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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.08 11:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
onlyelisha wrote:This is getting ridiculous.
Okay here's my two cents. This is a playstation 3 exclusive game. That means it's a console game. What do console games use? A controller.
Honestly, it's just a bunch of people that refuse to learn how to use a controller to play shooting games.
I play games both on PC and PS3 and I can use both methods to play FPS games.
What is it that the EVE players have been throwing around to everyone that's been complaining, Adapt or Die.
Actually...
http://www.giantbomb.com/keyboard-and-mouse-support-for-console-games/92-3239/
Unsurprisingly, you're wrong.
And it's not about refusing to learn how to use inferior controls, what do you think we're using now, and what do you think I've been using in Resistance: FoM, Resistance 2, Resistance 3, Killzone 2, Killzone 3, etc.? It's about a bunch of people that want the best control interface for the game possible. No one is forcing you to use a keyboard and mouse, just as no one is forcing you to use a controller. Choice is king, and even between mouse and controller users, the better player usually comes out ahead. You don't really see much difference in advantage unless you take two equally skilled players, and then the mouse user has the edge (no amount of tweaking can change this, mice are simply more precise, and no movement speed adjustments will change the mechanical fact that moving X distance and stopping is faster and more precise than holding down a stick, releasing it, then backing up because you overshot your target).
You're certainly welcome to go back to the standard cookie-cutter games if you can't stand playing against mouse users, there's nothing stopping you (and in all likelihood, the majority of the console kids will do just that after a couple months; console users, though there are exceptions, generally don't have the loyalty or attention span of PC gamers). Meanwhile we'll still be here, using a GOOD control scheme, and not being gimped by inferior controls that we don't just hate, but really do suck for FPS games (hence why the only people on PC using controllers for FPS are the kids that only know consoles).
EDIT:
In the end this is ALL moot, since CCP promised KB/M support relatively early on, they've reaffirmed it here, and it's already finished and ready for implementation in the next patch. You kids will always throw out the same two arguments: "mice aren't better" AND "there's no way we can compete!" It's comical every time, because the arguments are contradictory and usually coming from the same people. Are mice better? Absolutely. Can you not compete? Of course you can compete, stop sucking, and if you want to blame the mouse users, go spend 5 quid on a mouse. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.08 11:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vetis Cato wrote:Mr514 wrote:onlyelisha wrote:This is getting ridiculous.
Okay here's my two cents. This is a playstation 3 exclusive game. That means it's a console game. What do console games use? A controller.
Honestly, it's just a bunch of people that refuse to learn how to use a controller to play shooting games.
I play games both on PC and PS3 and I can use both methods to play FPS games.
What is it that the EVE players have been throwing around to everyone that's been complaining, Adapt or Die. Its everywhere, and its going to be everywhere... Well, exclusive for a year, and then on PC and other places.. So eat your words and live today, aswell get a life. As i told a few post's ago, we are living in 2012, where even PS3 is about to be history and put in a box. Keyboard and mouse systems are ALWAYS going to be on things like this AND are working and will always be working best on this kind a games.. And as other people saying, You can always get one of this: http://www.penguinunited.com/With that any PS3 game what so ever type, can be used with Keyboard and mouse i always find it amusing how people who are for kb/m always seem to suggest the ds3 is an out of date method. yet in relative terms the ds3 is far far far newer then the kb/m if kb/m really rains suprieme over all other controlers then why hasnt sony or microsoft adopted it as there primary control method? hell by doing so they will increase there market to alot of pc players too. so not as if it doesnt make business sense. offically sony and microsoft have renounced using the kb/m any time soon purly because it offers to much of a disparity between players of the same game. as for exclusive for year minium. theres no word that it will ever port to pc. so purhaps get off that high horse of yours? it might do it might not. only ccp knows that. besides as has now been said many many many times kb/m will be in, theres no reason for it not to be as long as its fair for the exsisting console players who will be playing dust. if its really balanced and avaliable then console players if they wish can try it. but at least thats there choice. so what you scared of?
1) Newer doesn't always mean better, just look at the difference between Windows 98 and Windows ME (or XP and Vista).
2) MSFT outright prohibits support for keyboard and mouse as gameplay controls on the 360, specifically because mice offer greater speed and precision than controllers, and they feared having to balance it (and it still only mitigating the fact that mice are faster and more precise).
3) The PS3 (and PS2) support USB keyboards and mice. UT99 was a launch title on the PS2 and supported it, as well as Red Faction 2. UT3 also supports it on the PS3, and soon so will Dust. Even more titles support keyboard and mouse for certain interactions (such as armored core allowing mouse for making logos.)
4) While keyboard and mouse is the current best control interface for FPS games, not all games play best with a keyboard and mouse. You don't see me using a mouse in a flight sim, I have a stick and throttle for that. Controllers work better for fighting games, wheels for racing games, and the list goes on; even the Wiimote and Move work well in games that implement them well instead of just waggle. As with the philosophy in EVE and Dust themselves, it's about using the right tool for the right job. Sure you can use something else, but using the right tool will give you an edge, it's simply how it works.
EDIT:
Do you have a source to your claim of Sony publicly denouncing keyboard and mouse for any reasons, or the reasons you mention specifically? Because Sony has no such restrictions for any software on the PS3, and they've been vocal about that fact that they won't tell you how to make your game or what to support or not support. MSFT, on the other hand, has been very restrictive, and DOES outright prohibit a lot of things (most of which you can find exceptions to in one place: FFXI, which is the only 360 game allowed online play without Live Gold, the only game allowed actual HDD installs instead of just a disk image rip, and the only game allowed keyboard and mouse support for game controls.) |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.08 11:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:^^^
You say choice is king but then you insult those that sue a controller on PC.
So coherent.
You can choose to hull tank, that's your choice and you deserve the right to make it. You're still daft for doing it. There was nothing inconsistent. Choice is king, and you have the choice to use an inferior control mechanism. That's your right. I should have the choice to use the superior one. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 11:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:Frankly what is the point of using a mouse that has the accuracy of an analog stick.
Please enlight me.
You must be talking about those horrifically bad FragFX or SplitFish controllers, that attempt to map a mouse's inputs to the analog ones of the right stick. Yes, these are crap, and are actually far worse than a normal controller. We're not talking about translation layers so you can use a "mouse" with a game that only accepts the joystick inputs. We're talking about actual mouse input. I.e. I move it X amount in Y direction, at Z speed, and it just bloody puts it there (with the speed capped by game settings; this can work fine, depending on how it's implemented, and doesn't reduce the inherent speed and precision advantage of a mouse).
Not really sure what you were going for here if you're not talking about one of those hack-job controllers I mentioned... |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 12:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:^^^
It's exactly what I said in the post above.
Still if the mouse will have accuracy/speed negated then it would have been better not introduces at all because frankly players have a reason to choose the mouse only if it is as good as always.
You CAN"T cancel out the PRECISION (accuracy doesn't apply to any of this, they're both 100% accurate: they go where you tell them, mice just allow more precision in giving it the "where" instruction). That's the whole point of his above post, and why even perfectly balanced a mouse will still have an edge.
Your numbered suggestions to "balance" the two are absolutely ********, not how it would or ever will be implemented, and completely BREAK mouse use and make them actively WORSE than controllers, so it does achieve your goal: making the support and use of a proper, superior control scheme for shooters moot.
You are right, though, that the controller offers greater movement control. Once we get complete key remapping, I might look into using a Navigation controller and mouse in combination, I think it might work extremely well...
The advantage to the keyboard, though, is that you have ready access to a lot more controls simultaneously, which can also make a difference (weapon / equipment selection alone would be massively improved by simply hitting the corresponding slot number).
As to the ninja edit you did earlier, while you could try arguing that, there's a bit of a difference between a device that allows you to make infinitely fast key presses without ever getting tired, and a device that simply allows faster and more precise input of what you're trying to tell it to do. There's a reason you don't see anyone shout "cheater" for using an arcade stick vs the standard controller in a fighting game, but you'll hear that call almost instantly if someone brings out a turbo controller. There's a difference between an advantage, and an unfair, unreasonable advantage.
Those turbo controllers also bring up some pretty big issues (and oversights / bugs) themselves, like games that don't properly hard-limit the RoF on semi-auto weapons. With a turbo controller, you could turn a pistol into an SMG, even though the actual weapon could never cycle that fast (and certainly no human could pull the trigger that fast).
All we're talking about with a mouse is actually having our inputs precisely and quickly translated and applied, within the limits of the game. We're not trying to break past what isn't normally possible. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 12:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:^^^
As long as the natural superior accuracy of the mouse is not negated it will always have an advantage.
It will take always more effort for me to move (at the same speed) my reticule on your head usign the less accurate DS3 rahter then you using the mouse.
No pal, the only way to balance the mouse is to make it exactly as fast/accurate as the analog stick.
And as I said above, it would then be better to have never implemented it because a mouse is good only if it fully behaves as a mouse.
Again, quite simply, no. Doing that completely breaks a mouse, while doing it PROPERLY simply leaves it more precise but only really shows a difference between two equally skilled players.
You're welcome to head back to Halo or CoD or wherever, but KB/M support is coming, and it's going to be real KB/M support, not ****-poor emulation that is completely non-functional like you describe and is found on those half-ass mouse controllers like the FragFX and SplitFish. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 12:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:^^^
Hey, I know it's a NO.
