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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 189 post(s) |
KEROSIINI-TERO
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
258
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Posted - 2013.03.17 10:22:00 -
[781] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:It'll be cluttered, sorry about this as im poasting bored from work. So, solutions in this gap...
Solution 1: Remove clone and attack limits from corps to even the gold rush playground. Better than promoting split corp advance.
Solution 2: Rethink the timers. Defender set timers are not good in the first attack, instead, the offender should be given first shot. So, free attack time for first offense, AFTER THAT the district goes to reinforce timer set by defender. This makes it slightly harder to play with the flipping timers and clone removal using sold clones as fast flip mechanic. Issue with this is that defense needs to have an advantage, not offense.
Sub solution 2.1: To give defenders an intrinsic advantage, they have all the null cannons in the start of every fight (obvious really). Make defender null cannons do more damage than attacker (targeting facilities). First reinforce timer has a boosted clone reproduction, to offset the initial attack that can result in no show defense because of timezones.
Solution 3: make corporation size affect the number of clones you can purchase from NPC and number of districts you can attack, e.g. 1 clone per member, 1 attack per 100 members daily. Better than solution 1, but has issues with numbers game.
Subsolution 3.1: Planet worth gives an edge to elite mercenary outfits, that can control the really valuable ones. Reinforce planet worth differences! Stacking district mods that affect eve moon mineral harvesting and PI are one solution; having 24 districts to boost technetium yield from an orbital moon would make some planets very coveted and fought over, and only controllable by the best of the best. You could rent the boosts to EVE alliances.
1: maybe that's needed.
2: Definate no. Defender set timer (windows) are better. If we need to give attackers some timers of their choosing, it MUST not be the first. Reason: otherwise all the initial attacks would be at uncomfortable tz, it would make sense to spam with attacks on many districts and as the deffers are more likely to give noshow, it would be too easy to enter the district. And to control several districts would be pain. So the first has to be deffers timer. If succesful, the NEXT could very well be attackers timer! They've made their beach head and earned some initiative as deffers are yanked off from their optimal status.
3: The numbers game... I don't like it as filling nonplayed alts would be the solution to bolster the numbers and gain advantage.
3.1: yes, something like this. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
289
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Posted - 2013.03.17 10:38:00 -
[782] - Quote
I really don't see why the whole split corp thing is an issue. Each of your splits is just as vulnerable as any other single corp out there in PC. If instead you just give single mega corps the option to use their size to an advantage, they will become unbeatable. At least this way every corp (or split) corp has just as good a chance to survive.
Anyone in an alliance (or split corp) will be at a slight advantage because that'll be less other corps to attack them but there's still going to be plenty of other corps attacking you to worry about. |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
165
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Posted - 2013.03.17 12:53:00 -
[783] - Quote
How will taking your first district work? I understand you buy the clone package, and take an unoccupied district, but what happens after that?
Are you allowed to set the first Reinforcement timer without the penalty of locking the district, thereby allowing you to attack again? Or is the Reinforcement timer already set? Or do you get the first batch of clone reinforcements as soon as you take an unoccupied district and thus don't need to worry about the Reinforcement timer right away? |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
289
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Posted - 2013.03.17 13:36:00 -
[784] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:How will taking your first district work? I understand you buy the clone package, and take an unoccupied district, but what happens after that?
Are you allowed to set the first Reinforcement timer without the penalty of locking the district, thereby allowing you to attack again? Or is the Reinforcement timer already set? Or do you get the first batch of clone reinforcements as soon as you take an unoccupied district and thus don't need to worry about the Reinforcement timer right away?
How can you reinforce when you only have one district? Where are these reinforcements coming from? You can only buy one pack of clones before you have a district and can buy no more after.
