Thanks for the clarification.

I can see the corps with better KDRs specialising in long range attacks: only 20 clones arrive safely to fight the 100+ defenders, but that is enough to do the job. Larger corps with lower KDRs would specialise in short range attacks. Room for everyone.

so i take it these districts will be like the customs office in eve, to start off with they are owned by an NPC corp, and you have to destroy them to plant your own.

would this mean you will have to fight some NPCs to take over the planet initially ? or would you just have an empty corp battle ?

or did i completly miss read something and jumped to a conclusion?

Sadly my question from p15 was omitted so I doggedly try again

Do you plan any link between PC and FW?

Possible scenario :

Corp A with 100 members split and make 100 corp.
They put in the same alliance.
Each corp take a distric.
Then, they all going back to the 1st corp --> they own 100 district the first day.

I know that districts are own by the corp, and not the alliance. Just to be sure that you thought about this ;) !!!

100 members donating 20M isk. Not a big deal, I have 150M isk currently put aside for donations to PC personally, and I get it from afk farming casually.

I think this requires some looking into, because the initial boost from this uncontrolled clone amount growth allows for insane expansion speed. If someone does this and others don't, the someone will have all the clones required to defend whatever they please.

A corp splitting into 100 corps to each pick an initial district with player donated clones, then merging into a megacorp starting from day one with a major clone advantage from 100 districts. I think this really is a mechanic that needs to be regulated.

Thanks for the clarification. Is there a limit in place on how many clones the corporation can buy from day1? If there is, it makes sense to split corps into smaller ones to bypass this limit and fast expand.

Doesn't matter, as a CEO/director you can choose to produce or not clones... And it would takes 2 days to split 20 corps to 10. Another 2 days from 10 to 5 ...

Well, one week and you get it.

Absolutely, this is why there should not be a limit in place on how many clones a corporation can buy from day1 - otherwise it can be circumvented by making many small corps, which feels dull.

Day1) Alliance makes ton of small crops and flips a few regions.
Day2) Small corps move to bottleneck systems and merge by dropping slowly to 1 member corps that are left holding planets in deep region fortresses.
Day3) Merged big corps slowly take over the 1 member corp planets, while the small corps sell clones to make isk and ease the planet flip.
Day4) Alliance holds a few regions bastion by bottleneck systems and massive clone production from fastly flipped planets.

Bit excaggerated, but definitely better than having one corp slowly expand.

Hehe,
1) set attack period to hour before downtime
2) go flip a null cannon by attacking 2 minutes before DT
???
3) Profit

There is, regional bottleneck systems and travel mechanics.
Also, which would you prefer?

10x 16man corp able to defend during one hour timeframe daily, flipping with 1000 initial clones from day one and starting with 10 districts

1x 160man corp flipping with 100 initial clones, starting with one district

^ The obvious winner is the 10 corps, because their initial pace is 10 times more and they can set defense to keep a few places daily with small numbers. The 10 corps will have 10 times the initial clone production as opposed to the one corp.

This is why the 100 clone cap needs to go IMHO. It makes no sense to have a big corp in the beginning, in relation to this. Corps can be merged by giving off the districts when there is spare time, in the meanwhile you are generating isk from them as you would on the big corp.

You are missing the obvious scenario of taking a 10x lead start in clone production by splitting into 10 corps, as opposed to slowly growing. This is a massive advantage, and there is no reason to start off 10x slower than you could by splitting. Corp mergers will happen by moving mercs between corps, selling clones off district and attacking with time frame play, giving easy access to the planets.

Now the thing gets viable by bottleneck systems allowing holding of these fortress regions from the external boundary. Give a month, and split corps will have taken a region, are sitting in bottlenecks making it impossible for external attack, and are slowly flipping over the planets inside deep region protection to form the megacorp.

Splitting is an artificial and utterly stupid mechanic, opposed to just doign the same thing with one corporation like intended. It still gives such a huge speed advantage to alliances it will be the way to expand, if this goes through as is. If you play a game of production and expansion, and have the choise to 10x your first weeks production speed and initial resources, you either take it or lose.

10x is of course just an arbitrary number.

I have corp X with 200 members.

Day of release each of my 10 directors create their own 1 man corps.
Each of them and the "mother corp" takes a district (11 total)

The sub corps sell any created clones, the mother corp slowly builds clones and "buys out" each sub. (abandoned and instantly retaken by mother corp)
If attacked the sub corps pulls in the mother corp to help defend.

corp will have 10 districts in 8 days...

at least i think?????? or can you only take 1 district a day?

