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Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:13:00 - [541] - Quote There really is no use continuing this debate. The guys who are used to buying their advantage off of newegg and who want the goofy KBM style game play will likely never understand the concept of preferring a playing field that is as level as possible and leaves the advantages to those who are best at playing the game rather than who can buy the nicest equipment. These are the same type of guys who think modded controllers with macros and rapid fire are legit ways to win at multi player. KBM game play is twitchy and goofball and overall leads to spazzy unrealisitic gameplay and ridiculously over accurate gun play. It's only "superior" in so far as it takes all of the fun and challenge out of FPS by degrading gameplay to a high speed point and click adventure game. :-)
Oryx Offerton Doomheim 61	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:14:00 - [542] - Quote PS move is already probably giving an amount of accuracy that may outbalance the game because people will be aiming incredibly accurately. MAG would be different if it didn't have PS move support because I wouldnt get killed as much, I would atleast have a chance. PC controls wont make a huge difference, but will give players more accuracy over analog stick users... So I think Move and KBM should not be in this game.
Aka-ahn Bragian Order Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:19:00 - [543] - Quote GM Fabulous wrote: Hello everyone. To keep you informed on this subject, KB&M support is coming. We currently plan to release it in the next major beta patch (build). Thank god! Playing FPS with a gamepad if ******* horrible.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:19:00 - [544] - Quote Osiris Greywolf wrote: This is basically my opinion that I posted on a different thread but is my take on the situation with a bit of economics and common sense, (I'd give a few quotes except there appears to be to many to count.) allot of you K\bm guys appear to be coming out with you usual fallback, adapt or die. Well, suffice to say, most of the 60 million PS3 users you are talking about will, by simply responding yes to to the question "Are you sure you want to delete", though my point hear is that a lot of you appear to think that thats ok, we will still have a good game, and we don't want cod kids in here playing with us, a stereotype which makes about as much sense as all eve players are people who are unemployed and have no social lives. All it really takes is a bit of basic economics. The PS3 target market isn't hardcore beta testers, but rather people who incorporate the use of a ps3 into their lives instead of people who incorporate their lives into the ps3. Ergo, one would think that any of the 60 million or so PS3 player would like a game where they actually don't have to spend 60$ to 120$ top of the line Kb\m from Alienware to own. One would also think that considering the fact that people are probably going to research the game and on finding out that to be the best at the game they'll need to get a kb\m, an imput device that a majority of PS3 players are probably going to be alien to for a FPS shooter, are going to be put off. Now, to counter this, you'll probably say, but it's free, to which I say sure it's free, but do you really think thats going to matter Much if the game receives negativity from the PS3 community, which it will when everyone will complain about Kb\m, which they will, judging from the feedback on the forums. Another argument being made is that kb\m is the superior imput device for an FPS. This is something that no rational person would argue against. However what I will say, is that that doesn't really matter. A PC shooter, to be successful needs to cater more to Kb\m to be successful, just as a PS3 shooter needs to cater to to Controller users. Why? Because they are the preferred method of imput, and users will stick with their preferred of imput because thats how they interact with a game. To give an out of video gaming industry example, but one that Is perfectly relevant, just look at macintosh and Microsoft when they first split, one used a closed system, and one used an open system, and each got a different set of users. I could elaborate more, but if you've read this far, your probably getting bored, so I'll leave you there, but if you want me to go on, just ask, and I'll expect that you won't do it nicely. now feel free to misquote me, call me dumb, and tell me to adapt or die, because to be honest, I, like most other PS3 users, won't do either. And for all the reasons you're wrong, it won't be an issue. When all else is the same, the mouse will have the advantage, that's what happens when you use the right tool for the job. You're welcome to use it too. No one cries "hax" when you use a steering wheel in a racing game. At the end of the day, most players will have no clue whether the guy that killed them was using a mouse, a DS3, or a Move (though you can bet they'll probably blame mice, given most of the ignorance and FUD the console kiddies have been spreading.) "Baal Roo" wrote: There really is no use continuing this debate. The guys who are used to buying their advantage off of newegg and who want the goofy KBM style game play will likely never understand the concept of preferring a playing field that is as level as possible and leaves the advantages to those who are best at playing the game rather than who can buy the nicest equipment. These are the same type of guys who think modded controllers with macros and rapid fire are legit ways to win at multi player. KBM game play is twitchy and goofball and overall leads to spazzy unrealisitic gameplay and ridiculously over accurate gun play. It's only "superior" in so far as it takes all of the fun and challenge out of FPS by degrading gameplay to a high speed point and click adventure game. Quite simply, you've no clue what you're talking about, and have never played any of the countless good, tactical shooters on PC. Even PlanetSide, a relatively fast-paced twitchy game, was very heavy on tactics and use of cover. Meanwhile some of the least-tactical, twitchiest games have been console shooters: CoD and Halo spring to mind. Your comparison of the use of a mouse to allow more precise control over actions that are even more precise in real life, to the use of modded controllers to achieve physical impossibilities (turbo button) is disingenuous at best, and absolutely ridiculous at worst. At the end of the day, though, everyone is welcome to use the control scheme they choose to. There's no more level playing field than the one in which everyone gets to make the choice about what they use. All you do by banning control methods is introduce IMBALANCE by forcing people to use inferior, ill-suited controls, and thus expend more effort fighting the ****** controls than actually playing the game. That's not balance, that's a handicap.