I know that solution is not feasible but hell the msoue can't keep its accuracy because it would still be advantaged.
The mouse is exactly as accurate as a controller. The mouse is more PRECISE than a controller. There is physically no way to prevent this advantage, it's an innate fact of the control mechanism (moving it where you want it, vs holding down and timing the release of an analog stick).
At the same time, though, the same things that make mice better than controllers for shooters make those sticks better for flying than mice: you can just hold down your stick, I have to keep picking up and moving my mouse repeatedly (and you can bet I'll be putting my mouse down and picking up a controller when I'm flying a dropship, or the fighters that we hopefully get later). |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.08 13:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:So PC players now need to have their confront zone in a PS3 game.
Dear lord why bother bringing this game on PS3...oh yes we PS3 FPS players are millions while EVE players are just 400k.
Not about comfort zone (are you projecting? are you afraid to try using good controls for an FPS?), it's about "why the **** should we have to settle for the second worst possible control scheme for an FPS? (the worst being a steering wheel). We'll tolerate controllers for FPS games that are truly awesome, finish the single player, and move on. But you're not keeping anyone without keyboard and mouse support, because the console kids move on regardless once the new shiny comes out. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 16:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:Geirskoegul wrote: We'll tolerate controllers for FPS games that are truly awesome, finish the single player, and move on. This makes Dust 514 not awesome then otherwise you would tolerate the controller in it.
Were there a single player to be had, it would be played and completed, then dismissed. Since there's not, you'd see me here until PlanetSide 2 came out, which if this didn't have keyboard and mouse support, would be the better game. Since we're getting keyboard and mouse support, it's a non-issue, since after the next patch I won't have to tolerate a horribly ill-suited and inferior control system for FPS games.
Vetis Cato wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Templar Two wrote:^^^
Frankly MKB won't be the reason why Dust 514 will fail and CCP will close. What the heck gives you the idea that that's even a possibility? You do realize that this entire project is funded off of what they make -solely- from EVE, right? Part of what they layed out in 2009 was that if some natural disaster were to wipe out the entire player base of EVE or Dust, whichever game was left would still work. The two games cooperate, but are also designed to be self-sufficient within their own bounds. Not having Dust would never kill EVE. hate to point it out but i think sony bought the sole rights, hence one of the reasons (among others) is a ps3 exclusive. so believe sony gave a large part of the funding.
Considering the Sony Online Entertainment has no clue about anything to do with Dust (I bought the merc pack, items aren't showing up over a week later, so I spent a couple hours on the phone with PSN and SOE support last night), and PSN thinks SOE is handling it.
CCP still owns the rights. The reason that the 360 version was scrapped is multiple. MSFT is very limiting of what you can do on the 360. They fought tooth and nail against letting CCP use their own servers (XBL is normally 100% peer-to-peer for gameplay, there ARE no servers). They wanted CCP to require people to pay for XBL Gold, as well, which CCP wasn't ok with. In the end, they went from "PS3 and 360" to "PS3 exclusive." There's no deal or contract involved that I'm aware of, it's simply PS3 exclusive by default since MSFT wasn't being reasonable, Sony was being reasonable, and they have no plans to make a PC version at this time (though they've hinted it may be a possibility in the future, they've made a point of not even hinting at anything conclusive, only going so far as to say that it technically could be done.) |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.08 17:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:Geirskoegul wrote:
Were there a single player to be had, it would be played and completed, then dismissed. Since there's not, you'd see me here until PlanetSide 2 came out, which if this didn't have keyboard and mouse support, would be the better game. Since we're getting keyboard and mouse support, it's a non-issue, since after the next patch I won't have to tolerate a horribly ill-suited and inferior control system for FPS games.
I don't follow you here: which one is better for you PS 2 or Dust 514? By the way I am happy to be a PS3 player even with my inferior controller. I have played too many FPS on PC to deny that the mouse is not better (if not too easy for me now) but that never stopped me from playing a game on PS3, even a FPS. My most pleasant memories in gaming have been with a controller in my hands and I won't apologies for this. We are not inferior because we use controllers and actually the fact that we can still be amazing with controller tells a lot. I hope you don't think inferior controller = inferior player.
I'm sorry you're having so much difficulty with basic concepts.
Without mouse support, PS2 would almost certainly end up being the better game, or at least damn near close, so having proper controls would set it ahead. With mouse support, Dust 514 eliminates the headache of using horrible controls, and thus that massive negative point that would have had to be overcome to be worth playing.
It hasn't stopped me from playing good shooters on console. The fact that they were so good is what kept me playing the Resistance series, and at least the single player modes of the Killzone series (overall "feel" of the game wasn't as good, couldn't quite put my finger on it, it just didn't seem to handle right, regardless of the controls as a factor; amazing story though, and well worth putting up with the controller for that), in spite of the horrible controls and headaches of using a controller in a game style that just isn't built for them.
Now you're introducing a strawman, though. I never said controller users were inferior players. I have the utmost respect for players that can be good in spite of such a horrible control interface for these games. There are players that are better with a controller than those with a mouse. There are those that are better with a mouse than the other guy with a controller. This is a simple fact. As you rightly identify, though, mice are simply superior for FPS games, as they are the fastest and most precise interface for putting crosshairs on a target.
Complaining that it's easy is also a strawman in itself. Is it easier to use a mouse than a controller? Of course it is! It's the better control for this type of game! Would you say "it's too easy" as an argument against buying a steering wheel to play GT5, rather than using the controller? Of course not, because it's a racing game, and a steering wheel offers more granular and precise control (there's a reason that the design has survived well over a century in the real world!). Likewise, you shouldn't be using "it's too easy" as an argument against using a mouse. It's a FPS, and a mouse offers faster and more precise control. Using a controller is artificially raising the difficulty, for no real return, by adding the issue of fighting against a poorly-suited control scheme. That's rather silly, but some people just prefer certain control schemes, regardless of the situational merits. That's fine. But let the rest of us use real controls and stop the whinging. We're getting real controls, that's not changing, and the whinging just pisses people off. |
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Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.08 17:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:Geirskoegul wrote:...That's rather silly, but some people just prefer certain control schemes, regardless of the situational merits. That's fine. But let the rest of us use real controls and stop the whinging. We're getting real controls, that's not changing, and the whinging just pisses people off... You are not in love with the DS3 but hey that's fine...this thought doesn't mean controllers are not "real controls". Really the best/greatest minds in the video-game industry use controllers for their games, even FPS, so frankly I don't think you are in the position to say they are not "real controls".
What are the measurable, objective criteria you're basing your claim on?
I actually really like the DS3, it's the best console controller on the market, IMO (i like the size and shape of the 360 controller better, but the button layout and design on the PS3 controller is far better, as it allows more comfortable access to more controls simultaneously, without having to remove fingers from other controls, like the 360 forces you to do).
I'm still only going to use it when either A) the game is best played with a controller (this is NEVER the case with an FPS), or B) I'm forced to. That's it. Why would I willingly use the wrong tool for the job? Why would I willingly use something that just can't do it as well as another tool? I'm not going to beat a nail in with a screwdriver, and I'm not going to remove the tire on my car with a hammer. Likewise, I'm sure as hell not going to use a controller for a shooter when using a mouse is an option. Not providing that option basically sets a fixed life span on the game from the start: it'll last until the next game comes out (in this case, PlanetSide 2).
All moot, though, since we ARE getting keyboard and mouse in the next patch, and so there's nothing to worry about. We'll have real controls soon :) |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
|
Posted - 2012.07.15 12:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
GSP GoTSoMePoT wrote:well lets not stop ther why not put the xboxs 360 controller on the ps3 so every boddy is happy...
Actually, there've been adapters on the market since shortly after the PS3 launched to allow you to use a PS3 controller on the 360 or a (wired) 360 controller on the PS3. Since it's just a matter of translating button signals from one into the language of the other (for the most part) it's quite easy and works perfectly or nearly so, unlike the adapters and custom controllers to translate a keyboard and mouse to send the game controller messages.
Jin-roh Hayasaki wrote:Back in 2007, Shadowrun came out and was the first game (I believe) to allows cooperative play between a console and PC. Immediately it became apparent that KB/M users had the upper hand due to the better responsiveness KB/M offers. That game quickly fizzled.
Just to be clear, Shadowrun died because the game was absolute ****, and MSFT thought PC gamers were stupid enough to pay them money for server-less games. Its failure had nothing to do with the mouse advantage over a controller. Did you see similar happen with UT3? Because that supported keyboard and mouse, too (and even player made mods).
Aaron Atreides wrote:Billy Pinkerton wrote:I wonder if we will be able to play with any KB/M or a specific companies/type.
Would be nice to use my Razer,even cooler if I could use a nostromo. lol Yeah my G5 and N52TE are just waiting to be used again, I can not wait for k/m support!! If you're afraid of the k/m then you have issues.
PS3 supports all USB and bluetooth peripherals of the TYPES supported by the games / software in question. When CCP releases the next build, ALL USB (and wireless via USB dongle) and bluetooth keyboards and mice will work.
Sephoran Griffith wrote:What everyone seems to be ignoring is that most people play on their PS3 in the living room. Not usually a place where you have a desk in front of you. Who really wants to be sitting on the couch with a keyboard awkwardly balanced in their lap and a mouse on the side? KB/M is associated with PC because that is what it is designed and primarily used to operate. Game consoles are primarily controlled and operated via Controller.