I imagine the mother corp would come in and dominate those that took advantage of the smaller corp so the smaller corp may loose here and the but the main force is a few districts away and now holds a grudge

I envisage the bigger corps split into multiple smaller ones to take multiple districts at neighboring systems initially. They will be on the same line with 16 members as the 1000 member corp from day one, since the battle is only going to be 16vs16. These split corps will expand to take over a region with its bottleneck systems, pushing everyone else out and holding it. The mother corp will slowly flip the burgers and hold the region afterwards. While they do the flipping, they simultaneously gain tons of isk from clone production as opposed to the 1000 man corp sitting on one district and expanding slowly.

The 1000 players in unexpanded corp will afk farm pubs in insane boredom. Morale will shatter, as the A-team of 16 players gets picked for every fight and the core member gets to fight once during the first month, if lucky. The 1000 man corp will disband or move to steamrolling FW, wishing they had done the corp split exploit like the entities now holding all of nullsec in a blue donut.

There is only an hour window to attack, each day, and all those corps have to save up clones to attack too

The corps that start getting large clone numbers are going to start steam rolling the little guys

It wont be even, some districts will be missed, some corp will get ahead and then out produce the others.

Can you buy/sell single clones? or will they be in batches of 10-100-200?

The only way to buy clones is from Genolution and they only sell packs of 100 for 20 million ISK. Genolution also will only sell to you if you don't own a district. You can sell them from districts you own in whatever quantities you want.

What I want to understand is this:

(another example so people see my concern)

Option A: Corp of 200 members (random number) starts off by getting 1 district. They expand from there on normally.
Option B: Same corp makes 4 alt corps with 5 squad leaders each. These alt corps do the excact same thing as the mother corp would, and they bring mercenaries into fight from mother corp. The 200 member corp reaches its peak districts 5 times faster, creating clones 5 times faster, being able to attack 5 times faster etc.

The only limit here is merc number in both cases, BUT as you have 5 corps you reach the limit divided to those corps 5 times faster. You stomp all competition, because you are able to attack with 5 corps bringing ringers while the single corp would just do its thing slowly.

The thing is, the main corp can still do its thing normally. They just bring ringers from the alt corps, since the player base is the same. So the same 200 players get 5 times more stuff done by making 5 corps so they can utilize their mercs fully from the start.

Now the 200 player corp would die of boredom trying to get fights for all the members, with clone amount being the cap. With 5 corps, you have 5 times the clones to get fights with for a good long while.

It feels intuitively very broken. I don't think the CCP posters have fully gotten an idea of how important it is to start off with alt corps and cross ringer fighting, if not for anything else than getting more fights. The base corp still builds at its pace, while the bonus corps are extra. And they can be eventually merged by giving free wins to base corp.

EDIT: in other words, this effectively bypasses the limit put on purchasing NPC clones by just doing it on alt corps.

My question is if we are going to be limited to one region of low-sec to start is it going to be owned by a particular faction? (Gallente, Minmatar, Amarr, etc.)? That could end up tipping this in favor of folks involved FW for that Empire.

Alliance or corp is just semantics. It's a loose gathering of players.

What's the price of having a large corp's players held back by an artificial limiting factor of a clone supply, when you could bypass it by splitting into multicorp? PC as is sounds to me like a very much split promoting thing. The only way to bypass it.

Now what happens if your large corp loses the initial district over and over, never making it into a phase where you can afford to send in any other players than your A team? The rest leave. You actually ELIMINATE the risk of this by splitting, instead of "risking more". You see which one of the corps takes off best and make it your main corp eventually.

Whats to stop a corp making a dummy corp to attack a bottleneck time and time again and auto losing. If you want to lock one district, it would cost a net 9 million a day to lock one district. Which if it is the right planet, it would be protecting other planets through attrition and the real enemy wouldn't be able to launch an attack, because the dummy corp gets an hour to re-queue up a fight. Thus delaying death through using a 1 man corp that dies 100 times a day.

What if the attacking force losses, other corps can queue an assault? Or does the hour to start another fight only happen if you win?

Maybe a queue system for attackers, once an attacker loses a fight, the next attacker in the queue gets the option to attack and so on. Or maybe a silent bid system where corps put forth extra funds that no one can see, whoever puts forth the highest silent amount gets the right to attack that district. The bid system could be isk or clones, any clones used in the bid get lost as a "side" conflict on who gets to attack. Only losing the difference of the side bid verse the second highest bidder.