Crimson MoonV Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 658	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:19:00 - [545] - Quote You don't see me bringing a modded controller to the arcade. The fact of the matter is using a mouse is an unfair advantage and ccp knows this and will nerf kbm users and Im going to laugh in your face when your AR doesn't do **** on the battlefield because you suck with a 6 axis. Adapt or die scrub. On a side note the game will fail if all the KB/M players are dominating all the console players. Console players will not adapt and buy a mouse. They are going to delete the game off their PS3. This isn't about whining this about actually caring about the future of dust 514. You scrubs that can't aim just want to be catered to.
PEEEEEEETREEEEEEEEEEEEEE Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 781	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:20:00 - [546] - Quote when kb/m does come, its going to be so gimped that it will be impossible to use like most people are used to.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:21:00 - [547] - Quote MAG move was terrible it just seems you were bad the game since the vast majority used DS3 We have yet to see how KB/M is in the game, until then its all speculation tbh
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:22:00 - [548] - Quote Oryx Offerton wrote: PS move is already probably giving an amount of accuracy that may outbalance the game because people will be aiming incredibly accurately. MAG would be different if it didn't have PS move support because I wouldnt get killed as much, I would atleast have a chance. PC controls wont make a huge difference, but will give players more accuracy over analog stick users... So I think Move and KBM should not be in this game. Except the Move controls aren't actually that great, since it uses an edge-push method for your look control, making it literally impossible to circlestrafe effectively. It's actually really bad, on both games. Now if they made the navigation controller handle turning and forward-backward motion, and the Move handle vertical movement of your view, but otherwise be an absolute firing point, THEN it would be an awesome and extremely precise (again, precise, not accurate; all controls are just as accurate, the difference is the level of precision enabled) way to play. As it stands, though, mice offer the most precision, and do the most to eliminate the controls as a factor. Again, though, at the end of the day, it doesn't make much difference what you use, if you're skilled with what you choose to use. It only becomes a tie breaker when you're completely evenly matched in all other ways.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:24:00 - [549] - Quote Crimson MoonV wrote: You don't see me bringing a modded controller to the arcade. The fact of the matter is using a mouse is an unfair advantage and ccp knows this and will nerf kbm users and Im going to laugh in your face when your AR doesn't do **** on the battlefield because you suck with a 6 axis. Adapt or die scrub. Forcing me to use a steering wheel in a platformer is an unfair advantage to the ones used to using steering wheels for platformers. Letting everyone use their preferred control method results in the fairest balance, since it eliminates controls as a factor. And again, you're being intentionally dishonest trying to compare the use of the right tool to improve the translation of what you want to in-game action, to that of using automation to achieve actions physically impossible otherwise (your modded turbo controller).
XxSaya-ChanxX Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 5	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:29:00 - [550] - Quote god, more and more crying about uhhh if i cant use a keyboard im going to leave uhhh this is the part where youre suppose to care uhhh yea. Pleast stfu and gtfo then and stop whining, lol not every game that involves using the ps3 controller has aim assist, lol so these are the eve players eh, i just got into eve myself and can happily say im NOT gonna turn out like them mmmkay

Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:34:00 - [551] - Quote XxSaya-ChanxX wrote: god, more and more crying about uhhh if i cant use a keyboard im going to leave uhhh this is the part where youre suppose to care uhhh yea. Pleast stfu and gtfo then and stop whining, lol not every game that involves using the ps3 controller has aim assist, lol so these are the eve players eh, i just got into eve myself and can happily say im NOT gonna turn out like them mmmkay I won't leave, I'll still play. Well, at least until PlanetSide 2 comes out and I have a similar game with controls that aren't absolute ****. Fortunately we're getting keyboard and mouse and everyone can use whatever controls they want, including the right tool for the job of FPS gaming: the keyboard and mouse.
Crimson MoonV Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 658	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:36:00 - [552] - Quote Geirskoegul wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: You don't see me bringing a modded controller to the arcade. The fact of the matter is using a mouse is an unfair advantage and ccp knows this and will nerf kbm users and Im going to laugh in your face when your AR doesn't do **** on the battlefield because you suck with a 6 axis. Adapt or die scrub. Forcing me to use a steering wheel in a platformer is an unfair advantage to the ones used to using steering wheels for platformers. Letting everyone use their preferred control method results in the fairest balance, since it eliminates controls as a factor. And again, you're being intentionally dishonest trying to compare the use of the right tool to improve the translation of what you want to in-game action, to that of using automation to achieve actions physically impossible otherwise (your modded turbo controller). No. adapt or die. It doesn't matter tbh. ccp is not stupid. They will nerf KB/M users and you will still get worked. because this is a console game and ccp will not give you an easy win.
