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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 189 post(s) |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1030
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Posted - 2013.03.14 20:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
So there's a benefit to grouping your districts and those of your alliance. That means will be choosing specific districts or planets during our initial land grab.
I can see this leading to conflict if two different alliances choose the same starting points unbeknownst to each other.
Is there going to be a turn based district claim system a in Risk(TM) or is it going to be chaos as everyone tries to stake their claim the millisecond that the land office opens? |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1030
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 20:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
So the defender is limited to the clone count at the start of the timer, but what of the attacker?
As I read it, they can keep calling in follow on attacks from different districts until they whittle the defenders down to nothing. That means an attacker can almost be assured of a victory if they are willing to commit enough resources and a small corp can always be kicked back into space, correct? |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1032
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Posted - 2013.03.16 17:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Missing from this discussion of mechanics is any mention of motivation.
Why as a corporation would I want to plunk down that first 20M ISK? What am I getting for my money? Is this a wise business decision? Is there sufficient ROI to warrant this action?
As described so far the only advantage of PC is to produce ISK, so I am buying future ISK with current ISK. There are two cases, either PC is an ISK fountain pumping more money into the DUST universe, or it is an ISK sink.
From what IGÇÖve read so far CCP wants constant warfare so itGÇÖs going to be a sink. Each battle will see significant clone and equipment loss. Sure, the winning side might break even or come out ahead slightly, but in aggregate there will be a loss with CCP raking its take off the top of each battle. By definition the average corp is going to lose half its battles and therefore end up with an overall ISK loss.
With no EVE link all that money is coming from corp members farming public matches for ISK. ThatGÇÖs a lot of farming, especially if you donGÇÖt get picked to join the A-Team for the actual battle. How long are members going to contribute? This feels like the current corp battle system with some window dressing. The only motivation to run them is relief from constant public matches.
The level of conflict has to be fairly low for PC to be an ISK faucet for a corp, and that means constant expansion of the frontier. If you make the districts worth too much you will motivate more corps to fight for them until they are once again unprofitable.
As I see it you just canGÇÖt balance it on an ISK basis. You have to be buying something else for your money than more ISK. What is that, and is it enough?
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Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1032
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Posted - 2013.03.16 19:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Skihids wrote:Missing from this discussion of mechanics is any mention of motivation.
Why as a corporation would I want to plunk down that first 20M ISK? What am I getting for my money? Is this a wise business decision? Is there sufficient ROI to warrant this action?
As described so far the only advantage of PC is to produce ISK, so I am buying future ISK with current ISK. There are two cases, either PC is an ISK fountain pumping more money into the DUST universe, or it is an ISK sink.
From what IGÇÖve read so far CCP wants constant warfare so itGÇÖs going to be a sink. Each battle will see significant clone and equipment loss. Sure, the winning side might break even or come out ahead slightly, but in aggregate there will be a loss with CCP raking its take off the top of each battle. By definition the average corp is going to lose half its battles and therefore end up with an overall ISK loss.
With no EVE link all that money is coming from corp members farming public matches for ISK. ThatGÇÖs a lot of farming, especially if you donGÇÖt get picked to join the A-Team for the actual battle. How long are members going to contribute? This feels like the current corp battle system with some window dressing. The only motivation to run them is relief from constant public matches.
The level of conflict has to be fairly low for PC to be an ISK faucet for a corp, and that means constant expansion of the frontier. If you make the districts worth too much you will motivate more corps to fight for them until they are once again unprofitable.
As I see it you just canGÇÖt balance it on an ISK basis. You have to be buying something else for your money than more ISK. What is that, and is it enough?
What you are getting for your money is a first glimpse of the Dust 514 end-game. One day this will be huge and hopefully encompass the entire of New Eden. It also gives you and your mercs something tangible to play for, instead of simply running the same old random matchmade blueberry-ful pub games. You're right that it could be either a big sink or faucet but that is entirely dependent on how well your corp does. Manage to hold a district for a week or so and you're suddenly earning 100k isk for every extra clone produced. What else do you get? Loot! The best loot because it'll come from players you kill, unlike pub games atm. You could even earn aurum gear! Awesome tanks! Whatever you've seen other people using, that could be yours. I'd say loot alone is more valuable than any isk you'll potentially earn. And you don't need to be constantly expanding to be profitable. Smaller corps won't be able to protect more than a handful of districts because of numbers but if you manage to hold them, you're in.
