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Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.05 20:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Lilianna Sentinel wrote:PEEEEEEETREEEEEEEEEEEEEE wrote:
KB/M without limitations won't happen.
You don't release a game that would play better using a kb/m on a console that is sold with controllers.
Why not? Because stubborn people might complain that others have better controls so you'll just dumb everyone down their level? That's bad design that leads to crap like Call of Duty.
What, your shotput ball is 6 pounds? That's dumb, look how much farther I can throw this baseball. How come the Olympics are dumbing down ball throwing? They should let me compete in shotput with this baseball instead of dumbing it down with your clearly inferior shotput ball. |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.05 20:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lilianna Sentinel wrote:Baal Roo wrote: What, your shotput ball is 6 pounds? That's dumb, look how much farther I can throw this baseball. How come the Olympics are dumbing down ball throwing? They should let me compete in shotput with this baseball instead of dumbing it down with your clearly inferior shotput ball.
When this game's core design is based around fighting terrible controls, then your argument might hold weight. More like, in the olympics we should take away anyone who is physically fit to be fair to those who don't bother to exercise.
You really don't get it. The input method IS your interface with the game, and the SKILL is being better at inputting your commands than your opponent. Any natural limitations of a controller are limitations that everyone has, and normally on console is how you have an equal playing field. Unlike on PC where players openly discuss ways to get an EDGE from their hardware, program macros, etc, on console simply using rapid-fire or programmable controllers is looked at as cheap and will get you shunned from the community.
On PC "guys, check out my $200 fully programmable gaming keyboard" will result in ooohs and aaaahs, on console "guys, check out my fully programmable 3rd party controller" results in a definitive "GTFO NOOB. "
One of the big draws of console play is that everyone is using the same input device and thus pure SKILL separates the winners from the losers, not your ability to purchase an advantage off of newegg. |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.05 22:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Lilianna Sentinel wrote:
I'd like to see where those numbers are coming from.
I'm guessing VERY CLOSE to 100% of PS3 players use DS3. If you think more than 1 in 10 console players are going to say "oh, I need to plug in a keyboard and mouse and try to use them from my couch/coffeetable set up for this game... AWESOME! I'm totally gonna do that instead of just playing something else" then you are crazy.
Quote:You never use? What are you typing with? And what did you click reply with?
You actually use a home PC to browse the internet? 2005 called, they want their office chair and computer desk back.
The large majority of people I know use laptops, tablets, and smartphones for the internet unless they are sitting at an office computer at work. The ONLY people I know who ever use a PC at home are hardcore PC gamers.
Quote:
That doesn't mean it has to be limited to gamepads.
True, but if it wants to gain any traction on the PS3 it probably needs to be limited to gamepads. |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.05 23:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Farson Thrask wrote:
That KB/M vs gamepad test is a good reason that KB/M should be promoted as a standard console accessory, since the gamepads are so much inferior in FPS gaming.
Again (this has been explained about a bajillion times) it's entirely subjective. "easier" does not automatically mean "better." To go back, yet again, to my Hurdles vs. Sprint analogy, sprinting isn't BETTER than hurdles just because it's easier. Go Kart racing is easier than F1 racing, but that doesn't make Go Kart racing "better." |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.05 23:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lilianna Sentinel wrote:Baal Roo wrote:Farson Thrask wrote:
That KB/M vs gamepad test is a good reason that KB/M should be promoted as a standard console accessory, since the gamepads are so much inferior in FPS gaming.
Again (this has been explained about a bajillion times) it's entirely subjective. "easier" does not automatically mean "better." To go back, yet again, to my Hurdles vs. Sprint analogy, sprinting isn't BETTER than hurdles just because it's easier. Go Kart racing is easier than F1 racing, but that doesn't make Go Kart racing "better." Bad controls is a problem, not an intentional challenge to overcome like you seem to imply.
Millions of players who play FPS regularly with these "bad" controls seem to disagree. Personally, I think KBM are "bad" controls because I find it extremely uncomfortable to use for extended periods of time, and the easy mode point and click nature of it completely ruins the immersion. |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.05 23:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sid Napier wrote:Farson Thrask wrote:
That KB/M vs gamepad test is a good reason that KB/M should be promoted as a standard console accessory, since the gamepads are so much inferior in FPS gaming.
Yup, but they aren't, thus there is no point in unbalancing the game. /argument
no, don't you see, the millions upon millions of console players are just idiots who don't know any better. It's not that we have a preference for a controller and a spot on the couch, it's that we are morons who just need to be shown the light by the PC elite.
All it's going to take is CCP's F2P shooter to incorporate KBM, and instead of the console audience saying "nah, **** that, I'll play something where I can compete with my controller of choice" they are going to say "Oh, i've been wrong all this time, I really wanted to control my character with a peripheral designed for text entry and point and click control interfaces, I'm so stupid! BRING ON THE CARPEL TUNNEL!!!"