Osiris Greywolf Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 80	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:37:00 - [553] - Quote Geirskoegul wrote: Osiris Greywolf wrote: This is basically my opinion that I posted on a different thread but is my take on the situation with a bit of economics and common sense, (I'd give a few quotes except there appears to be to many to count.) allot of you K\bm guys appear to be coming out with you usual fallback, adapt or die. Well, suffice to say, most of the 60 million PS3 users you are talking about will, by simply responding yes to to the question "Are you sure you want to delete", though my point hear is that a lot of you appear to think that thats ok, we will still have a good game, and we don't want cod kids in here playing with us, a stereotype which makes about as much sense as all eve players are people who are unemployed and have no social lives. All it really takes is a bit of basic economics. The PS3 target market isn't hardcore beta testers, but rather people who incorporate the use of a ps3 into their lives instead of people who incorporate their lives into the ps3. Ergo, one would think that any of the 60 million or so PS3 player would like a game where they actually don't have to spend 60$ to 120$ top of the line Kb\m from Alienware to own. One would also think that considering the fact that people are probably going to research the game and on finding out that to be the best at the game they'll need to get a kb\m, an imput device that a majority of PS3 players are probably going to be alien to for a FPS shooter, are going to be put off. Now, to counter this, you'll probably say, but it's free, to which I say sure it's free, but do you really think thats going to matter Much if the game receives negativity from the PS3 community, which it will when everyone will complain about Kb\m, which they will, judging from the feedback on the forums. Another argument being made is that kb\m is the superior imput device for an FPS. This is something that no rational person would argue against. However what I will say, is that that doesn't really matter. A PC shooter, to be successful needs to cater more to Kb\m to be successful, just as a PS3 shooter needs to cater to to Controller users. Why? Because they are the preferred method of imput, and users will stick with their preferred of imput because thats how they interact with a game. To give an out of video gaming industry example, but one that Is perfectly relevant, just look at macintosh and Microsoft when they first split, one used a closed system, and one used an open system, and each got a different set of users. I could elaborate more, but if you've read this far, your probably getting bored, so I'll leave you there, but if you want me to go on, just ask, and I'll expect that you won't do it nicely. now feel free to misquote me, call me dumb, and tell me to adapt or die, because to be honest, I, like most other PS3 users, won't do either. And for all the reasons you're wrong, it won't be an issue. When all else is the same, the mouse will have the advantage, that's what happens when you use the right tool for the job. You're welcome to use it too. No one cries "hax" when you use a steering wheel in a racing game. At the end of the day, most players will have no clue whether the guy that killed them was using a mouse, a DS3, or a Move (though you can bet they'll probably blame mice, given most of the ignorance and FUD the console kiddies have been spreading.) "Baal Roo" wrote: There really is no use continuing this debate. The guys who are used to buying their advantage off of newegg and who want the goofy KBM style game play will likely never understand the concept of preferring a playing field that is as level as possible and leaves the advantages to those who are best at playing the game rather than who can buy the nicest equipment. These are the same type of guys who think modded controllers with macros and rapid fire are legit ways to win at multi player. KBM game play is twitchy and goofball and overall leads to spazzy unrealisitic gameplay and ridiculously over accurate gun play. It's only "superior" in so far as it takes all of the fun and challenge out of FPS by degrading gameplay to a high speed point and click adventure game. Quite simply, you've no clue what you're talking about, and have never played any of the countless good, tactical shooters on PC. Even PlanetSide, a relatively fast-paced twitchy game, was very heavy on tactics and use of cover. Meanwhile some of the least-tactical, twitchiest games have been console shooters: CoD and Halo spring to mind. Your comparison of the use of a mouse to allow more precise control over actions that are even more precise in real life, to the use of modded controllers to achieve physical impossibilities (turbo button) is disingenuous at best, and absolutely ridiculous at worst. At the end of the day, though, everyone is welcome to use the control scheme they choose to. There's no more level playing field than the one in which everyone gets to make the choice about what they use. All you do by banning control methods is introduce IMBALANCE by forcing people to use inferior, ill-suited controls, and thus expend more effort fighting the ****** controls than actually playing the game. That's not balance, that's a handicap. No, sorry to tell you, but every time I tell someone that it'll have kb\m support, there reply is, I'm not playing that. As for your racing analogy, that's one of the most UPed analogys ever, a racing wheel doesn't offer as much an advantage was kb\m does. And as for people not knowing whether or not they were killed by a kb\m or Duelshock, your right, but they won't care, because they'll be playing cod, bf3 or rainbow six Patriots.
Aka-ahn Bragian Order Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:44:00 - [554] - Quote Crimson MoonV wrote: Geirskoegul wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: You don't see me bringing a modded controller to the arcade. The fact of the matter is using a mouse is an unfair advantage and ccp knows this and will nerf kbm users and Im going to laugh in your face when your AR doesn't do **** on the battlefield because you suck with a 6 axis. Adapt or die scrub. Forcing me to use a steering wheel in a platformer is an unfair advantage to the ones used to using steering wheels for platformers. Letting everyone use their preferred control method results in the fairest balance, since it eliminates controls as a factor. And again, you're being intentionally dishonest trying to compare the use of the right tool to improve the translation of what you want to in-game action, to that of using automation to achieve actions physically impossible otherwise (your modded turbo controller). No. adapt or die. It doesn't matter tbh. ccp is not stupid. They will nerf KB/M users and you will still get worked. because this is a console game and ccp will not give you an easy win. "adapt or die", it's funny how you say that and then refuse to adapt yourself... "but its a console game", yeah, and CCP have said from very early on there would be KB/M support, so yeah, adapt or die...
