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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 189 post(s) |
S Park Finner
BetaMax. CRONOS.
99
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Posted - 2013.03.15 03:56:00 -
[361] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Was nice enough to answer some of the questions I had. So I modified the original post and asked a few more!
When you are a bit less blurry eyed I hope you get a chance to revisit it and answer the new questions. Many thanks for all the effort you guys have put into this so far.
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Grimmiers
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
159
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Posted - 2013.03.15 04:05:00 -
[362] - Quote
Are there any plans to make owned districts provide manufacturing, mining, or salvaging missions for dust related content? Lets say a corporation owns a certain percent of the planet, it would be cool if you could make a capital district that does a major job like manufacturing and other districts that would mine, or provide new salvage locations on post battled maps.
I like how you can currently sell access clones for money, but I'm hoping for more player controlled perks and a way to produce shiny corporation equipment. |
Enalie
Gentlemen's Foreign Legion Gentlemen's Agreement
4
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Posted - 2013.03.15 04:26:00 -
[363] - Quote
Just some general thoughts to prevent potential exploits:
1) Can only buy clones from genolution once in a given time period. Victory without capturing a district would result in resetting this lockout period. Prevents:
- Attacking a location, capturing it and immediately disbanding it to purchase clones again in another location, while having another friendly corporation immediately snatch up the abandoned district. This would fundamentally circumvent the attrition mechanic for attacking distant locations.
- A dummy corp purchasing clones everyday to assault a district, and intentionally failing as a method of protecting a district.
2) Minimum age of a corporation before they can buy clones from genolution. Prevents circumventing the above rule. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
87
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Posted - 2013.03.15 04:41:00 -
[364] - Quote
SoLJae wrote:CCP, thanks for the exciting news.
I just have one question: When will we get this?
I know you mentioned that it will be later this year, but can you at least estimate it down to a month, if not a specific date?
This^
Can we please know WHEN?
Should we expect it before FanFest? |
Yemi Shakor
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 04:55:00 -
[365] - Quote
I hope sometimes in the future that alliances and corps will have to build or buy their own MCC in order to launch an invasion of a district.
Instead of being provided with a MCC by NPC corps like Genolution Corporation ...
Oh by the way, building said vehicles should only be able to be done by SI.. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
27
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Posted - 2013.03.15 05:02:00 -
[366] - Quote
Apologies if this has been addressed. My main concern or question is about the income being balanced with EVE Online. I want this balanced so that we can hurry up and allow ISK transfers between the economies!
It seems that there is some sort of built in limit to how much corporations can control (which I think is great in principle!). Let us say that a corporation on average can maintain N districts per player (where very likely N < 1). Number of districts that can be controlled will be limited by at least these two factors, though they are probably the most important: 1. How many fronts the corporation can manage to fight on simultaneously 2. How many clones are produced in order to be able to attack other districts
So what is a reasonable estimate for N? Perhaps you guys have estimated this already, in which case you can plug that value in. Let's say a corporation can manage 1 district per 30 or so players. This is probably optimistic for your average corp, but pessimistic for a very active corp. That is, from 30 or so players, this means you will have enough numbers to be able to form a full defence squad each day, with reasonable quality players. This gives us an estimate of N = 1/30.
Each district produces 40 clones, or 60 with an upgrade, so let's set it optimistically to an average of 50 clones per district per day. Each clone has a sale price (if I understand correctly) of 100,000 ISK, or 0.1 mil ISK.
That gives us a profit per player in the corporation of around (N * 50 * 0.1) in millions. Other sources of income include public battles, though the income here is negligible compared to EVE Online profits. There are also the profits from winning district control battles, but I will exclude these from the estimate for a simple reason -- profits gained in district control battles are taken from other players. This does not represent increased wealth in either ISK injections OR item injections (by contrast, mining in EVE adds minerals to the game, missions add ISK and salvage). It merely shuffles around (with attrition) the wealth in a part of the game. So I think we can reasonably estimate an average income per player by excluding this. In fact, since wealth is removed from the game due to a battle, the estimate I provide will I expect be higher than the actual. That is, the estimate of wealth per player per day is a maximum for a well chosen N.