If you have no district, you select where you want to go and then buy your 100 clones and they get sent there. If it's unoccupied, you instantly claim it and can set your defense window time. If it's occupied and no one else is already set to attack it, you lock it in for attack at its next window after the next 24 hours. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
453
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Posted - 2013.03.17 13:55:00 -
[785] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Parson Atreides wrote:How will taking your first district work? I understand you buy the clone package, and take an unoccupied district, but what happens after that?
Are you allowed to set the first Reinforcement timer without the penalty of locking the district, thereby allowing you to attack again? Or is the Reinforcement timer already set? Or do you get the first batch of clone reinforcements as soon as you take an unoccupied district and thus don't need to worry about the Reinforcement timer right away? How can you reinforce when you only have one district? Where are these reinforcements coming from? You can only buy one pack of clones before you have a district and can buy no more after. If you have no district, you select where you want to go and then buy your 100 clones and they get sent there. If it's unoccupied, you instantly claim it and can set your defense window time. If it's occupied and no one else is already set to attack it, you lock it in for attack at its next window after the next 24 hours. ^ This is how I read it also. I'm only on page 15 of this thread atm, but if we haven't been told the intimate details of the timer rules yet we definitely need to be. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1032
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Posted - 2013.03.17 15:04:00 -
[786] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:@Skihids and anyone else concerned about the isk situation, it is true that PC probably won't be a profitable venture but it will be immensely fun and people are going to want to do it.
The fact that you're only going to be fighting 1 battle per district per day (at most) means that there's still going to be plenty of time to earn isk from random pub matches, hopefully funding your war efforts.
If we are correct about this, the whole argument about splitting corps to get a head start is moot.
Get a head start on what? A money losing venture?
More likely most corps will have one district that they battle over daily because these battles will be extremely expensive at an estimated cost of 350-450k ISK per death (200k for the clone and 150-250k for proto gear and vehicles).
Assuming CCP is extremely generous and awards us half the enemy losses in equipment, suits, modules, and vehicles you will need a KDR of 2 to break even. By definition the average is 1.
A lot of folks are now thinking, "I've got better KDR than that!", but they aren't thinking that everyone will be hand picked for these battles and will be running full proto with some officer weapons. The groups that do this will be getting better fast so the battles won't be so one sided as pub stomps are today. Even the winners may be losing money a good deal of the time because anything less than a 2:1 stomp won't break even (for the attackers, the defenders get the small stipend from clone production).
It will be a hell of a lot of fun for those who can afford to play the PC game, but it's a hobby, not a business venture. |
LT Dans Legs
The Tritan Industries
75
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Posted - 2013.03.17 15:40:00 -
[787] - Quote
Yes, but dont forget about the resources gained by owning a planet. If you have good Eve support then you should be ok right? |
Meconium Blue
REGULATORS OF VALOR Orion Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.03.17 15:41:00 -
[788] - Quote
Forgive me if this has been asked already I stopped reading about page 25. I also admit that I do not fully understand the WP system....But Q(1. With friendly fire would it be possible to have logi's shoot each other than repair in order to boost WP so that orbital strikes can be called in? Q(2. Are clones only for corp use? Or will the "Lone Ranger's" of the game get there chance in black market clone sale's? |
DUST Fiend
Immobile Infantry
2077
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 16:36:00 -
[789] - Quote
This was likely already asked, but if not:
Will the free precision strikes be removed from these battles?
If not, what is the actual benefit of maintaining orbital superiority? |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1032
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 16:37:00 -
[790] - Quote
Meconium Blue wrote:Forgive me if this has been asked already I stopped reading about page 25. I also admit that I do not fully understand the WP system....But Q(1. With friendly fire would it be possible to have logi's shoot each other than repair in order to boost WP so that orbital strikes can be called in? Q(2. Are clones only for corp use? Or will the "Lone Ranger's" of the game get there chance in black market clone sale's?
Triage points can only be earned by repairing someone who has recently damaged an enemy unit. |
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Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1033
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 16:38:00 -
[791] - Quote
LT Dans Legs wrote:Yes, but dont forget about the resources gained by owning a planet. If you have good Eve support then you should be ok right?
