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Kaeru Nayiri wrote:

One Eyed King wrote:

[...]
I don't think that any of the changes would result in a significant power increase, and I especially don't understand how a 2.6% change in Minja speed is going to make it over powered, its freaking squishy as hell. Its not like we are just barely not able to outrun bullets and this will make us invincible...

I don't think it will end up changing the meta too much to be honest, maybe some increase in Amarr and Caldari, but I don't think it furthers the divide between scouts either.

From a Minmatar point of view, I will be slightly less unviable.

The key here is that with 1 damp and 1 kin cat in your lows, you would get the whole cake of "sufficient damps" and have more speed than we currently do (which is plenty) for Nova Knifing.

Survivability doesn't necessarily change, but you no longer need to choose between code breakers, plates, damps and speed. You just damp+speed and call it done, maybe use the third slot for breakers or plates if you have a proto suit.

Discussing this has actually opened my eyes a bit. It's not that the minscout isn't competitive (it needs to sacrifice speed to be competitive in PC), it's that the GalScout doesn't need to make that hard choice at all.

Caldari have to give up shield regulators to damp and speed, and only have 2 lows, this is a big deal, they can never have all 3 even at proto.

Amarr can get speed and damps but they're not on the same level. They also have to give up their shields if they want to boost damage with damage mods (akin to NK bonus of min scout). They also have tough choices to make.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 726	Posted - 2015.03.19 20:00:00 - [31801] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: [...] I don't think that any of the changes would result in a significant power increase, and I especially don't understand how a 2.6% change in Minja speed is going to make it over powered, its freaking squishy as hell. Its not like we are just barely not able to outrun bullets and this will make us invincible... I don't think it will end up changing the meta too much to be honest, maybe some increase in Amarr and Caldari, but I don't think it furthers the divide between scouts either. From a Minmatar point of view, I will be slightly less unviable. The key here is that with 1 damp and 1 kin cat in your lows, you would get the whole cake of "sufficient damps" and have more speed than we currently do (which is plenty) for Nova Knifing. Survivability doesn't necessarily change, but you no longer need to choose between code breakers, plates, damps and speed. You just damp+speed and call it done, maybe use the third slot for breakers or plates if you have a proto suit. Discussing this has actually opened my eyes a bit. It's not that the minscout isn't competitive (it needs to sacrifice speed to be competitive in PC), it's that the GalScout doesn't need to make that hard choice at all. Caldari have to give up shield regulators to damp and speed, and only have 2 lows, this is a big deal, they can never have all 3 even at proto. Amarr can get speed and damps but they're not on the same level. They also have to give up their shields if they want to boost damage with damage mods (akin to NK bonus of min scout). They also have tough choices to make. Know what cannot be known.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 8657	Posted - 2015.03.19 20:11:00 - [31802] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: One Eyed King wrote: [...] I don't think that any of the changes would result in a significant power increase, and I especially don't understand how a 2.6% change in Minja speed is going to make it over powered, its freaking squishy as hell. Its not like we are just barely not able to outrun bullets and this will make us invincible... I don't think it will end up changing the meta too much to be honest, maybe some increase in Amarr and Caldari, but I don't think it furthers the divide between scouts either. From a Minmatar point of view, I will be slightly less unviable. The key here is that with 1 damp and 1 kin cat in your lows, you would get the whole cake of "sufficient damps" and have more speed than we currently do (which is plenty) for Nova Knifing. Survivability doesn't necessarily change, but you no longer need to choose between code breakers, plates, damps and speed. You just damp+speed and call it done, maybe use the third slot for breakers or plates if you have a proto suit. Discussing this has actually opened my eyes a bit. It's not that the minscout isn't competitive (it needs to sacrifice speed to be competitive in PC), it's that the