This conversation is going nowhere honestly. I know no one here means any disrespect (at least, MOST of the people don't), but no one is going to convince the other side. At this point, I think we'll just have to wait and see. I stand firmly by my opinion that KBM support is an absolutely AWFUL idea that will lead to nothing but anger, frustration, and bad blood from BOTH sides, with NO ONE being happy with the result. But if that's the case, there are plenty of great games coming out all the time and although I'll be bummed that this awesome game concept was ruined by a PC "hardware over skill" mentality, CCP seems committed to this short sited scheme regardless of what seems like a very obvious and long list of reasons to avoid such a bad idea. |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.06 02:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
hellcat420 wrote:Farson Thrask wrote:Freyar Tarkin wrote:Lilianna Sentinel wrote:Maybe it is the fact that mouse and keyboard is so accessible and easy to find for an affordable price that people hate. Because then nearly everyone will use it. Which will require them to do it too since that becomes the input method of choice for shooters. Which is best for everyone and for the future of console gaming. or it will kill this game because as i stated before most people who play on console don't want to play on keyboard/mouse or else they would be playing on a pc.
Obviously all of us console players are just too stupid and poor to play on PC and use KBM, it has nothing to do with preference, parity, or any other reasonable argument we can conjure. The KBM player are our FPS saviors here to show us what morons we are. |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.06 02:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Well, you've got 420 in your name, so you're cool in my book.
Honestly, we're all obviously passionate about this game, and although some of us disagree pretty strongly on this issue, I hope there isn't any ill will resulting from all this. You ALL are cool as far as I'm concerned, don't take my snark and snarl as anything more serious than a healthy dose of debate. BETA BROS (AND SISTERS) 4 LYF YO! |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.13 01:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Corvus Ravensong wrote:Quote:There is no way an average PS3 gamer, or for that matter a competitive one, will stick around for long just to have their asses handed to them from guys with lightning look speed You do realize your look and turn speed is capped by the drop suit you choose right? And that this means a mouse user won't turn faster than any other person in the same suit, right? And you also realize that there are no hotkeys that can be put in other than what the programmer allows, right? Every time I turn around it's the same 2 arguments, and the console cowboys don't even realize that their primary complaint is already null and void due to the dropsuit balancing that's already been done. Keep whipping the dead horse gentlemen, It'll keep you from noticing the free hookers & booze down at the saloon on main street.
You are wrong on your first point. Every KBM user will immediately set their sensitivity to 100, but 100 on a DS3 is EXTREMELY difficult. KBM is easy mode, there is no arguing that point, if it wasn't considerably easier then damn near no one would care if it was added (on either side of the argument). |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.13 03:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Henri Thoreau wrote:Baal Roo wrote:Corvus Ravensong wrote:Quote:There is no way an average PS3 gamer, or for that matter a competitive one, will stick around for long just to have their asses handed to them from guys with lightning look speed You do realize your look and turn speed is capped by the drop suit you choose right? And that this means a mouse user won't turn faster than any other person in the same suit, right? And you also realize that there are no hotkeys that can be put in other than what the programmer allows, right? Every time I turn around it's the same 2 arguments, and the console cowboys don't even realize that their primary complaint is already null and void due to the dropsuit balancing that's already been done. Keep whipping the dead horse gentlemen, It'll keep you from noticing the free hookers & booze down at the saloon on main street. You are wrong on your first point. Every KBM user will immediately set their sensitivity to 100, but 100 on a DS3 is EXTREMELY difficult. KBM is easy mode, there is no arguing that point, if it wasn't considerably easier then damn near no one would care if it was added (on either side of the argument). Doesn't it just **** you off when someone uses the right tool for the job. Put down the screwdriver and hammer that screw in like a real man!
There isn't a "right" tool for playing videogames. The accuracy of KBM makes gaming LESS fun for many folks. I mean, by your logic the "right" difficulty setting for a videogame is always the easiest one. |
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Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.13 15:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Henri Thoreau wrote:Baal Roo wrote:
There isn't a "right" tool for playing videogames. The accuracy of KBM makes gaming LESS fun for many folks. I mean, by your logic the "right" difficulty setting for a videogame is always the easiest one.
So, for YOU it's more "fun" to fight against an inferior (less accurate in your words) control scheme, than it is to actually play the game itself with an input scheme that allows you to do what you want more naturally? That's fascinating, but not terribly surprising considering how vastly different people's opinions can be.
Well, IMO, KBM for FPS just feels unrealistically accurate and MUCH LESS natural. The game play tends to degenerate into twitchy, stuttering, strafing, crouch jumping, hot keyed, nonsense. Give me the same game on PC and PS3 and let me practice for a few days, and then tell me which seems more "natural".
Quote: I tend to favor games that have sensible interfaces which allow me to focus on the Yomi of the game and trying to out think my opponent. It may surprise you to learn that practiced skill with a DS3 controller will not net you much in life.