What, the 40 clones produced per day by an unlocked district? I've taken that into account. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1033
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 16:51:00 -
[792] - Quote
The basic problem with PC as a business venture is that the rewards of district ownership are dwarfed by the cost of maintaining that ownership.
If you win every battle your corp earns 4M/day (assuming you are selling all clones manufactured. In reality you will lose most of that number in battle). Lose some battles and that production figure goes down. You can't reimburse your members for losses out of that tiny sum, so the real burden of ownership is paid by the mercs who volunteer to defend your district.
At the point you own a single district your clones are literally priceless because you can't buy any more. That means you aren't going to invite anyone into battle who isn't running full proto gear and knows how to use it. That makes the fight expensive for your members. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
780
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Posted - 2013.03.17 17:12:00 -
[793] - Quote
This is fantastic discussion guys, we are loving the breakdown and perspectives people are providing.
Regarding the proposed numbers, if it turns out that owning districts is not worthwhile and corporations are not motivated to fight over them then we will very likely re-balance things so that they are. |
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Ares Lawrens
Phoenix Security Solutions
4
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Posted - 2013.03.17 17:49:00 -
[794] - Quote
why squads of 6? four people are left out
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2048
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 17:49:00 -
[795] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:This was likely already asked, but if not:
Will the free precision strikes be removed from these battles?
If not, what is the actual benefit of maintaining orbital superiority? Have you seen EVE-based Orbital Bombardments in comparison with the Precision Strike? It's the difference between 2 - 4 kills and wiping out the entire enemy team, Proto tanks and all, with a single shot. |
slypie11
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2013.03.17 17:50:00 -
[796] - Quote
At this point, I don't see the reasoning behind defending your district. Defenders have no advantage, and you can always take it back. But if you do decide to defend it, what if you are in a small corp and everyone is offline? Will the enemy just take it for free |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
686
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Posted - 2013.03.17 18:11:00 -
[797] - Quote
slypie11 wrote:At this point, I don't see the reasoning behind defending your district. Defenders have no advantage, and you can always take it back. But if you do decide to defend it, what if you are in a small corp and everyone is offline? Will the enemy just take it for free the point is too cost the enemy as many clones as you can, the more clones you kill, the more isk you cost the attacker, the harder it makes for him to attack you again. also it builds up your reputation as a corp that will fight not dodge battles as some corps are getting a reputation for doing. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
290
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Posted - 2013.03.17 18:12:00 -
[798] - Quote
slypie11 wrote:At this point, I don't see the reasoning behind defending your district. Defenders have no advantage, and you can always take it back. But if you do decide to defend it, what if you are in a small corp and everyone is offline? Will the enemy just take it for free
If you lose, you lose 100 clones (or whatever number you've got left if less than that). If you choose not to defend, you still lose 100 clones. If you lose all your clones on a district, you lose the district. The only way to get more clones if you've lost all your districts, is to buy new ones at a cost of 20M isk.
If you are a small corp and no one is online, you lose 100 clones. But you get to set the time that people can attack your districts at, so set it when most of your corp is likely to be online. If you have less than 16 online at the time of the battle, you could squad up with people outside your corp and bring them into the battle but unless they're people you know and trust, this may be more of a hindrance than a benefit.
For small corps with only just 16 players in, I would probably advise that you are too small to really be doing PC. By all means, you're welcome to try your hand at it but likelihood is you'll struggle. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
290
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 18:15:00 -
[799] - Quote
Skihids wrote:LT Dans Legs wrote:Yes, but dont forget about the resources gained by owning a planet. If you have good Eve support then you should be ok right? What, the 40 clones produced per day by an unlocked district? I've taken that into account.
I think LT Dans Legs is referring to the profit that EvE pilots could potentially make from PI (that is as yet undefined). However, as isk transfer between EvE and Dust will still not be available when this is launched, his point is null. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
290
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 18:18:00 -
[800] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:This was likely already asked, but if not:
Will the free precision strikes be removed from these battles?