So if your corp is good enough to discourage attacks you can make money, otherwise your districts are a PeacocksGÇÖ tail, funded by contributions from public matches. Yes, you get loot, but the average team is going to lose more than they get in return because a certain amount is destroyed in battle. ItGÇÖs a zero sum game as the only assets in play other than the clones produced in district are those the players bring themselves. If clone production isnGÇÖt more lucrative than your battle losses you have an ISK sink that you need to support from pub match ISK farming. 40 clones is 4M. How much gear is that going to buy if you have to fight every day? One tank and a few proto dropsuit fittings? Can the average corp keep their losses down to that level? WeGÇÖve already heard complaints from some corps that 5M ISK contracts arenGÇÖt enough to make up their losses in the current corp match system. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1032
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Posted - 2013.03.16 19:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
gbghg wrote:Skihids wrote:Django Quik wrote:Skihids wrote:Missing from this discussion of mechanics is any mention of motivation.
Why as a corporation would I want to plunk down that first 20M ISK? What am I getting for my money? Is this a wise business decision? Is there sufficient ROI to warrant this action?
As described so far the only advantage of PC is to produce ISK, so I am buying future ISK with current ISK. There are two cases, either PC is an ISK fountain pumping more money into the DUST universe, or it is an ISK sink.
From what IGÇÖve read so far CCP wants constant warfare so itGÇÖs going to be a sink. Each battle will see significant clone and equipment loss. Sure, the winning side might break even or come out ahead slightly, but in aggregate there will be a loss with CCP raking its take off the top of each battle. By definition the average corp is going to lose half its battles and therefore end up with an overall ISK loss.
With no EVE link all that money is coming from corp members farming public matches for ISK. ThatGÇÖs a lot of farming, especially if you donGÇÖt get picked to join the A-Team for the actual battle. How long are members going to contribute? This feels like the current corp battle system with some window dressing. The only motivation to run them is relief from constant public matches.
The level of conflict has to be fairly low for PC to be an ISK faucet for a corp, and that means constant expansion of the frontier. If you make the districts worth too much you will motivate more corps to fight for them until they are once again unprofitable.
As I see it you just canGÇÖt balance it on an ISK basis. You have to be buying something else for your money than more ISK. What is that, and is it enough?
What you are getting for your money is a first glimpse of the Dust 514 end-game. One day this will be huge and hopefully encompass the entire of New Eden. It also gives you and your mercs something tangible to play for, instead of simply running the same old random matchmade blueberry-ful pub games. You're right that it could be either a big sink or faucet but that is entirely dependent on how well your corp does. Manage to hold a district for a week or so and you're suddenly earning 100k isk for every extra clone produced. What else do you get? Loot! The best loot because it'll come from players you kill, unlike pub games atm. You could even earn aurum gear! Awesome tanks! Whatever you've seen other people using, that could be yours. I'd say loot alone is more valuable than any isk you'll potentially earn. And you don't need to be constantly expanding to be profitable. Smaller corps won't be able to protect more than a handful of districts because of numbers but if you manage to hold them, you're in. So if your corp is good enough to discourage attacks you can make money, otherwise your districts are a PeacocksGÇÖ tail, funded by contributions from public matches. Yes, you get loot, but the average team is going to lose more than they get in return because a certain amount is destroyed in battle. ItGÇÖs a zero sum game as the only assets in play other than the clones produced in district are those the players bring themselves. If clone production isnGÇÖt more lucrative than your battle losses you have an ISK sink that you need to support from pub match ISK farming. 40 clones is 4M. How much gear is that going to buy if you have to fight every day? One tank and a few proto dropsuit fittings? Can the average corp keep their losses down to that level? WeGÇÖve already heard complaints from some corps that 5M ISK contracts arenGÇÖt enough to make up their losses in the current corp match system. Then that means they are using gear beyond their means to support, if you're making a loss because you're fielding proto fittings in every battle the answer is obvious, use less expenisve fittings whenever you can and only use proto when you absolutely have too
That's just it though. You have to or you lose to the attacker who brings high end gear. Using milita gear on a 200K ISK clone is like fitting a Sagaris with militia mods. False economy. If your clone costs far more than your fitting you aren't protecting it well enough. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1032
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 20:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Skihids wrote:
That's just it though. You have to or you lose to the attacker who brings high end gear. Using milita gear on a 200K ISK clone is like fitting a Sagaris with militia mods. False economy. If your clone costs far more than your fitting you aren't protecting it well enough.
If you're losing that much isk in corp matches, you need to realise your corp probably isn't ready for corp battles and will be even less ready for PC unless you get a lot better before it comes in. Seeing as you're in Tritan, I can't see how this could be the case but I rarely play against you guys, so couldn't say for sure. The costs involved are going to mean people will have to play carefully and strategically instead of just running and gunning like teams of rambos. If the attacker is bringing in high end gear, they also have a lot to lose in the battle, so it's a double edged sword for all involved.
I'm speaking in general here, not about Tritan Industries. This is a discussion about the mechanics, and average profitability is a very important factor in the success of PC.