What you are saying is "I know that I am choosing to play on a device primarily operated by controller, but what I want is for a completely different input device to be supported (and preserve the unfair advantage it gives me over the rest of this console user base) so that I can continue to use my 'leet skillz' to win this game."
CCP chose PS3 as the platform for this game. If you don't like playing shooters on PS3 (the good and the bad that comes with it) then don't play it.
Demanding KB/M support on PS3 games makes no more sense than going boating, but demanding that the boat driving controls emulate the controls in your car because you are more familiar and 'skilled' with it.
This is PS3. the main input is controller. If you want KB/M then you need to accept that it is going to need to be modified to balance and be fair to everyone using a controller. If you cannot accept that, go check out Ghost Recon Online when it comes out for PC and leave the DUST community alone.
I already sit closer to the screen on FPS games (easier to catch small movements at great range), moving a tray table in front of the chair to put the keyboard and mouse on is a non-issue.
What we're saying is that we want to play what promises to be an awesome game, and we want to play it with controls that don't suck. Nothing more and nothing less. If you choose not to use those controls, that is your prerogative, but it's not justification to force are horrifically bad control scheme on people that would otherwise like the game, and cause those players to ditch as soon as PS2 launches (in all likelihood, the majority of the console kids will be jumping ship with the next CoD/BF release regardless).
Further, your assertion that making it console means we have to suffer with a controller is false in every way. PlayStation 2 had FPS games that supported keyboard and mouse. PS3 has FPS games that support keyboard and mouse. And your argument falls apart, as others indicated, when you apply it to anything that isn't the default controller, such as Kinect, Move, steering wheels, arcade sticks, Steel Battalion's controller, etc. There's NOTHING saying you have to stick to the default controller just because it's the default the system came with. Even the Atari systems had multiple different controller types used for various games (anyone remember the number-pad controller used for Star Raiders?)
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Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 12:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:there is also no balance if you actually ban KB&M. it is already possible to convert the mouse and keyboard signals to gamepad signal with additional devices that cost 60 Gé¼ or you can buy modded mouse+additional controller that works as ps3 controller which is also expensive. those people owning such devices already have the advantage, I would rather see KB&M being in the game thus everyone can use it without having to spend alot of money for it.
If you read earlier in the thread, I offered a lot of info about those devices. They're generally horrible and actually WORSE than controllers. Supposedly some of the more expensive ones that include a box that translates and adjusts and guesses (it's basically a mini-computer in itself) work well, but the "mouse controllers" are all complete crap and far worse than just the controller itself. I wish it weren't the case, but it is.
Chew B0CCA wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:CCP David Reid has been saying in all of his interviews that the Closed Beta first started in late 2011. Now stop arguing. Yes, I know. Elum, however, seems to think otherwise. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink.
I'd sure love to see a linked source to the claim. Unless you just mean "closed testing" in the sense that any and all games go through long before anyone outside the company ever sees it. Of course there was testing before we saw the trailer in 2009 (or was it 2008? I forget, was a long time ago). What matters is when people from outside CCP itself first touched it, which to the best of my and others' knowledge, started this year.
I'll gladly change my tune if you can link a credible source, rather than simply making bold assertions that contradict the common view. It sounds like David Reid is talking about internal testing of the build intended for the beta.
Doing some quick searching turns up what we all knew: the timeline has slipped. Most statements appear to say "closed beta in winter 2011" and "release in summer 2012." Seeing as the beta started in late spring / summer 2012, and release is nowhere in sight, it sounds like you're basing your assertions on inaccurate, obsolete information that was based on PLANNED timeline, not what actually happened.
DeadlySounds wrote:Corvid Fox wrote:I personally can't wait for KB/Mouse support. My old FragFX isnt compatible with my ps3 anymore. Boooo. get eagle eye. it gets updates so that it can always be compatible. The set up can take some time but it works great. Now only problem i found with it is that in bf3 you want to use controller close if you use jets, tanks, or the like because that is where the controller is much better for handling.... good hunting
And that's how you should be playing: the right tool for the job. That's why I have a Saitek x52 Flight System on my desk for ArmA2 and BF3: mice aren't good for flying (i like it for the tanks and turrets though, at least in BF3, since it doesn't really behave any differently than when you're on foot, so it still keeps its advantage, just gotta tap the DPI toggle up on the mouse) |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 13:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
BAD FURRY wrote:GM Fabulous wrote:Hello everyone.
To keep you informed on this subject, KB&M support is coming. We currently plan to release it in the next major beta patch (build). so i gest no one remembers E3 CSS Xbox vs PC and halo xbox vs pc it was pc that won all the time and the xbox guys only won 4 games in all 6 yrs so as for hearing this CCP why not just turn your game into a PC and MAC only game then because its no longer the 1st of its kind any more . what would have been a 1st mmo pc in real time with a FPS console game you made by adding KB&M something that's been done be for like 2 times by now . which is a MMO PC in real time with FPS PC . but if that's were your going with this KB&M add a PC FPS to it then to hell with dust 514 i was only hopping to be part of the 1st to play a MMO PC in real time with FPS console game. not something that's been done be for as for sov i guest this makes it better seeing how we are not begging COD kids or MAG fags to shut up about there k/d.s and f#cking win the game so we can take and hold are sov . so not that there just going to camp and hide and rack up only kills from the def team as the MCC go.s up in flames ! For the 5th time in the row because most COD and MAG gamers are all alike in that is K/D is 1st not the game or who they are fighting for . 2nd that the pay outs should only be 5 mill at most because any more then they would just sit back and make isk off us and not give a dam if they win or loss . Any thing higher then 5 mill and they will not even try to win when all they need is a good K/D and points and seeing how they dont get hurt if they lost. they still get payed for showing up and with mill suits and guns even more so to make them think this eve games a joke and K/D is all ways god ! so ya KB&M ok for sov but still on the other hand i like alot of beta gamers wanted to be playing the 1st of its kind.  its hard to say which is the right thing to do but who am i im just a beta tester playing what looks like a rely cool game that growing up into a game that i want to play with my other game eve. i dont want KB&M but i dont want to have to get down on my keens like you do to a 7 yr old and tell and show them how to do something that i want and not want they want ! with is sov i want to keep my sov and i want to take it . i what i dont want to do is pay over and over agen trying to fined a team that's not in it for K/D. but there are things that CCP if you do keep KB&M out of dust is to fix it so that its hard to camp and hard to get a hi k/d even if you are a K/D ***** . if any thing K/D should come with team work not running around with a AR or riding a tank or drop-ship and taking down the other team and not giving a **** about the MCC. and as for dust guys getting into my ship and taking it over! no your not going to pod me im all ready in station HOPE YOU LIKE A SHIP FULL OF C4 SCRUBS !!!!! .....and yes i hit the BIG RED BUTTON !
1) I played CS:S on the X-Box. I suck with a controller. It was the first time I'd ever played CS:S, I couldn't even figure out how to buy stuff at first, and it was STILL a massacre, with me topping the leaderboard 8 consecutive matches and then turning it off because of how bad a joke the opposition was. Of course the PC players wiped the floor with them, CS:S players are some of the most hardcore FPS gamers in the world (it's STILL pretty much THE standard for serious FPS competitions), and it's been out for years; X-Box hadn't been out long at all, and it and the PS2 were the first consoles with usable FPS controls since GoldenEye. The X-Box kids never stood a chance, regardless of control scheme.
2) Halo isn't a particularly good example either, just given the type of game it is. It's 100% pure twitch. No turnspeed limits other than what you set sensitivity to (with controller or mouse), and autoaim out the rear that in all likelihood was screwing up some good console players' shots. Regardless, no one uses Halo as a benchmark except for sales figures; the entire franchise has been remarkable in no other category.
The better question is how did things go in UT3 on PS3, which supported keyboard and mouse. Considering I've never once seen any real complaints that were based on experience (solely just opposition to the concept of mice on a console at all), I'm betting it fit reality: the difference between mouse and keyboard only really upsets balance when you take two people of equal skill, ALL other factors identical, in which case the superior speed and precision of mouse input gives that player the edge. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 17:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
GSP GoTSoMePoT wrote:99% of all PS3 Console online FPSs do not have any suport for KB/M by dev. or SONY 's request. To keep the game as a Console game . And to give the players even playing field . ( Every ones using Controlers ) Now you got the Move which sucks at most shooters but in some games its fun to play with. But thats a PS3 exc. PC is open competitive gaming. KB/M or Controler . Anything goes. If you got the $ . Console is Clean competitive gaming . Controler . Not anything goes. Not If you got the $ . Wen you are going to a PC gaming competition its 99 % all KB/M.. Wen you are going to a PS3 , Xbox , Wil Console gaming competition its 99 % all Controlers. Theres a resin for having no suport for KB/M on the Console for online FPSs.( Clean Gaming ) If there is any KB/M suport in a Console game for FPS its for internet browser, texting and chatting not for playing. Not saying ther aren't some who bend the rules. To them I say ( Clean your Game up ) And the hole if you can't beat them join them thing . Not going to work or happen here . This is not a madhouse like on PC . ( Anything goes ) A Console heart and sole is the ( Controler / exc. Games ) Stop trying to Hotz fix every thing. Like I'd said some of you need to go back and read the terms and conditions to installing 4.21 software update for the PS3.You are suppose to have a ( Clean ) PS3 Gaming Console for online game play . Pick your Game Up. In multi platfrom Gaming. I can see the potential in this game but there are some gray aeras and lines that should not be cross .  Just like to keep my Console Gaming Clean . What happens in space ships happens in spaces .  Just think about what you're being told . I don't think ther will be a full intergration of the two games. A balance of the two with a line in the middle .Maybe. Ther will have to be a stopping point some where. EvE players do pay to play ther game. Full intergration will mean PS3 Console players can go out in to EvE's univers for free. While paying EvE players can come to the planet. Why pay to play on PC wen you can come to the Console and play for free. That doesn't look good for CCP. Ther will have to be a stopping point some where. Could this be the gray aera : Now if you are going to put KB/M to ship operation . Like for ships in orbit around the DUST planet thats fine. KB/M In internet browser , texting , chatting , In ship , In space station , In ship operation and In station operation Only . FPS Controler . That will be fine , ok , good and etc. Could this be the line : But if you are going to let the KB/M in to the SHOOTER part thats not fine. It will be unfair for the ones using the PS3 Gaming Console Controlers . Theres got to be a balance in the middle.  Just can't believe thers so much suport out there for Online Console Multi Player Cheating these days .. Its just sad . Sad I tell you .. ( Clean your Game Up )  ( Stop suporting Online Console Multi Player Cheating ) ( Its Wrong ) ( Some say they want KB/M on Console for Competitive reason.) Play Anything goes PC. For the right $. ( Some say they don't want the KB/M on PS3 Console for online FPS for Competitive reason . ) Play Clean as you go PS3 Console . For Free . ( Just think about what you're being told . ) CCP said they are going to( add ) KB/M to the game . But not what they were adding it to ..