GalScout doesn't need to make that hard choice at all. Caldari have to give up shield regulators to damp and speed, and only have 2 lows, this is a big deal, they can never have all 3 even at proto. Amarr can get speed and damps but they're not on the same level. They also have to give up their shields if they want to boost damage with damage mods (akin to NK bonus of min scout). They also have tough choices to make. Your Gal Scout observation is spot on, and that has always been the case (particularly because of the module variety and utility for Low Slot Modules). Given the proposal however, I still have to make lots of sacrifices, its just I get a little more wiggle room in terms of circumstances. The biggest change is not having to have the Pro Cloak active when Min/Maxing. We still have to have Proto level suits to dodge Max Scans however, and still have to fill our Low Slots with Complex Damps in order to do so. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1311	Posted - 2015.03.19 20:11:00 - [31803] - Quote @Adipem Nothi I would be good with those changes. I would like range over precision on my gal scout and less cloak blind. I would like cal scout going back to precision and range but even though it is not as much as it had I still think it might be a little OP. 58m is less then the 100m I think we was able to get before. I like but can not see them making cal precision/range king again even at half the range. noi¦Ü+ö+Æßû+(V)Fac¦Üion
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 8657	Posted - 2015.03.19 20:14:00 - [31804] - Quote voidfaction wrote: @Adipem Nothi I would be good with those changes. I would like range over precision on my gal scout and less cloak blind. I would like cal scout going back to precision and range but even though it is not as much as it had I still think it might be a little OP. 58m is less then the 100m I think we was able to get before. I like but can not see them making cal precision/range king again even at half the range. Yeah, until they are able to make the inner circle a fixed number, or make modules only affect Medium and Long range scans, Caldari is stuck. I would be fine with Cal getting range boosts so long as it didn't affect the inner ring. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
sir RAVEN WING Corrosive Synergy 3220	Posted - 2015.03.19 20:23:00 - [31805] - Quote First Prophet wrote: Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: Go on, put a SG on a Min Scout, see what I do... It's better than putting nova knives on the suit. Damn commies stealing our rust suits to use with their brand new knives. Not a single speck of rust on those knives. It's disgusting. It's CCP, they gave a bonus to the wrong race. *My PLC is named 'God's Wrath'* Why? *It strikes you from the Heavens and sends you to Hell.*
First Prophet Nos Nothi 2697	Posted - 2015.03.19 20:23:00 - [31806] - Quote What is cloak blind? People find this this review helpful!
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 2271	Posted - 2015.03.19 20:24:00 - [31807] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Hilmar mentioned DUST, everyone take a shot. Actual footage Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
sir RAVEN WING Corrosive Synergy 3220	Posted - 2015.03.19 20:35:00 - [31808] - Quote First Prophet wrote: What is cloak blind? Where using a cloak fluxes up your Tacnet. Was made to balance the cloak. @Barbershop A Medium frame can fit a cloak almost as well as a Scout. This discovery scares me, and opts me to ask for opinions. *My PLC is named 'God's Wrath'* Why? *It strikes you from the Heavens and sends you to Hell.*
First Prophet Nos Nothi 2697	Posted - 2015.03.19 20:36:00 - [31809] - Quote sir RAVEN WING wrote: First Prophet wrote: What is cloak blind? Where using a cloak fluxes up your Tacnet. Was made to balance the cloak. @Barbershop A Medium frame can fit a cloak almost as well as a Scout. This discovery scares me, and opts me to ask for opinions. I had no idea that was a thing. How long does it last? People find this this review helpful!
sir RAVEN WING Corrosive Synergy 3220	Posted - 2015.03.19 20:40:00 - [31810] - Quote First Prophet wrote: sir RAVEN WING wrote: First Prophet wrote: What is cloak blind? Where using a cloak fluxes up your Tacnet. Was made to balance the cloak. @Barbershop A Medium frame can fit a cloak almost as well as a Scout. This discovery scares me, and opts me to ask for opinions. I had no idea that was a thing. How long does it last? I believe it lasts as long as you have to cloak activated. (I do not know for sure as I know to watch my visor when cloaked._ *My PLC is named 'God's Wrath'* Why? *It strikes you from the Heavens and sends you to Hell.*

Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 2272	Posted - 2015.03.19 20:43:00 - [31811] - Quote sir RAVEN WING wrote: @Barbershop A Medium frame can fit a cloak almost as well as a Scout. This discovery scares me, and opts me to ask for opinions. Cloak is useless unless you're properly damped. If an assault sacrifices the rest of his fit for cloak and damps I say let him run it. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7977	Posted - 2015.03.19 20:59:00 - [31812] - Quote Thanks for all the feedback so far, guys. Lots of good points. Will take a moment to digest ... Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7977	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:00:00 - [31813] - Quote First Prophet wrote: What is cloak blind? Scan Range is reduced by 85% while cloaked. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7977	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:06:00 - [31814] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Haerr wrote: Even quicker Minmatar suits? No thank you! You could give Minmatar a fitting bonus to biotics though... if you really want to. MinScouts do stand to benefit from the proposed damp efficacy bonus. If you think the additional 2.6% speed bump is too much, we can drop it. My goal was to normalize assault:scout speed gaps, which meant widening the gap between MN Assault and MN Scout. Dropping MN Assault speed would accomplish the same, though I don't intend to propose that change in a Scout proposal :p I think this MIGHT be more elegantly addressed with Rattati's HP=Mass idea that was meant to curb movement speed. (I still don't know why he hasn't done it yet as it was his own idea.) Please correct me if I am mistaken in my assumption ! Mass:Movement would solve alot of problems, but it is likely a long way out and even more likely going to be a tough sell to the majority of players. Today's proposal is not intended to be a substitute for a mass:movement model; no reason why the two couldn't co-exist. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7978	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:20:00 - [31815] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Hilmar mentioned DUST, everyone take a shot. Actual footage What has been happening to Dust? There appears to be a timeline behind him. Does anyone know the context? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7978	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:25:00 - [31816] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I think I like it, but I am not sure it addresses the real issues affecting scouts. In the same way that I think Scout Assaults were hurting Assaults, and their existence limited Assault numbers, I think that Assault Scouts are hurting Scout numbers. The proposal's scope does not include infantry other than Scouts. I think it likely that Assault performance will eventually be addressed independently. This is more housekeeping; I'd like to see our class better balanced internally, and I'd like the see previously overwritten roles redefined. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7979	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:42:00 - [31817] - Quote Minmatar Scout Feedback 1. I still want the knife bonus dropped. Unless CCP adds minmatar nova Knives. Replace it with a myofibril bonus. - Prophet. 2. Even quicker Minmatar suits? No thank you! You could give Minmatar a fitting bonus to biotics though... if you really want to. - Haerr 3. ... perhaps with the suspected hard cap for sprint speed the minscout could be adjusted so it hits 11.12 with just 2x kincats? - Duncan 4. I am against the proposed minmatar racial buff (primarily because NovaKnives and Hacking bonus are <3) - Kaeru 5. Right now we have to pick between damps and speed, and the outliers COULD do other stuff with the lows. If we had both speed and damps necessary with just 2 lows, it would be silly to do anything different. - - Kaeru 6. ... don't touch the knives. - Mollerz 7. [i]Given the proposal however, I still have to make lots of sacrifices, its just I get a little more wiggle room in terms of circumstances. - OEK 1. I don't see this gaining traction; MinScouts who hate knives a minority. Racial knives would be pretty cool though. Have you seen the pictures? 2. I think the MinScout's bonuses in a good place; I wouldn't want to trade out hacks or knives for biotics. Further, "biotic man" is something we can use elsewhere. As for tweaking speed, are you sure that 2.6% increase would cause problems? If you look at the current Assault:Scout speed progressions, there is a clear divergence in the Minmatar department. Even if Assault speeds were nerfed as a class, the divergence would remain. 3. Could be wrong, but I don't believe that is a "hard cap" for speed. Pretty sure Old Gav (the less clever version) made that up one day while trying to pitch a 99% efficacy bonus to KinCats. 4. Could've perhaps been more clear. Proposed a slight increase to MinScout speed. Did not propose that we change the MinScout bonuses. 5. 1 damp to beat 21dB scans, plus ... 2 Reds, 2 Breakers, 1 Red + 1 Breaker, 1 Red + 1 Green, 1 Red + 1 Ferro/Reactive ... more build variety in competitive play. I'd run all of the above. 6. Couldn't agree more. 7. You'll have two free low slots with one damp committed to beating 21dB scans. That's twice as many as you have now. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 8659	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:42:00 - [31818] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I think I like it, but I am not sure it addresses the real issues affecting scouts. In the same way that I think Scout Assaults were hurting Assaults, and their existence limited Assault numbers, I think that Assault Scouts are hurting Scout numbers. The proposal's scope does not include infantry other than Scouts. I think it likely that Assault performance will eventually be addressed independently. This is more housekeeping; I'd like to see our class better balanced internally, and I'd like the see previously overwritten roles redefined. I think it works giving that scope, I also think that it will be a little more easy to balance things going forward if we don't have to worry about Gal Scout dampening bonus throwing a wrench into the works. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 8659	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:43:00 - [31819] - Quote Soraya uploaded his video of the Dust round table. Video here. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Bayeth Mal Nos Nothi 2553	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:44:00 - [31820] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: Bayeth Mal wrote: XxBlazikenxX wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Why can't we have standard and proto closer together in terms of effectiveness? It prevents newbies from getting slaughtered overly hard, avoids matchmaking problems, and keeps a progression. It also makes players lose several hundred thousand isk a match, if not more. I would be fine with this as long as the cost of proto gear goes down, otherwise, no. If you can't afford it, don't run it. I can definitely afford it, trust me, I've got isk for days. Then what are you complaining about? We'll bang, OK?