If not, what is the actual benefit of maintaining orbital superiority?
Precision strikes aren't and won't be free - you'll still have to earn 2500 WP to get a strike and you'll need an EvE ship in orbit with the right equipment to do a strike, otherwise you get nought. No warbarge strikes in PC - pretty sure CCP Fox Four said this earlier but I may be misquoting...
The attacker can also bring in their own EvE ship to launch strikes but if there are opposing EvE ships in the same district, I imagine they'll be fighting too. This could be awesome! OMG this could be awesome! |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
781
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 18:37:00 -
[801] - Quote
slypie11 wrote:At this point, I don't see the reasoning behind defending your district. Defenders have no advantage, and you can always take it back. But if you do decide to defend it, what if you are in a small corp and everyone is offline? Will the enemy just take it for free
If you choose not to defend you will lose 100 clones and stop production for the day. Those clones and the production cycle equate to ISK you could have had in the corp wallet instead.
Also you need to keep in mind the winner of the battle gets biomass which at the moment is 50% of the value of all the clones destroyed including your own, paid directly to the people participating. Combined with salvage from the enemy team you have every reason to show up to a defense and may in fact make a profit from it. |
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Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
453
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Posted - 2013.03.17 19:06:00 -
[802] - Quote
hershman001 wrote:You say youre turning your attention to the planets... CCP, shouldnt you turn your attention to the broken game mechanics?
- Terrible Hit detection
- Unable to traverse uneven terrain
- Poor controls all around for vehicles, dropsuits and interfaces.
- Text, font, icons, reticule, and other HUD items that are color washed invisible half the time.
- Ridiculous low fov for an fps.
- Invisible walls in every map
This is only the beginning. What is being done to fix these issues? +1 for the forst three points. Other points have validity too.
Hate to keep on this, but it's a stark reality and not really being publicly addressed by CCP, in spite of their stated commitment to prioritize core mechanics.
OK, i'll shut up about it. For now. |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
166
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Posted - 2013.03.17 19:32:00 -
[803] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Parson Atreides wrote:How will taking your first district work? I understand you buy the clone package, and take an unoccupied district, but what happens after that?
Are you allowed to set the first Reinforcement timer without the penalty of locking the district, thereby allowing you to attack again? Or is the Reinforcement timer already set? Or do you get the first batch of clone reinforcements as soon as you take an unoccupied district and thus don't need to worry about the Reinforcement timer right away? How can you reinforce when you only have one district? Where are these reinforcements coming from? You can only buy one pack of clones before you have a district and can buy no more after. If you have no district, you select where you want to go and then buy your 100 clones and they get sent there. If it's unoccupied, you instantly claim it and can set your defense window time. If it's occupied and no one else is already set to attack it, you lock it in for attack at its next window after the next 24 hours.
The Reinforcement timer is what determines not only when you're allowing people to attack the district, but also when you receive clones. In other words, you'd be getting the clones from whatever produces them in each district.
The wiki says you get clones at the beginning of the reinforcement timer, but it also says changing that timer locks the district. That means, if on the first day of PC, you take an unoccupied district, then if you have to set the Reinforcement timer and thus lock your district, there's nothing you can do for the next 24 hours, since locking a district means you can't attack from it, correct?
If this is the case, then it seems to me that doing the sub-corp strategy of taking a district and then just abandoning it right before your mother corp attacks it is going to be the only truly viable way of expanding quickly in the beginning. Otherwise, you'll have to fight not only the 100 clones someone has in a district, but also whatever clones they've produced through the Reinforcement timer, plus the fact that you have to wait 24+ hours to actually be able to attack.
