DUST Search - Keyboard/Mouse

Vetis Cato wrote:

Mr514 wrote:

onlyelisha wrote:

This is getting ridiculous.

Okay here's my two cents. This is a playstation 3 exclusive game. That means it's a console game. What do console games use? A controller.

Honestly, it's just a bunch of people that refuse to learn how to use a controller to play shooting games.

I play games both on PC and PS3 and I can use both methods to play FPS games.

What is it that the EVE players have been throwing around to everyone that's been complaining, Adapt or Die.

Its everywhere, and its going to be everywhere...
Well, exclusive for a year, and then on PC and other places.. So eat your words and live today, aswell get a life. As i told a few post's ago, we are living in 2012, where even PS3 is about to be history and put in a box. Keyboard and mouse systems are ALWAYS going to be on things like this AND are working and will always be working best on this kind a games..

And as other people saying, You can always get one of this:
http://www.penguinunited.com/

With that any PS3 game what so ever type, can be used with Keyboard and mouse

i always find it amusing how people who are for kb/m always seem to suggest the ds3 is an out of date method. yet in relative terms the ds3 is far far far newer then the kb/m

if kb/m really rains suprieme over all other controlers then why hasnt sony or microsoft adopted it as there primary control method? hell by doing so they will increase there market to alot of pc players too. so not as if it doesnt make business sense.

offically sony and microsoft have renounced using the kb/m any time soon purly because it offers to much of a disparity between players of the same game.

as for exclusive for year minium. theres no word that it will ever port to pc. so purhaps get off that high horse of yours? it might do it might not. only ccp knows that.