Now for some incomes: N = 1/30 = 167k per player per day N = 1/16 (for your more active corp) = 313k per player per day
Perhaps we need to be more optimistic and estimate a tight knit group of 16 players that's available for two or three battles a day, fighting a defensive war on a few fronts, allowing them to control upwards of 10 districts (since they don't get attacked at all districts at once). In this case:
N = 10/16 = 3.13 mil per player per day
Remember that this is a maximum estimate for the chosen N. Of course, there will be anomalous corporations that do particularly well, but as I mentioned this success will involve wealth transfer rather than creation.
So in summary, it seems to me that these profits are woefully inadequate to compete with EVE Online. Planetary Interaction in EVE Online (pessimistically) can generate perhaps 1 mil per planet in high sec for very minimal work, and let's say 4 planets for a relatively unskilled player. That's 4 mil per day for one character that has no risk involved, and takes nowhere near the skill or effort that district control will take. Have I missed something? Or misunderstood something important?
I want ISK transfer between these games, so if my analysis is right, let's please get the profits higher :) |
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
333
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Posted - 2013.03.15 05:10:00 -
[367] - Quote
In the spirit of attacking and defending in real life, whose 'soil' will the battles be fought on?
For example, say a EU corp attacks a US corps district, will the server for that battle be located in the US, EU, or some other 'neutral' server somewhere in-between?
Would make sense if the attackers had to play on servers closest to the defenders location. Because after all this is the defenders district, they know the lay of the land best and should get the lag advantage when facing foreign intruders
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RINON114
B.S.A.A.
41
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Posted - 2013.03.15 05:44:00 -
[368] - Quote
So what if I just want to do this kind of thing as a solo player or someone in a very small corp? If I lose do I need to reconquer the district and will it still have my upgrades? |
Jungian
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
9
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Posted - 2013.03.15 06:32:00 -
[369] - Quote
DJINN leukoplast wrote:In the spirit of attacking and defending in real life, whose 'soil' will the battles be fought on? For example, say a EU corp attacks a US corps district, will the server for that battle be located in the US, EU, or some other 'neutral' server somewhere in-between? Would make sense if the attackers had to play on servers closest to the defenders location. Because after all this is the defenders district, they know the lay of the land best and should get the lag advantage when facing foreign intruders
With the epic match of Fischer vs Spassky still in mind, I would say Iceland is the perfect neutral arena |
Dalton Smithe
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
64
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Posted - 2013.03.15 07:07:00 -
[370] - Quote
So, I was reading the wiki on planetary conquest. One of the conflict resolutions is attacker kills MCC. I take from this that both sides have to field an MCC to defend a district in a skirmish, is this true or am I reading into it. I remember back when in September that we had skirmishes where only 1 MCC was in play and it was a matter of the MCC either docking with the base or being destroyed. Are those going to come back or are they gone forever like the dinosaurs? I really enjoyed those matches, being on either the defenders or attackers. It was quite a bit of fun |
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Dalton Smithe
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
64
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Posted - 2013.03.15 07:08:00 -
[371] - Quote
Jungian wrote:DJINN leukoplast wrote:In the spirit of attacking and defending in real life, whose 'soil' will the battles be fought on? For example, say a EU corp attacks a US corps district, will the server for that battle be located in the US, EU, or some other 'neutral' server somewhere in-between? Would make sense if the attackers had to play on servers closest to the defenders location. Because after all this is the defenders district, they know the lay of the land best and should get the lag advantage when facing foreign intruders With the epic match of Fischer vs Spassky still in mind, I would say Iceland is the perfect neutral arena
I thought the servers were in a central location. If not that is a very good question. |
Soozu
5o1st
16
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Posted - 2013.03.15 07:13:00 -
[372] - Quote
Will you make the starmaps, clone pre orders etc. available before the mad dash land grabs or is this all going to be in one shot? One big Garfield download? |
Druk Spyker
DUST University Ivy League
4
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Posted - 2013.03.15 07:23:00 -
[373] - Quote
Poor clones. My cousins secure containers all have central heating, plumbing and enough food for a month. If he was flying them they would all survive. |
Druk Spyker
DUST University Ivy League
4
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 08:22:00 -
[374] - Quote
For all those with questions about map generation, watch this: Fanfest 2012 presentation |
trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
210
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Posted - 2013.03.15 08:24:00 -
[375] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:trollsroyce wrote:WARNING AND DOOMSAY:
The described mechanic favors exponential growth! As the ISK making through clones is not dependant on resource rarity and consumption, this can be cracked down to "attack spam 10000 districs, snowball effect and insert rapton of ISK in New Eden".