This is the biggest reason I prefer console FPS. Everyone is expected to be using the same input interface. It's just your wits and abilities with the DS3 vs everyone else's. With KBM you start having to deal with the arms race of "my gear vs. your gear" and the real possibility of losing to someone because they've purchased their edge off of newegg.
Quote: I play games on whichever platform I think suits them best, which is generally dictated by the user interface. FPS happens to be one of those game types I generally prefer playing on a PC, but I suppose 20 years of FPS experience using a particular control scheme is bound to make a person biased. That being said, if whatever form the KB/M support takes in this game feels awkward and unnatural due to some console concessions the devs have to make, I won't use it. I won't cry about it either. I will just accept it as a shortcoming of the game, but continue to enjoy a game that I hope lives up to all of the grand visions.
By the way, I actually use my DS3 controller on my PC when I play some games originally designed for consoles because KB/M feels awkward and inefficient for that game type, or just because the developers who ported the game did a terrible job mapping standard PC inputs to the game. Seems only right I should be able to do the reverse as well. :-)
I used to game on both PC and console but over the years migrated more and more towards console to the point that I no longer even own a PC.
also, don't get me wrong "I don't like KBM" isn't my argument against KBM being implemented. I'm just clarifying why it is that I personally prefer DS3 for FPS (and it's a sentiment I know I share with many other console players). The argument against KBM is that it will either be unbalanced, or gimped, so IMO it just sounds like a lose-lose that will ultimately cause more trouble than it's worth. There isn't exactly a shortage of players who enjoy using DS3 for FPS. |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.13 18:20:00 -
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Elum 66 wrote:Chew B0CCA wrote:Elum 66 wrote:So many posts state that FPS on PS3 have NEVER supported kb&m, but that is not true. There have not been many, but I think the most relevant one is Unreal Tournament 3. UT3 is the engine that Dust is built on. What i would like to know is.... Did the different controllers play bead to bead on UT3? Was there widespread imbalance when they did? Did it cause UT3 to loose sufficient playerbase to bring it down? CCP, having paid to use UT3 engine, has probably already found the answers to these questions, but we should definatelyspend our time second guessing their research! Their research? Well, I'll tell you about their research: This game was originally supposed to have no KB/M support, and then the beta started and CCP gave access to EVE players. The EVE players didn't like the lack of KB/M support and jumped on the boards to complain, much like we DS3 players are doing now. CCP saw all the complaints (and btw, at that point the majority of players in the beta were PC players so it was a poor sampling of what people who will eventually play it will want) and decided to allow kB/M support. So to comment about your statement regarding their research, CCP originally intended NOT to have it. So I agree with you. We should not second guess their research. Unfortuantely, CCP themselves have. That's a nice story, but i think you've been eating too much of your own wookie skat! Kb&m spt has been confirmed by by CCP since February or before, but the beta began in the beginning of May i believe. You have to win the war, before you can re-write history!
Hilariously wrong, and ironic too! |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.13 19:12:00 -
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Lilianna Sentinel wrote:Templar Two wrote:^^^ There's a reason if nobody ever did it again over 5 years and dozens of FPS. Because the industry is notably stagnating and refuses to move past Call of Duty?
Says the person who thinks a modified typewriter is the best control interface for playing videogames. |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.15 23:13:00 -
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There really is no use continuing this debate. The guys who are used to buying their advantage off of newegg and who want the goofy KBM style game play will likely never understand the concept of preferring a playing field that is as level as possible and leaves the advantages to those who are best at playing the game rather than who can buy the nicest equipment. These are the same type of guys who think modded controllers with macros and rapid fire are legit ways to win at multi player.
KBM game play is twitchy and goofball and overall leads to spazzy unrealisitic gameplay and ridiculously over accurate gun play. It's only "superior" in so far as it takes all of the fun and challenge out of FPS by degrading gameplay to a high speed point and click adventure game.
:-) |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.17 00:11:00 -
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I'm not convinced KBM can be implemented and retain balance, but at this point we will just have to see.
However, even if it does work out, the REAL hurdle CCP will have to overcome is convincing PS3 players that it is balanced. The stigma alone of "KBM support" is enough to turn off large swaths of potential players before they even try the game. There is a large minority of players that will hear it has KBM and just automatically "NOPE" without hesitation, but I admit it's pure speculation to try and gauge whether more players will dismiss the game outright due to KBM or be drawn to it for the same reason. My GUT tells me it'll be A LOT more of the former than the latter, but time will tell. |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.07.17 01:04:00 -
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xeto rak wrote:Why does it have to be balanced? if KB+M gives any advantage everybody can use it, so it's your choice to use a less or better performing device when you have the option to do so...
It's also everyone's choice to simply not play Dust 514, which is what most of us are assuming will be the choice the large majority of players pick if KBM isn't balanced. |
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