besides as has now been said many many many times kb/m will be in, theres no reason for it not to be as long as its fair for the exsisting console players who will be playing dust. if its really balanced and avaliable then console players if they wish can try it. but at least thats there choice. so what you scared of?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Empleh Enoemos Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 37	Posted - 2012.07.07 14:12:00 - [361] - Quote GM Fabulous wrote: Hello everyone. To keep you informed on this subject, KB&M support is coming. We currently plan to release it in the next major beta patch (build). i hope they quickly realize its a mistake and remove the option
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.07 14:40:00 - [362] - Quote Empleh Enoemos wrote: GM Fabulous wrote: Hello everyone. To keep you informed on this subject, KB&M support is coming. We currently plan to release it in the next major beta patch (build). i hope they quickly realize its a mistake and remove the option Need dislike button (and intending to stick with sixaxis controls when KB+M is implemented).
Chew B0CCA 58	Posted - 2012.07.07 18:22:00 - [363] - Quote GM Fabulous wrote: Hello everyone. To keep you informed on this subject, KB&M support is coming. We currently plan to release it in the next major beta patch (build). And my interest in this game just left. Thanks CCP. Why would you release a game on the PS3 and then make it that much more difficult for hard core PS3 players who use the DS3? Brilliant. You should've just released it on PC and saved us the time.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.07 18:29:00 - [364] - Quote Chew B0CCA wrote: GM Fabulous wrote: Hello everyone. To keep you informed on this subject, KB&M support is coming. We currently plan to release it in the next major beta patch (build). And my interest in this game just left. Thanks CCP. Why would you release a game on the PS3 and then make it that much more difficult for hard core PS3 players who use the DS3? Brilliant. You should've just released it on PC and saved us the time. So you missed the entire discussion then? There are plenty of ways to balance KB+M. Wait and see if it gives and advantage, and how much of one. I'm expecting it won't be a problem, and if it is, I'll be calling for a fix. Until we see it happening, we don't know.
Raynor Ragna 266	Posted - 2012.07.07 19:33:00 - [365] - Quote hellcat420 wrote: Quote: That KB/M vs gamepad test is a good reason that KB/M should be promoted as a standard console accessory, since the gamepads are so much inferior in FPS gaming. that wont work. most people who play console do so because they don't want to use a keyboard and mouse, or they would be either playing on pc or already have a keyboard/mouse for their console. People play console games because there is a game for it that they want to play.
Grimm Scion Algintal Core Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2012.07.07 20:59:00 - [366] - Quote People are just a lethal with controllers, I see my son play and he uses it like an extension of his hand. I do not see real benefits beyond being preferential and easing learning curve and frustration for those that will take advantage of it.
onlyelisha Algintal Core Gallente Federation 86	Posted - 2012.07.07 21:18:00 - [367] - Quote This is getting ridiculous. Okay here's my two cents. This is a playstation 3 exclusive game. That means it's a console game. What do console games use? A controller. Honestly, it's just a bunch of people that refuse to learn how to use a controller to play shooting games. I play games both on PC and PS3 and I can use both methods to play FPS games. What is it that the EVE players have been throwing around to everyone that's been complaining, Adapt or Die.
Mr514 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2012.07.08 11:04:00 - [368] - Quote onlyelisha wrote: This is getting ridiculous. Okay here's my two cents. This is a playstation 3 exclusive game. That means it's a console game. What do console games use? A controller. Honestly, it's just a bunch of people that refuse to learn how to use a controller to play shooting games. I play games both on PC and PS3 and I can use both methods to play FPS games. What is it that the EVE players have been throwing around to everyone that's been complaining, Adapt or Die. Its everywhere, and its going to be everywhere... Well, exclusive for a year, and then on PC and other places.. So eat your words and live today, aswell get a life. As i told a few post's ago, we are living in 2012, where even PS3 is about to be history and put in a box. Keyboard and mouse systems are ALWAYS going to be on things like this AND are working and will always be working best on this kind a games.. And as other people saying, You can always get one of this: http://www.penguinunited.com/ With that any PS3 game what so ever type, can be used with Keyboard and mouse
