Yes, they now have 2m splash.

If you're trying to kill anything other than a vehicle with a nose mounted railgun, you're doing it wrong.

Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has them. However, yours is a gaping abyss spewing forth an unending stream of diarrhea.

*Looks at breach flaylock pistol*

"Its okay boy, your time will come."

"What? Cleaned up? lets focus on getting you dirty first"

why are you talking about logis?

if you dont care if people will use the RR in cqc or not, why do you care at all?

honestly i use the RR in cqc now just fine. i just had to get used to it. the charge up is the issue for me. a kick reduction is simply a quality of life improvement

That said, I'm not necessarily against the proposed changes but I am concerned about the opinions of vehicles pilots who believe that their ISK investment entitles them to farm opponents. Your ISK investment allows you to affect the outcome of the battle by giving you access to parts of the map that no one else can use, by giving you greater mobility and by giving you invulnerability to small arms fire. It should not give you a disproportionately higher KDR by virtue of spending more isk.

Just wanted to chime in on the Swarms vs ADS.

As a player who was around in 1.6 and 1.7, I share Soraya's concern about OP vehicles that farm infantry at a rate of 25-50 KDR. Anyone who played infantry back then and who tried to fulfill the AV role knows how frustrating and futile it was.

Maybe the pendulum went too far when swarms were buffed and vehicles were nerfed, but recent releases have (IMO) struck a pretty good balance where a single AV player can not necessarily kill a pilot but can at least drive them away for a minute or two. I'm not sure why this is not considered as being balanced.

As for ADS specifically, it's important to keep in mind the following when trying to balance them.

1. Swarms are the only real viable option for ADS suppression.
- A forge gun can be used with partial success at short range, (75 meters or less) but is useless at a distance. Add the fact that equiping a forge gun makes an AV player canon foder to infantry and the returns quickly become untenable.
- The plasma canon is very difficult to use even at a close range against dropships.

2. Denying access to an area is not equivalent to killing. I actually think that the ability to deny access to specific area to a vehicle by one AV player is perfectly balanced. This protects pilots from a huge ISK loss and protects infantry from being farmed. It is much more balanced than requiring multiple players to deal with a single player using a vehicle.

3. The primary critetria to determine balance needs to be KDR. It cannot be ISK as ISK has no bearing on the outcome of a specific game.

That said, I'm not necessarily against the proposed changes but I am concerned about the opinions of vehicles pilots who believe that their ISK investment entitles them to farm opponents. Your ISK investment allows you to affect the outcome of the battle by giving you access to parts of the map that no one else can use, by giving you greater mobility and by giving you invulnerability to small arms fire. It should not give you a disproportionately higher KDR by virtue of spending more isk.

The WP for damage is pretty much broken since the last update, hardeners take the damage down so far that you basically dont do enough damage to trigger WP rewards (though you still get plenty of points killing throw away gorgons and vipers, oh boy).

Interesting changes...... still not really enough to make HAV real tanks.

Will there ever be a time in this game when the round I fire from my HAV turret explodes with full AoE effect?

I believe all.

Flaylocks too.

As a player who was around in 1.6 and 1.7, I share Soraya's concern about OP vehicles that farm infantry at a rate of 25-50 KDR. Anyone who played infantry back then and who tried to fulfill the AV role knows how frustrating and futile it was.

Maybe the pendulum went too far when swarms were buffed and vehicles were nerfed, but recent releases have (IMO) struck a pretty good balance where a single AV player can not necessarily kill a pilot but can at least drive them away for a minute or two. I'm not sure why this is not considered as being balanced.

As for ADS specifically, it's important to keep in mind the following when trying to balance them.

1. Swarms are the only real viable option for ADS suppression.
- A forge gun can be used with partial success at short range, (75 meters or less) but is useless at a distance. Add the fact that equiping a forge gun makes an AV player canon foder to infantry and the returns quickly become untenable.
- The plasma canon is very difficult to use even at a close range against dropships.

2. Denying access to an area is not equivalent to killing. I actually think that the ability to deny access to specific area to a vehicle by one AV player is perfectly balanced. This protects pilots from a huge ISK loss and protects infantry from being farmed. It is much more balanced than requiring multiple players to deal with a single player using a vehicle.

3. The primary critetria to determine balance needs to be KDR. It cannot be ISK as ISK has no bearing on the outcome of a specific game.

That said, I'm not necessarily against the proposed changes but I am concerned about the opinions of vehicles pilots who believe that their ISK investment entitles them to farm opponents. Your ISK investment allows you to affect the outcome of the battle by giving you access to parts of the map that no one else can use, by giving you greater mobility and by giving you invulnerability to small arms fire. It should not give you a disproportionately higher KDR by virtue of spending more isk.