We arenGÇÖt playing with free clones anymore. Each death is a 200K loss over and above the fitting. Payouts are half that for the clones you kill, resulting in a 100K loss for an even KDR (which by definition your average corp will have). Likewise you donGÇÖt get all your equipment losses back in loot as a percentage is destroyed in battle.
So the question is, just how much will an average PC battle cost, and will a districtGÇÖs production be worth it?
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Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1032
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Posted - 2013.03.16 21:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
gbghg wrote:Skihids wrote:Django Quik wrote:Skihids wrote:
That's just it though. You have to or you lose to the attacker who brings high end gear. Using milita gear on a 200K ISK clone is like fitting a Sagaris with militia mods. False economy. If your clone costs far more than your fitting you aren't protecting it well enough.
If you're losing that much isk in corp matches, you need to realise your corp probably isn't ready for corp battles and will be even less ready for PC unless you get a lot better before it comes in. Seeing as you're in Tritan, I can't see how this could be the case but I rarely play against you guys, so couldn't say for sure. The costs involved are going to mean people will have to play carefully and strategically instead of just running and gunning like teams of rambos. If the attacker is bringing in high end gear, they also have a lot to lose in the battle, so it's a double edged sword for all involved. I'm speaking in general here, not about Tritan Industries. This is a discussion about the mechanics, and average profitability is a very important factor in the success of PC. We arenGÇÖt playing with free clones anymore. Each death is a 200K loss over and above the fitting. Payouts are half that for the clones you kill, resulting in a 100K loss for an even KDR (which by definition your average corp will have). Likewise you donGÇÖt get all your equipment losses back in loot as a percentage is destroyed in battle. So the question is, just how much will an average PC battle cost, and will a districtGÇÖs production be worth it? well a quick calculation shows that with the default production rates and the default clone storage it would take 5 days to start making money assuming you buy a clone pack and take over a abandoned district, and then you would make roughly 4 million isk a day from 1 district. so long as the total battle price doesn't exceed 4 million isk your going to make a profit.
Ok, so what does 4M ISK buy us?
A clone costs 200K, a decent fitting will add another 100K. That gives us 13 deaths for the team before it goes negative, and that doesnGÇÖt count any vehicles.
My concern is that it just isnGÇÖt nearly enough return to make PC a wining business strategy for the average corp, and that will shrink participation to a small percentage of the corps. Not only that, but only the cream of that corp will be able to participate due to the high stakes, and those not involved with become disaffected |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1032
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 21:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Another major question that crops up is the nature of our equipment.
Is it physical or virtual?
The current precedent is virtual. We purchase a certain number of licenses to produce copies of a specific item, be it a gun, dropsuit, or nano-injector. Walk up to a supply depot in battle and it will manufacture a fitting for you and disassemble your current fitting and give you a credit for it.
That means we will not require a physical warehouse to store all our loot. It's all stored in digital form in our online accounts. That in turn means we don't have to worry about transporting equipment to an attack site. Just have the clones delivered along with an MCC that can make everything else on site (one reason defenders will need an MCC).
So after a battle you just process all the stuff not deemed destroyed and get a credit for it. There won't be any physical corporate warehouse to attack and loot. The only way to get anything out of it is to have digital authorization to check out the blueprint original or copy. As far as I know there is no way in New Eden to hack the system, do its safe from pirates. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1032
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 22:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
gbghg wrote:
That's one district with an SRL as the SI, a production facility would make 6m isk a day and we're assuming a corp has one district that is being attacked every day. The simple fact is that it would be uneconomic for a corp to attack someone everyday as a loss guarentee's at least 2 mil isk lost, so some days you're unlikely to be attacked at all. And you're assuming that the corp will pay for every fitting fielded in the battle, in practice most people fund their own fittings as much as possible and they'll be able to because the players not the corps will get the money and salvage from these battles. As for your last point the a team is unlikely to be on every time a district is vulnerable and a good ceo will make sure to rotate participation of every battle that isn't an absolutely must win
You are correct in that any one corp won't be able to fund a 20M attack every day, but you forget that there will be alot of landless corps that can take turns attacking you. To take that into account you need to assume a large enough district supply that there isn't a steady stream of landless corps queuing up to attack every existing district every day.
It also assumes that the players will be paying the cost of their own gear which is to say they are funding PC from farming public matches for ISK and PC won't be paying for itself. That makes PC a Peacocks' tail. Something that you spend resources on to show off how capable you are, but not something that generates worth on its own.
That brag is certainly a valid driver and recruitment tool. It offers non-pub matches which is a big draw. I just want to point out that it likely isn't going to pay for itself, and in that way it's just like our current corp battle system. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1032
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 15:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:@Skihids and anyone else concerned about the isk situation, it is true that PC probably won't be a profitable venture but it will be immensely fun and people are going to want to do it.
