Hey, was the remote clone bomb topic beat to death already? Has it been discussed?

Planned mechanic loveliness:
Attacking 6 clone jumps gives a survival rate of 20%, making this the business of the very best out there.
The clone projection makes logistical borders and creates local empires.

Metagame problem:
The above cool thing is ruined by dropping genolution clone bombs from alt corps, giving 100 (or 200) clones instantly anywhere on the map. Metagaming around clone projection breaks logistical borders and would be pretty shattering when thought in the grand New Eden future nullsec content.

Solutions?

• Make this an acceptable form of force projection and limit the strenght by sticking with a low genolution clone pack amount.
• System upgrades resembling cynosural jammers, that limit the genolution attack strenght on districts or remove the possibility.
• Genolution clones cannot be used in nullsec; you need to expand to nullsec from lowsec.

I want to open this up for discussion, we are currently thinking of increasing the clone starter pack to 200 clones. This also means an increase from 20 million to 40 million ISK in cost.

There are a few reasons for this, but before I go into that I want to hear your opinions and thoughts without influencing them.

Take a read through this, it should answer most those questions: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_Conquest

I will however try and answer them again here for you. As seen in the Reinforcement timers section (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_Conquest#Reinforcement_Timers):

Specifically take a look at the attack scenarios. You seem to be mixing up the launch attack time and the time when attacks actually happen, the reinforcement time.

So in attack scenario 01:
Reinforcement timer set to 12:00 - 13:00
Attacker launches an attack at 11:00 on Monday
Defending district set as "under attack"
Battle happens in the 12:00 - 13:00 window on Tuesday

For arguments sake lets say the battle ends up being at 12:30. The attackers have from 12:30 until 13:30 to launch another attack on the district. If they choose to do so the battle will happen in the 12:00 - 13:00 window on Wednesday. Does that make sense?

If you do this the destruction of the MCC will be the deciding factor in the outcome of most of these early matches, if not all. I suppose that's OK, however, I recall it being said that it was to be skirmish mode for the sake of a timer ending the match in due course so that a lone remaining clone couldn't hide out and prolong the match or other strange scenarios ensuing.

It's all fine and dandy I suppose but it does seem a bit odd somehow.

Skirmish for the larger map (I assume) and a timer.
But clone count is what really matters in a battle..
But most battles will end with the destruction of the MCC if put at 200 clones.
Which is just there for the sake of the timer.

How about removing all but one hackable points but leaving in the MCCs to fire at each other and just increase their damage?
You still have your timer.
Possible destruction of the MC
Puts the focus on fighting and clone count.
Keeps the better, larger maps with the good (safer) spawn points and lines to launch the initial attack.

Just a thought.

Very curious as to your reasoning for the 200 clone count.

Early on most attacks will result in loss of MCC but that is why you must sustain an attack over several days. If the attacker wins, the defender loses 100 clones and can't produce more, so you go back the next day and wittle them down further until you finally wipe them out entirely.

I want to open this up for discussion, we are currently thinking of increasing the clone starter pack to 200 clones. This also means an increase from 20 million to 40 million ISK in cost.

There are a few reasons for this, but before I go into that I want to hear your opinions and thoughts without influencing them.

I'd say yes.

As a few people have suggested, an option to buy either 100 or 200 clones would be great, but if the current implementation only supports one purchase option, I can think of a few reasons to go with the 200 clones pack instead of only 100. The biggest argument is that you want it to feel like a Skirmish, and with the current Skirmish mechanics, 100 vs. 100 is just going to turn into a clone count battle. 200 vs. 200 would potentially make for much harder-fought battles, and the numbers would make it more sensible to risk pushing a little past that basline 100 clones if you've got a good chance of collecting 20% of something more than 0 clones at the end of the battle if you win by objectives.

Yea, that last paragraph is what I was wondering (I've read the wiki multiple times). I sort of changed the terminology to easily distinguish between Setting an Attack (deciding you want to attack a district and waiting the 24 hours) and Launching an Attack (when you're actually doing the fighting itself).

The 1-hour exclusivity means you get to Set an Attack, but have to wait those 24 hours again to actually fight the battle--okay I get it. Thanks.

How does the Reinforcement timer on the first day work? If I set it for the next full hour after taking my first district, would I get those clones that same day?

Question :

Still a minimum of 100 clones loss ?

Cause with a 200 stack, what happen if game ends at MCC destruction and not clone depletion ? Does the attacker get any refund or something ?