In other words, the earliest you could take another district (assuming it's occupied after those first 24 hours, which I'm guessing almost all will be) would be a full 3 days later--one to wait for lockdown to turn off, one to announce you're attacking and hit the first time, and one to kill off all the clones during the second attack (since the district would have more than 100 clones in it by that time). |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
336
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Posted - 2013.03.17 19:37:00 -
[804] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:hershman001 wrote:You say youre turning your attention to the planets... CCP, shouldnt you turn your attention to the broken game mechanics?
- Terrible Hit detection
- Unable to traverse uneven terrain
- Poor controls all around for vehicles, dropsuits and interfaces.
- Text, font, icons, reticule, and other HUD items that are color washed invisible half the time.
- Ridiculous low fov for an fps.
- Invisible walls in every map
This is only the beginning. What is being done to fix these issues? +1 for the forst three points. Other points have validity too. Hate to keep on this, but it's a stark reality and not really being publicly addressed by CCP, in spite of their stated commitment to prioritize core mechanics. OK, i'll shut up about it. For now. Somewhere back in the threadmonster there's a statement from the devs that there will be lots of stuff in the next release other than PC, including core gameplay changes/fixes. There's a regular pattern over Eve-side of the devs releasing details of some minor changes for the next release, the community then saying "is that all?" and getting all worked up, then finding out that there is way more to it than that. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
291
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Posted - 2013.03.17 20:31:00 -
[805] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:Django Quik wrote:Parson Atreides wrote:How will taking your first district work? I understand you buy the clone package, and take an unoccupied district, but what happens after that?
Are you allowed to set the first Reinforcement timer without the penalty of locking the district, thereby allowing you to attack again? Or is the Reinforcement timer already set? Or do you get the first batch of clone reinforcements as soon as you take an unoccupied district and thus don't need to worry about the Reinforcement timer right away? How can you reinforce when you only have one district? Where are these reinforcements coming from? You can only buy one pack of clones before you have a district and can buy no more after. If you have no district, you select where you want to go and then buy your 100 clones and they get sent there. If it's unoccupied, you instantly claim it and can set your defense window time. If it's occupied and no one else is already set to attack it, you lock it in for attack at its next window after the next 24 hours. The Reinforcement timer is what determines not only when you're allowing people to attack the district, but also when you receive clones. In other words, you'd be getting the clones from whatever produces them in each district. The wiki says you get clones at the beginning of the reinforcement timer, but it also says changing that timer locks the district. That means, if on the first day of PC, you take an unoccupied district, then if you have to set the Reinforcement timer and thus lock your district, there's nothing you can do for the next 24 hours, since locking a district means you can't attack from it, correct? If this is the case, then it seems to me that doing the sub-corp strategy of taking a district and then just abandoning it right before your mother corp attacks it is going to be the only truly viable way of expanding quickly in the beginning. Otherwise, you'll have to fight not only the 100 clones someone has in a district, but also whatever clones they've produced through the Reinforcement timer, plus the fact that you have to wait 24+ hours to actually be able to attack. In other words, the earliest you could take another district (assuming it's occupied after those first 24 hours, which I'm guessing almost all will be) would be a full 3 days later--one to wait for lockdown to turn off, one to announce you're attacking and hit the first time, and one to kill off all the clones during the second attack (since the district would have more than 100 clones in it by that time). As opposed to requiring 1 day (for expansion) for the sub-corp strategy since you won't have to wait the additional 24+ hours it would normally take to announce you're attacking and another additional 24+ hours to hit the district the second time to drive off any remaining clones.
You can't move for an attack on the first day anyway because you need to move a minimum of 100 clones and if you moved 100 clones when that is all you have, you'd be abandoning your initial district anyway. This is the same whether you have 1 corp or many sub-corps and a mother corp. The mother corp would also have to wait until it had enough clones to launch an attack on a sub-corp, even if the sub-corp had abandoned it. Also since abandoning a district causes the reinforcement timer to be removed, any corp with no district could just swoop in and claim it straight away because the mother corp would have to wait until it's own timer had gone 24 hours to have more clones to move there.