Vetis Cato Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 250	Posted - 2012.07.08 11:14:00 - [369] - Quote Mr514 wrote: onlyelisha wrote: This is getting ridiculous. Okay here's my two cents. This is a playstation 3 exclusive game. That means it's a console game. What do console games use? A controller. Honestly, it's just a bunch of people that refuse to learn how to use a controller to play shooting games. I play games both on PC and PS3 and I can use both methods to play FPS games. What is it that the EVE players have been throwing around to everyone that's been complaining, Adapt or Die. Its everywhere, and its going to be everywhere... Well, exclusive for a year, and then on PC and other places.. So eat your words and live today, aswell get a life. As i told a few post's ago, we are living in 2012, where even PS3 is about to be history and put in a box. Keyboard and mouse systems are ALWAYS going to be on things like this AND are working and will always be working best on this kind a games.. And as other people saying, You can always get one of this: http://www.penguinunited.com/ With that any PS3 game what so ever type, can be used with Keyboard and mouse i always find it amusing how people who are for kb/m always seem to suggest the ds3 is an out of date method. yet in relative terms the ds3 is far far far newer then the kb/m if kb/m really rains suprieme over all other controlers then why hasnt sony or microsoft adopted it as there primary control method? hell by doing so they will increase there market to alot of pc players too. so not as if it doesnt make business sense. offically sony and microsoft have renounced using the kb/m any time soon purly because it offers to much of a disparity between players of the same game. as for exclusive for year minium. theres no word that it will ever port to pc. so purhaps get off that high horse of yours? it might do it might not. only ccp knows that. besides as has now been said many many many times kb/m will be in, theres no reason for it not to be as long as its fair for the exsisting console players who will be playing dust. if its really balanced and avaliable then console players if they wish can try it. but at least thats there choice. so what you scared of?
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.08 11:28:00 - [370] - Quote onlyelisha wrote: This is getting ridiculous. Okay here's my two cents. This is a playstation 3 exclusive game. That means it's a console game. What do console games use? A controller. Honestly, it's just a bunch of people that refuse to learn how to use a controller to play shooting games. I play games both on PC and PS3 and I can use both methods to play FPS games. What is it that the EVE players have been throwing around to everyone that's been complaining, Adapt or Die. Actually... http://www.giantbomb.com/keyboard-and-mouse-support-for-console-games/92-3239/ Unsurprisingly, you're wrong. And it's not about refusing to learn how to use inferior controls, what do you think we're using now, and what do you think I've been using in Resistance: FoM, Resistance 2, Resistance 3, Killzone 2, Killzone 3, etc.? It's about a bunch of people that want the best control interface for the game possible. No one is forcing you to use a keyboard and mouse, just as no one is forcing you to use a controller. Choice is king, and even between mouse and controller users, the better player usually comes out ahead. You don't really see much difference in advantage unless you take two equally skilled players, and then the mouse user has the edge (no amount of tweaking can change this, mice are simply more precise, and no movement speed adjustments will change the mechanical fact that moving X distance and stopping is faster and more precise than holding down a stick, releasing it, then backing up because you overshot your target). You're certainly welcome to go back to the standard cookie-cutter games if you can't stand playing against mouse users, there's nothing stopping you (and in all likelihood, the majority of the console kids will do just that after a couple months; console users, though there are exceptions, generally don't have the loyalty or attention span of PC gamers). Meanwhile we'll still be here, using a GOOD control scheme, and not being gimped by inferior controls that we don't just hate, but really do suck for FPS games (hence why the only people on PC using controllers for FPS are the kids that only know consoles). EDIT: In the end this is ALL moot, since CCP promised KB/M support relatively early on, they've reaffirmed it here, and it's already finished and ready for implementation in the next patch. You kids will always throw out the same two arguments: "mice aren't better" AND "there's no way we can compete!" It's comical every time, because the arguments are contradictory and usually coming from the same people. Are mice better? Absolutely. Can you not compete? Of course you can compete, stop sucking, and if you want to blame the mouse users, go spend 5 quid on a mouse.

Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.07.08 11:32:00 - [371] - Quote ^^^ You say choice is king but then you insult those that use a controller on PC. So coherent.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.08 11:35:00 - [372] - Quote Vetis Cato wrote: Mr514 wrote: onlyelisha wrote: This is getting ridiculous. Okay here's my two cents. This is a playstation 3 exclusive game. That means it's a console game. What do console games use? A controller. Honestly, it's just a bunch of people that refuse to learn how to use a controller to play shooting games. I play games both on PC and PS3 and I can use both methods to play FPS games. What is it that the EVE players have been throwing around to everyone that's been complaining, Adapt or Die. Its everywhere, and its going to be everywhere... Well, exclusive for a year, and then on PC and other places.. So eat your words and live today, aswell get a life. As i told a few post's ago, we are living in 2012, where even PS3 is about to be history and put in a box. Keyboard and mouse systems are ALWAYS going to be on things like this AND are working and will always be working best on this kind a games.. And as other people saying, You can always get one of this: http://www.penguinunited.com/ With that any PS3 game what so ever type, can be used with Keyboard and mouse i always find it amusing how people who are for kb/m always seem to suggest the ds3 is an out of date method. yet in relative terms the ds3 is far far far newer then the kb/m if kb/m really rains suprieme over all other controlers then why hasnt sony or microsoft adopted it as there primary control method? hell by doing so they will increase there market to alot of pc players too. so not as if it doesnt make business sense. offically sony and microsoft have renounced using the kb/m any time soon purly because it offers to much of a disparity between players of the same game. as for exclusive for year minium. theres no word that it will ever port to pc. so purhaps get off that high horse of yours? it might do it might not. only ccp knows that. besides as has now been said many many many times kb/m will be in, theres no reason for it not to be as long as its fair for the exsisting console players who will be playing dust. if its really balanced and avaliable then console players if they wish can try it. but at least thats there choice. so what you scared of? 1) Newer doesn't always mean better, just look at the difference between Windows 98 and Windows ME (or XP and Vista). 2) MSFT outright prohibits support for keyboard and mouse as gameplay controls on the 360, specifically because mice offer greater speed and precision than controllers, and they feared having to balance it (and it still only mitigating the fact that mice are faster and more precise). 3) The PS3 (and PS2) support USB keyboards and mice. UT99 was a launch title on the PS2 and supported it, as well as Red Faction 2. UT3 also supports it on the PS3, and soon so will Dust. Even more titles support keyboard and mouse for certain interactions (such as armored core allowing mouse for making logos.) 4) While keyboard and mouse is the current best control interface for FPS games, not all games play best with a keyboard and mouse. You don't see me using a mouse in a flight sim, I have a stick and throttle for that. Controllers work better for fighting games, wheels for racing games, and the list goes on; even the Wiimote and Move work well in games that implement them well instead of just waggle. As with the philosophy in EVE and Dust themselves, it's about using the right tool for the right job. Sure you can use something else, but using the right tool will give you an edge, it's simply how it works. EDIT: Do you have a source to your claim of Sony publicly denouncing keyboard and mouse for any reasons, or the reasons you mention specifically? Because Sony has no such restrictions for any software on the PS3, and they've been vocal about that fact that they won't tell you how to make your game or what to support or not support. MSFT, on the other hand, has been very restrictive, and DOES outright prohibit a lot of things (most of which you can find exceptions to in one place: FFXI, which is the only 360 game allowed online play without Live Gold, the only game allowed actual HDD installs instead of just a disk image rip, and the only game allowed keyboard and mouse support for game controls.)
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.08 11:37:00 - [373] - Quote Templar Two wrote: ^^^ You say choice is king but then you insult those that sue a controller on PC. So coherent. You can choose to hull tank, that's your choice and you deserve the right to make it. You're still daft for doing it. There was nothing inconsistent. Choice is king, and you have the choice to use an inferior control mechanism. That's your right. I should have the choice to use the superior one.
Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.07.08 11:39:00 - [374] - Quote Frankly what is the point of using a mouse that has the accuracy of an analog stick. Please enlight me. Geirskoegul wrote: Choice is king, and you have the choice to use an inferior control mechanism. That's your right. I should have the choice to use the superior one. With this mentality then Rapid Fire Controllers are then legit.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.08 11:41:00 - [375] - Quote Templar Two wrote: Frankly what is the point of using a mouse that has the accuracy of an analog stick. Please enlight me. You must be talking about those horrifically bad FragFX or SplitFish controllers, that attempt to map a mouse's inputs to the analog ones of the right stick. Yes, these are crap, and are actually far worse than a normal controller. We're not talking about translation layers so you can use a "mouse" with a game that only accepts the joystick inputs. We're talking about actual mouse input. I.e. I move it X amount in Y direction, at Z speed, and it just bloody puts it there (with the speed capped by game settings; this can work fine, depending on how it's implemented, and doesn't reduce the inherent speed and precision advantage of a mouse). Not really sure what you were going for here if you're not talking about one of those hack-job controllers I mentioned...
Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.07.08 11:47:00 - [376] - Quote You all say MKB will be fine as long as it will be well balanced. Well, to balance a mouse with a DS3 you must: Make it as accurate/fast as an analog stick. A mouse as accurate/fast as an analog stick won't serve any purpose nor appeal to PC players because it would no longer behave as a mouse. If the mouse is as accurate/fast as the analog stick then frankly I don't see why you should not use a DS3 since the mouse no longer would be superior. DS3 is superior to any keyboard in therms to movement so without the superior accuracy of the mouse the KB players will then be the ones disadvantaged...then I would have to feel sorry for MB players and ask CCP to fix things.. IF the mouse is as fast/accurate as a analog stick the joke is on MKB players. If the mouse is fast/accurate as usual the joke is on DS3 players. Result: someone will be discriminated for this solution anyway.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.08 12:12:00 - [377] - Quote KB+M has two core advantages over the Sixaxis controller (NOT just DS3, I had a release-day PS3 with a pre-DualShock controller that's outlasted that first console). 1. Precision 2. Speed MOST people used to PC games expect both of these. Some games limit speed, but there's no practical way to limit precision, and I don't think they should. Speed, on the other hand, is too big an advantage while turning speed has variable caps based on what you're controlling. Also, SOME PC games have already had speed caps on turning in the past, and while that gave them a bit of an added learning curve for most players, they still worked well once you got used to the system. The Sixaxis controller has an advantage over KB+M control too, which people keep forgetting. MOVEMENT. Analog movement > WASD. If the turning speed advantage of mouse users is negated, there's going to be a good balance, and everyone will have a good basis to work from. Except Move players, because right now, they're being shafted by terribly-implemented controls. A fix for this would be nice (even though I'm not going to bother with Move outside of testing purposes).
Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.07.08 12:16:00 - [378] - Quote ^^^ As long as the natural superior accuracy of the mouse is not negated it will always have an advantage. It will take always more effort for me to move (at the same speed) my reticule on your head usign the less accurate DS3 rahter then you using the mouse. No pal, the only way to balance the mouse is to make it exactly as fast/accurate as the analog stick. And as I said above, it would then be better to have never implemented it because a mouse is good only if it fully behaves as a mouse.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.08 12:29:00 - [379] - Quote Templar Two wrote: ^^^ It's exactly what I said in the post above. Still if the mouse will have accuracy/speed negated then it would have been better not introduces at all because frankly players have a reason to choose the mouse only if it is as good as always. You CAN"T cancel out the PRECISION (accuracy doesn't apply to any of this, they're both 100% accurate: they go where you tell them, mice just allow more precision in giving it the "where" instruction). That's the whole point of his above post, and why even perfectly balanced a mouse will still have an edge. Your numbered suggestions to "balance" the two are absolutely ********, not how it would or ever will be implemented, and completely BREAK mouse use and make them actively WORSE than controllers, so it does achieve your goal: making the support and use of a proper, superior control scheme for shooters moot. You are right, though, that the controller offers greater movement control. Once we get complete key remapping, I might look into using a Navigation controller and mouse in combination, I think it might work extremely well... The advantage to the keyboard, though, is that you have ready access to a lot more controls simultaneously, which can also make a difference (weapon / equipment selection alone would be massively improved by simply hitting the corresponding slot number). As to the ninja edit you did earlier, while you could try arguing that, there's a bit of a difference between a device that allows you to make infinitely fast key presses without ever getting tired, and a device that simply allows faster and more precise input of what you're trying to tell it to do. There's a reason you don't see anyone shout "cheater" for using an arcade stick vs the standard controller in a fighting game, but you'll hear that call almost instantly if someone brings out a turbo controller. There's a difference between an advantage, and an unfair, unreasonable advantage. Those turbo controllers also bring up some pretty big issues (and oversights / bugs) themselves, like games that don't properly hard-limit the RoF on semi-auto weapons. With a turbo controller, you could turn a pistol into an SMG, even though the actual weapon could never cycle that fast (and certainly no human could pull the trigger that fast). All we're talking about with a mouse is actually having our inputs precisely and quickly translated and applied, within the limits of the game. We're not trying to break past what isn't normally possible.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.08 12:30:00 - [380] - Quote Templar Two wrote: ^^^ As long as the natural superior accuracy of the mouse is not negated it will always have an advantage. It will take always more effort for me to move (at the same speed) my reticule on your head usign the less accurate DS3 rahter then you using the mouse. No pal, the only way to balance the mouse is to make it exactly as fast/accurate as the analog stick. And as I said above, it would then be better to have never implemented it because a mouse is good only if it fully behaves as a mouse. Again, quite simply, no. Doing that completely breaks a mouse, while doing it PROPERLY simply leaves it more precise but only really shows a difference between two equally skilled players. You're welcome to head back to Halo or CoD or wherever, but KB/M support is coming, and it's going to be real KB/M support, not ****-poor emulation that is completely non-functional like you describe and is found on those half-ass mouse controllers like the FragFX and SplitFish.

Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.07.08 12:33:00 - [381] - Quote ^^^ Hey, I know it's a NO. I know that solution is not feasible because it breaks the mouse, but hell the mouse can't keep its accuracy because it would still be advantaged. This is why MKB integration is such a bad idea on PS3, on a FPS.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.08 12:37:00 - [382] - Quote Templar Two wrote: ^^^ Hey, I know it's a NO. I know that solution is not feasible but hell the msoue can't keep its accuracy because it would still be advantaged. The mouse is exactly as accurate as a controller. The mouse is more PRECISE than a controller. There is physically no way to prevent this advantage, it's an innate fact of the control mechanism (moving it where you want it, vs holding down and timing the release of an analog stick). At the same time, though, the same things that make mice better than controllers for shooters make those sticks better for flying than mice: you can just hold down your stick, I have to keep picking up and moving my mouse repeatedly (and you can bet I'll be putting my mouse down and picking up a controller when I'm flying a dropship, or the fighters that we hopefully get later).
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.08 12:39:00 - [383] - Quote Templar Two wrote: ^^^ As long as the natural superior accuracy of the mouse is not negated it will always have an advantage. It will take always more effort for me to move (at the same speed) my reticule on your head usign the less accurate DS3 rahter then you using the mouse. No pal, the only way to balance the mouse is to make it exactly as fast/accurate as the analog stick. And as I said above, it would then be better to have never implemented it because a mouse is good only if it fully behaves as a mouse. As someone planning to use the Sixaxis controller, I have no problem with the mouse being more ACCURATE. Only with it being FASTER, which can be managed without breaking the game (although, as mentioned, it has a learning curve when you're used to "normal" KB+M FPS controls). That accuracy advantage is offset by the controller's movement advantage, but there isn't any realistic way to counter the speed advantage mouse users would have except by limiting it. That will make it about personal preference, rather than getting a direct advantage by using one option over the other. People who prefer KB+M play will do so, people who prefer the Sixaxis will stick with it, and nobody will be disadvantaged by what input method they use. The game is drawing a lot of PC gamers who just don't want to use a gamepad, and having slightly-different KB+M control will still be their preferred option. Many of the console gamers who are familiar and comfortable with out own choice of controller will stick with that, and as long as we have some advantage to offset the benefits of mouse control, that will be fine too.
Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.07.08 12:44:00 - [384] - Quote So PC players now need to have their confront zone in a PS3 game. Dear lord why bother bringing this game on PS3...oh yes we PS3 FPS players are millions while EVE players are just 400k.
Azura dark 31	Posted - 2012.07.08 12:55:00 - [385] - Quote Templar Two protip, pc gamers always get what they want.
Lephis Macintosh Algintal Core Gallente Federation 28	Posted - 2012.07.08 12:56:00 - [386] - Quote Dear God its a beta lets try in the end Mouse isn't that bad for controller gamers and everything will end in big happy smiling if not the game will die CCP will close and EVE gets down, like usual in this market. XD
Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.07.08 13:03:00 - [387] - Quote ^^^ Frankly MKB won't be the reason why Dust 514 will fail and CCP will close.
Mr514 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2012.07.08 13:44:00 - [388] - Quote Templar Two wrote: ^^^ Frankly MKB won't be the reason why Dust 514 will fail and CCP will close. LOL
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.07.08 13:47:00 - [389] - Quote Templar Two wrote: ^^^ Frankly MKB won't be the reason why Dust 514 will fail and CCP will close. What the heck gives you the idea that that's even a possibility? You do realize that this entire project is funded off of what they make -solely- from EVE, right? Part of what they layed out in 2009 was that if some natural disaster were to wipe out the entire player base of EVE or Dust, whichever game was left would still work. The two games cooperate, but are also designed to be self-sufficient within their own bounds. Not having Dust would never kill EVE.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.08 13:54:00 - [390] - Quote Templar Two wrote: So PC players now need to have their confront zone in a PS3 game. Dear lord why bother bringing this game on PS3...oh yes we PS3 FPS players are millions while EVE players are just 400k. Not about comfort zone (are you projecting? are you afraid to try using good controls for an FPS?), it's about "why the **** should we have to settle for the second worst possible control scheme for an FPS? (the worst being a steering wheel). We'll tolerate controllers for FPS games that are truly awesome, finish the single player, and move on. But you're not keeping anyone without keyboard and mouse support, because the console kids move on regardless once the new shiny comes out.



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