Sony has never made any such request that games not support keyboard and mouse, it is, as it always has been, up to the developer and publisher of the game. They explicitly permit it, and even make that freedom and openness a selling point to potential developers for the platform.
You're also fabricating reasons, though MSFT's justification for explicitly prohibiting keyboard and mouse is, as you say, that they fear us mouse users slaughtering their little controller-using, subscription-paying sheep (which is ironic, since most PC players aren't stupid enough to pay MSFT to use their own NIC in the first place, so they'd never have to worry about us slaughtering their sheep with our mice).
What you really mean is that consoles are restrictive, and PCs allow you to use the control mechanism that best suits the game, your preferences, and your playstyle. By restricting the consoles, you ensure that everyone uses the same controller, regardless of whether it's any good or the player prefers it. Meanwhile PC allows players' skill to shine through, by not forcing them to use an ill-suited control scheme, a control scheme they don't like, or a control scheme they're not good with. By removing the choice, you insert artificial obstacles to the gameplay. By giving that choice, everyone has the potential to use the best control scheme, the one they're most comfortable with, whatever, and thus eliminating control scheme as a point to blame (listen to your comms in a console FPS and see how many times a PC gamer starts cussing because a ridiculously easy shot was missed due to how ****** joysticks are for shooters).
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Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 17:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
When you game on PC, you run into users of all control schemes, though your hardcore ones are going to use the best tool for the job: controller for platformers and fighters, wheel for racing, stick / flight system for flying games, etc. On console, you'll see people using wheels for racing games, controllers, and what few games support keyboard and mouse will generally be a mix of controllers and people cheering at being able to use good controls in the form of keyboard and mouse. Citing statistics for numbers of users (especially completely fabricated ones, as is the case in your post) isn't exactly applicable when the majority don't offer a choice in the matter. Saying "99% of console users use a controller) would be a lot more meaningful if 99% of games had another option to choose from.
As you say, there is a reason for the lack of support: lazy developers, poorly if not completely unjustified fear of the "damage" from mouse users (when most wouldn't notice they were killed by a mouse vs a controller; they'd certainly try to blame the mouse users though, because it couldn't possibly be because they just suck), etc. At the end of the day, your "clean gaming" fantasy is nothing more than that. It has nothing to do with some wishy-washy ethical quandary. It's simply a matter of dev time, baseless fears, and laziness, and so supporting the control system that comes with the system itself.
A console's heart and sole is games. We've had multiple types of controllers, even for the same system, for as long as there've been consoles (see my Atari example from earlier.) As has been pointed out repeatedly, should racing game players be denied steering wheels and pedals, because of the massive increase in speed and precision that offers them? Of course not, they chose to use the right tool for the job. The control interface is simply the way we interact with the game. There's no good justification for making the control interface the way you PREVENT people from interacting with the game, as is the case when you refuse to support the right tool for the job (in the case of an FPS game, that tool is a mouse.)
As to your wonderful misrepresentation of the EULA, the "clean" means an unmodified system. The system supports keyboard and mouse, the PSN and Sony permit keyboard and mouse, and if the game chooses to support it, the games can allow keyboard and mouse (or any other control system) they want. There's nothing unclean about it.
If you want to keep your console gaming clean, then I would suggest disabling voice chat, ignoring text chat, and making sure to dust down the PS3 because damn does my launch model love collecting dust and fingerprints. Fortunately, my keyboard and mouse don't soil my system or my gaming. It's perfectly clean, isn't cheating, doesn't exploit bugs, and doesn't allow me to do anything that anyone else can't (though I can certainly do it more precisely, just like the guy with the wheel gets more precise control in his racing game.)
There's really no grey area at all. On the one hand, you have overwhelming fear and misinformation on the part of the console kiddies. On the other, you have people that want to have good controls and when they lose for it to be because they were the worse player, not because they were fighting against horrifically bad controls. But hey, if you don't think being forced to use bad controls is a negative, go play a racing game with a mouse instead of a stick or wheel. Go play a fighting game with a wheel and pedals. A less extreme example would be platformers with a keyboard and mouse instead of a controller; it's perfectly doable, but the mouse and keyboard are at the disadvantage here, as controllers offer better interfaces for how those games handle. It all comes back to being allowed to, and having the opportunity to use the right tool for the job. You're always free to choose not to, but things only get unfair when you try to remove that choice and force bad controls on someone else. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 17:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Crimson MoonV wrote:lol at forcing bad controls on people. KB/M is so easy I could put up a 5 kdr in any game if I used my fragnstien against people who are using controllers but wheres the fun in that. Its not even that hard to use a real controller. Adapt or die. I think a 'get good' is in order as well.
The fun is in the game actually doing what you told it to. I'm glad that you're good with a keyboard and mouse (hence it feeling "easy" to you), you shouldn't have any problem competing then, since you'll switch to a good control scheme and use the right tool for the job.
There's nothing fun about fighting against inferior controls, rather than your opponent. It's also not "easier," it simply works better. Calling it easier is like saying that it's easier to peel potatoes with a knife than with fingernail clippers. No **** it's easier, because it's actually well-suited to what you're trying to do, so you're not putting all your time and effort into using a poor tool that's not suited to the task, rather than actually accomplishing the task at hand.
We use mice for shooters because they're BETTER for shooters. We use wheels for racing games because they're BETTER for racing games. It's that simple. It's not about "easy" or "hard," it's about using what works best. In your argument, using a controller is like doing a no-consumables run in an MMO, or a zero-deaths run on the hardest difficulty (in any game.) Sure, it's harder to do it that way, but it's purely artificial (that's the whole point: artificially making it harder). It's probably not the best analogy, because doing that stuff legitimately increases the amount of tactics, reflexes and skill you have to have AT THE GAME, though. Forcing poor controls, rather than making the game more challenging, makes simply getting the game to do what you tell it to harder, and for no real gain in terms of achievement or skill.
By all means though, you're welcome to get good and adapt or die against those of us using good controls while you stubbornly stick to crappy ones and feel smug. At the end of the day, the better player tends to be the one that comes ahead, not the control interface (unless it's the interface you're less skilled with). The superiority of mice over controllers really only breaks the ties when players of equal skill meet and everything else is the same. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 17:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hazel Hiss wrote:Phantomnom wrote:Here's a tip, get off your aiming crutch and learn to play with a CONSOLE CONTROLLER. YEAH!!!!! WE HAVE 12 YEAR OLD KIDS AND COOKIES!!!!! COME TO THE DARK SIDE, BITCHES!
Does this mean the really hardcore console players use d-pad only, instead of the sticks? That way they have even less control over what they're actually doing? Because clearly, intentionally using controls that offer horribly low speed or precision is where it's at. Using controls that are actually well-suited is for noobs  |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 18:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
GSP GoTSoMePoT wrote:Thats fine I can us the KB/M and Controler together if need be. CCP said they are going to( add ) KB/M to the game . But not what they were adding it to ..
WTF is that even supposed to mean? lol
We were promised KB/M support, full-stop.