GSP GoTSoMePoT Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 43	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:46:00 - [555] - Quote Aka-ahn wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: Geirskoegul wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: You don't see me bringing a modded controller to the arcade. The fact of the matter is using a mouse is an unfair advantage and ccp knows this and will nerf kbm users and Im going to laugh in your face when your AR doesn't do **** on the battlefield because you suck with a 6 axis. Adapt or die scrub. Forcing me to use a steering wheel in a platformer is an unfair advantage to the ones used to using steering wheels for platformers. Letting everyone use their preferred control method results in the fairest balance, since it eliminates controls as a factor. And again, you're being intentionally dishonest trying to compare the use of the right tool to improve the translation of what you want to in-game action, to that of using automation to achieve actions physically impossible otherwise (your modded turbo controller). No. adapt or die. It doesn't matter tbh. ccp is not stupid. They will nerf KB/M users and you will still get worked. because this is a console game and ccp will not give you an easy win. "adapt or die", it's funny how you say that and then refuse to adapt yourself... "but its a console game", yeah, and CCP have said from very early on there would be KB/M support, so yeah, adapt or die... lol the same to you lol
Crimson MoonV Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 658	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:47:00 - [556] - Quote Aka-ahn wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: Geirskoegul wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: You don't see me bringing a modded controller to the arcade. The fact of the matter is using a mouse is an unfair advantage and ccp knows this and will nerf kbm users and Im going to laugh in your face when your AR doesn't do **** on the battlefield because you suck with a 6 axis. Adapt or die scrub. Forcing me to use a steering wheel in a platformer is an unfair advantage to the ones used to using steering wheels for platformers. Letting everyone use their preferred control method results in the fairest balance, since it eliminates controls as a factor. And again, you're being intentionally dishonest trying to compare the use of the right tool to improve the translation of what you want to in-game action, to that of using automation to achieve actions physically impossible otherwise (your modded turbo controller). No. adapt or die. It doesn't matter tbh. ccp is not stupid. They will nerf KB/M users and you will still get worked. because this is a console game and ccp will not give you an easy win. "adapt or die", it's funny how you say that and then refuse to adapt yourself... "but its a console game", yeah, and CCP have said from very early on there would be KB/M support, so yeah, adapt or die... I have a fragnstien that I used to use all the time. im not a vag though. I don't need an unfair advantage kill people on a console game. Just so you know no one is going to adapt to the point of buying a mouse. They will simply delete the game off their PS3. You obviously don't care about the future of dust. You just want your precious K/BM because you have no gun game. KB/M will be nerfed and you will still be a scrub either way. So yeah adapt or die scrub.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:55:00 - [557] - Quote Crimson MoonV wrote: No. adapt or die. It doesn't matter tbh. ccp is not stupid. They will nerf KB/M users and you will still get worked. because this is a console game and ccp will not give you an easy win. So instead they should give people stubbornly sticking to inferior controls an advantage (that only matters if they're worse PLAYERS than the guy with the mouse) a leg up, so they can still think they're actually good? I'm sorry mate, but if you lose to another player, nine times out of ten, it's because you're the worst player. Force the mouse user to use **** inferior controls like a controller and all you're doing is REMOVING that player's skill from the equation to give YOU an easy kill, since we're so busy fighting with inferior, imprecise controls that don't do what you bloody tell them to. Fortunately there's no real way you CAN do what you're begging for. All you can do is hard-code the maximum turn speeds of suits, turrets, etc. At the end of the day, the mouse will allow greater precision, but all in all it'll be fairly balanced. And again, you can't have a more level playing field than allowing everyone the choice of how they control their game. Choosing to use inferior controls is no different than choosing to do a no-consumables run in an RPG; it's artificially making your life harder, but it's your choice (though at least the no-consumable one is a question of it taking greater skill; choosing to use inferior controls doesn't mean you have more skill, it just puts you at a slight disadvantage against another player of equal skill using superior controls.) "Osiris Greywolf" wrote: No, sorry to tell you, but every time I tell someone that it'll have kb\m support, there reply is, I'm not playing that. As for your racing analogy, that's one of the most UPed analogys ever, a racing wheel doesn't offer as much an advantage was kb\m does. And as for people not knowing whether or not they were killed by a kb\m or Duelshock, your right, but they won't care, because they'll be playing cod, bf3 or rainbow six Patriots. I'm sorry to hear that you hang out with a bunch of console kiddies that don't know what they're talking about, that sucks. The racing wheel doesn't offer the same advantage? Huh, last I checked it has a much greater range of motion, thus a much greater amount of precision and control, compared to a stick. The pedals further improve on this, by allowing again, greater range of motion and therefor precision, in applying breaks and acceleration. Similarly, a mouse offers greater speed and precision compared to a controller, as you simply move it the amount you want, as opposed to holding down a stick, timing the release of said stick, then correcting. Whatever you choose to believe won't change the facts, and those are that the primary factor is still the player's skill; allowing keyboard and mouse just eliminates ** controls from the equation, allows a skill player to actually play, rather than expending all their effort fighting against the **** controls. This has been proven time and again.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:56:00 - [558] - Quote Crimson MoonV wrote: Aka-ahn wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: Geirskoegul wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: You don't see me bringing a modded controller to the arcade. The fact of the matter is using a mouse is an unfair advantage and ccp knows this and will nerf kbm users and Im going to laugh in your face when your AR doesn't do ** on the battlefield because you suck with a 6 axis. Adapt or die scrub. Forcing me to use a steering wheel in a platformer is an unfair advantage to the ones used to using steering wheels for platformers. Letting everyone use their preferred control method results in the fairest balance, since it eliminates controls as a factor. And again, you're being intentionally dishonest trying to compare the use of the right tool to improve the translation of what you want to in-game action, to that of using automation to achieve actions physically impossible otherwise (your modded turbo controller). No. adapt or die. It doesn't matter tbh. ccp is not stupid. They will nerf KB/M users and you will still get worked. because this is a console game and ccp will not give you an easy win. "adapt or die", it's funny how you say that and then refuse to adapt yourself... "but its a console game", yeah, and CCP have said from very early on there would be KB/M support, so yeah, adapt or die... I have a fragnstien that I used to use all the time. im not a vag though. I don't need an unfair advantage kill people on a console game. Just so you know no one is going to adapt to the point of buying a mouse. They will simply delete the game off their PS3. You obviously don't care about the future of dust. You just want your precious K/BM because you have no gun game. KB/M will be nerfed and you will still be a scrub either way. So yeah adapt or die scrub. Sounds good, nice knowing ya! o/ Using **** controls when you don't have to makes you so much more leet!