This is purely a numbers game by spam attacking, setting tedious timezones as defense and just using all manhours in district flipping.
Nullsec sov passive ISK is relying on the moon minerals as industry materials, and by bottlenecks favors defending precious ones. As explained in blog, the system is cracked and won by exponential attack growth and hence by numbers.
NOOOOoooo!
The more districts you own the more places you will be able to be attacked from. The way they describe it, you will be able to be attacked at 100% efficiency from all districts in your system each day, the at decent efficiency from what will probably be like 25-30% of remaining districts. Just because you have lots of money it doesn't give you a win button. If you own 10 districts that is 10 man-hours x 16 members you will be vulnerable. You will be responsible for 160 man hours of defense time FOR DEFENSE ONLY. If you want to increase your attacking logarithmically you have to also find enough attacking teams good enough to make that pace of advance worth it.
You are forgetting the obvious solution of "do not defend, just flip more and more, get clones to flip faster". |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1203
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 08:41:00 -
[376] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Did i understand correctly that defenders wont be able to send in some more clones from another district for one hour after an attack ? Correct, the attacker has an hour exclusivity period from the time the attack started to decide to launch a new attack. During this time it is not possible for the defender to move more clones in or for anyone else to attack it. Remember though, if you win the defence your district will regenerate clones before the next attack, plus you get the biomass payment and the 20% bonus on remaining clones so it is possible to actually come out ahead after a successful defence.
In case you win a defense. Does the attacker still gets that "prime hour" during which he has dibs on attacking you and you cannot send in reinforcements from another district ?
Would make sense that the winning side gets an edge.
Attacker wins => "Dibs" Hour + no clone generated for defenders + no possible backup for defenders
Defender wins => "Dibs Hours" can remain so the attacker can take its revenge BUT Defenders do generate clones and can send in more clones.
Would be a good bargain.
Also, a question i didnt get an answer for. More of a precision tbh:
Say a defender has 350 clones in its district and is under attack. Do ALL the clones get automatically involved in the battle ? Or do the defender decide how much he wants to commit ?
I understand the defender chooses to send 50/100/200 or more as he sees fits |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1203
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 08:44:00 -
[377] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:
You are forgetting the obvious solution of "do not defend, just flip more and more, get clones to flip faster".
You're wrong on that one Trolls. It all comes down to how many districts are available. And the fact that even a 20 man corp can hold one or two district without that much problem means it's gonna be pretty crowded, pretty fast.
So, flipping districts and dont care about fights wont work as at some point, there wont be any district left to flip.
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Himalayan Mashface
Kittycat Company
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 09:01:00 -
[378] - Quote
Icy Tiger wrote:Worth it. This will be so bad ass. Now we need an ETA.
Seconding the level of badassery. |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
165
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 09:23:00 -
[379] - Quote
How does the clone Reinforcement timer work?
Is it a lump of clones in the beginning (or end) of the 1-hour period that gives you all of them at once? Or is it gradual, where if you were getting, say 60 clones, you'd get one per minute for the full hour? Or some other way?
When you move clones to a district you own from one you own, do the clones arrive immediately or do they wait until the Reinforcement timer to actually show up? |
trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
210
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 09:34:00 -
[380] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:trollsroyce wrote:
You are forgetting the obvious solution of "do not defend, just flip more and more, get clones to flip faster".
