
94
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Posted - 2013.05.23 19:27:00 -
[51] - Quote
On the standard suit lvl, the heavy with HMG isn't too bad but when you more to proto competition facing AR users with suits with 600 shield and 3-4-- armor, the heavy become obsolete. The HMG simply isn't able to get through their shields. You can use an AR but then, you might as well wear an assault or logi suit with high shields to serve the purpose of defense. |
Lance 2ballzStrong
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
1870
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:44:00 -
[52] - Quote
Mr Sprinklez wrote:I haven't been playing for long, but if any of you have seen me with my HMG, you know this thread is a load of bull. The HMG is powerful to anyone who can become accustomed to its range, anyone that says otherwise spends too much time with a TAC and wants everything to be an Iwin button.
lol
*sigh*... people and their judging of weapons in pub games against noobs. This community will NEVER learn. Thanks to CCP's data collecting in pubs, they saw how easy it was too mow down noobs using militia suits running straight at heavies, so they thought a nerf was needed.
People need to think OUTSIDE THE BOX. People don't pub 24/7 against noobs who don't know their arse from their elbow, and it's only when you play against good people you'll see how WEAK the class is. |
iceyburnz
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
467
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:46:00 -
[53] - Quote
People who use HMGs these days often do so poorly.
HMG is a defensive weapon.
You take your heavy suit and you move in once an objective is taken and guard it with your life. |
Dale Templar
Regime Of Shadow Marines
Alpha Wolf Pack
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:48:00 -
[54] - Quote
+1 On the HMG being defensive, if I'm trying to capture a spot, and there's more than one heavy with a HMG, you can pretty much kiss it goodbye unless you're aided by a decent sniper or a barrage of grenades. |
Lance 2ballzStrong
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
1871
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:48:00 -
[55] - Quote
iceyburnz wrote:People who use HMGs these days often do so poorly.
HMG is a defensive weapon.
You take your heavy suit and you move in once an objective is taken and guard it with your life.
Oh? Then please tell me good sir, how is it a "defensive weapon" for CQC, when we have such a poor turning speed? Ironic no?
We can't track people in CQC cuz we're too slow. Yeah that sounds about right. |
Muramasa Armads
Defensores Doctrina
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 21:15:00 -
[56] - Quote
I personally have always wanted to Heavy class to be a CQC nightmare. I think the Heavy should be a class that has one dominating strength and multiple weaknesses. It should be a juggernaut that excels at close range and destroys everything, but it should be a class that is completely worthless at mid to long range. That would be the trade-off for having such lethal ability at close range. I would also give HMGGÇÖs insane power and burn up. I have always been annoyed that CCP has allowed this pitiful burn up mechanic to exist and it allows any scrub heavy to hold the trigger down to get kills. Heavy should be a skillful class that is a high risk and high reward weapon. Maxing out HMG operation should not mean that you never burn up and in fact the burn up should be incredible to the point that you have to grab level 5 in order to somewhat control it. I also would significantly increase the turning speed of the Heavy because itGÇÖs a joke right now. I have seen rail guns turn faster. Heavy should be a class that you have to strategically place in order for it to be effective and it should require patience from those that use it.
To those that want heavy to be used from a defensive position. Be careful what you wish for because if CCP goes ahead and gives suppression mechanics to heavies then youGÇÖre in for a rude awakening. I come from BF3 and while suppression is great in concept itGÇÖs terrible in practice. Think of the suppression a Mass driver inflicts and multiply it by 10 because that is what a HMG will do if given suppression mechanics. If you think spray and pray was annoying now wait until a HMG kills you because a Heavy is literally holding down the button with 425 bullets of suppression fury.
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Synthetic Surrogate
Venilen Eugenics Agency
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 21:26:00 -
[57] - Quote
Turkevich wrote:I made a heavy on an alt with 1.5 mil SPs and I was shredding people with a HMG. I usually get more kill assists than kills but that's fine with me. People usually run for cover when they see a heavy round a corner and you can use this to your advantage. At one point in a match my HMG was out of ammo so I switched to a SMG and waded into a room with 5-6 enemies. I killed a few and drove the rest off with a SMG. I really enjoy playing on that alt.
This.
I have a heavy with 1.3 million SP.
I get more kills with it than my assault with 4.3 million SP.
Perhaps the OP is trying to run a heavy as an assault? DERP
And for the poster that said scouts can do the heavies job better.. you gotta be kidding me right? |
Ignatius Crumwald
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
505
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 21:40:00 -
[58] - Quote
Synthetic Surrogate wrote:Turkevich wrote:I made a heavy on an alt with 1.5 mil SPs and I was shredding people with a HMG. I usually get more kill assists than kills but that's fine with me. People usually run for cover when they see a heavy round a corner and you can use this to your advantage. At one point in a match my HMG was out of ammo so I switched to a SMG and waded into a room with 5-6 enemies. I killed a few and drove the rest off with a SMG. I really enjoy playing on that alt. This. I have a heavy with 1.3 million SP. I get more kills with it than my assault with 4.3 million SP. Perhaps the OP is trying to run a heavy as an assault? DERP And for the poster that said scouts can do the heavies job better.. you gotta be kidding me right?
I'm not kidding. I proved it like 5 builds ago. the HMG is a joke. the heavy class is trash.
I will kill your heavy, or any proto heavy in my 0 SP investment totally free sneeze in my direction dragonfly scout build - all day. Solo. I'll even reload right in your face.
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THUNDERGROOVE
ZionTCD
Unclaimed.
53
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Posted - 2013.05.23 21:54:00 -
[59] - Quote
Salient0ne wrote:Also i think the real fix to the heavy is to give it an L slot on top of the S and H so i can switch to a AR when out in the open.
Heh. No. If you use a good enough HMG you can still do pretty good in the open as long as your squad is backing you. |
Polish Hammer
Conspiratus Immortalis
444
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 22:00:00 -
[60] - Quote
SoTa ReGnUM PoP wrote:Laheon wrote:Heavies aren't meant to be a heavy version of the assault.
Heavies are meant to defend a position - they exceed as a defensive role. Set up round a corner and anything coming around that corner is dead. On Manus Peak, I used a heavy to great effect defending point C, despite coming under heavy assault, with bombardment from a railgun installation, too. Most assaults were too cautious to come close, and those that did I ripped to shreds in seconds. Heavies were meant to stand toe and toe with tanks if we use your logic. Where the hell is that? Please - stop telling a class how to play.
+1 |
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