The fact that you're only going to be fighting 1 battle per district per day (at most) means that there's still going to be plenty of time to earn isk from random pub matches, hopefully funding your war efforts.
If we are correct about this, the whole argument about splitting corps to get a head start is moot.
Get a head start on what? A money losing venture?
More likely most corps will have one district that they battle over daily because these battles will be extremely expensive at an estimated cost of 350-450k ISK per death (200k for the clone and 150-250k for proto gear and vehicles).
Assuming CCP is extremely generous and awards us half the enemy losses in equipment, suits, modules, and vehicles you will need a KDR of 2 to break even. By definition the average is 1.
A lot of folks are now thinking, "I've got better KDR than that!", but they aren't thinking that everyone will be hand picked for these battles and will be running full proto with some officer weapons. The groups that do this will be getting better fast so the battles won't be so one sided as pub stomps are today. Even the winners may be losing money a good deal of the time because anything less than a 2:1 stomp won't break even (for the attackers, the defenders get the small stipend from clone production).
It will be a hell of a lot of fun for those who can afford to play the PC game, but it's a hobby, not a business venture. |
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Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1032
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Posted - 2013.03.17 16:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Meconium Blue wrote:Forgive me if this has been asked already I stopped reading about page 25. I also admit that I do not fully understand the WP system....But
Q(1. With friendly fire would it be possible to have logi's shoot each other than repair in order to boost WP so that orbital strikes can be called in?
Q(2. Are clones only for corp use? Or will the "Lone Ranger's" of the game get there chance in black market clone sale's?
Triage points can only be earned by repairing someone who has recently damaged an enemy unit. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1033
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Posted - 2013.03.17 16:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
LT Dans Legs wrote:Yes, but dont forget about the resources gained by owning a planet. If you have good Eve support then you should be ok right?
What, the 40 clones produced per day by an unlocked district? I've taken that into account. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1033
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Posted - 2013.03.17 16:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
The basic problem with PC as a business venture is that the rewards of district ownership are dwarfed by the cost of maintaining that ownership.
If you win every battle your corp earns 4M/day (assuming you are selling all clones manufactured. In reality you will lose most of that number in battle). Lose some battles and that production figure goes down. You can't reimburse your members for losses out of that tiny sum, so the real burden of ownership is paid by the mercs who volunteer to defend your district.
At the point you own a single district your clones are literally priceless because you can't buy any more. That means you aren't going to invite anyone into battle who isn't running full proto gear and knows how to use it. That makes the fight expensive for your members. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1034
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 23:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:This is fantastic discussion guys, we are loving the breakdown and perspectives people are providing.
Regarding the proposed numbers, if it turns out that owning districts is not worthwhile and corporations are not motivated to fight over them then we will very likely re-balance things so that they are.
I imagine the more profitable a district is the more it will be fought over, maintaining a balance.
Taking a district is like buying a trophy that yields a certain payback. Part of he payback is monetary, part is the prestige of owning it, and part is the opportunity for non-pub matches.
The amount of prestige is proportional to the difficulty of keeping hold of it. The money is self explanatory, and the value of non-pub matches is proportional to the availability of other non-pub matches. FW would devalue it by being cheaper.
As long as you managed to keep the prestige high you wouldn't have to make them ISK positive. If you try to make districts ISK positive they will just get fought over harder. You would end up having to make the supply of districts large enough to satisfy demand and that would reduce conflict.
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Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1039
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Posted - 2013.03.19 04:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
You have a problem when a corp can win every battle but still lose their district.
With a minimum clone loss of 150, the attackers won't bring any less. That means the defenders would lose 75 clones if they managed a win with a 2:1 KDR. That's what you need to just break even (assuming you don't have other clones available to move).
So less than a 2:1 ratio will result in a whittling down of available clones even if every battle is won. Eventually the defender will be cloned out of their district.
Things will go better for the defenders if they can win by MCC destruction, but I don't think by much.
You need to balance the replacement rate against expected losses at a decent KDR. Demanding 2:1 is a bit much. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1042
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Posted - 2013.03.19 12:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
The defender losing the district even when winning each battle can happen when they are constanty attacked by starter packs.
A corp with deep pockets can wipe out a smaller corp simply by outspending them. This can be done via a splinter corp if they currently own a district.
It's expensive, but not prohibitively so if you manage to keep it close to 1:1. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1052
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Posted - 2013.03.20 04:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
How does the attrition attack on a defender who goes 1:1 and manages to win each battle by a few clones go if the attacker is using clone packs rather than districts for an unlimited clone supply?
This could be done by a corp with no district, or through a splinter corp if it does. |
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