Nobody will be able to claim a 2nd district within the first few days, especially since the lack of districts compared to the number of corps means that everyone will be under attack everyday for the first few days if not weeks. There will be no way to expand quickly. |
ca ronic
Moffit Bros
0
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Posted - 2013.03.17 20:53:00 -
[806] - Quote
If my district is going to be attacked and I cant find anyone in my corp to fight, can you just invite 16 players in from other corps. Or does the squad leader have to be in my corp and then go out and fill a squad with players outside the corp? |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
291
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 21:04:00 -
[807] - Quote
ca ronic wrote:If my district is going to be attacked and I cant find anyone in my corp to fight, can you just invite 16 players in from other corps. Or does the squad leader have to be in my corp and then go out and fill a squad with players outside the corp?
From the outset you can only bring people into the battle if the squad leader is in the corp - squad size is going up to 6, so that means you only technically need 3 corpmates online at the time of the attack.
That said, you get to choose what time each day you want to defend, so just set it for when you're most likely to have plenty of your corp online.
Eventually the plan is to be able to put the contracts up for the public to defend your districts but given the state of blueberries, would you really feel safer doing that? |
ca ronic
Moffit Bros
0
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Posted - 2013.03.17 21:16:00 -
[808] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:ca ronic wrote:If my district is going to be attacked and I cant find anyone in my corp to fight, can you just invite 16 players in from other corps. Or does the squad leader have to be in my corp and then go out and fill a squad with players outside the corp? From the outset you can only bring people into the battle if the squad leader is in the corp - squad size is going up to 6, so that means you only technically need 3 corpmates online at the time of the attack. That said, you get to choose what time each day you want to defend, so just set it for when you're most likely to have plenty of your corp online. Eventually the plan is to be able to put the contracts up for the public to defend your districts but given the state of blueberries, would you really feel safer doing that?
Thanks. Speaking as a blueberry, I hear ya. Better than nothing though, you might get lucky. I was thinking of something like having a chat channel with full squads looking for a fight, if you see a name you recognize then send them an invite to fight to defend your district. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
293
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Posted - 2013.03.17 21:22:00 -
[809] - Quote
ca ronic wrote:Django Quik wrote:ca ronic wrote:If my district is going to be attacked and I cant find anyone in my corp to fight, can you just invite 16 players in from other corps. Or does the squad leader have to be in my corp and then go out and fill a squad with players outside the corp? From the outset you can only bring people into the battle if the squad leader is in the corp - squad size is going up to 6, so that means you only technically need 3 corpmates online at the time of the attack. That said, you get to choose what time each day you want to defend, so just set it for when you're most likely to have plenty of your corp online. Eventually the plan is to be able to put the contracts up for the public to defend your districts but given the state of blueberries, would you really feel safer doing that? Thanks. Speaking as a blueberry, I hear ya. Better than nothing though, you might get lucky. I was thinking of something like having a chat channel with full squads looking for a fight, if you see a name you recognize then send them an invite to fight to defend your district.
Yeah, that's a great idea and something I'm sure people will set up when this comes. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
783
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Posted - 2013.03.17 21:30:00 -
[810] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:ca ronic wrote:If my district is going to be attacked and I cant find anyone in my corp to fight, can you just invite 16 players in from other corps. Or does the squad leader have to be in my corp and then go out and fill a squad with players outside the corp? From the outset you can only bring people into the battle if the squad leader is in the corp - squad size is going up to 6, so that means you only technically need 3 corpmates online at the time of the attack. That said, you get to choose what time each day you want to defend, so just set it for when you're most likely to have plenty of your corp online. Eventually the plan is to be able to put the contracts up for the public to defend your districts but given the state of blueberries, would you really feel safer doing that?
Actually technically you only need 1 person online because you can have them create the squad of 6, pull the outside corp members in to the battle then drop squad and repeat for the remaining squads. |
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