That said, don't think it hasn't occurred to me to try using the Move navigation controller in my left hand and the mouse in the other, for a theoretically ideal control combo (probably stick to the keyboard though, just more comfortable, and you should always be moving full speed, pretty much, so the extra movement control of a stick compared to keys isn't really that big of a deal). |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 18:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
Crimson MoonV wrote:Geirskoegul wrote:Crimson MoonV wrote:lol at forcing bad controls on people. KB/M is so easy I could put up a 5 kdr in any game if I used my fragnstien against people who are using controllers but wheres the fun in that. Its not even that hard to use a real controller. Adapt or die. I think a 'get good' is in order as well. The fun is in the game actually doing what you told it to. I'm glad that you're good with a keyboard and mouse (hence it feeling "easy" to you), you shouldn't have any problem competing then, since you'll switch to a good control scheme and use the right tool for the job. There's nothing fun about fighting against inferior controls, rather than your opponent. It's also not "easier," it simply works better. Calling it easier is like saying that it's easier to peel potatoes with a knife than with fingernail clippers. No **** it's easier, because it's actually well-suited to what you're trying to do, so you're not putting all your time and effort into using a poor tool that's not suited to the task, rather than actually accomplishing the task at hand. We use mice for shooters because they're BETTER for shooters. We use wheels for racing games because they're BETTER for racing games. It's that simple. It's not about "easy" or "hard," it's about using what works best. In your argument, using a controller is like doing a no-consumables run in an MMO, or a zero-deaths run on the hardest difficulty (in any game.) Sure, it's harder to do it that way, but it's purely artificial (that's the whole point: artificially making it harder). It's probably not the best analogy, because doing that stuff legitimately increases the amount of tactics, reflexes and skill you have to have AT THE GAME, though. Forcing poor controls, rather than making the game more challenging, makes simply getting the game to do what you tell it to harder, and for no real gain in terms of achievement or skill. By all means though, you're welcome to get good and adapt or die against those of us using good controls while you stubbornly stick to crappy ones and feel smug. At the end of the day, the better player tends to be the one that comes ahead, not the control interface (unless it's the interface you're less skilled with). The superiority of mice over controllers really only breaks the ties when players of equal skill meet and everything else is the same. LMFAO The people that use KB/M against console players on console games are the same people that take steroids and then brag about how many home runs they have. I will still wreck you with my inferior controller barry bonds. I don't even need my frag. That is a promise. If you like playing KB/M in fps there are pc games you can play. If you are going to buy a console game with the intention of playing with KB/M then I am going to laugh in your face after I wreck you with my 6 axis. 
Wow, just when you think the anti-mouse argument can't get any more stupid... |
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Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 18:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Crimson MoonV wrote:Whatever, I'm not anti mouse. I used to be a PC gamer. I'm anti Mouse vs 6 axis. You are a scrub if you need KB/M to well against people with inferior controls and deep down you all know its true.
Not even remotely true. Just a matter of not liking to intentionally gimp myself by using controls horrible for the gameplay. But hey, you're welcome to use a racing wheel to play this, or a move to play a racing game, if you think using controls that suck fro the gameplay makes your more badass. Me? I like my deaths to be due to the other guy being better than me, not me having to fight with ****** controls that don't even make it POSSIBLE to input the command you really want (i.e. move here; no, we have to add 3 imprecise steps of hold down, release, go back and correct, instead of simply putting it where I want, as is much close to what I do with a real gun).
In the end though, if blaming my superior controls for your death helps you sleep at night, go for it. I know the fact that controllers suck for FPS games helps me feel better about only having a 1.3 K/D (especially in an objective-based game, because I'm pretty suicidal if I think it'll help me achieve the objective). Knowing that we're getting good controls in the next build makes me feel even better than that, since I know ****** controls won't be a factor in missing or dying anymore. So much better when it's skill that is the cause of a miss or loss, as opposed to ****** controls or interface. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 18:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
Crimson MoonV wrote:Its not even hard to use a 6 axis. You are a joke if you need to use a mouse against people with inferior controls. You can have your KB/M. I will still wreck you with a 6 axis all day Barry Bonds. To bad you can't buy gun game with AUR.
Use a controller to play House of the Dead, then. See, using ****** controls makes you badass (or just stupid...)
Seriously though, you will try to wreck me with your sixaxis, and if you're actually as good as you think you are, we might actually have a fun match. If you're not, I'll win. If you're better than me, you'll win. And thanks to choice in controls, it won't be because of ****** ones determining the victor beforehand. If we're equally skilled, well, I'll gladly take the advantage I have over you by not having to fight against poor controls you have to.
Because at the end of the day, that's how it plays out. It eliminates unfamiliar / poor controls as part of the equation, or at least minimizes it. Unless EVERYTHING else is equal, including the actual core skill of the player with their preferred control method, you don't see much difference (other than the mouse user dying a lot less than he would with a controller, because he's not fighting with ****** controls). If everything IS equal, including your relative skill with your controls, that's the only time that you see the mouse advantage being the deciding factor. The rest of the time, it just reduces the amount of frustration and complaining from people that want decent controls (and helps keep people playing your game, since they're not SUFFERING through ****** controls to play).
GSP
Please hit puberty and learn to make a properly-structured post. Even trying to read that gives me a headache, never mind trying to make any actual sense out of your inane rambling. Please tell me you're a Goon. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 21:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
Crimson MoonV wrote:The fact of the matter is its 100x easier to use a mouse in fps. If you are using a mouse against console players you have a distinct advantage over everyone else.
And a steering wheel is 100x easier for racing games. A good flight system is 100x easier for flight sims. A controller is 100x easier for fighting games and platformers. And I think anyone that played the original Steel Battalion knows how the Kinect one turned out.
Your point is, quite simply, invalid in its entirety. Using the correct control method for a given game type provides better control, and is easier since you're not having to make up for inferior controls. In other news, screwdrivers are better at screwing in screws than a crowbar; ban / nerf screwdrivers!
Drive your car with your feet, use a racing wheel to play a platformer, and play the 360 version of Steel Battalion. If using the wrong tool for the job because it's "harder" warrants whinging about how using the right tool is easier, go do what I just said, and then I want you to explain to everyone using the right tool, when they kill you, that you only lost because they used the "easy" control, and that it had nothing to do with the fact that you insisted on using the INFERIOR or WRONG tool for the job.
Your argument is, quite simply, entirely without merit.
PS
If you didn't realize, there are silly people that use controllers on PC, too. They do better than they would with a keyboard and mouse because they're just not good with a keyboard and mouse. More power to them. But at least they aren't stupid enough to whinge about someone using the better tool when they get beaten. No one is forcing you to continue using that inferior tool here on Dust, you're more than welcome to use a keyboard and mouse like myself and many others plan to. We're just glad that we won't be forced to use ill-suited, inferior controls. Luckily for you, there's choice in the matter. You're welcome to CHOOSE to continue using inferior controls, and you're also welcome to embrace the superior controls. Everyone wins. But don't let me catch you whinging if / when you die, because you chose to use the inferior controls, no one held a blaster to your head and forced you.
GSP GoTSoMePoT wrote:Thats fine I can us the KB/M and Controler together if need be. Just saying Its a littel difficult trying to play two games with two KB/M on two different platforms at the same time .
You've never multiboxed have you? :P EVE players are the masters of multiasking. I only have four accounts, though, so I suppose there's room for improvement. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 22:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
ROIZENGH wrote:If this does get KB/M controlls it would **** up things for console gamers, the difference on the control you get is just to big, lets face it you a console player wont last to a KB/M player
Except this has been thoroughly and repeatedly disproven, and we ARE getting KB/M. If you feel it would be too much for you to cope with you could always (*GASP!*) use a keyboard and mouse too, and then you too would have the ideal controls for an FPS, and the disadvantage of using a controller would disappear. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 23:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
Deskalkulos Ildigan wrote:Geirskoegul wrote:ROIZENGH wrote:If this does get KB/M controlls it would **** up things for console gamers, the difference on the control you get is just to big, lets face it you a console player wont last to a KB/M player Except this has been thoroughly and repeatedly disproven, and we ARE getting KB/M. If you feel it would be too much for you to cope with you could always (*GASP!*) use a keyboard and mouse too, and then you too would have the ideal controls for an FPS, and the disadvantage of using a controller would disappear. You know what? **** ideal controls, **** your "adapt or die" method, we are playing on consoles so that we won't be bothered by the "ideal control mechanism for Egoshooters" so **** off and play with your lovely overpriced razer KB/M combo, which would most likely not even work properly on the ps3, on your pc. On a sidenote: I know that kb/m is coming, and i know we can't do anything about it, but your completely ignorant mindset, your blatantly KB/M gloryfying attitude makes me real mad. I'd like to see you when some boy comes and say:"Well Justin Beiber is singing the songs for Dust514 so you could either cope with it or (GASP!) by the ******* overpriced album and shut up" - In this case you couldn't do anything against beiber singing the songs but i am pretty sure it would be still annoying as hell with all those beliebers swarming all over the place. Worst case scenario: First everyone have to get KB/M to stay competitive, then they have to buy some overpriced elitist extreme gamer remix KB/M Combos to stay competitve. Best case scenario: KB/M support sucks hard so that KB/M elitists either rage quit and sell their PS3, or adapt to the DS3 / Move controller. (and i actually do believe this ones more probable, with all those extra drivers needed for any good mouse / keyboards).
You're right, we're playing on consoles. Consoles which are nothing more than computers in a pretty box. Computers that can support keyboards and mice. Computers for which KB/M support has been promised and confirmed.
Isn't choice wonderful? You can choose to continue using an inferior control method, and if you think its inferiority is really messing up with your chances, you can choose to use a superior control scheme. If you're better with an inferior method (some are, no shame in that), you can keep using it, and guess what? 9 times out of 10, you'll do just fine against others, because your skill matters a hell of a lot more than your control scheme. The real difference with controls is one's familiarity and ability WITH them. The innate superiority of a mouse, as repeatedly explained, simply doesn't become a significant factor until everything else is identical between the two players.