Ok, there are some bottlenecks, so a planet with 5 districts would lose 45 mil isk a day, but could be protecting a 25 district planet, so the costs could be worth it. Also, a big corp could make 45 million in a day easy through instant battle matches..

As for transferring funds, its easy. Give 20 million to a corp mate through the give money from the corp menu, and then have that guy leave and join the other corp. Once he is there, he gives the money through donate, and heads back to the main corp to get more money for the next day.

Except if its another decent sized corp that doesn't feel right about making a dummy corp and moving members. They are stuck going through the bottleneck. I for one will never leave my corp. But I would pay isk to another corp to cause havoc on the back lines of said corp. But I would prefer to do the dirty work myself.

Django:
As for the first few weeks or months, I don't care about short term, I am a Duster for life. It could also happen on a small scale though, where one strong isk corp denies a large corp that one last district to complete a planet and move on. Instead they stuck trying to kill a small corp they could easily take out if not for a the loophole of attackers right to launch another attack back to back to back. Theoretically, a bunch of small corps could work together to do this to a large corp and the large corp could never fight back. Unless the small corps run out of money, but 9 mil, like I said before, is nothing for a decent corp to pull down in a day if they really wanted to.

Where am I assuming no defense? This is a separate matter from the first, which can happily be put to rest (exp growth non issue with 250 planets).

The issue is (read carefully):
Big corp cannot use numbers advantage because it only gets 100 clones to start with.
Lot of small corps can use numbers because they each get a start.
Big corp can become lot of small corps and for most purposes merge by ringing players regardless of which small corp is fighting.

With this in place, do you think it's wise for a corp like PRO with 900 members to rely in 1 starting location and 100 starting clones? They could split and profit:
GÇó if one start fails, they have more to switch to
GÇó by having more attack opportunities they can put many players in use
GÇó the players that aren't their prime have their place, as fights abound. less fights that are more important (one corp needs to win, if you have multiple corps a loss won't bring the whole thing down) would mean that only the elite are allowed to fight for the few district fights (few because of clone amount)

This makes splitting a rather mandatory practise for big corps. In fact most corps would be best off with alternate starts just to see which one takes off best. Trust issues? Use alts as directors.

I don't think there's a problem here at all. I see a trade-off, which is exactly what we want from the game.

As I understand the argument, large corps have to decide between alt corp (high admin, fast expansion, weak defense) or single corp (low admin, slow expansion, stronger defense once established) strategy. Smaller corps don't really have this problem.

That's wonderful isn't it?

No right answer, and bigger isn't entirely better.

What happens if PSN goes down during a combat window, but not DUST 514?

I could see this happening and messing up lots of plans and timing. Maybe some get in before PSN goes down, but not kicked out of game, and get to attack a district without the defenders being able to log in to put up a fight.

You should take into consideration the influx of isk that'll come in when dust economy will be linked with the eve one.
The idea isn't bad per se, but the price tag should be closer to the 5 billion isk mark, imho.

Your description works as well for 1 corp = 1 district... So why not multiply the chances, the battles per day, the "fake" production clones for the MOTHER corp (even if you can't share the clones between all the corps), possibility to lock districts from other attack with your own corps (if you have good sync, other corps won't be able to attack you !!!)

Organization, management, logistic, but still a kind of "exploit" in my mind...

Just play the game on multiple districts. Wait for a window. When you've got one, you take a district for your mother corp...

Take it for 2 or 3 sister corps. Don't tell me that some corp won't never find 4-6 really active guys and confidence to hold the scuad leader role in sister corp. And who will attack everyday the "bigger and better" corp ?

Invulnerable, by all means nope. Just bigger and capable of attacking multiple targets.

What is "constant attack"? An 1 hour timeframe, when you can be attacked. 1 hour daily. How does a big corp utilize numbers in this 1 hour timeframe? By having many districts to multiply the usage of numbers.

There is no circle exploit or such, just plain and simple:
GÇó put placeholders on districts and play them as normal corps
GÇó instead of fighting for expansion, you remove placeholders and will not lose the attack clones
GÇó the above fortifies one corp in relation to the same corp fighting for districts and losing clones on hard attack

Again, think of the corps in relation to same corp not split placeholder expanding. The 1 hour daily fight goes for the good players that put the clones to best use. If you have a ton of members, you can just do many corps and feed the strongest child. Players are same - they just join as ringers.