Aka-ahn Bragian Order Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2012.07.15 23:58:00 - [559] - Quote Crimson MoonV wrote: Aka-ahn wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: Geirskoegul wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: You don't see me bringing a modded controller to the arcade. The fact of the matter is using a mouse is an unfair advantage and ccp knows this and will nerf kbm users and Im going to laugh in your face when your AR doesn't do ** on the battlefield because you suck with a 6 axis. Adapt or die scrub. Forcing me to use a steering wheel in a platformer is an unfair advantage to the ones used to using steering wheels for platformers. Letting everyone use their preferred control method results in the fairest balance, since it eliminates controls as a factor. And again, you're being intentionally dishonest trying to compare the use of the right tool to improve the translation of what you want to in-game action, to that of using automation to achieve actions physically impossible otherwise (your modded turbo controller). No. adapt or die. It doesn't matter tbh. ccp is not stupid. They will nerf KB/M users and you will still get worked. because this is a console game and ccp will not give you an easy win. "adapt or die", it's funny how you say that and then refuse to adapt yourself... "but its a console game", yeah, and CCP have said from very early on there would be KB/M support, so yeah, adapt or die... I have a fragnstien that I used to use all the time. im not a vag though. I don't need an unfair advantage kill people on a console game. Just so you know no one is going to adapt to the point of buying a mouse. They will simply delete the game off their PS3. You obviously don't care about the future of dust. You just want your precious K/BM because you have no gun game. KB/M will be nerfed and you will still be a scrub either way. So yeah adapt or die scrub. I do care about Dust, but I also care about having a not-**** control scheme going, FPS' was designed for KB/M and that's how they should be played. Also, I find it funny how you find it necessary to throw random accusations and insults to get your point across.
Crimson MoonV Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 658	Posted - 2012.07.16 00:00:00 - [560] - Quote Its not ****** controls you just suck with them so you think they suck.

Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.16 00:02:00 - [561] - Quote Aka-ahn wrote: I do care about Dust, but I also care about having a not-****** control scheme going, FPS' was designed for KB/M and that's how they should be played. Also, I find it funny how you find it necessary to throw random accusations and insults to get your point across. It's not about should. Anyone's welcome to use the controls they want. They're BETTER played with KB/M, but it's a matter of choice. You've always been able to use a controller for shooters on PC, it's simply that no one really does (though the console generation has been starting to when they branch into PC; at least those ones don't complain when they get killed.) It's a matter of choice. Some players are actually better with a controller than they are with a keyboard and mouse, in spite of the innate superiority of a mouse. That's fine, and they have a right to play their way, just as we do ours.
Aka-ahn Bragian Order Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2012.07.16 00:02:00 - [562] - Quote Crimson MoonV wrote: Its not ****** controls you just suck with them so you think they suck. yeah, no, you're right, that's why devs opt to include aim-assist in console FPS', because to controls are so good
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.16 00:03:00 - [563] - Quote Crimson MoonV wrote: Its not ****** controls you just suck with them so you think they suck. No, crimson, controllers really do suck for FPS games. Hell, the entirety of the argument against keyboard and mouse support stems from that very fact: controllers suck for shooters, and mice are perfect for them.
Deskalkulos Ildigan CrimeWave Syndicate 115	Posted - 2012.07.16 00:08:00 - [564] - Quote Geirskoegul wrote: [...other quotes deleted, did you know theres a maximum depth of quotes allowed in this forum?...] You're right, we're playing on consoles. Consoles which are nothing more than computers in a pretty box. Computers that can support keyboards and mice. Computers for which KB/M support has been promised and confirmed. Isn't choice wonderful? You can choose to continue using an inferior control method, and if you think its inferiority is really messing up with your chances, you can choose to use a superior control scheme. If you're better with an inferior method (some are, no shame in that), you can keep using it, and guess what? 9 times out of 10, you'll do just fine against others, because your skill matters a hell of a lot more than your control scheme. The real difference with controls is one's familiarity and ability WITH them. The innate superiority of a mouse, as repeatedly explained, simply doesn't become a significant factor until everything else is identical between the two players. I'm kind of curious what this "uber extreme ultra gamer remix KB/M" you're fantasizing about is, though. What would it do? Play for you? As it stands, I didn't see a method to turn off auto-aim on the controller (there's a reason controllers always have autoaim, they're not as fast or precise as mice for FPS games), so if anything using a KB/M would make it more about the player's skill (though admittedly autoaim can screw you up as well, by pulling you off of a headshot and aiming for center mass; hard enough to put crosshairs over a target with a horrible interface like a joystick, even worse if you're fighting the autoaim to go for a smaller target, I've had it happen, though not in Dust so far). You can be perfectly competitive with a controller. I can't even think of what fancy keyboard or mouse could provide a significant advantage compared to any old one, except perhaps mice with a DPI toggle right on them (which you can bet your ass I'll be using mine; always nice to be able to get more precision for the long shots, and turn it back down for when I need speed). Even that, though, isn't a massive avantage, though it definitely is an advantage. There's really not a whole lot you can do in an FPS other than using a mouse with a high DPI and a cable (to minimize input latency), and maybe a DPI toggle. You can do just fine with a 5 quid mouse, though. There's nothing I can see from the keyboard side that could provide an advantage, except maybe the USB pass-through on most good keyboards, which could be useful for those with the slim PS3s that only have two USB ports. Finally, the ignorance is the part of those expressing your views, in spite of reality. I'm quite familiar with the situation. At the end of the day, the whinging is almost amusing, because