I'm kind of curious what this "uber extreme ultra gamer remix KB/M" you're fantasizing about is, though. What would it do? Play for you? As it stands, I didn't see a method to turn off auto-aim on the controller (there's a reason controllers always have autoaim, they're not as fast or precise as mice for FPS games), so if anything using a KB/M would make it more about the player's skill (though admittedly autoaim can screw you up as well, by pulling you off of a headshot and aiming for center mass; hard enough to put crosshairs over a target with a horrible interface like a joystick, even worse if you're fighting the autoaim to go for a smaller target, I've had it happen, though not in Dust so far).
You can be perfectly competitive with a controller. I can't even think of what fancy keyboard or mouse could provide a significant advantage compared to any old one, except perhaps mice with a DPI toggle right on them (which you can bet your ass I'll be using mine; always nice to be able to get more precision for the long shots, and turn it back down for when I need speed). Even that, though, isn't a massive avantage, though it definitely is an advantage. There's really not a whole lot you can do in an FPS other than using a mouse with a high DPI and a cable (to minimize input latency), and maybe a DPI toggle. You can do just fine with a 5 quid mouse, though. There's nothing I can see from the keyboard side that could provide an advantage, except maybe the USB pass-through on most good keyboards, which could be useful for those with the slim PS3s that only have two USB ports.
Finally, the ignorance is the part of those expressing your views, in spite of reality. I'm quite familiar with the situation. At the end of the day, the whinging is almost amusing, because it it's so completely meritless. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.15 23:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
Osiris Greywolf wrote:This is basically my opinion that I posted on a different thread but is my take on the situation with a bit of economics and common sense, (I'd give a few quotes except there appears to be to many to count.) allot of you K\bm guys appear to be coming out with you usual fallback, adapt or die. Well, suffice to say, most of the 60 million PS3 users you are talking about will, by simply responding yes to to the question "Are you sure you want to delete", though my point hear is that a lot of you appear to think that thats ok, we will still have a good game, and we don't want cod kids in here playing with us, a stereotype which makes about as much sense as all eve players are people who are unemployed and have no social lives.
All it really takes is a bit of basic economics. The PS3 target market isn't hardcore beta testers, but rather people who incorporate the use of a ps3 into their lives instead of people who incorporate their lives into the ps3. Ergo, one would think that any of the 60 million or so PS3 player would like a game where they actually don't have to spend 60$ to 120$ top of the line Kb\m from Alienware to own. One would also think that considering the fact that people are probably going to research the game and on finding out that to be the best at the game they'll need to get a kb\m, an imput device that a majority of PS3 players are probably going to be alien to for a FPS shooter, are going to be put off.
Now, to counter this, you'll probably say, but it's free, to which I say sure it's free, but do you really think thats going to matter Much if the game receives negativity from the PS3 community, which it will when everyone will complain about Kb\m, which they will, judging from the feedback on the forums.
Another argument being made is that kb\m is the superior imput device for an FPS. This is something that no rational person would argue against. However what I will say, is that that doesn't really matter. A PC shooter, to be successful needs to cater more to Kb\m to be successful, just as a PS3 shooter needs to cater to to Controller users. Why? Because they are the preferred method of imput, and users will stick with their preferred of imput because thats how they interact with a game. To give an out of video gaming industry example, but one that Is perfectly relevant, just look at macintosh and Microsoft when they first split, one used a closed system, and one used an open system, and each got a different set of users.
I could elaborate more, but if you've read this far, your probably getting bored, so I'll leave you there, but if you want me to go on, just ask, and I'll expect that you won't do it nicely. now feel free to misquote me, call me dumb, and tell me to adapt or die, because to be honest, I, like most other PS3 users, won't do either.
And for all the reasons you're wrong, it won't be an issue. When all else is the same, the mouse will have the advantage, that's what happens when you use the right tool for the job. You're welcome to use it too. No one cries "hax" when you use a steering wheel in a racing game. At the end of the day, most players will have no clue whether the guy that killed them was using a mouse, a DS3, or a Move (though you can bet they'll probably blame mice, given most of the ignorance and FUD the console kiddies have been spreading.)
"Baal Roo" wrote:There really is no use continuing this debate. The guys who are used to buying their advantage off of newegg and who want the goofy KBM style game play will likely never understand the concept of preferring a playing field that is as level as possible and leaves the advantages to those who are best at playing the game rather than who can buy the nicest equipment. These are the same type of guys who think modded controllers with macros and rapid fire are legit ways to win at multi player.
KBM game play is twitchy and goofball and overall leads to spazzy unrealisitic gameplay and ridiculously over accurate gun play. It's only "superior" in so far as it takes all of the fun and challenge out of FPS by degrading gameplay to a high speed point and click adventure game.
Quite simply, you've no clue what you're talking about, and have never played any of the countless good, tactical shooters on PC. Even PlanetSide, a relatively fast-paced twitchy game, was very heavy on tactics and use of cover. Meanwhile some of the least-tactical, twitchiest games have been console shooters: CoD and Halo spring to mind.
Your comparison of the use of a mouse to allow more precise control over actions that are even more precise in real life, to the use of modded controllers to achieve physical impossibilities (turbo button) is disingenuous at best, and absolutely ridiculous at worst. At the end of the day, though, everyone is welcome to use the control scheme they choose to.
There's no more level playing field than the one in which everyone gets to make the choice about what they use. All you do by banning control methods is introduce IMBALANCE by forcing people to use inferior, ill-suited controls, and thus expend more effort fighting the ****** controls than actually playing the game. That's not balance, that's a handicap. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
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Posted - 2012.07.15 23:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
Oryx Offerton wrote:PS move is already probably giving an amount of accuracy that may outbalance the game because people will be aiming incredibly accurately.
MAG would be different if it didn't have PS move support because I wouldnt get killed as much, I would atleast have a chance.
PC controls wont make a huge difference, but will give players more accuracy over analog stick users...
So I think Move and KBM should not be in this game.
Except the Move controls aren't actually that great, since it uses an edge-push method for your look control, making it literally impossible to circlestrafe effectively. It's actually really bad, on both games. Now if they made the navigation controller handle turning and forward-backward motion, and the Move handle vertical movement of your view, but otherwise be an absolute firing point, THEN it would be an awesome and extremely precise (again, precise, not accurate; all controls are just as accurate, the difference is the level of precision enabled) way to play.
As it stands, though, mice offer the most precision, and do the most to eliminate the controls as a factor.
Again, though, at the end of the day, it doesn't make much difference what you use, if you're skilled with what you choose to use. It only becomes a tie breaker when you're completely evenly matched in all other ways. |
Geirskoegul
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Posted - 2012.07.15 23:24:00 -
[28] - Quote
Crimson MoonV wrote:You don't see me bringing a modded controller to the arcade. The fact of the matter is using a mouse is an unfair advantage and ccp knows this and will nerf kbm users and Im going to laugh in your face when your AR doesn't do **** on the battlefield because you suck with a 6 axis. Adapt or die scrub.
Forcing me to use a steering wheel in a platformer is an unfair advantage to the ones used to using steering wheels for platformers. Letting everyone use their preferred control method results in the fairest balance, since it eliminates controls as a factor. And again, you're being intentionally dishonest trying to compare the use of the right tool to improve the translation of what you want to in-game action, to that of using automation to achieve actions physically impossible otherwise (your modded turbo controller). |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
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Posted - 2012.07.15 23:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
XxSaya-ChanxX wrote:god, more and more crying about uhhh if i cant use a keyboard im going to leave uhhh this is the part where youre suppose to care uhhh yea.
Pleast stfu and gtfo then and stop whining, lol not every game that involves using the ps3 controller has aim assist,
lol so these are the eve players eh, i just got into eve myself and can happily say im NOT gonna turn out like them
mmmkay
I won't leave, I'll still play. Well, at least until PlanetSide 2 comes out and I have a similar game with controls that aren't absolute ****. Fortunately we're getting keyboard and mouse and everyone can use whatever controls they want, including the right tool for the job of FPS gaming: the keyboard and mouse. |
Geirskoegul
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Posted - 2012.07.15 23:55:00 -
[30] - Quote
Crimson MoonV wrote:No. adapt or die. It doesn't matter tbh. ccp is not stupid. They will nerf KB/M users and you will still get worked. because this is a console game and ccp will not give you an easy win.
So instead they should give people stubbornly sticking to inferior controls an advantage (that only matters if they're worse PLAYERS than the guy with the mouse) a leg up, so they can still think they're actually good? I'm sorry mate, but if you lose to another player, nine times out of ten, it's because you're the worst player. Force the mouse user to use ****** inferior controls like a controller and all you're doing is REMOVING that player's skill from the equation to give YOU an easy kill, since we're so busy fighting with inferior, imprecise controls that don't do what you bloody tell them to.
Fortunately there's no real way you CAN do what you're begging for. All you can do is hard-code the maximum turn speeds of suits, turrets, etc. At the end of the day, the mouse will allow greater precision, but all in all it'll be fairly balanced. And again, you can't have a more level playing field than allowing everyone the choice of how they control their game. Choosing to use inferior controls is no different than choosing to do a no-consumables run in an RPG; it's artificially making your life harder, but it's your choice (though at least the no-consumable one is a question of it taking greater skill; choosing to use inferior controls doesn't mean you have more skill, it just puts you at a slight disadvantage against another player of equal skill using superior controls.)