To me, from the given info it follows that split expand is vastly easier and moresustainable than trying to eek out clones to exp.

1000 corp ? And how many real threat for the best corps ? So how many time will they really loose clone ?

I know what you mean, it's just not enough for me.

I don't think the constant attack is actually related to the subject of split expand. Surely it makes expansion hard. Splitting makes it easier but won't ultimately allow you to hold any more (I never claimed this). What I claim is that split expand is a fast shortcut to your maximum districts.

The reason it makes expanding easy is that the expander corp will not need to waste clones on attack.

Missing from this discussion of mechanics is any mention of motivation.

Why as a corporation would I want to plunk down that first 20M ISK? What am I getting for my money? Is this a wise business decision? Is there sufficient ROI to warrant this action?

As described so far the only advantage of PC is to produce ISK, so I am buying future ISK with current ISK. There are two cases, either PC is an ISK fountain pumping more money into the DUST universe, or it is an ISK sink.
From what IGÇÖve read so far CCP wants constant warfare so itGÇÖs going to be a sink. Each battle will see significant clone and equipment loss. Sure, the winning side might break even or come out ahead slightly, but in aggregate there will be a loss with CCP raking its take off the top of each battle. By definition the average corp is going to lose half its battles and therefore end up with an overall ISK loss.

With no EVE link all that money is coming from corp members farming public matches for ISK. ThatGÇÖs a lot of farming, especially if you donGÇÖt get picked to join the A-Team for the actual battle. How long are members going to contribute? This feels like the current corp battle system with some window dressing. The only motivation to run them is relief from constant public matches.

The level of conflict has to be fairly low for PC to be an ISK faucet for a corp, and that means constant expansion of the frontier. If you make the districts worth too much you will motivate more corps to fight for them until they are once again unprofitable.
As I see it you just canGÇÖt balance it on an ISK basis. You have to be buying something else for your money than more ISK. What is that, and is it enough?

Can we please have an API available to us BEFORE this gets released?

That's just it though. You have to or you lose to the attacker who brings high end gear. Using milita gear on a 200K ISK clone is like fitting a Sagaris with militia mods. False economy. If your clone costs far more than your fitting you aren't protecting it well enough.

I heard in a video that eve players will be able to give dust players contracts. What will the eve players have to gain. Will they get some of the isk, or will they need clones too. Also, I'd like to see eve players participating more in battles. Also, maybe some kind of faction hub would be cool

How will taking your first district work? I understand you buy the clone package, and take an unoccupied district, but what happens after that?

Are you allowed to set the first Reinforcement timer without the penalty of locking the district, thereby allowing you to attack again? Or is the Reinforcement timer already set? Or do you get the first batch of clone reinforcements as soon as you take an unoccupied district and thus don't need to worry about the Reinforcement timer right away?

At this point, I don't see the reasoning behind defending your district. Defenders have no advantage, and you can always take it back. But if you do decide to defend it, what if you are in a small corp and everyone is offline? Will the enemy just take it for free

What, the 40 clones produced per day by an unlocked district? I've taken that into account.

This was likely already asked, but if not:

Will the free precision strikes be removed from these battles?

If not, what is the actual benefit of maintaining orbital superiority?

The Reinforcement timer is what determines not only when you're allowing people to attack the district, but also when you receive clones. In other words, you'd be getting the clones from whatever produces them in each district.

The wiki says you get clones at the beginning of the reinforcement timer, but it also says changing that timer locks the district. That means, if on the first day of PC, you take an unoccupied district, then if you have to set the Reinforcement timer and thus lock your district, there's nothing you can do for the next 24 hours, since locking a district means you can't attack from it, correct?

If this is the case, then it seems to me that doing the sub-corp strategy of taking a district and then just abandoning it right before your mother corp attacks it is going to be the only truly viable way of expanding quickly in the beginning. Otherwise, you'll have to fight not only the 100 clones someone has in a district, but also whatever clones they've produced through the Reinforcement timer, plus the fact that you have to wait 24+ hours to actually be able to attack.

In other words, the earliest you could take another district (assuming it's occupied after those first 24 hours, which I'm guessing almost all will be) would be a full 3 days later--one to wait for lockdown to turn off, one to announce you're attacking and hit the first time, and one to kill off all the clones during the second attack (since the district would have more than 100 clones in it by that time). As opposed to requiring 1 day (for expansion) for the sub-corp strategy since you won't have to wait the additional 24+ hours it would normally take to announce you're attacking and another additional 24+ hours to hit the district the second time to drive off any remaining clones.