it it's so completely meritless. with overpriced ultra gamer remix kb/m i meant those "gamer" hardware by razer and co. you know the mice that costs 100+Gé¼ with exchangable weights and ergonomic thing? Oh wait you mentioned it (didn't read till the end when i wrote that) About the computer thing: i think sony have made their point clear that they don't want to have their console viewed as a computer (if you've been following the ps3 for some time you know what i mean). About choices: I chose to stand on the KB/M-destroys-Dust514-only-because-Devs-wanted-to-cater-to-the-CoD-PC-Elitists side, so i couldn't agree more with "choices are good". About Keyboard support: why is there no official Sony KB/M for PS3 available to buy yet (that mini keypad doesn't count)? You can say if i missed something like that. About the actual possibility to use KB/M on ps3: They added it mostly for communication (writing messages and stuff). If Sony wanted to support KB/M on games they would be actually selling their own mouse and keyboard, as there would be more than enough peoples buying it (me included, i admit that i am a bit of a fanboy when it comes to that). About the superiority complex: You do realize you are wasting about a good fourth of your text writing about things that could've been summarized in one short sentence? About your DPI toggle: Do you had to install a driver on your pc so that your mouse works with the dpi toggle function? If the answer is yes you might see a possible problem with that for the PS3. What you dont get is: the obvious advantage of a console over PC. A levelled base. Hardware is nearly identical for everyone (slight differences when it comes to different PS3 versions), there are mainly two different input methods (DS3 and Move). This is by far the fairest environment you can wish for in competitive playing, adding KB/M adds thousands of additional input methods as every mouse and keyboard works different from another series (i think you know what i mean). I highly doubt that it will be possible to make every kb/m combo function properly with ps3. What i have done that you probably haven't: I have played a fps (UT 3) on PS3 using KB/M, lets just say KB/M hands down lost to DS3, it was sluggish as hell. Oh i should probably add, that i also play UT 3 on PC using KB/M (obviously), and that i do play fps on pc quite frequently - just to prevent you from thinking i am just a ps3 kiddie. like i said i chose to support anti kb/m (also because of my terrible KB/M UT3 PS3 experience) for Dust514, even though it is useless since already announced. Edit: About the ignorance: Weell lets say i wanted to prevent having to write an extremely long post when i could basically summarize it in 3 - 4 sentences decorated with a little cussing (the later it gets the more i like cussing). I'd be a little more careful with calling others ignorant-calling others ignorant might be interpreted as a sign of ignorance itself, add philosophy and you can't even use your reality statement, as every person have their own "reality" which just don't match with everyone elses.
Mock Five Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2012.07.16 00:24:00 - [565] - Quote zerkin gerend wrote: i dont even see how it would work anyone not useing a Keyboard/Mouse would get ***** Challenge accepted mutha licka. Really though I always want to test my skill against the mouse and keyboard and mouses are usally easir to use but I think I could hold my own on the controller honestly. I mean they already have the move functions which to me is kind of advantage over the controller depending on how it was implemented.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.16 00:54:00 - [566] - Quote Deskalkulos Ildigan wrote: with overpriced ultra gamer remix kb/m i meant those "gamer" hardware by razer and co. you know the mice that costs 100+Gé¼ with exchangable weights and ergonomic thing? Oh wait you mentioned it (didn't read till the end when i wrote that) About the computer thing: i think sony have made their point clear that they don't want to have their console viewed as a computer (if you've been following the ps3 for some time you know what i mean). About choices: I chose to stand on the KB/M-destroys-Dust514-only-because-Devs-wanted-to-cater-to-the-CoD-PC-Elitists side, so i couldn't agree more with "choices are good". About Keyboard support: why is there no official Sony KB/M for PS3 available to buy yet (that mini keypad doesn't count)? You can say if i missed something like that. About the actual possibility to use KB/M on ps3: They added it mostly for communication (writing messages and stuff). If Sony wanted to support KB/M on games they would be actually selling their own mouse and keyboard, as there would be more than enough peoples buying it (me included, i admit that i am a bit of a fanboy when it comes to that). About the superiority complex: You do realize you are wasting about a good fourth of your text writing about things that could've been summarized in one short sentence? About your DPI toggle: Do you had to install a driver on your pc so that your mouse works with the dpi toggle function? If the answer is yes you might see a possible problem with that for the PS3. What you dont get is: the obvious advantage of a console over PC. A levelled base. Hardware is nearly identical for everyone (slight differences when it comes to different PS3 versions), there are mainly two different input methods (DS3 and Move). This is by far the fairest environment you can wish for in competitive playing, adding KB/M adds thousands of additional input methods as every mouse and keyboard works different from another series (i think you know what i mean). I highly doubt that it will be possible to make every kb/m combo function properly with ps3. What i have done that you probably haven't: I have played a fps (UT 3) on PS3 using KB/M, lets just say KB/M hands down lost to DS3, it was sluggish as hell. Oh i should probably add, that i also play UT 3 on PC using KB/M (obviously), and that i do play fps on pc quite frequently - just to prevent you from thinking i am just a ps3 kiddie. like i said i chose to support anti kb/m (also because of my terrible KB/M UT3 PS3 experience) for Dust514, even though it is useless since already announced. Edit: About the ignorance: Weell lets say i wanted to prevent having to write an extremely long post when i could basically summarize it in 3 - 4 sentences decorated with a little cussing (the later it gets the more i like cussing). I'd be a little more careful with calling others ignorant-calling others ignorant might be interpreted as a sign of ignorance itself, add philosophy and you can't even use your reality statement, as every person have their own "reality" which just don't match with everyone elses. You're right, razer crap is greatly overpriced crap, mostly catering to and depending on the WoWtards that will by