Welp, the ADS argument just hit full Tier 7 on the argument pyramid.

Quit the name calling and address real issues:

-ADS can't mitigate swarm damage through skilled flying (unlike forges)

-Swarms take little player-skill to use effectively (unlike forges forges)

-Rendering + small, indistinguishable targets assures swarms always get the first hit (unless taken by surprise and a lucky guess from the ADS)

-Invisible swarms make retaliation in an ADS impossible and making adjustments in flying space ambiguous.

-Minmando players who skilled it for the swarm bonus are getting screwed over; there's no explicit reason why the bonus changed suits other than lore (which is pretty poor if you ask me, see Min scouts and NKs)

-A single swarmer will have trouble killing a properly flown and fitted ADS (aside: this is mainly due to ADS flying away, not inability to damage)

-Multiple AV stacks much more effectively than multiple ADSs/ vehicles

Etc.

100? How about we look at some real figures. Pulling numbers from your bottom is useless. Dropships in this build need to maintain a 43.2 kdr compared to the equivilent SP based Swarm with a 3.6 KDR. KDR alone as a balance tool is for people who have a pre-school understanding of balance tools

Off-topic, but I want to chime in on the idea of "area-denial" to AV players.

Denying an area means stopping the enemy from operating in that area by posing a threat if they try. That does NOT only mean that you have killed him; killing him is certainly one way to deny him, but by no means the only way.

So when we talk about forge guns denying an area in a 300m bubble, we do not mean that we are always killed if we enter that 300m bubble, only that we are denied doing what we do in that area. We cannot kill infantry or land to drop links if there is a forge gun present, because both of those require us to be relatively still, and that makes us the perfect target for a forge gun. We are denied the area not because of our destruction, but because doing anything other than dodginf forge gun shots will result in our death. Whether we successfully dodge the forge shots or not, the forger has denied us the area, because his team can move and act as though we are not even there.

AV should not be a guaranteed kill against any vehicle. What it should be is something that makes the vehicle stop what it's doing (laying links, killing infantry) and be forced to deal with the threat (by retreating, engaging the AV directly, etc.) Rather than continue with its original mission.

The threat of death does need to be there: that's why armor tanks were OP, because they could basically ignore AV and continue to do whatever they were doing. But death should not be a forgone conclusion just because you pulled out AV.

186Posted: 2014.10.28 21:27 | Report
2

KDR is not really relevant to balance. There are two goals in a match.

Goal 1 is to win.

Goal 2 is to make isk.

Most matches come down to MCC, rather than clones. In such cases KDR is pretty irrelevant. Kills and warpoints are much more accurate indicators of someone's value in the battle. Though there is no perfect measure for contribution to Goal 1. KDR isn't often one though.

Goal 2 is defined by isk loss vs isk gain. Obviously if your gear costs more, you should die less. Otherwise how does it help you with goal 2?

Risk vs reward means that if your reward is the same (reward being isk, not K/D), your risk should be the same. So you should on average lose the same amount of isk per match. If you gear costs 5 times more you should die 5 times less.

Not in new eden. If your gear costs 5 times more, you should only die 20% less. if your gear costs 100x more, you should only die half as much. Isk only gives increments, not leaps.

We'll see.

In the current setup, I am enjoying the Python as it is.. pay attention to your HP and AV fire and you can be pretty much invincible until the gank happens, I don't pity too many saying AD underperform.. when the reality is, performance is based on what you do with it.. Avoid AV and fly smart, you'll do well.. fly into an AV hotzone.. goodbye ADS..

Why do you +1 all of my posts and then insult me in your posts?

Like i said before if av is = to vehicles, then make them cost the same & make us spawn into the driver seat with no dropsuit. If my vehicle dies, i'll go with it, no problem. But make me lose the same isk instead of millions more. you can nerf the power to equilize them as well at that point. But if proto stomping is op because of all the isk spent why is my isk & sp investment valueless. My prediction of the new hotfix is the majority of tanks will disappear. Except a few redline tanks. Tanks will only be good for losing $ with all the new av damage on the field. I plan on punching and knifing a few tanks myself

Simply increasing the weak spot on HAVs considerably will allow dedicated AV and other vehicles to use positioning, speed and skill to heavily change the outcome of each encounter without having an effect on Dropships.

Locus Grenade damage progression made Standard and Advanced grenades fairly useless, so we are going to have the same damage for all tiears, with increasing radius per tier. We are also fixing the Packed Locus and buffing the Fused Grenades considerably.