If my district is going to be attacked and I cant find anyone in my corp to fight, can you just invite 16 players in from other corps. Or does the squad leader have to be in my corp and then go out and fill a squad with players outside the corp?

Thanks. Speaking as a blueberry, I hear ya. Better than nothing though, you might get lucky. I was thinking of something like having a chat channel with full squads looking for a fight, if you see a name you recognize then send them an invite to fight to defend your district.

Actually technically you only need 1 person online because you can have them create the squad of 6, pull the outside corp members in to the battle then drop squad and repeat for the remaining squads.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough. So let's take an example:

Corp A takes their first district at 1:35pm.
They then set their Reinforcement timer for 2:00-3:00pm.
Now Corp A has 140 clones and could theoretically take another unoccupied district, except for the fact that the first district may be Locked, preventing an attacking action.

The question is basically, what is the Reinforcement timer set to when you first conquer an unoccupied district? And if the first Reinforcement timer on any unoccupied district recently occupied didn't come with the Lock penalty, then PC would be interesting during the first few days. Instead it looks like nothing is going to happen for 3 days. 1 to set the timer and wait to get out of Locked status, 1 to set an attack and wait for the 24 hour notice, and possibly 1 needed to attack again to defeat any remaining clones if there were more than 100 the first time you attacked.



I think you're wrong here. If a mother corp coordinates well enough, they'll only have to wait that initial 24 hours during which their district will be Locked due to the Reinforcement timer. After that, the sub-corp can simply abandon the district a minute before the mother corp sets an attack on the district. The mother corp will be able to take over the district immediately because it's unoccupied. In another 24 hours they can do the same thing with another district one of their sub-corps own. 3 districts in as many days without having to fight one battle (though they may have to defend once or twice if one of their sub-corps gets hit).

(Depending on what Surface Infrastructure they have, it could actually be 4 districts in 3 days, because they could launch another 100 from their very first district on day 3, due to clone accumulation.)

If corp A have 450 clones, can A move 100,100,100,100 clones to four hostiles districts on the same day?

How to change offline to online ? I mean if defender lost MCC, how can defender change the offline state ?

When corp A keep attacking corp B district, can corp B attack corp A district on the same day or the following day ?

How long will the locked state keep ? 1 hour at most ?

What is called friendly corp ? in same Alliance ?

http://i.imgur.com/tcoH7Bi.png Is this correct or wrong?

http://i.imgur.com/pq84I96.png Is this wrong ?

Your math appears to be off. You say you can lock a district for, assuming you have a production facility, 2 million ISK.

Starter pack costs 20 million ISK, gives 100 clones
District defender wins, gets 20 clones
Total clones sold is 80 (60 from production facility and 20 from starter clones), or 8 million ISK.
You lose 12 million ISK.

If you try and lock the district by attacking from another district you are paying the fee in ISK and clones to move, you have to do a minimum of 100 clones, and at most you produce 60 clones so it is not sustainable that way.

If you kill them you don't get the 20 from them at the end though.

With Django's exploit, you'd want to be running a 1 man Corp with a go-between delivering money so he doesn't have to earn all the costs for himself.

And you have to choose between the extra 20 clones/2 million ISK, or the extra 5 million from clone destruction.

So you're 20M down, and another 11 million (at most) up after each day. 9 million ISK a day may not be huge by EVE standards, but it's definitely not sustainable on its own, and the more territory you hold, the worse it becomes.

Damn no !!!

You will increase the splits corp "issue" ... If you stil need a minimum of 100 clones to attack...

Or it could be a real big war on day 1 !!! Well, we had rest enough, let's do some sport !!!

How so?

Day 1

Take one district with main corp.
x districts with sisters.
1 sister attack a district (empty or not ?) with 199 clones, is that possible ?
Main attack the 1st sister with 100 clones.

It could be 3 districts for main on day 1.

Or as I said, a damn war ....

And what if money is not a problem ?
And this will be interesting to have a lots of battles day 1.
We are hungry !!! ;)

1) When someone attacks a district it is set as under attack and cannot be attacked by anyone else. To avoid district sniping for 1 hour from the time a battle starts only the currently attacking corporation can launch another attack. This means they can ensure they are the ones to grind a district down.

2) No comment on this.

there are 1000 corps on this game?
corps that actually fight too?

Tbh, 40M is a bigger cost with ISK value today, that's for sure...