anything that claims it's for WoW. As to it being computer, this is largely legal posturing due to the FUBAR US patent and copyright system. US courts ruled that jailbreaking an iPhone / rooting an Android phone is perfectly legal fair use (they're both computers, by the way). Sony successfully bullied Geohotz for doing the same thing, only to a PS3. Just calling a device something else gains you powers and protections, or '"new" patents on the unpatentable (like software itself, which is not statutory subject matter, but that's another story). if they admit that the PS3 is the computer it is, they likely couldn't have gone after Geohotz, since installing your own OS on a computer is very clearly fair use of the hardware you bought. Regarding choice, at the end of the day, you can choose to think whatwever you like, just as you can choose to use inferior controls. Choices are absolutely good, because then no one is forced to use controls they don't want to, and we can let things fall down to skill. Your choice and opinion, however, don't change the facts. They chose to support keyboard and mouse because they realize that choice is good. By allowing players to choose their controls, they allow everyone to play how they want, and not be limited by inferior controls or ones they're unfamiliar with. Choice lets everyone win, disallowing the choice means only controller users win and you guarantee that your mouse users leave as soon as PlanetSide 2 launches; the console gamers will typically leave as soon as the next big thing comes out either way. (I had a lot more for this originally, I can't recall exactly how I phrased it, as it's almost 0300). Did you mean this keyboard? http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-MediaBoard-Bluetooth-Wireless-PlayStation-3/dp/B003UWKQFY Sony allows logitech to market it specifically for the PS3. As to Sony making their own, and just that crappy gimick of an attachment, there wouldn't be much point, as there's not much money in it for them. Why would you spend a bunch of money when you can spend US$20 for a wireless keyboard or US$5 for a wired one? There's simply no market reason to release an official one when they can let other companies handle it, as has been done here. Sony also doesn't make keyboards, that
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.16 00:54:00 - [567] - Quote They allow the support, just as they did on the PS2, for anything the developer wishes to use it for. UT99, a PS2 launch title, used it for gameplay and it worked great. Armored Core used it for designing decals for your mech. Red Faction 2 used it for gameplay. PS3 has it for UT3 for gameplay. FFXI also had full support on both PS2 and PS3 9and even 360.) Sony also markets remote play features unique to their VAIO laptops, such as using the keyboard remotely with the PS3 (in any context; it shows up like any other keyboard to the system). It's not a complex, I'm just better than you (sorry for explaining my points in detail; shall I stick to simple "lolumads" from now on?) Regarding the DPI toggle, it's part of the mouse's hardware. It handles the precision of its outputs. Turn up the DPI, it sends more "units" moved relative to the same distance you move the mouse. Turn it down and it sends fewer, allowing for greater precision. This is before inputs are sent from the mouse to the device it's connected to. It'll work on PS3 (or anything else you plug it into). And I fully get what you THINK about consoles. It does eliminate system specs, and tweaking graphics settings for an advantage (turning off foliage to get rid of concealment, tweaking gamma to make cloakers in planetside stand out like neon signs). What it does not is provide a level playing field, unless you're just as good with a controller as you are with a mouse. This is simply not the case. It only makes it level for other controller users, and it puts mouse users at a massive disadvantage, as I said, spending most of our effort compensating for **** controls. If you support both, you DO get a level playing field, as everyone will be using the controls they're best with. The mouse will be the tie-breaker, but you have to actually have everything else be evenly matched first for that to matter. There's nothing level about forcing an entire (and significant) section of your player base to use controls that suck and they're not as skilled with. As to your "thousands of combos" comment, that makes no sense whatsoever, lol. Drivers for keyboards and mice are about as generic as things get, and most of its handled by the PS3 at the system level. All CCP has to do is slap in a sensitivity slider, which just determines how many "units" of movement the mouse sends to it correlate to how many "units" of movement in the game. If one works, they'll all work. The only time you (used to) run into issues was with single-dongle wireless combos, like logitech's DiNovo. On the PS2 it would only use the main keyboard, not the mouse or separate number pad. All three parts work just fine on the PS3, though. Please trust me on this, I've been taking apart computers for more than two decades now. I haven't played UT3 on the PS3, so I can't comment there, but it certainly sounds like poor implementation. It worked just fine on FFXI, UT99, and Red Faction 2. Couldn't say what went wrong with UT3 other than perhaps poor configuration on the part of the devs, or improper sensitivity settings on your part (or just a bad surface for the mouse.) And I've played plenty of console shooters, though not nearly as long as I would have if they had proper controls. That's the thing of it, if you force me to use ** controls, I'm only going to stick around long enough to see the story, maybe muck about a little with multiplayer, then I'm out the second a new good game comes out. Give me good controls so I'm not living in constant frustration with fighting against them and I'm more inclined to stick around if the game is good. No matter how good it is, though, the instant one comes out that's even half as good, but actually has good controls (KB/M), that's where I'll be headed. Why would I keep playing a game that is infuriating due to **** controls? We've already seen the complaints about control handling as it is, now picture that all day, every day, on the final product. That's what it's like trying to use a controller for an FPS, because they're simply not suited for it. To your edit (which apparently was made while I was typing), flowerly language is all well and good, but you're diverting from the issue at hand. Perception is reality has no place in this discussion, as it's not a philosophical one. PS Sorry for the delayed post, I had just finished typing (luckily this second post was in notepad, since I maxed out the first post) and it nuked it and the draft with just your quote overwrote the draft with the first post in it. I've tried to reassemble it as best I can.