"Osiris Greywolf" wrote:No, sorry to tell you, but every time I tell someone that it'll have kb\m support, there reply is, I'm not playing that. As for your racing analogy, that's one of the most UPed analogys ever, a racing wheel doesn't offer as much an advantage was kb\m does. And as for people not knowing whether or not they were killed by a kb\m or Duelshock, your right, but they won't care, because they'll be playing cod, bf3 or rainbow six Patriots.
I'm sorry to hear that you hang out with a bunch of console kiddies that don't know what they're talking about, that sucks. The racing wheel doesn't offer the same advantage? Huh, last I checked it has a much greater range of motion, thus a much greater amount of precision and control, compared to a stick. The pedals further improve on this, by allowing again, greater range of motion and therefor precision, in applying breaks and acceleration. Similarly, a mouse offers greater speed and precision compared to a controller, as you simply move it the amount you want, as opposed to holding down a stick, timing the release of said stick, then correcting.
Whatever you choose to believe won't change the facts, and those are that the primary factor is still the player's skill; allowing keyboard and mouse just eliminates ****** controls from the equation, allows a skill player to actually play, rather than expending all their effort fighting against the ****** controls. This has been proven time and again.
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Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
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Posted - 2012.07.15 23:56:00 -
[31] - Quote
Crimson MoonV wrote:Aka-ahn wrote:Crimson MoonV wrote:Geirskoegul wrote:Crimson MoonV wrote:You don't see me bringing a modded controller to the arcade. The fact of the matter is using a mouse is an unfair advantage and ccp knows this and will nerf kbm users and Im going to laugh in your face when your AR doesn't do **** on the battlefield because you suck with a 6 axis. Adapt or die scrub. Forcing me to use a steering wheel in a platformer is an unfair advantage to the ones used to using steering wheels for platformers. Letting everyone use their preferred control method results in the fairest balance, since it eliminates controls as a factor. And again, you're being intentionally dishonest trying to compare the use of the right tool to improve the translation of what you want to in-game action, to that of using automation to achieve actions physically impossible otherwise (your modded turbo controller). No. adapt or die. It doesn't matter tbh. ccp is not stupid. They will nerf KB/M users and you will still get worked. because this is a console game and ccp will not give you an easy win. "adapt or die", it's funny how you say that and then refuse to adapt yourself... "but its a console game", yeah, and CCP have said from very early on there would be KB/M support, so yeah, adapt or die... I have a fragnstien that I used to use all the time. im not a vag though. I don't need an unfair advantage kill people on a console game. Just so you know no one is going to adapt to the point of buying a mouse. They will simply delete the game off their PS3. You obviously don't care about the future of dust. You just want your precious K/BM because you have no gun game. KB/M will be nerfed and you will still be a scrub either way. So yeah adapt or die scrub.
Sounds good, nice knowing ya! o/
Using ****** controls when you don't have to makes you so much more leet! |
Geirskoegul
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Posted - 2012.07.16 00:02:00 -
[32] - Quote
Aka-ahn wrote:I do care about Dust, but I also care about having a not-****** control scheme going, FPS' was designed for KB/M and that's how they should be played.
Also, I find it funny how you find it necessary to throw random accusations and insults to get your point across.
It's not about should. Anyone's welcome to use the controls they want. They're BETTER played with KB/M, but it's a matter of choice. You've always been able to use a controller for shooters on PC, it's simply that no one really does (though the console generation has been starting to when they branch into PC; at least those ones don't complain when they get killed.) It's a matter of choice. Some players are actually better with a controller than they are with a keyboard and mouse, in spite of the innate superiority of a mouse. That's fine, and they have a right to play their way, just as we do ours. |
Geirskoegul
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Posted - 2012.07.16 00:03:00 -
[33] - Quote
Crimson MoonV wrote:Its not ****** controls you just suck with them so you think they suck.
No, crimson, controllers really do suck for FPS games. Hell, the entirety of the argument against keyboard and mouse support stems from that very fact: controllers suck for shooters, and mice are perfect for them. |
Geirskoegul
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Posted - 2012.07.16 00:54:00 -
[34] - Quote
Deskalkulos Ildigan wrote:with overpriced ultra gamer remix kb/m i meant those "gamer" hardware by razer and co. you know the mice that costs 100+Gé¼ with exchangable weights and ergonomic thing? Oh wait you mentioned it (didn't read till the end when i wrote that)
About the computer thing: i think sony have made their point clear that they don't want to have their console viewed as a computer (if you've been following the ps3 for some time you know what i mean).
About choices: I chose to stand on the KB/M-destroys-Dust514-only-because-Devs-wanted-to-cater-to-the-CoD-PC-Elitists side, so i couldn't agree more with "choices are good".
About Keyboard support: why is there no official Sony KB/M for PS3 available to buy yet (that mini keypad doesn't count)? You can say if i missed something like that.
About the actual possibility to use KB/M on ps3: They added it mostly for communication (writing messages and stuff). If Sony wanted to support KB/M on games they would be actually selling their own mouse and keyboard, as there would be more than enough peoples buying it (me included, i admit that i am a bit of a fanboy when it comes to that).
About the superiority complex: You do realize you are wasting about a good fourth of your text writing about things that could've been summarized in one short sentence?
About your DPI toggle: Do you had to install a driver on your pc so that your mouse works with the dpi toggle function? If the answer is yes you might see a possible problem with that for the PS3.
What you dont get is: the obvious advantage of a console over PC. A levelled base. Hardware is nearly identical for everyone (slight differences when it comes to different PS3 versions), there are mainly two different input methods (DS3 and Move). This is by far the fairest environment you can wish for in competitive playing, adding KB/M adds thousands of additional input methods as every mouse and keyboard works different from another series (i think you know what i mean). I highly doubt that it will be possible to make every kb/m combo function properly with ps3.
What i have done that you probably haven't: I have played a fps (UT 3) on PS3 using KB/M, lets just say KB/M hands down lost to DS3, it was sluggish as hell.
Oh i should probably add, that i also play UT 3 on PC using KB/M (obviously), and that i do play fps on pc quite frequently - just to prevent you from thinking i am just a ps3 kiddie. like i said i chose to support anti kb/m (also because of my terrible KB/M UT3 PS3 experience) for Dust514, even though it is useless since already announced.
Edit:
About the ignorance: Weell lets say i wanted to prevent having to write an extremely long post when i could basically summarize it in 3 - 4 sentences decorated with a little cussing (the later it gets the more i like cussing).
I'd be a little more careful with calling others ignorant-calling others ignorant might be interpreted as a sign of ignorance itself, add philosophy and you can't even use your reality statement, as every person have their own "reality" which just don't match with everyone elses.
You're right, razer crap is greatly overpriced crap, mostly catering to and depending on the WoWtards that will by anything that claims it's for WoW.
As to it being computer, this is largely legal posturing due to the FUBAR US patent and copyright system. US courts ruled that jailbreaking an iPhone / rooting an Android phone is perfectly legal fair use (they're both computers, by the way). Sony successfully bullied Geohotz for doing the same thing, only to a PS3. Just calling a device something else gains you powers and protections, or '"new" patents on the unpatentable (like software itself, which is not statutory subject matter, but that's another story). if they admit that the PS3 is the computer it is, they likely couldn't have gone after Geohotz, since installing your own OS on a computer is very clearly fair use of the hardware you bought.
Regarding choice, at the end of the day, you can choose to think whatwever you like, just as you can choose to use inferior controls. Choices are absolutely good, because then no one is forced to use controls they don't want to, and we can let things fall down to skill. Your choice and opinion, however, don't change the facts. They chose to support keyboard and mouse because they realize that choice is good. By allowing players to choose their controls, they allow everyone to play how they want, and not be limited by inferior controls or ones they're unfamiliar with. Choice lets everyone win, disallowing the choice means only controller users win and you guarantee that your mouse users leave as soon as PlanetSide 2 launches; the console gamers will typically leave as soon as the next big thing comes out either way. (I had a lot more for this originally, I can't recall exactly how I phrased it, as it's almost 0300).
Did you mean this keyboard? http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-MediaBoard-Bluetooth-Wireless-PlayStation-3/dp/B003UWKQFY Sony allows logitech to market it specifically for the PS3. As to Sony making their own, and just that crappy gimick of an attachment, there wouldn't be much point, as there's not much money in it for them. Why would you spend a bunch of money when you can spend US$20 for a wireless keyboard or US$5 for a wired one? There's simply no market reason to release an official one when they can let other companies handle it, as has been done here. Sony also doesn't make keyboards, that
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Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.16 00:54:00 -
[35] - Quote
They allow the support, just as they did on the PS2, for anything the developer wishes to use it for. UT99, a PS2 launch title, used it for gameplay and it worked great. Armored Core used it for designing decals for your mech. Red Faction 2 used it for gameplay. PS3 has it for UT3 for gameplay. FFXI also had full support on both PS2 and PS3 9and even 360.) Sony also markets remote play features unique to their VAIO laptops, such as using the keyboard remotely with the PS3 (in any context; it shows up like any other keyboard to the system).
It's not a complex, I'm just better than you (sorry for explaining my points in detail; shall I stick to simple "lolumads" from now on?)
Regarding the DPI toggle, it's part of the mouse's hardware. It handles the precision of its outputs. Turn up the DPI, it sends more "units" moved relative to the same distance you move the mouse. Turn it down and it sends fewer, allowing for greater precision. This is before inputs are sent from the mouse to the device it's connected to. It'll work on PS3 (or anything else you plug it into).