Much more difficult to deploy this with 10+ districts, even with a huge and well organize corp as we don't have access to the corporation taxe today ... So it will decrease the massive effect that we could see with 100 clones = 20M.

i see the vast majority of those corps being turned off after the initial failed attempt to take districts off someone and head back to IB or FW tbh

I don't quite understand the exclusivity period. I realize the corp that attacks gets first dibs to attack again, but does that 1-hour exclusivity period include the attack itself or just setting the attack?

In other words, if we attack at 2:00-3:00pm, and want to attack again, will we be attacking at 3:00-4:00pm or will we have to set an attack and it will launch at 2:00-3:00pm the following day?

Also, does having your district in a state of Under Attack prevent your district from attacking anyone else?

Hey, was the remote clone bomb topic beat to death already? Has it been discussed?

Planned mechanic loveliness:
Attacking 6 clone jumps gives a survival rate of 20%, making this the business of the very best out there.
The clone projection makes logistical borders and creates local empires.

Metagame problem:
The above cool thing is ruined by dropping genolution clone bombs from alt corps, giving 100 (or 200) clones instantly anywhere on the map. Metagaming around clone projection breaks logistical borders and would be pretty shattering when thought in the grand New Eden future nullsec content.

Solutions?

• Make this an acceptable form of force projection and limit the strenght by sticking with a low genolution clone pack amount.
• System upgrades resembling cynosural jammers, that limit the genolution attack strenght on districts or remove the possibility.
• Genolution clones cannot be used in nullsec; you need to expand to nullsec from lowsec.

If you do this the destruction of the MCC will be the deciding factor in the outcome of most of these early matches, if not all. I suppose that's OK, however, I recall it being said that it was to be skirmish mode for the sake of a timer ending the match in due course so that a lone remaining clone couldn't hide out and prolong the match or other strange scenarios ensuing.

It's all fine and dandy I suppose but it does seem a bit odd somehow.

Skirmish for the larger map (I assume) and a timer.
But clone count is what really matters in a battle..
But most battles will end with the destruction of the MCC if put at 200 clones.
Which is just there for the sake of the timer.

How about removing all but one hackable points but leaving in the MCCs to fire at each other and just increase their damage?
You still have your timer.
Possible destruction of the MC
Puts the focus on fighting and clone count.
Keeps the better, larger maps with the good (safer) spawn points and lines to launch the initial attack.

Just a thought.

Very curious as to your reasoning for the 200 clone count.

Good to know, thanks.

And just to clarify, a district keeps producing clones during the Reinforcement timer even if the status is "Under Attack", right (assuming they haven't had their MCC destroyed in an earlier battle)?

Indeed, as an attacker you will have to fight through the clones produced that reinforcement cycle when you attack.

The one problem I have with this purchasing clone system is by using alt corps this is a quick and easy way for a corp to purchase clones of the npc market although at a hefty price of 1mil a pop so by using an alt corp and consitantly attacking a district until corp supplies are full is going to be a common practice when a corp takes over a district/

while expensive a large corp will not care.
For example corp A captures district B (either at beginning first come first serve or by depleting the opponents clone count).
corp A has a alt corp C set up and ready soon as the system becomes unlocked they attack with corp C after 24hours and a battle they instantly win the stock of the system has gone up by 40-60 from district and 40 from the battle if they have not reached cap yet they attack again for another 40mil and another 24hours of invun means after the auto win battle corp A now has a district that is fully supplied in clones without the need of any moving of clones around districts,

so using this system they can keep all districts at max clones never having move around clones causing districts to have less then max apart from when a district attacks.

though saying all this i understand this will cost corp A a lot isk to maintain (which large corps will have either way) and apart from making it more difficult for a corp to attack a district it has lost agaisnt multiple times
one idea could be as every battle lost causes clone attrition for example

Corp B attacks corp A with 200 clones after first attack corp B was defeated,
in the hour exclusive period they select to battle again with 200 clones in this next battle due to the first loss the clones suffer attrition and 10% are lost before the battle starts meaning clone count for next battle is 180

if corp B is defeated again and choose to attack in the exclusive period again the attrition is 20% (two consecutive losses) resulting in only 160 out of 200 clones availble for battle (SI upgrades could be used to reduce attrition amount)

With this system a corp will have a limit to many losses they can suffer before the match is unable to take part (after 5 consecutive losses corp B is no longer able to supply the 100 clone minumum count) meaning corps have to carefully decide if they want to keep pushing an attack even though they are loosing or retreat for a time and attack once penalty is lifted (if they attack outside of the exclusive timezone)