You're wrong on that one Trolls. It all comes down to how many districts are available. And the fact that even a 20 man corp can hold one or two district without that much problem means it's gonna be pretty crowded, pretty fast. So, flipping districts and dont care about fights wont work as at some point, there wont be any district left to flip.
The numbers here might be off by a lot: GÇó at the league of 10000 atmospheric nullsec planets GÇó lets approximate that to 10 districts per, resulting 100000 to grow exponentially in.
Give a no-show rate of 10%, and flipping 1000 per day using afk loners to flip after no show, you gain 100. Will you lose that daily? Perhaps, probably not if the attackers are roleplaying with 16 man squads.
In any case the exponential growth in beginning gives a massive clone advantage, as well as isk. Being able to hold 10000 districts by just attacking and setting nasty reinforce timexones seems viable, but:
GÇóGÇóGÇó it all comes down to CEO and clone seller clickfest. you want to win this game? prepare for burn outs. this will be worse than planeteering in EVE |
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trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
210
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 09:43:00 -
[381] - Quote
The reason EVE nullsec is defended are moon minerals. The high end ones are valuable and defended. EVE nullsec has no direct passive isk generator like dust will. Dust planets, according to given info, are equal: they make isk from clones. Local identity matters little if you can make potentially 100x isk by spam attacking everywhere and taking passive isk for a week per planet in average, but from 1000 planets instead of 10. |
trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
210
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 09:52:00 -
[382] - Quote
Lets think of it as manpower efficiency: do you choose to attack or to defend?
GÇó defense 16 man: clones are lost, over 100 if you lose. GÇó defense no-show: 100 clones lost GÇó no-show takes 3 fights to flip. bad defense takes 2
GÇó attacking 3 fight timeframe, GÇó split 16 players on 16 planets, run from defended and only afk farm non defended. you can roll approx 5 min per fight to see if defended. 1player kills 100 clones when no show happens.
In any case, directors die to the probing attacks clickfest. |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
318
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 10:02:00 -
[383] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote: GÇó attacking 3 fight timeframe, GÇó split 16 players on 16 planets, run from defended and only afk farm non defended. you can roll approx 5 min per fight to see if defended. 1player kills 100 clones when no show happens.
When you run from the defenders, don't you lose 100 clones? So if 14 of those 16 planets are defended, won't you lose 1400 clones? More if you lost some when moving them. You'll also have given those 14 defending corps a load of biomass income so they can fight you better in future.
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Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
419
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 10:04:00 -
[384] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:Lets think of it as manpower efficiency: do you choose to attack or to defend?
GÇó defense 16 man: clones are lost, over 100 if you lose. GÇó defense no-show: 100 clones lost GÇó no-show takes 3 fights to flip. bad defense takes 2
GÇó attacking 3 fight timeframe, GÇó split 16 players on 16 planets, run from defended and only afk farm non defended. you can roll approx 5 min per fight to see if defended. 1player kills 100 clones when no show happens.
In any case, directors die to the probing attacks clickfest. You can't really keep that up clonewise.
That's also assuming you're winning every match. What happens when you run into defenders that kill more of your clones than you kill of theirs?
Add to that that when you're out attacking districts someone (else) might be attacking yours, taking out 100 of your clones each time (or less if there aren't 100 there, but then they take the district as well).
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trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
210
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 10:05:00 -
[385] - Quote
Now for the simple fix: steady, cumulative growth on clone production on owned disticts. Starts from 0, ends up 1000 clones per day on year held ones. This makes it worth keeping few over spam attacking based on probabilities of flipping. |
trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
210
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Posted - 2013.03.15 10:09:00 -
[386] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:trollsroyce wrote: GÇó attacking 3 fight timeframe, GÇó split 16 players on 16 planets, run from defended and only afk farm non defended. you can roll approx 5 min per fight to see if defended. 1player kills 100 clones when no show happens.
When you run from the defenders, don't you lose 100 clones? So if 14 of those 16 planets are defended, won't you lose 1400 clones? More if you lost some when moving them. You'll also have given those 14 defending corps a load of biomass income so they can fight you better in future. This is passed by bringing 16 and leaving one behind, but you are right in that I am slipping from the growth period where planets are empty. My main concern is the exponential gold rush in start.