GSP GoTSoMePoT Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 43	Posted - 2012.07.16 01:06:00 - [568] - Quote ^^^ lol ( space invaders )
Deskalkulos Ildigan CrimeWave Syndicate 115	Posted - 2012.07.16 02:30:00 - [569] - Quote Yeah that draft overwriting sucks hard (have already wrote about it as a bug in the bug section), so i am feeling with you there. Also had to cut down my post to meet the 6k char limit. . . The thousands of combinations thing stems from the UT 3 thing. There are KB/M that worked (have to trust that they knew what they wrote there) and there are KB/M that didn't (my for example, you see i can only say about what i experienced), so it is logical to think that there must be distinctive differences between different KB/M versions. Seems that i really missed out on something, although i cant just say that it is THE official keyboard, i mean we are talking about sony, the company that denies their console being a computer and stuff. They could have just thought: "Nah lets take the money" The levelling argument still stands, as every one had to start using a controller at one time. The PC market is just as unforgiving when its coming to fps, use a KB/M or die (i think most of the fps doesn't even support gamepads, although i can't testify it, since i currently can't reach the game boxes - and nope its not that i am too lazy to stand up and walk around in my home) , and as you said already there are mices that have clear advantage over others (with their dpi toggles-make ironsighting useless etc) - that your dpi toggle is hardware based and does not need additional drivers is good for you, bad for everyone else using anything other than a mouse with hardware based dpi-toggle. So you are actually in the Elitist of elitist group of my little thought experiment earlier. Even if they all (the masses) buy KB/M they will still have a disadvantage to you if they do not buy mices with toggleable DPI. and sorry pal but thats NOT what i'd call a levelled field. Let me exaggerate the point a bit: KB/M and DS3 are two completely different input methods ( i know move too, there are enough people complaining about move being added), one of which you yourself declared superior (i won't deny it straight forward, but i say comparing them isn't the wisest move). So you are pitting two input schemes against each other, one of which have an imminent advantage over the other. Is that levelled? i don't think so. You are punishing one faction for using the input method that came with the console and rewarding every PC adept. Every player have a certain skill level in KB/M and a certain Skill level in Gamepad (DS3), may the last be padded by aim assist as it is, everyone with gamepads get the same aim assist. So you have person a who can't handle the DS3, but is an adept at KB/M and put him against his friend who is an adept in DS3 but can't handle the KB/M. Person A just toss the DS3 and takes out his KB/M which have an imminent advantage over the DS3. Isn't it basically the same as saying: "I can't beat him in an argument, but i can beat him with my fist, for i trained my muscles while he trained his brain. My muscles are hurting more than his words that means his arguments are invalid, i win the argument" A quick search on google didn't find any PS3 game that supported KB/M besides UT3, so we have the standard PS3 players who have played on the console for years honing their DS3 Skills, who might have never touched a KB/M for fps ever before. Then we have the PC players (maybe Eve players as you and maybe me although my single account is inactive) who have honed their KB/M skills, but might have never touched a DS3 before. Now the PC players who were crazy enough to buy a 300$ console for a f2p game are suddenly newbies once more, which they can't stand as they have played years and years on the pc. Lets stress this point. They went from their home platform onto another platform. Normally you'd say when in Rome do as the romans do, but not these people. They are suddenly arguing about that fps are meant to be played with KB/M forgetting, that it actually says: Fps on the PC are meant to be played with KB/M. Fps on consoles are meant to be played with gamepads. Now we have the console players who get their home turf squashed by whining PC Players, who sadly got what they wanted, which in turn now suddenly turns the console players into whiners from the PC Players view telling them, that they just have to buy a KB/M and adapt and everything will be ok. Hell you even said yourself, that it is the players choice to buy a kb/m if they can't cope with the KB/M users, when the KB/M users might have just needed to cope with the gamepad. Or in short: It does provide a level playing field. Its just not the PC playing field. Everyone sucks when they first use Gamepads. It's an accurate depiction of your skill with a gamepad. You're Gamepad skills are not your Keyboard skills. less keyboard skill is needed to overcome gamepad skill, meaning that top gamepad players will most likely loose to top Keyboard players. That doesn't make the keyboard players superior as they are using a different control scheme. I am aware that the same points can be used for DS3 vs Move. That doesn't justify pitting those three input methods into the same game. Dust514 was meant to be a console game, they created a completely different game from Eve to a completely different audience, yet mainly Eve/PC players who bought a console (just for this game) have flipped the bird to every other console gamer by forcing KB/M on Dust514-a console game for a reason. They are the intruders not the consoleros. who says that the ps3 system handling is enough to properly cater to the needs of a kb/m fps player? my needs weren't fullfilled by UT3. Well i thought that our "ignorant" part got quite philosphical (i mean its all about "who is ignorant? You or i for i called you ignorant") so i thought why not step up? It was my fault to bring that up anyway so i blew it up - same goes for the "better than you" its basically begging for philosophy. . . I cannot say against anything of the other things you wrote though.
Deskalkulos Ildigan CrimeWave Syndicate 115	Posted - 2012.07.16 02:34:00 - [570] - Quote Oh and we are basically arguing over the definition of levelled playing field. You say the more choices the better i say, same prerequisits for everyone. What is NOT philosophical about that? (not double post, the character limit of the previous post was reached)



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