That's just it though. You have to or you lose to the attacker who brings high end gear. Using milita gear on a 200K ISK clone is like fitting a Sagaris with militia mods. False economy. If your clone costs far more than your fitting you aren't protecting it well enough.

That's just it though. You have to or you lose to the attacker who brings high end gear. Using milita gear on a 200K ISK clone is like fitting a Sagaris with militia mods. False economy. If your clone costs far more than your fitting you aren't protecting it well enough.

If you're losing that much isk in corp matches, you need to realise your corp probably isn't ready for corp battles and will be even less ready for PC unless you get a lot better before it comes in. Seeing as you're in Tritan, I can't see how this could be the case but I rarely play against you guys, so couldn't say for sure.

The costs involved are going to mean people will have to play carefully and strategically instead of just running and gunning like teams of rambos. If the attacker is bringing in high end gear, they also have a lot to lose in the battle, so it's a double edged sword for all involved.

I'm speaking in general here, not about Tritan Industries. This is a discussion about the mechanics, and average profitability is a very important factor in the success of PC.

We arenGÇÖt playing with free clones anymore. Each death is a 200K loss over and above the fitting. Payouts are half that for the clones you kill, resulting in a 100K loss for an even KDR (which by definition your average corp will have). Likewise you donGÇÖt get all your equipment losses back in loot as a percentage is destroyed in battle.

So the question is, just how much will an average PC battle cost, and will a districtGÇÖs production be worth it?

That actually sounds pretty balanced.

It introduces a small advantage for the defender (by making attacking more of an economic investment), but also guarantees the defender can't game the system to cowardly ends.

You're going to get attacked either way, but it ensures that the person who wants the attack most pays the dearest price.

well a quick calculation shows that with the default production rates and the default clone storage it would take 5 days to start making money assuming you buy a clone pack and take over a abandoned district, and then you would make roughly 4 million isk a day from 1 district. so long as the total battle price doesn't exceed 4 million isk your going to make a profit.

Ok, so what does 4M ISK buy us?

A clone costs 200K, a decent fitting will add another 100K. That gives us 13 deaths for the team before it goes negative, and that doesnGÇÖt count any vehicles.

My concern is that it just isnGÇÖt nearly enough return to make PC a wining business strategy for the average corp, and that will shrink participation to a small percentage of the corps. Not only that, but only the cream of that corp will be able to participate due to the high stakes, and those not involved with become disaffected

What I haven't read is the 20% of left over clones given to the defenders and how this could help with the mega corp. splitting to smaller ones to get more land off the initial land grab.

If your sister corp. goes to attack your mother corp. and doesn't use a single clone 20 out of the 100 go to the mother, this is half a day production.

As I understand a corp. can do both attack and defend as long as they have the clones to do it.

Mother corp. is locked by a sister corp attacking it. Sister corp doesn't deploy anyone and mother corp. has 1 player sign on and cap all null cannons destroying sister corp. mcc with 100 clones left giving mother corp 20 additional clones. For only 20 mill more sister corp can do it again locking up mother corp. from other attackers, while mother corp can go on to attack other corps not worrying about it.

The whole grudge thing between corps will only happen as long as they are within a couple of jumps of each other or one decides to stay homeless. If the two corps.that don't like each other are too far apart you won't see them attacking each other because of attrition cost.

That's one district with an SRL as the SI, a production facility would make 6m isk a day and we're assuming a corp has one district that is being attacked every day. The simple fact is that it would be uneconomic for a corp to attack someone everyday as a loss guarentee's at least 2 mil isk lost, so some days you're unlikely to be attacked at all. And you're assuming that the corp will pay for every fitting fielded in the battle, in practice most people fund their own fittings as much as possible and they'll be able to because the players not the corps will get the money and salvage from these battles. As for your last point the a team is unlikely to be on every time a district is vulnerable and a good ceo will make sure to rotate participation of every battle that isn't an absolutely must win

or you're going to see a corp migrate across systems to get into range of the other. and your point about sister corps is unworkable, you would make such a large isk loss doing that it would be unsustainable.

You are correct in that any one corp won't be able to fund a 20M attack every day, but you forget that there will be alot of landless corps that can take turns attacking you. To take that into account you need to assume a large enough district supply that there isn't a steady stream of landless corps queuing up to attack every existing district every day.