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7979	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:45:00 - [31821] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Soraya uploaded his video of the Dust round table. Video here. Very exciting! Saw Frame walk by in his hat. Is that Rattati talking? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 8660	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:50:00 - [31822] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Soraya uploaded his video of the Dust round table. Video here. Very exciting! Saw Frame walk by in his hat. Is that Rattati talking? I haven't watched it yet, just thought I would let everyone else know. I don't think I could hear what is going on at the computer where I am currently. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Bayeth Mal Nos Nothi 2554	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:53:00 - [31823] - Quote ...I tried this before Shotty... R set a cap at 2 bonuses per suit. If Min refuse to lose knife bonus or hacking then they're stuck with it. There's a reason I ignore Min complaints now. You're better off spending your time trying to propose a new Amarr bonus and leave the other scouts out of it. We'll bang, OK?
Bayeth Mal Nos Nothi 2554	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:55:00 - [31824] - Quote Is it FF or something on right now? We'll bang, OK?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7979	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:56:00 - [31825] - Quote CalScout Proposal Feedback 1. Pretty much everything else i like EXCEPT the CA Scout. The precision efficacy is much better then base scan profile bonus but i don't like the range/passive scans they could achieve with this combo (I never liked that role in the past) - Ares 2. Not sure how I feel about the scan range. Before the Ewar changes I would've been all for keeping them, but now I'm not sure. - Spade 3. I would like cal scout going back to precision and range but even though it is not as much as it had I still think it might be a little OP. - Void Agreed. Will rethink CalScout. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7979	Posted - 2015.03.19 21:57:00 - [31826] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: ...I tried this before Shotty... R set a cap at 2 bonuses per suit. If Min refuse to lose knife bonus or hacking then they're stuck with it. There's a reason I ignore Min complaints now. You're better off spending your time trying to propose a new Amarr bonus and leave the other scouts out of it. The MinScouts can be reasoned with ... just have lock Gav outside and get the rest of them drunk. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7979	Posted - 2015.03.19 22:03:00 - [31827] - Quote GalScout Proposal Feedback: cloakblind effect smells off I agree, Duncan. I'm having a hard time coming up with something unique/desirable/competitive for the GalScout. The backbone of this proposal is the dampener efficacy bonus, and with it, I truly believe we'd see more more evenly distributed usage rates and more variety in competitive play. Let's put our heads together and try to come up with something else for the GalScout. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 8660	Posted - 2015.03.19 22:09:00 - [31828] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: Is it FF or something on right now? Yes. Started today. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 8660	Posted - 2015.03.19 22:15:00 - [31829] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: ...I tried this before Shotty... R set a cap at 2 bonuses per suit. If Min refuse to lose knife bonus or hacking then they're stuck with it. There's a reason I ignore Min complaints now. You're better off spending your time trying to propose a new Amarr bonus and leave the other scouts out of it. But his point is that the Gal Bonus is too good compared to the rest, and it may need some adjusting instead of trying to balance the other 3 suits around the Gal Scouts without leaving one of them as unviable as the Amarr or as OP as the pre Alpha Cals. I don't think making us 2.6% faster is adding a 3rd bonus, and I am fine with such a minor change, and would even be fine with no change if somehow a bit of a speed boost was too much to swallow. What if Gal Scouts had a bonus to cloak duration or cool down? Would that be significant enough? Also wouldn't mind if they got a bonus to SGs like Minja's have knives. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7981	Posted - 2015.03.19 22:22:00 - [31830] - Quote Good Laser Green. Bad Laser Red. - CCP Rattati (I really like this guy) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley



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