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Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1203
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 10:14:00 -
[387] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:Laurent Cazaderon wrote:trollsroyce wrote:
You are forgetting the obvious solution of "do not defend, just flip more and more, get clones to flip faster".
You're wrong on that one Trolls. It all comes down to how many districts are available. And the fact that even a 20 man corp can hold one or two district without that much problem means it's gonna be pretty crowded, pretty fast. So, flipping districts and dont care about fights wont work as at some point, there wont be any district left to flip. The numbers here might be off by a lot: GÇó at the league of 10000 atmospheric nullsec planets GÇó lets approximate that to 10 districts per, resulting 100000 to grow exponentially in. Give a no-show rate of 10%, and flipping 1000 per day using afk loners to flip after no show, you gain 100. Will you lose that daily? Perhaps, probably not if the attackers are roleplaying with 16 man squads. In any case the exponential growth in beginning gives a massive clone advantage, as well as isk. Being able to hold 10000 districts by just attacking and setting nasty reinforce timexones seems viable, but: GÇóGÇóGÇó it all comes down to CEO and clone seller clickfest. you want to win this game? prepare for burn outs. this will be worse than planeteering in EVE
You're thinking way too far ahead. Things will obviously evolve. This is planetary conquest 0.1. Only 250 districts. No room for much flipping and no fighting.
Do make feedback and have thoughts with the current data. It's absolutely impossible to figure out the big big picture immediatly. Steps are required. |
trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
210
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 10:14:00 -
[388] - Quote
You see, if there was accumulative value in keeping planets long, small groups would have their place in holding very valuable ones. Now the corps with more players grow exponentially and there is no reason to care about which planets you own - just use the clone numbers and player number advantage to spam attack weaklings. |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
318
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 10:33:00 -
[389] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:R F Gyro wrote:trollsroyce wrote: GÇó attacking 3 fight timeframe, GÇó split 16 players on 16 planets, run from defended and only afk farm non defended. you can roll approx 5 min per fight to see if defended. 1player kills 100 clones when no show happens.
When you run from the defenders, don't you lose 100 clones? So if 14 of those 16 planets are defended, won't you lose 1400 clones? More if you lost some when moving them. You'll also have given those 14 defending corps a load of biomass income so they can fight you better in future. This is passed by bringing 16 and leaving one behind, but you are right in that I am slipping from the growth period where planets are empty. My main concern is the exponential gold rush in start.
From the Wiki...
Quote: Minimum of 100 clones must be moved at a time
The attacker will have committed at least 100 clones to the attack (before attrition), and will lose at least 100.
That actually raises another question, which I'll direct to CCP in another post. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
419
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 10:36:00 -
[390] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:You see, if there was accumulative value in keeping planets long, small groups would have their place in holding very valuable ones. Now the corps with more players grow exponentially and there is no reason to care about which planets you own - just use the clone numbers and player number advantage to spam attack weaklings. There are only about 250 districts to start with, so I don't see how a corp like PRO will hold many districts.
They will take one to start with (if they're quick enough that is, 250 other corps might take all the districts before them).
After that 3 things can happen.
1. PRO doesn't attack anyone and nobody attacks them. Very unlikely.
2. PRO attacks someone with their 100 clones (that's all they have to begin with). The defender also have 100 clones. PRO will lose. They don't get the district and they lost all of their clones, so their own district is practically up for grabs.
3. PRO doesn't attack anyone, but is being attacked themself. Both sides have again 100 clones each. PRO will lose the match and the district as well.
If 2 or 3 happens PRO is left without districts and will have to attack someone buying a pack of 100 clones. They will not win any attack they make, so they will have to take out more than 40 of the defender's clones (or more than 60 if the defender has the SI that produces 60 clones each day) because when they lose the defender will produce 40 clones more for the attack from PRO the next day. If they only take out 30 clones the defender will have 10 clones more than in the first match.
In a 16 vs 16 battle I can see a lot of corps winning over PRO without losing more than 40 clones. How will PRO ever get any districts then?
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