It also assumes that the players will be paying the cost of their own gear which is to say they are funding PC from farming public matches for ISK and PC won't be paying for itself. That makes PC a Peacocks' tail. Something that you spend resources on to show off how capable you are, but not something that generates worth on its own.

That brag is certainly a valid driver and recruitment tool. It offers non-pub matches which is a big draw. I just want to point out that it likely isn't going to pay for itself, and in that way it's just like our current corp battle system.

A large enough corp taxing their members I think could easily cover the costs, you get around 200 k a pub match with enough members and the time until this launches it might not be sustainable forever but it could help the mother corp gain a strong foothold immediately and then once they are sustainable by themselves the sister corp doesn't need to be funded. So it isn't a tactic that you would continue just use at the beginning.

well a quick calculation shows that with the default production rates and the default clone storage it would take 5 days to start making money assuming you buy a clone pack and take over a abandoned district, and then you would make roughly 4 million isk a day from 1 district. so long as the total battle price doesn't exceed 4 million isk your going to make a profit.

How so?

20 milliion out.

Lets, for the sake of argument, assume no incoming attacks from anyone, which means no clone losses for the duration of the attempt to earn money.

You have 100 clones.

Lets assume a best-case scenario of taking a region with a Production Facility, meaning you're producing 60 clones a day.

Day 1: 60 clones. You now have 160, and are still 20 million down.
Day 2: 60 clones. You now have 220, and are still 20 million down.
Day 3: 60 clones. You now have 280, and are still 20 million down.
Day 4: 60 clones. You now have 300, and 40 clones to sell. 16 million down.
Day 5: 60 clones. Still maxed at 300, with 60 clones to sell. 10 million down.
Day 6: 60 clones. Still maxed at 300, with 60 clones to sell. 4 million down.

It takes a week to see a profit given the best-case scenario for fast earnings. And that best-case scenario is a district that's more vulnerable to attack than a well-stocked world with a Cargo Hub.

I am very confused why the debate is over whether or not creating dummy corps and sister corps to speed up your expansion is better than just increasing the size of a single corp. I also realize that the object here is to find the exploits well before anything is published.

What are Alliances for ?

I think the reality that is being missed is that you are injecting an entirely different demographic than the very eccentric EVE players are used to. Suddenly I find myself in voice chat with a 16 year old Zit faced punk that thinks he can rap and talks in ebonics... Sorry, I just canGÇÖt even be in a corp that lets that kid in it. I am kinda old and set in my ways. I am quite sure that guy will find his place in the universe and I look forward to meeting him on the battlefield again.

So these dust corps will only work long term if they build bonds and stay small, random invite corps always seem to splinter and fail eventually. So an alliance of smaller corps that coordinate cycle times is what this system is catering to... The more logistics you add by trying to make a 3 person corp the more difficult it will be to control and it will wreck hard and fast. Imagine with friendly fire active, say you are trying to fill your squads in a hurry and the 2 random guys you picked up waste like 30 clones before you can bump them from the squad...

I foresee a massive land grab at the launch, I see many planets just off the radar to some degree and expanding uncontested for a short period of time. Possibly allowed to expand way beyond their means if only to get that clone surplus to market. I see certain systems constantly at battle and a major drain on the corp or alliances resources.

I see exciting battles where a squad of only 6 guys in militia gear fends of a full strength attack and humiliates the attacking corp, into looking elsewhere for their next fight.

Then there is EVE. You will need to control the space above your planet at least as long as your battles are on or you donGÇÖt get no stinking Orbital Strikes and your oponent will. That can easily decide a battle and from day to day who owns the space has a distinct advantage. I assume eventually the capsuleers will be pumping out all the resources their Dust guys could possibly want. A strong corp could easily fund an all GÇ£ProtoGÇ¥ fit for hours of curb stomping fun.

Does your splinter corp plan factor any of this ?

Sorry I'm a simple person please tell me what PW is and where you would find said discussion?

I've read through this thread and see where this cant be sustainable but it does seem like an advantage that can be used.

Sorry I meant PC and I've now fixed the post

I love diplomacy. It has been a big inspiration for this design.

I heard in a video that eve players will be able to give dust players contracts. What will the eve players have to gain. Will they get some of the isk, or will they need clones too. Also, I'd like to see eve players participating more in battles. Also, maybe some kind of faction hub would be cool