The reinforcement timer can never go backwards. So RT set for 15:00. It is currently 01:00 on Monday. You change the RT to 02:00. The district is locked until 02:00 on Tuesday and you don't get clones until 02:00 Tuesday.

Still 100 minimum, any spare clones would get sold at the 100,000 ISK price, versus the 200,000 ISK price Genolution sells them to you at.

It's a bit of a double edged sword. In the long term, once everything's settled, the only way to get into PC if you've not already, is to use a genolution pack. If you only get 100 clones, that's not going to be enough to take on a lot of districts that will already probably be well stocked up to the 300 mark. With 200 you have a much better chance at succeeding. Otherwise we'd be effectively shutting out anyone who doesn't get in at the start but wants to have a go later on.

Your gen-bombing idea would be good to harass distant enemies with but wouldn't really achieve much long term because even if your alt-corp managed to take a district, it's totally isolated and will likely get horrendously counter attacked. It would distract your target for sure and maybe use up some of their resources but the result would be negligible.

Let's not get into supposition on null-sec just yet; we have no idea what's planned for that.

So the first RT depends on the district 1st capture ?

The reinforcement timer can never go backwards. So RT set for 15:00. It is currently 01:00 on Monday. You change the RT to 02:00. The district is locked until 02:00 on Tuesday and you don't get clones until 02:00 Tuesday.

So you can't use the rest to attack the second day. You only sell them half the price ?

Good to know, thanks.

And just to clarify, a district keeps producing clones during the Reinforcement timer even if the status is "Under Attack", right (assuming they haven't had their MCC destroyed in an earlier battle)?

Good to know, thanks.

And just to clarify, a district keeps producing clones during the Reinforcement timer even if the status is "Under Attack", right (assuming they haven't had their MCC destroyed in an earlier battle)?

Indeed, as an attacker you will have to fight through the clones produced that reinforcement cycle when you attack.

The one problem I have with this purchasing clone system is by using alt corps this is a quick and easy way for a corp to purchase clones of the npc market although at a hefty price of 1mil a pop so by using an alt corp and consitantly attacking a district until corp supplies are full is going to be a common practice when a corp takes over a district/

while expensive a large corp will not care.
For example corp A captures district B (either at beginning first come first serve or by depleting the opponents clone count).
corp A has a alt corp C set up and ready soon as the system becomes unlocked they attack with corp C after 24hours and a battle they instantly win the stock of the system has gone up by 40-60 from district and 40 from the battle if they have not reached cap yet they attack again for another 40mil and another 24hours of invun means after the auto win battle corp A now has a district that is fully supplied in clones without the need of any moving of clones around districts,

so using this system they can keep all districts at max clones never having move around clones causing districts to have less then max apart from when a district attacks.

though saying all this i understand this will cost corp A a lot isk to maintain (which large corps will have either way) and apart from making it more difficult for a corp to attack a district it has lost agaisnt multiple times
one idea could be as every battle lost causes clone attrition for example

Corp B attacks corp A with 200 clones after first attack corp B was defeated,
in the hour exclusive period they select to battle again with 200 clones in this next battle due to the first loss the clones suffer attrition and 10% are lost before the battle starts meaning clone count for next battle is 180

if corp B is defeated again and choose to attack in the exclusive period again the attrition is 20% (two consecutive losses) resulting in only 160 out of 200 clones availble for battle (SI upgrades could be used to reduce attrition amount)

With this system a corp will have a limit to many losses they can suffer before the match is unable to take part (after 5 consecutive losses corp B is no longer able to supply the 100 clone minumum count) meaning corps have to carefully decide if they want to keep pushing an attack even though they are loosing or retreat for a time and attack once penalty is lifted (if they attack outside of the exclusive timezone)

A single win could either reduce the attrition or cancel it all together. this would stop Corp A from using an alt corp to keep there district safe using exclusive timer as there is a limit to how many battles can be thought this way and with reduced clones earned from each fight makes it more expensive to keep this up.

although it is possible for Corp to switch between multiple alt corps it would mean the district would at some point become accessable to another corp at some point rather then at current where a district may never become at risk if the isk supply is large enough

Wait, what? I thought you only produce clones if you win?

Wait, what? I thought you only produce clones if you win?

Ok, so the 200 clone count makes it more expensive to attempt to lock down your district with alt corps. If this is the reasoning behind it then I'm happy. Perhaps there are other ways to reduce the alt corp abuse.

Limiting:
How often you can switch corps
How often you can create a corp
How often an individual merc can unsuccessfully attack a district.

Just thinking out loud.