A single win could either reduce the attrition or cancel it all together. this would stop Corp A from using an alt corp to keep there district safe using exclusive timer as there is a limit to how many battles can be thought this way and with reduced clones earned from each fight makes it more expensive to keep this up.

although it is possible for Corp to switch between multiple alt corps it would mean the district would at some point become accessable to another corp at some point rather then at current where a district may never become at risk if the isk supply is large enough

Ok, so the 200 clone count makes it more expensive to attempt to lock down your district with alt corps. If this is the reasoning behind it then I'm happy. Perhaps there are other ways to reduce the alt corp abuse.

Limiting:
How often you can switch corps
How often you can create a corp
How often an individual merc can unsuccessfully attack a district.

Just thinking out loud.

I can't see any of them stopping this exploit because you could just have alts creating and controlling the sub-corps.

And what if it is a legitimate continuous attack from an external corp? You could really really want to take that district but keep failing over and over but keep trying (unlikely but could happen).

It's unclear to me whether or not we will be able to have more than one SI building in the same district. I saw somewhere that the main building will be the fighting area for battles, which seems to indicate we'll only get to have one. But if that's the case, can we sell/do we get any ISK for selling off the SI already seeded?

I guess I'll just keep asking questions.

I see that sending reinforcements to your districts Locks it, but it doesn't prevent any clones from being produced does it?

Like if I send Reinforcements at 01:00 and the Reinforcement timer is set to 02:00, I'll still get all those clones the district would normally produce at 02:00 right? Also, the clones I'm using to reinforce arrive immediately, right?

Yea it's more of a "I'd like the information just to have it, in case I think of something", but the changing of stats might have its uses.

You can't move them multiple times, I don't think. At least not from the district they move to, because Locking a district is defined by "Not able to have actions applied to it but can be attacked by others."

In other words, you couldn't move 200 clones from District A to District B and then 100 from District B to District C all within 24 hours, I don't think. Though you could move 100 from District A to District B and 100 from District A to District C all within the 24 hours since the district that sends the clones doesn't lock, only the one that receives them (link)

Oh that's interesting, so the Lock timer is directly related to the Reinforcement timer? I thought it was in Lock status for 24 hours regardless of when you do something that Locks it.

Lore-wise, it makes sense that the travel time is short enough that they're definitely going to show up during the next reinforcement window, and because of that, travel time is negligible. Also, it's possible to handwave with the explanation that preparations for transport will be known about in advance, hence why the starmap updates as if the transport happens instantly.

It also makes sense that when transported, the clones need to be transferred to on-site storage facilities, thus necessitating a delay before they can be repackaged to be shipped elsewhere.

I like the new numbers as they give a better monetary incentive to actually holding districts. On the battle front however the focus changes from cloning out the enemy [100] to win via MCC. [200] Have you considered tweaking anything on the battle side to sway it back toward cloning out? Or is this strictly skirmish for now?

Also. Will we be able to see what map we are attacking / claiming?

Also will this come in a single update, or will you launch the starmaps and things previously for PS3 users?
[I ask this for people who do not play EVE as they may have a disadvantage on the day one mad scramble]

You say Minimum Clone movement is going to be 150 clones ... is that only for movement to attack?
What about moving clones from one District you own to another District you own (reinforcement)?
Is it going to stay at 100 Minimum or will that be raised to 150 Minimum also?
If Reinforcement Movement is raised to 150 clone Minimum it will ALWAYS be a severe drain on the donating district ( 1/2 or 1/3 of Maximum clones allowed in District depending on SI in District) and leave it vulnerable to attack from another Corp in its weakened state.

Will you really be selling them? Wouldn't you instead be moving them to the front lines to bolster your forces for other attacks and defences? I mean the average front line territory under sustained assault needs between 2 and 5 territories to support it depending on which currently suggested system you choose..

What's this new number? 'Genolution base cost to move: 500,000 -> 3M ISK'

The defender losing the district even when winning each battle can happen when they are constanty attacked by starter packs.

A corp with deep pockets can wipe out a smaller corp simply by outspending them. This can be done via a splinter corp if they currently own a district.

It's expensive, but not prohibitively so if you manage to keep it close to 1:1.

It's the current Skirmish mode being used, so I would guess no to those questions (although some of the current maps favor one side to a certain point, Manus Peak for instance).