And I fully get what you THINK about consoles. It does eliminate system specs, and tweaking graphics settings for an advantage (turning off foliage to get rid of concealment, tweaking gamma to make cloakers in planetside stand out like neon signs). What it does not is provide a level playing field, unless you're just as good with a controller as you are with a mouse. This is simply not the case. It only makes it level for other controller users, and it puts mouse users at a massive disadvantage, as I said, spending most of our effort compensating for ****** controls. If you support both, you DO get a level playing field, as everyone will be using the controls they're best with. The mouse will be the tie-breaker, but you have to actually have everything else be evenly matched first for that to matter. There's nothing level about forcing an entire (and significant) section of your player base to use controls that suck and they're not as skilled with.
As to your "thousands of combos" comment, that makes no sense whatsoever, lol. Drivers for keyboards and mice are about as generic as things get, and most of its handled by the PS3 at the system level. All CCP has to do is slap in a sensitivity slider, which just determines how many "units" of movement the mouse sends to it correlate to how many "units" of movement in the game. If one works, they'll all work. The only time you (used to) run into issues was with single-dongle wireless combos, like logitech's DiNovo. On the PS2 it would only use the main keyboard, not the mouse or separate number pad. All three parts work just fine on the PS3, though. Please trust me on this, I've been taking apart computers for more than two decades now.
I haven't played UT3 on the PS3, so I can't comment there, but it certainly sounds like poor implementation. It worked just fine on FFXI, UT99, and Red Faction 2. Couldn't say what went wrong with UT3 other than perhaps poor configuration on the part of the devs, or improper sensitivity settings on your part (or just a bad surface for the mouse.)
And I've played plenty of console shooters, though not nearly as long as I would have if they had proper controls. That's the thing of it, if you force me to use ****** controls, I'm only going to stick around long enough to see the story, maybe muck about a little with multiplayer, then I'm out the second a new good game comes out. Give me good controls so I'm not living in constant frustration with fighting against them and I'm more inclined to stick around if the game is good. No matter how good it is, though, the instant one comes out that's even half as good, but actually has good controls (KB/M), that's where I'll be headed. Why would I keep playing a game that is infuriating due to ****** controls? We've already seen the complaints about control handling as it is, now picture that all day, every day, on the final product. That's what it's like trying to use a controller for an FPS, because they're simply not suited for it.
To your edit (which apparently was made while I was typing), flowerly language is all well and good, but you're diverting from the issue at hand. Perception is reality has no place in this discussion, as it's not a philosophical one.
PS
Sorry for the delayed post, I had just finished typing (luckily this second post was in notepad, since I maxed out the first post) and it nuked it and the draft with just your quote overwrote the draft with the first post in it. I've tried to reassemble it as best I can. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.16 20:11:00 -
[36] - Quote
Brick Schitthawse wrote:This has been an interesting read of arguments, counter arguments and so forth. And I'll wade in here as well. I think the addition of KB/M will stop most PS3 players who have spent the better part of 15-20 years playing their favoured console. However there are two issues issue that occur - how the KB/M interfaces with the PS3 and the big advantage that KB/M has over Controllers. Point 1: KB/M doesn't translate too well to consoles since the console has to translate the KM/B movements into analogue stick inputs in order for the PS3 to understand the movements which can result in slower, jerkier movements and yet, even with this, KM/B still allows a good player to be better than a good controller player. Point 2: PC users'll probably label me as a whiny PS3 console fanboy who needs to adapt or die, but facts show that KB/M users absolutely crush controller users. here is something from http://www.tomshardware.com, while talking about Xbox, the same applies to PS3. Quote:"There was a project that got killed at Microsoft. This project was designed to allow console gamers and PC gamers to interact and battle over a connected environment," Sood wrote on his personal blog. "I've heard from reliable sources that during the development they brought together the best console gamers to play mediocre PC gamers at the same game... and guess what happened? They pitted console gamers with their 'console' controller, against PC gamers with their keyboard and mouse."
The results shouldn't be too surprising.
"The console players got destroyed every time," Sood added. "So much so that it would be embarrassing to the XBOX team in general had Microsoft launched this initiative." This is exactly what will happen once KM/B support is given to DUST514. You'll get many PC gamers here, but very few actually PS3 players, which really defeats the purpose of why CCP brought DUST to consoles - to not take away from their PC market in EVE. I understand that many PC guys, brought a PS3 solely to play DUST and now complain that they can 't do as well, but you need to remember this game was designed, build and developed solely for the PS3 and it's controllers, not for PC and KB/M. your regular joe who wants to play DUST, won't because it's not enjoyable being slaughtered game after game after game, by a majority, since that's what it'll be, who have a massive advantage. I believe that this is not what CCP wants for this game. If they wanted to design a PC FPS that's what CCP would have done, but this is a Console game. PC = KB/M; Console = Controller.
This is wrong on several points.
First off, no translation is required whatsoever. The PS3 natively supports keyboards and mice, and any game may support keyboards and mice natively. Case in point: UT99 on PS2, Red Faction 2 on PS2, UT3 on PS3, FFXI on PS2 + PS3 + 360.
Secondly, facts show that while mice are absolutely superior to controllers for FPS games, the actual difference is negligible when compared to player skill. A ****** player is still a ****** player, even with a mouse. A great player is still a great player, even with a controller. You only really see issues arise when you're talking about a mouse user going 1v1 with a controller user, when they're both of equal skill. This scenario rarely arises, as usually someone spots the other first, has a better loadout, etc. In the end, any number of factors play a larger role in deciding the outcome, and the net result of allowing mice is simply that you're eliminating ****** controls a player is unfamiliar with from the "who wins" math.
The reason the cross-gaming concept was killed is because 1) no one on PC was stupid enough to pay MSFT to use their own NIC like the sheep on 360 are, 2) it's be a bit of a PR fiasco to have PC players playing for free against console gamers. 3) The only game that even supported it was absolute rubbish. That said, the superiority of mice is the reason MSFT bans their support entirely (though making an exception for FFXI). PS3 has no such restriction, nor did the PS2, and it didn't harm any of the games in question. Also note, "reliable sources" is code speak for "unsubstantiated rumor."
At the end of the day, no one will know whether they were killed by a mouse or a controller, nor will it matter, since in most situations it'll be the people that are playing better that win, not the one using the superior controls. Oh, sure, we'll have plenty of console kiddies blaming mice for all their deaths, but it won't be the case. You can blame sunspots with about as much reliability, as in all likelihood, the other guy was simply either better or luckier. The odds that you both were equally equipped, spotted each other on a flat plain at the same instant in time, and happened to be equally skilled with your control schemes, is rather low. In all likelihood, someone saw the other first, and killed him first.
EriktheHeartless wrote:Just use the equipment that the system is designed to use.hey eve people i know you want kb/m support but us MAGgots have a saying you may have never heard before
ADAPT OR DIE !!!!
I fully intend to: the PS3 is designed to natively support keyboards and mice, devs just have to use the API calls in their programs :)
As to the rest of you phearing the mice: Your tears fuel me: E [ , -+ ' -+ / , ] F |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.16 20:12:00 -
[37] - Quote
And while you're at it:
.
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............,/-»..//
............/....//
....../-¦-»/'...'/-¦-»-».`-+-+
../'/.../..../.........^-¿-»\
.('(...-¦Primary........|
.\..........This.'....../
..'\'...\.......... _.-+-¦
.....\..............(
(wow, this forum is really stubborn about spacing ascii art correctly...) |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.16 20:35:00 -
[38] - Quote
EnIgMa99 wrote:Controller. The most i get from this thread is that ppl with the gamepad want to keep everyone at the steeper learning curve with a analog controller, I pwn with both and dont care.
You're mistaking "compensating for inferior controls ill-suited to the game in question" for a learning curve. A common mistake in this thread. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
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Posted - 2012.07.17 15:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
Azura dark wrote:actually kb/m is easier as you have more control, console fps is harder as you have to fight the pad aswell as your openent making fps more fun and not easy. yes i have a gaming pc. console is harder and more fun.
The fun part is a matter purely of opinion; this is irrefutable.
As to "harder," yes, it's harder in the same way that trying to hammer in a nail with a screwdriver, or screw a screw with a hammer, is harder than using a screwdriver for the screw and a hammer for the nail. The point is that it's not harder in the sense of challenge and complexity (the good kind of hard), it's harder in the sense of compensating for tools that simply don't do the job well. Good on the (willing) controller users for pulling it off, they're fighting with a disadvantage, but it doesn't warrant the point of pride they make it out to be.
Something I like to do in EVE is run level 4 missions using an assault frigate. It's challenging and fun, it takes a bit of skill, and it's excellent practice for manual piloting (anyone that wants to learn how to manage angular velocity and learn to speed tank well should try it.) That said, it's certainly not a point of pride being able to do it. It's absolutely not the right tool for the job, it's slow, it's poorly-suited to it, but it can be done, and I do it anyway.
I would compare using a controller when a keyboard and mouse is an option to that above scenario (to an extent; as myself and others have noted, some people are just better with controllers than they are with a mouse). They're fighting an uphill battle, and good on them for persevering in spite of it. At the end of the day, though, it's not a point of additional pride, because someone equally skilled with a controller, against someone equally skilled with a mouse, are both just as good as the other, the only difference is that the one with the mouse has an edge. Just using a controller, and managing to hold your own doesn't mean you're a better player at all, it simply means you're still a good player in spite of inferior controls. |
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