But I agree that we need actual defender vs attacker modes soon, but I think they are aware of that.

Sorry if this has been covered but just got in from work after thinking about this and wanted to get it down while on my mind

Surely there should be a mechanic in place to allow defenders to reinforce to at least their pre attack levels with some room to also increase numbers if they successfully defend their district. Otherwise there is a possibility that corps will just abandon districts if they know that a large corp/ alliance has targeted them and may even be coerced into doing so by prior arrangement.

A big alliance with big resources can basically guarantee victory through attrition even if they lose some battles. It doesn't seem right that a defender may win a hard fought victory but with significant clone losses which under the current system it can't replace in 24 hrs if a well stocked alliance continues its attack with a restocked clone attack force.

In this scenario the defenders could lose their district even though they win every battle!

A small corps that realizes this in a fully stocked district can abandon and receive either 30 mil or 45 mil for selling their clones which gets them a new clone pack. They are not in as great a position as they were but better than kicked from district with all clones destroyed and they now have the means to go and try and usurp someone they have a chance against with a clone pack.

Big corps that know this can sweeten the deal by prior arrangement with some extra isk and why would the little corps refuse? they can't win over time as a defender and its cheaper for a big corp to part fund an abandonment.

The 100 clone production rate partly mitigates this and it is almost solved if on a PF but otherwise I think this is a real issue.

Under current proposals, district defenders are 100% doomed to fail if up against well stocked rivals even if they win all their battles.

Thoughts?

While it's true that 150 clones a day can be produced by a single district, that's NOT how it works out when you're calculating an attack on an enemy district.

EDIT: Also, if you get your corp paid off, what's to stop you from using that huge wad of cash to launch a war of attrition against the district you just sold and reclaim it? Because if you could negotiate the kind of payout that would support it, why not?

Q1 When will the system expand beyond 250 districts?

Q2 Is it worth while to found a corp on Dust?

Q3 Will ANY other game modes be offered in the future?

Pretty sure when I asked about this, FoxFour confirmed you'll have Precision Strikes at least.

Attacker can only use the dibs hour after battle, it is activated by the ending of the battle for an hour

I think there should be a mechanic to allow a winning defending team to reinforce or to get a production bonus so that they can replenish to the level of clones they were at before battle start

I agree that this so obvious it should have been an automatic consideration! Come on CCP what we're you thinking?

I think you may have a point then that if the defenders can't keep clone loss to a minimum in this situation then they can be rightfully ground down by attrition. Hmmm, not sure, interesting to think on though

A restock of 150 would certainly solve the question of any disadvantage tor winning defenders though

We need more information on how this goes down :
- Does the defending district goes back to online state when RT starts and before attacker decides to use dibs hour to attack again ?
- Can an attacker decide to attack again before or after the fight ? (at the moment, i think it would be after)

You wouldn't NEED to call in reinforcements if you lost less than 150 clones (or 200 with PF), because the next available attack window gives you 2 RTs to restock.

So if a lone wolf can receive Biomass, and Biomass can be sold, yet needs to be bought, would this still occur in NPC market where Biomass/Clones are sold to NPC or would it be direct to player with the involvement of NPC?

Out of 1000 posts 300 went to 5 guys in a cyclic debate about how losing ISK to win is an exploit, but we're all broke!

Vaerana Myshtana had a good idea on skills to boost ISK in post #340. Skihids was right that this is a "peacock's tail" from back in post #738. They guy who doesn't want fanboys responding in post #1078 claims it will be 3 days for all land to be taken, not a 3hour land grab rush. Hmmm, I agree. My corp is top 150 for warpoints, so out of the 250 districts we're involved enough to earn a spot and when I talked to them they weren't interested much when I said we defend the same map everyday until we lose it. I talked with another corp (the EVE player in it said "we can benefit much from an alliance with each other"...typical) that is ranked close to us and they only had 2 people online.

People talk with certainty that corps will split up to take more. I sure hope so! The majority of players are in NPC corps! Tens of thousands in each one! They aren't apart of this. It seems there are so many ways to be punished in the name of balance, but I have a sneaking suspicion all this debate is coming from exclusive EVE players who bought a PS3 to get an edge on the Dust side of things.

PC launch date 6th may, or after we get to experiment a bit with the new dropsuits and equipment?

I'm unclear on one thing after reading the dev blog and the notes here. Is this only for low sec/FW or will null sec corps finally have a use for Dust mercs in their sov space?